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Palmageddon Aftermath Photo Thread

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Collectorpalms

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NBTX11
37 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Here's a very rough and unscientific map of what I observed along the 290, I-10, and 610 corridors in Houston driving at 70-80 mph.

I did my best to mostly look at extremely thin trunk as pure as possible robusta with trunk height >20 feet. This map also excludes stunted/abandoned/wild and overtrimmed robusta popular at car dealerships and abandoned parking lots particularly along I-10 and focuses more on residential and slightly more maintained commercial spaces. Kill rate among robusta in already poor health was much higher. 

Death rate near town along I-10 and I-45 interchanges is surprisingly low, pretty much every robusta visible from the freeway had signs of life.

A mass planting of tall robusta on the south side of an apartment complex on I-10 just west of BW 8 had near 100% survivial. All/nearly all of the Phoenix dactyfilera mass planted along this section of town are pushing green. 

Most of the Washingtonia (mostly robusta and robusta dominant hybrids) lining I-45 as it heads towards 610 are pushing green. These palms fend for themselves and looked like they've never/rarely been trimmed let alone irrigated or fertilized.  None of the Livistona decora mixed in are showing any signs of life. The Butia are of course fine and more or less undamaged. 

robustamap.jpg.9d84a29d44af31e4d2199eb114773267.jpg

 

I don't know what it's going to end up being for San Antonio, but by all current appearances, it's going to be way less than this.  In New Braunfels, I am now predicting less than 10 or 15 percent recovery.  Only sporadic Robusta will recover.  Most will die. 

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Collectorpalms

How does it go from nearly 90 percent survival in Rice Village at 14F to only 10 percent Survival at 12F near Katy.

i was given the impression they were 85 percent surviving for all of Houston.

148F6DC5-310C-49E0-AB43-A8364CDC0EFC.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Xenon
9 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

How does it go from nearly 90 percent survival in Rice Village at 14F to only 10 percent Survival at 12F.

i was given the impression they were 85 percent surviving for all of Houston.

85 percent for 610 and points to the south and southeast of there sure but not all of Houston Area. 

Didn't see anything alive at all in Cypress and Katy around SH 99 looks just a little bit better. Big jump in survival towards BW 8 

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Xenon

Some pics from west 610, almost every robusta is showing some sign of life. The extremely thin trunked "pure" looking ones are the slowest to move. Some of the robusta leaning hybrids already have a full leaf or two.  Almost all Livistona chinensis have green. 20210409_164609.thumb.jpg.f9538cf469204c3cd210d9f2d5d42092.jpg

20210409_164642.thumb.jpg.8eb88e33d723633e519c4a263e661979.jpg

 

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20210409_165016.thumb.jpg.0c5925eabc2daa89b352d5f11ad62fbb.jpg20210409_164858.thumb.jpg.143142c173e34288d410e7d459d004c1.jpg

Edited by Xenon

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Xenon

Believe it or not 7/8 of these robusta are pushing green (hard to tell from photo). In person it's a lot more obvious what is trying to live and what is seemingly dead/hasn't moved at all. 

20210409_170125.thumb.jpg.1493f96a1cc0836043961f5c426519be.jpg

20210409_165249.thumb.jpg.c3d759272b33b2e99bf7585a7c681d70.jpg

these bromeliads (Aechmea sp?) have some green at the base on the south side of the tree 

20210409_165306.thumb.jpg.54b5a191b6058eb5c0040958b85c4376.jpg20210409_165342.thumb.jpg.630bc62808ac1257f6d75225d28906e0.jpg

Edited by Xenon
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Xenon

The Livistona decora on I-45 aren't showing any signs of life. Most of the Washingtonia are pushing green

20210409_174737.thumb.jpg.7e83ba60dcb92e0b3678fbd20522f538.jpg

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20210409_175423.thumb.jpg.d17ff8a9b4142a70a443e6ad57569cf1.jpg

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Xenon

1/6 protected triangles has a partially green leaf. The rest have stiff spears

 

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20210409_170731.thumb.jpg.62f1b3671c094b46ac90501b7f2fa34f.jpg

Some of the washy weeds performed really well 

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20210409_165715.thumb.jpg.606dcd39dce050b3934aed9a59716005.jpg

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Collectorpalms

Washy volunteer after 5* at my place 

B1B79BD3-B091-4DCA-9C20-6B197E9489CF.jpeg

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amh

The washingtonias have incredible vigor, I remember seeing them grow through pavement down off of Iowa street in San Antonio.

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PricklyPearSATC

This Lacebark Elm had it's bark stripped due to the freeze.  I also saw a picture of an unknown tree in San Antonio that had the same presentation.  No previous evidence of hypoxylon canker or borers etc.  No fungal growth.  Looks like the bark was removed with a knife.  This tree is hardy to - 30 F (zone 4a)  
These trees leaf out early.  Another Lacebark Elm near this one is fine. 

171680745_4049749291754115_6936785636757828416_n.jpg

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Edited by PricklyPearSATC
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amh
5 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

This Lacebark Elm had it's bark stripped due to the freeze.  I also saw a picture of an unknown tree in San Antonio that had the same presentation.  No previous evidence of hypoxylon canker or borers etc.  No fungal growth.  Looks like the bark was removed with a knife.  This tree is hardy to - 30 F (zone 4a)  
These trees leaf out early.  Another Lacebark Elm near this one is fine. 

Weird, I wonder if it was exposed to herbicide or maybe lightning strike.

Guilbeau and mystic park area?

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PricklyPearSATC
15 minutes ago, amh said:

Weird, I wonder if it was exposed to herbicide or maybe lightning strike.

Guilbeau and mystic park area?

You got the address right...
 

I saw a tree in the same shape on a FB post.  It was at a resident...Same exact presentation.   It was too blurry to tell what kind of tree and someone just snapped the pic while they were walking around the neighborhood.  Image taken on April 7th.  Person said there was another tree like it near by. 

169871027_4165251950193608_7542066679326139300_n.jpg

Edited by PricklyPearSATC

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amh
6 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

You got the address right...
 

I saw a tree in the same shape on a FB post.  It was at a resident...Same exact presentation.   It was too blurry to tell what kind of tree and someone just snapped the pic while they were walking around the neighborhood

169871027_4165251950193608_7542066679326139300_n.jpg

Once again, weird. Might be cotton root rot; I dont know.

Any other plants dying in the vicinity?

Edited by amh

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PricklyPearSATC
Just now, amh said:

Once again, weird. Might be cotton root rot; I dont know.

Nope...Not cotton root rot. 
My boxwood also did this.  But it's a little boxwood. so it's not very dramatic.  The boxwood was not improving but was getting worse.  I checked the wood and the bark had split off.  There is growth from the base and there is another stem (not in the picture that didn't split)...

169274364_133244292088831_6141145617639892552_n.jpg

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amh

The bark sloughing off like that is usually from sudden death.

I'm stumped.

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PricklyPearSATC
1 minute ago, amh said:

The bark sloughing off like that is usually from sudden death.

I'm stumped.

Our county agent said the freeze was causing bark to split.  Plants were actively growing and had alot of water in their tissues at the time.

A few of my plumbagos split open on Feb 14th.  It created a "frost weed" thing. 

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169918058_801365387155304_3042912221022000335_n.jpg

169138206_504393577609490_4683742137022033463_n.jpg

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amh
34 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

Our county agent said the freeze was causing bark to split.  Plants were actively growing and had alot of water in their tissues at the time.

A few of my plumbagos split open on Feb 14th.  It created a "frost weed" thing. 

Makes sense, but I dont think it would apply to the elms. I could be wrong.

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mulungu
4 hours ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

Nope...Not cotton root rot. 
My boxwood also did this.  But it's a little boxwood. so it's not very dramatic.  The boxwood was not improving but was getting worse.  I checked the wood and the bark had split off.  There is growth from the base and there is another stem (not in the picture that didn't split)...

 

 

Ugh, PricklyPearSATC, I feel your pain.  Had the same thing happen to a little South African shrub I was growing, Mundulea sericea.  It was almost as if the ice exploded or prised apart the bark like a hydraulic spreader.  Here it is, caught in the act.

 

2-19-21

image.thumb.png.f47553e47c6eca3e192e7bfc7aa6a991.png

 

 

2-20-21

image.thumb.png.22ac8105e93963f63211671d41391abb.png

 

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NBTX11

My Texas Ash trees were actively growing and putting out leaves when the freeze hit. They have yet to recover and put out leaves other than a few sporadic ones. 

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Keys6505
16 hours ago, Xenon said:

1/6 protected triangles has a partially green leaf. The rest have stiff spears

Where are the triangles located?

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Xenon
24 minutes ago, Keys6505 said:

Where are the triangles located?

Near Montrose in W 610 Loop

Edited by Xenon

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NBTX11

Near 100 percent survival rate on Canary Island Date Palms in New Braunfels. Virtually all had large portions of green showing when I checked. A small handful of thicker trunked Washingtonia Hybrids had green. As well as most Filifera. No movement on Robusta yet, and I doubt there will be any. 

DCE36DE8-C90E-4A72-9CF7-0488D60D0371.png

Edited by NBTX11
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sipalms
4 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Near 100 percent survival rate on Canary Island Date Palms in New Braunfels. Virtually all had large portions of green showing when I checked. A small handful of thicker trunked Washingtonia Hybrids had green. As well as most Filifera. No movement on Robusta yet, and I doubt there will be any. 

DCE36DE8-C90E-4A72-9CF7-0488D60D0371.png

I'm 100% convinced, looking at these continuing survival photos, that the key to recovery is that this occured in Texas, where temperatures quickly rebounded to growing temps (or more), as opposed to cooler areas further from the equator.

I mean the amount of green there in just two months after a traumatic freeze is amazing!

If a serious freeze like this, or even no where near as bad, happened in somewhere much colder/damper/higher latitude e.g. UK, the recovery would be totally different or impossible. Given that the palm would have to wait months for serious consistent growing temps and in the meantime deal with more cold and damp, would likely mean the palm would succumb to rot or disease or infestations.

At the time of the freeze I remember looking at New Braunfels thinking it'd be impossible for something like CIDP to recover. But look now, thanks to months of comparatively warm winter temps, the palm is well on the way to recovery. Bravo.

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Collectorpalms

... what you see on here is just the tip of the ice berg. 90 percent of palms still appear dead in my City.

it helped that this was a late freeze and that temperatures rebounded to above normal. 

 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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UK_Palms
6 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

Near 100 percent survival rate on Canary Island Date Palms in New Braunfels. Virtually all had large portions of green showing when I checked. A small handful of thicker trunked Washingtonia Hybrids had green. As well as most Filifera. No movement on Robusta yet, and I doubt there will be any. 

DCE36DE8-C90E-4A72-9CF7-0488D60D0371.png

 

Have the smaller CIDP's come back as well, or just the bigger trunking ones? My theory is that the size of the trunk, in terms of thickness, is what helps CIDP's survive severe cold. The central growing bud is going to be well insulated in a palm of that size and the central bud probably won't freeze. The same would apply for fat trunked Filifera's as well, hence why the thin trunked Robusta's are so susceptible to freezes. That central growing bud has no proper insulation with Robusta's. Likewise, small CIDP and even Filifera aren't going to have much protection either. Mature CIDP's however have a lot of thickness and protection. 

 

2 hours ago, sipalms said:

I'm 100% convinced, looking at these continuing survival photos, that the key to recovery is that this occured in Texas, where temperatures quickly rebounded to growing temps (or more), as opposed to cooler areas further from the equator.

I mean the amount of green there in just two months after a traumatic freeze is amazing!

If a serious freeze like this, or even no where near as bad, happened in somewhere much colder/damper/higher latitude e.g. UK, the recovery would be totally different or impossible. Given that the palm would have to wait months for serious consistent growing temps and in the meantime deal with more cold and damp, would likely mean the palm would succumb to rot or disease or infestations.

At the time of the freeze I remember looking at New Braunfels thinking it'd be impossible for something like CIDP to recover. But look now, thanks to months of comparatively warm winter temps, the palm is well on the way to recovery. Bravo.

 

Temperatures quickly rebounded back to growing temps in Dallas as well with +80F a week after the freeze. But that didn't stop near 100% of the CIDP's being wiped out in DFW. Maybe there is a surviving CIDP there, which came through the -18C, but I am yet to see one. So quick winter/spring warmup becomes irrelevant if the absolute low drops down far enough.

The fat trunked CIDP's survived in New Braunfel and San Antonio because they didn't drop below -12C, maybe -13C and only had about 120 hours below freezing. Although that was probably right around the freeze threshold for survival. DFW on the other hand went down to -18C and was below freezing for about 250 hours. So no amount of winter/spring warmup is going to resurrect CIDP's from those sort of low temperatures and the cold duration that was seen in DFW. Like I said, New Braunfels was probably around the CIDP threshold for survival. 

It's pointless drawing up a freeze comparison with the UK as we are talking about continental vs oceanic climate. The coldest that the big CIDP's in London and the south coast of England have ever endured is about -6C and perhaps 72 hours below freezing. However at their current sizes, I am confident the mature specimens with fat trunks would probably survive -12C and 150 hours below freezing here, possibly more, not that it will ever get that cold in those places. The central growing bud will be heavily protected now in those big specimens.

You're right about us not getting the same degree of winter/spring warm-up for accelerated growth and recovery, but at the same time we don't have the risk of polar vortex's and extreme lows coming across a continental landmass, since we are an island off the Atlantic. Therefore the big ones in London and the south coast won't get defoliated. So it's all swings and roundabouts. It's very dry in spring here as well and not humid at all, so rot and disease are not going to be as much of a problem as somewhere like Texas, where it is hot, humid and damp in spring.

Mind you, I am also currently having my coldest start to an April on record here. It's extremely dry here, but the temperatures feel more like February...

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NBTX11

These CIDP are in New Braunfels. Sorry for the poor photo quality. Notice how they are 3-4 times larger than the houses. These palms pre-date 1980 and probably go back to the 60’s or 70’s (at least). It got to 6F in 1989, although that was a much shorter lived freeze than 2021. It warms up fast here. We were at about 35 or 36C recently.  I did see some smaller cidp surviving.  Essentially any palm with any size to it survived  I think I saw one palm without clear green being pushed out of maybe 15 or 20 I looked at ( and that one may have been alive also, it hadn’t been trimmed back yet).

4A3D423E-871B-49C4-AE37-9DD432E72A03.jpeg

Edited by NBTX11
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UK_Palms

@NBTX11 How many hours were you below freezing for in total? I'm trying to work out whether the absolute low, or the duration, is more important for survival. Obviously both factors play a part in survival. However many hours it was, the CIDP's in your area have clearly come through it and survived.

The inland regions in the south coast of France lost most of their CIDP's from 10F and about 100 hours below freezing a few years back. They were totally defoliated and never grew back. Yet it seems you guys were a bit colder than they were during your February freeze. The same with El Paso, where most of the CIDP's were killed off by -13C about a decade ago and they were only below freezing for what... 24-36 hours at most. 

I have also heard of CIDP's in northern Florida being killed outright by 15F and less than 50 hours below freezing.  So there seems to be a lot of contradictory reports about their hardiness threshold and survivability. I don't know how much of the old information is true, or whether CIDP's were presumed dead and removed, but actually still alive? But there are definitely inconsistencies in the reports.

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Xenon
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@NBTX11 How many hours were you below freezing for in total? I'm trying to work out whether the absolute low, or the duration, is more important for survival. Obviously both factors play a part in survival. However many hours it was, the CIDP's in your area have clearly come through it and survived.

The inland regions in the south coast of France lost most of their CIDP's from 10F and about 100 hours below freezing a few years back. They were totally defoliated and never grew back. Yet it seems you guys were a bit colder than they were during your February freeze. The same with El Paso, where most of the CIDP's were killed off by -13C about a decade ago and they were only below freezing for what... 24-36 hours at most. 

I have also heard of CIDP's in northern Florida being killed outright by 15F and less than 50 hours below freezing.  So there seems to be a lot of contradictory reports about their hardiness threshold and survivability. I don't know how much of the old information is true, or whether CIDP's were presumed dead and removed, but actually still alive? But there are definitely inconsistencies in the reports.

There are big CIDP that survived colder freezes (~5F to upper single digits) in the 1980s across the coastal south fom the TX/LA border to coastal Georgia and at least as far north as Charleston 

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NBTX11

This guy planted smartly. CIDP and Sabal Mexicana. Notice the CIDP recovery. This is very typical. 

F0F4BAEA-3A28-4F0D-A0F3-958FC78612FB.jpeg

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NBTX11

Typical Robusta scene. Virtually all pure Robusta are DEAD. We’ve lost 75 percent of local palms, because at least 75 percent of all palms planted are Robusta. 

DAFAC729-75E6-4ED3-A700-1392415AB8CC.jpeg

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NBTX11

Example of the thicker trunked hybrids compared to thinner ones

9595D0D5-888E-4FEC-828A-C923FE70D5E5.jpeg

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NBTX11

Notice how the two Filifera on the edges are recovering fine however the thinner trunked hybrid in the middle is still struggling. 

471D3362-252D-4DB1-9678-722EF12EA23A.jpeg

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NBTX11

Typical Filifera recovery 

ECC74A60-99F0-4B14-A555-C81CA74914D2.jpeg

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NBTX11

Everyone who planted Sabal Palmettos never had a thing to worry about. 

D54319F4-C261-4AF3-AE0F-25E3AF410FAE.jpeg

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NBTX11
2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@NBTX11 How many hours were you below freezing for in total? I'm trying to work out whether the absolute low, or the duration, is more important for survival. Obviously both factors play a part in survival. However many hours it was, the CIDP's in your area have clearly come through it and survived.

The inland regions in the south coast of France lost most of their CIDP's from 10F and about 100 hours below freezing a few years back. They were totally defoliated and never grew back. Yet it seems you guys were a bit colder than they were during your February freeze. The same with El Paso, where most of the CIDP's were killed off by -13C about a decade ago and they were only below freezing for what... 24-36 hours at most. 

I have also heard of CIDP's in northern Florida being killed outright by 15F and less than 50 hours below freezing.  So there seems to be a lot of contradictory reports about their hardiness threshold and survivability. I don't know how much of the old information is true, or whether CIDP's were presumed dead and removed, but actually still alive? But there are definitely inconsistencies in the reports.

I am not sure completely how many hours we spent below freezing, but I can give you a rough estimate.  These are the official highs and lows for the San Antonio Airport on the N. Side north of Loop 410 from Feb 9th to Feb 21st.  I was within a degree of these temps.  There was no heat island effect, everyone was equally cold.  With the possible exception of the Riverwalk, right on the river below street level.

9       79  54
10     54  40  
11     40  33  
12     36  31  
13     32  29  
14     30  13  
15     28   9  
16     26  12  
17     45  24  
18    32  28  
19    46  19  
20    60  26  
21    73  44 

So as you can see, we went below freezing sometime on the 13th and did not break freezing again until late morning on the 17th.  Essentially 4 solid days.  And even on the 13th, it was right at freezing, so nearly 5 consecutive days..

Edited by NBTX11

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Xenon

I see living CIDP in College Station. Most pure Washingtonia filifera and Sabal mexicana are pushing green too

collegestation.JPG.44a30d26d4305d9c0b04a7f87ed1c8b3.JPG

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NBTX11
1 minute ago, Xenon said:

I see living CIDP in College Station. Most pure Washingtonia filifera and Sabal mexicana are pushing green too

 

In New Braunfels, Sabal Mexicana were never not green.  All retained crowns and the centers remained green always.

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Collectorpalms
55 minutes ago, Xenon said:

I see living CIDP in College Station. Most pure Washingtonia filifera and Sabal mexicana are pushing green too

collegestation.JPG.44a30d26d4305d9c0b04a7f87ed1c8b3.JPG

The reality is there is exceptionally few CIDP or Pure Filifera in College Station. They have never been planted at well known establishments, where people can see them.  You have to hunt for them. 

I have them because I was advised what survived the 80s. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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GoatLockerGuns
1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

15     28   9  
16     26  12

I have an ambient temperature sensor on my back porch.  I registered 6F and 9F lows on the 15th and 16th, respectively (NW Bexar County, Approximate Elevation: 1300 feet).  Slightly colder than areas inside the 1604 or I-410 loops at elevations below 1000 feet.

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