Large Majesty Palms north of Jacksonville

[Estlander]

1 hour ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Most of the panhandle is 8B with 9a on the direct coast, 2015 damaged Washingtonia and Phoenix species all over with some in Ft. Walton beach getting 80% foliage loss.  Pre 1989 CIDP go up to Charleston SC on the east coast, while pretty much all of the western panhandle have none.  On another note, are there any in Panama City or Apalachicola? Where is the cutoff?  I know of some in Gainesville and Perry

You can’t compare Destin to Ft Walton Beach. They don’t have water surrounding them. 
There are pre-1980’s CIDP here. The reason you don’t see too many very tall ones at least in Destin, is because there was almost nothing here in the 80’s but a small fishing village. Charleston is a very old and important settlement. 
But then again, I haven’t been to 99.9% of the places/streets here. Who knows what there might be. 

Logic dictates that if you have pre-1980’s CIDP in Gainesville and Perry, then surely Destin would have very tall ones too in abundant numbers had anyone planted them. Gainesville has gotten very cold in the past, not to mention Perry.
Not to mention how cold Charleston has gotten even in modern winters like January 2018. So it’s not a temperature issue. 

And if you’re looking at historical temperature figures about Destin, then you gotta make sure they really were taken there and not on the mainland somewhere and then also applied to Destin as well. 
Houston is a very large, more populous and a much older settlement than Destin. How come there are so few palms there? Are there any extra tall CIDP?

Edited January 28, 2021 by Estlander

[Estlander]

But enough of this! Let’s put historical behind us and see how each of our respective locations do in the modern time winters to come with climate trending towards warmer. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Estlander

[sonoranfans]

I think logically water to the south isnt as protective as water to the east or west when a northern cold intrusion comes down.  The cold coming from the north pushes all warm air to the south by its density but here will be mixing at the east(and west) coast.  So I would expect east coast FL at the beach to be a bit warmer than panhandle florida at the beach.  Almost no air is warmed by water to your south when the wind/weather is coming from the north.  

[mnorell]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I think logically water to the south isnt as protective as water to the east or west when a northern cold intrusion comes down.  The cold coming from the north pushes all warm air to the south by its density but here will be mixing at the east(and west) coast.  So I would expect east coast FL at the beach to be a bit warmer than panhandle florida at the beach.  Almost no air is warmed by water to your south when the wind/weather is coming from the north.  

I agree 100%, though I think even water to the south/west/east (if sufficiently warm) is a small benefit, but only in a still, radiational environment (without cold advection). New Orleans is a perfect example of a city protected by a large body of water to the north (Lake Pontchartrain; and to a lesser extend Lake Maurepas); the caveat being that there is still a "path" for cold to come in and devastate that city, I would imagine that the great advective freezes of the past (e.g., 1962, 1989, when in both instances the temperature hit 11F and all Washingtonias were killed throughout the city) may have been helped along by a more westerly flow over land. In 1989 it was 4F in Natchez, and the 11F about 100 miles away (as the crow flies) in New Orleans doesn't indicate to me any substantial warming over water. Usually in a cold event there may only be 2-3F difference between downtown Natchez and Baton Rouge, but the difference is 10-20F between Natchez and New Orleans. Only the water (and to some extent urbanization) can account for that.

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

2 hours ago, Estlander said:

You can’t compare Destin to Ft Walton Beach. They don’t have water surrounding them. 
There are pre-1980’s CIDP here. The reason you don’t see too many very tall ones at least in Destin, is because there was almost nothing here in the 80’s but a small fishing village. Charleston is a very old and important settlement. 
But then again, I haven’t been to 99.9% of the places/streets here. Who knows what there might be. 

Logic dictates that if you have pre-1980’s CIDP in Gainesville and Perry, then surely Destin would have very tall ones too in abundant numbers had anyone planted them. Gainesville has gotten very cold in the past, not to mention Perry.
Not to mention how cold Charleston has gotten even in modern winters like January 2018. So it’s not a temperature issue. 

And if you’re looking at historical temperature figures about Destin, then you gotta make sure they really were taken there and not on the mainland somewhere and then also applied to Destin as well. 
Houston is a very large, more populous and a much older settlement than Destin. How come there are so few palms there? Are there any extra tall CIDP?

I know Fort Walton beach was inhabited with plenty of hotels and such since the 40s, plenty of photos exist especially in the 50s and on, mass plantings of Sabals often in direct sand etc,  as for Destin do you have any photos or streetviews of pre 89 CIDP? I am genuinly curious that anything like that survived those winters. 

[Estlander]

15 minutes ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

I know Fort Walton beach was inhabited with plenty of hotels and such since the 40s, plenty of photos exist especially in the 50s and on, mass plantings of Sabals often in direct sand etc,  as for Destin do you have any photos or streetviews of pre 89 CIDP? I am genuinly curious that anything like that survived those winters. 

Sadly I wouldn’t know which ones are pre-89, and which post-89, as I haven’t lived here that long - nor would I know who to ask about them. 
Personally I don’t see a single reason why a CIDP would survive the 80’s in Charleston, Gainesville or Perry, but not here. 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Estlander

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

10 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Sadly I wouldn’t know which ones are pre-89, and which post-89, as I haven’t lived here that long - nor would I know who to ask about them. 
Personally I don’t see a single reason why a CIDP would survive the 80’s in Charleston, Gainesville or Perry, but not here. 

 

Good find! I'd guess that's pre 89, none that big north of Charleston besides maybe the isle of palms. Charleston got down to 14f in the 1989 freeze. Can't find any info on destin though. I will say that either 2014 or 2015 had major damage on CIDP and Washingtonia unless right on the immediate coast in the Fort Walton - Pensacola region. 

[necturus]

Rofl, glad I got my comment in before this went south. I want to see more pictures of Majesties in marginal climates dang it!

There is not that much difference between these locations (New Orleans, Houston, Jacksonville, Destin). There probably is a bigger difference between these locations and inland panhandle. If you can't recognize that, I don't know what to tell you. If you judge a location based on the worst winter in thirty years, I also don't know what to tell you. Finally, if you compare a particular winter in Houston/NOLA to that of north Florida and make a judgement about the overall climate.... you guessed it, I don't know what to tell you. Study winter fronts more. It's all about the tip of the dip and the spread. The worst winters in Texas and Florida often occur in different years for this reason. Sometimes New Orleans gets it and Houston doesn't. Hell, sometimes Houston gets it and Port Arthur doesn't.

With that said, it looks like climate change is going to get us to zone 10 while Destin remains zone 9 :  https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report/appendices/climate-science-supplement/graphics/shifts-plant-hardiness-zones 

[The7thLegend]

10 hours ago, Estlander said:

 

The couple of larger size Pygmies in Houston you constantly keep referring to had to have been protected in bad winters. People have to protect them in Jax too if they want them to survive long term. I’ve see plenty of winter street view images of Pygmies in Jax all covered up.

 

@Estlander I'm sure some folks were protecting their Pygmies, but not in my neck of the woods.  Even on the west side of the St. Johns in Argyle folks just let them ride.  Not much damage if any.  Queens have been looking great a while now also.

[Estlander]

1 hour ago, necturus said:

 

There is not that much difference between these locations (New Orleans, Houston, Jacksonville, Destin). There probably is a bigger difference between these locations and inland panhandle. If you can't recognize that, I don't know what to tell you. If you judge a location based on the worst winter in thirty years, I also don't know what to tell you. Finally, if you compare a particular winter in Houston/NOLA to that of north Florida and make a judgement about the overall climate.... you guessed it, I don't know what to tell you. Study winter fronts more. It's all about the tip of the dip and the spread. The worst winters in Texas and Florida often occur in different years for this reason. Sometimes New Orleans gets it and Houston doesn't. Hell, sometimes Houston gets it and Port Arthur doesn't.

With that said, it looks like climate change is going to get us to zone 10 while Destin remains zone 9 :  https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report/appendices/climate-science-supplement/graphics/shifts-plant-hardiness-zones 

Not once have I ever said ever that inland panhandle is comparable to Houston, Jax and Nola. Of course it isn't.  In all my discussions I've been talking solely about Destin. I thought that was pretty obvious. Not sure how you understood otherwise. 

And, again, not once have I said that Houston's climate is colder than Destin's. just because you dropped lower in 2018 than we did.   I've always said that I find them very comparable,  but not 9b/10a, as Xenon claims. Not sure how you understood otherwise.

Yes, I know all about the dip and the spread of winter fronts. I realize in some freezes both locations are not equally affected.  Just that I found the dip and the spread of January 2018 freeze affecting both Texas and Florida equally. Neither one were spared that winter.  

The climate change link you posted is one of many out there. It uses full zones, and not half zones. So, by zone 9 they probably mean 9b for Destin, and not the current 9a. I've seen climate  projections that say Panama City will have a similar climate to Ciudad Valles in Mexico by 2060. So there you go 

 

[Estlander]

5 minutes ago, The7thLegend said:

@Estlander I'm sure some folks were protecting their Pygmies, but not in my neck of the woods.  Even on the west side of the St. Johns in Argyle folks just let them ride.  Not much damage if any.  Queens have been looking great a while now also.

Yes, the climate trending warmer and the freezes being less severe and less frequent is a blessing for all of us zone pushers. In the not too distant past I'm sure folks even in you neck of the woods would had to have protected their Pygmies, as these are not zone 9a palms. In warm 9a they can last quite a long time though.

[necturus]

Alright man. Cool.  

[Xerarch]

Hey back to topic, just saw this thread, those Majesties look awesome given that location! I think this validates what I've heard about Majesty palms, even though the fronds are pretty tender, looks like they can survive a little more cold than most presume.

[NBTX11]

Houston is warmer, zone wise, than anywhere in the Florida panhandle, and is a legitimate, no joke, zone 9b in the warmest areas of the city.

I have spent significant time in the Florida panhandle at both Pensacola and the Panama City Beach/Tyndall area.  Houston is ridiculously warmer than P'cola, and a little warmer than PCB just based off what is growing.  Pensacola is the king of Sabals, though, since it is almost the only palm growing there. 

[Estlander]

As off-topic as this thread has already gotten,  thought I'd share some pics of what's possible here in the coastal regions of the panhandle, and how some of them have done in the more modern worst freezes with dated proof. 2010 was a bad one as anyone here knows. Almost equally bad was the winter of 2014 here on the panhandle. I'm not saying that no Queens here died in those winters. I'm sure some did, but many survived.  And as rapidly these coastal areas are now growing, they are getting planted in ever increasing numbers.

There is no reason to bring the historic freezes into this,  because if you do, then all regions in southeast on the 29-30 parallel from Jacksonville to Houston are screwed.

Here are only some of the pre 2010 Queens that survived both 2010 and 2014 here. If anyone wants to see more, Google Maps is your friend. There's plenty more. Turn your attention to the dates on images. If there are no dates, then those images were taken by me in 2020 because that's the only image GM had of that particular location.

 

[Estlander]

These two I have confrmed are also pre 2010

[Estlander]

Let's also take this A. Engleri as an example of temperature this areas has experienced. Freeze data shows that they can take down to 21F under canopy and 23F in exposed areas before being frozen to ground level. The one in question is close to a wall but not under any canopy. It shows up as a large size plant already on 2007 street view images In May 2011 it looks like it obviously wasn't affected by 2010. And the last image is from Sept. 2019. 
 

[Estlander]

Or let's take a look at these two A. Wrightii in Gulf Breeze and Panama City Beach. The first image of the one in Gulf Breeze is from May 2013. It's size indicates that it was probably there during the winter of 2010 as well. And the newest image is from 2019. Still there as a huge plant. Obviously the winter of 2014 didn'y cause any trunk dieback, nor did 2010 if it was there already back then. 
And then there's the one in Panama City Beach which was already there in 2011 as per street view, also as a very large plant. Most certainly this one was there for 2010 as well. And it's still there on 2019 images. In neither winters has it gotten cold enough for it to cause any trunk dieback.
University of Florida says that these are hardy to 22-25F. 
And then there is this screenshot from our very own Xenon that started it all. He says that based on his experiences with these in Houston, the trunks are only hardy to low 20's and the crown is even less bud hardy than Queen's.

So, Xenon, in your magical 9b/10a Houston climate even A. Wrightii get damaged, eh? I feel bad for you. As you can see we don't have any problem growing them here

Edited January 30, 2021 by Estlander

[Estlander]

The least cold hardy of Yuccas, the Gigantea/Elephantipes does also extremely well here and are very common.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Estlander

[AnTonY]

On 1/28/2021 at 1:23 PM, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

Oh the stories those Nola CIDP could tell, apparently in the 60s, the tallest W Robusta in the USA was in Nola too, 

It's possible that the heavy annual rainfall of NOLA, combined with the overall swampiness of the land there, could have assisted in the growth of that CIDP, along with the washingtonia. I've read that with abundant water supply, a lot of these so-called dry climate palms can really sky rocket their growth, and reach great heights in even 25 years or less, unlike the longer time of growth it would take in the drier climate of their native range.