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Large Sabal palmetto in Southern Oklahoma


Alex High

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Hello fellow palm lovers,

While searching for some cultivated palms in the towns of southern Oklahoma, I was incredibly surprised to find a photo of some quite large Sabal palmetto and Trachys at the Choctaw Casino in Durant, Oklahoma. At first, I assumed it was a photo of a resort in Florida or along the gulf coast, but then I did some more searching and it really is in Oklahoma! Not just that, but another Choctaw Casino in the town of Grant, Oklahoma also has big Sabal palmetto! Choctaw Casinos are a chain of eight Native American-owned casinos throughout Oklahoma, three of which are also resorts. They clearly like palms and probably planted them to attract visitors and give the casinos that "tropical" look. I am quite surprised that no one has posted about this before. The climate seems suitable for Sabal palmetto, so it is not a huge shock that they can grow there, it is more of a shock that they actually are grown there and that there are some big specimens, quite a few! I am not sure if they were transplanted or planted as young specimens, but they certainly are large and healthy-looking, and the same goes for the Trachys. Let me know what you think and/or if you know of any other Sabal palmettto or Trachys in southern Oklahoma. Thanks!

 

PalmsUSA

Choctaw Casino Durant, OK:

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Should be fine there.  Durant is very close to the Texas border and is 20 miles from Denison, Texas.  Would anyone be surprised if this scene was in Sherman/Denison or somewhere else in N. TX?  I wouldn't.  Same climate as North Texas north of DFW, such as Sherman, Denton, etc.  I actually think I recall seeing a palm tree or two in Sherman at some hotel when driving up 75 to Oklahoma once.

Good find, though. 

Edited by NBTX11
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If i didnt know any better, i would think that i was on the Alabama Gulf Coast!

Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 2 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 2 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa

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newly constructed and wrapped in winter by the way... al located in an enclosed courtyard.

durant casino.jpg

Edited by Collectorpalms

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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19 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

wrapped in winter by the way...

durant casino.jpg

The question is why.  I don't think you need to wrap Sabal Palmettos there.  I mean, you can drive from Durant to downtown Dallas in and hour and a half or less easily.  You're probably 45 min from the northern DFW suburbs.  No one would wrap a Sabal in DFW if they knew any better about palms.

I think the Sabals are fine at the southernmost points of OK, outside of a catastrophic freeze.  They may be doing more harm than good by wrapping them like this.

I looked up the low temp this winter for Denison TX, which is 20 min south of Durant.  The low this winter is 24 degrees.

 

Edited by NBTX11
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I saw these a while back on google maps randomly, I always wondered why there were not more of them in Southern Oklahoma. It seems to be in that same sort of climate as North Texas, although of course it can get colder at times. I would think there would be more Sabals though since people are growing Washingtonias not that far south of there. Sometimes I check that area on the temperature map and it has been in the 70s at times in the winter, I’m sure they get a lot of sun to warm things up there too during the winter. I hope more tall palms are found in Southern Oklahoma! 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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PalmTreeDude

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8 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

The question is why.  I don't think you need to wrap Sabal Palmettos there.  I mean, you can drive from Durant to downtown Dallas in and hour and a half or less easily.  You're probably 45 min from the northern DFW suburbs.  No one would wrap a Sabal in DFW if they knew any better about palms.

Sabals sp. (probably Sabal palmetto) wrapped at the Botanical Gardens in Fort Worth, Texas (picture taken in January of 2018).  The Sabal minor, Chamaerops humilis var. argentea, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, and Washingtonia sp. they had there were not wrapped, just the mature Sabal sp. were wrapped in burlap.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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1 hour ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Sabals sp. (probably Sabal palmetto) wrapped at the Botanical Gardens in Fort Worth, Texas (picture taken in January of 2018).  The Sabal minor, Chamaerops humilis var. argentea, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, and Washingtonia sp. they had there were not wrapped, just the mature Sabal sp. were wrapped in burlap.       

Wrapping the Sabals in Ft. Worth is totally unnecessary a vast majority of the time.  There is no reason to wrap one all winter.  If you want to be safe, maybe wrap it the 2-3 coldest nights of the year, until they get firmly established, then let them go on their own.

Edited by NBTX11
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22 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Wrapping the Sabals in Ft. Worth is totally unnecessary a vast majority of the time.  There is no reason to wrap one all winter.  If you want to be safe, maybe wrap it the 2-3 coldest nights of the year, until they get firmly established, then let them go on their own.

If I recall, we had an ice event here in San Antonio a few days after that picture was taken.  The government building I worked in was even shut down due to fear of ice on the roads.  I am sure it was worse further north; that may have prompted it.  I recall seeing some Washingtonia sp. planted on commercial properties being wrapped up in burlap too while I was driving around the DFW area that weekend.  Can't speak to the necessity of it as I have never lived up there, but it does happen.

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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1 hour ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

If I recall, we had an ice event here in San Antonio a few days after that picture was taken.  The government building I worked in was even shut down due to fear of ice on the roads.  I am sure it was worse further north; that may have prompted it.  I recall seeing some Washingtonia sp. planted on commercial properties being wrapped up in burlap too while I was driving around the DFW area that weekend.  Can't speak to the necessity of it as I have never lived up there, but it does happen.

I get that, and if someone wants to wrap a Sabal in a cold event, go for it.  What I am saying is this.  After a large Sabal Palmetto is firmly established and rooted, wrapping it is unnecessary in Central TX, and even North Texas (DFW).  The only possible exception is a 1983 or 1989 type freeze.  A little ice or snow should not be a problem either, provided it wasn't accompanied by a long term freeze.  

There is a reason 50 plus year Sabals are all over Austin.  Take a look at the record cold Austin received in the 1980's.

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I don't know guys, I spent 2 years off and on in Oklahoma and it gets pretty cold.  Minors and needles I can see being fine but the rest is pretty dicey,  a lot of the state is flat and wide open to the cold arctic air.  1 hour further south can make a big difference.  The vegetation there was very reminiscent of what I would see all the way back up in Canada.

According to the maps the very southeastern part of the state is 7B, so it's extremely borderline but I suppose some big Palmettos might make it.  

Edited by Chester B
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2 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I don't know guys, I spent 2 years off and on in Oklahoma and it gets pretty cold.  Minors and needles I can see being fine but the rest is pretty dicey,  a lot of the state is flat and wide open to the cold arctic air.  1 hour further south can make a big difference.

Durant OK is not that wide open.  The eastern half of OK has trees.  You could ride a bicycle from Durant to Denison TX (if you were in any kind of shape).

Edited by NBTX11
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2 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Durant OK is not that wide open.  The eastern half of OK has trees.  You could ride a bicycle from Durant to Denison TX (if you were in any kind of shape).

Yes you're right.  And I prefer to drive!

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I am not saying it doesn't get cold in N TX and S. OK, I guess what I am saying is that really cold weather, let's say below 15 degrees is quite uncommon, like one time a year uncommon.  Your established Sabals should handle that fairly easily.  Your average January day in Durant OK is going to be in the low 50's for highs, with a low of around 30 or slightly below (28 or 29), and that's the coldest month of the year.  Looking at the USDA plant hardiness map, Durant Oklahoma appears to be on the border of hardiness zone 8a, which is essentially the same as Atlanta, Georgia.

Has anyone planted large palmettos is Atlanta?  How do they fare most winters?  Are they wrapped during the winters and/or cold events?

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18 hours ago, PalmsUSA said:

Hello fellow palm lovers,

While searching for some cultivated palms in the towns of southern Oklahoma, I was incredibly surprised to find a photo of some quite large Sabal palmetto and Trachys at the Choctaw Casino in Durant, Oklahoma. At first, I assumed it was a photo of a resort in Florida or along the gulf coast, but then I did some more searching and it really is in Oklahoma! Not just that, but another Choctaw Casino in the town of Grant, Oklahoma also has big Sabal palmetto! Choctaw Casinos are a chain of eight Native American-owned casinos throughout Oklahoma, three of which are also resorts. They clearly like palms and probably planted them to attract visitors and give the casinos that "tropical" look. I am quite surprised that no one has posted about this before. The climate seems suitable for Sabal palmetto, so it is not a huge shock that they can grow there, it is more of a shock that they actually are grown there and that there are some big specimens, quite a few! I am not sure if they were transplanted or planted as young specimens, but they certainly are large and healthy-looking, and the same goes for the Trachys. Let me know what you think and/or if you know of any other Sabal palmettto or Trachys in southern Oklahoma. Thanks!

 

PalmsUSA

Choctaw Casino Durant, OK:

A Special Look Into the History of the Choctaw Durant Property, Part 1: Big  Bingo To Big Casino Main Tour WPT Choctaw Season 2017-2018 1B 25/100-200 |  World Poker Tour

4 Reasons Choctaw Casino's a Fab Getaway | The Dallas Diva

 Choctaw Casino & Resort Durant (6) - My Curly Adventures

Choctaw Casino in Durant Oklahoma - Google Search | Choctaw casino, Durant  oklahoma, Choctaw

my stay at choctaw casino and resort Durant

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I think they could survive unprotected.

Nothing to say here. 

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6 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

I am not saying it doesn't get cold in N TX and S. OK, I guess what I am saying is that really cold weather, let's say below 15 degrees is quite uncommon, like one time a year uncommon.  Your established Sabals should handle that fairly easily.  Your average January day in Durant OK is going to be in the low 50's for highs, with a low of around 30 or slightly below (28 or 29), and that's the coldest month of the year.  Looking at the USDA plant hardiness map, Durant Oklahoma appears to be on the border of hardiness zone 8a, which is essentially the same as Atlanta, Georgia.

Has anyone planted large palmettos is Atlanta?  How do they fare most winters?  Are they wrapped during the winters and/or cold events?

The Atlanta region has a surprising amount of mature Palmetto, as well as Butia tons of windmills and even some Sagos and european fans in the southern parts.  91412483_1536372553187603_2828810695464714240_o.thumb.jpg.9fbec818165d8da431d8fe9ea8caf8a9.jpg

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The Casino in Durant (it is actually south of Durant) is probably about a 15 minute drive from being inside zone 8 on the USDA maps. So it wouldn't be that shocking if some palmettos were surviving there. I have been told for years that there are palms there, but I never seen them while driving through on my sporadic trips to Texas. If they are in a more sheltered area near the pool, instead of in front of the building, that would make sense. I have never gotten out there and gone hunting for them. 

It just so happens that I will driving past the casino in Durant tomorrow. I'll let you all know if I see anything from the highway.  

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1 hour ago, Ben OK said:

The Casino in Durant (it is actually south of Durant) is probably about a 15 minute drive from being inside zone 8 on the USDA maps. So it wouldn't be that shocking if some palmettos were surviving there. I have been told for years that there are palms there, but I never seen them while driving through on my sporadic trips to Texas. If they are in a more sheltered area near the pool, instead of in front of the building, that would make sense. I have never gotten out there and gone hunting for them. 

It just so happens that I will driving past the casino in Durant tomorrow. I'll let you all know if I see anything from the highway.  

they are only in the hidden courtyard pool area from the Arial view and street view. take a look inside,

Edited by Collectorpalms

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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I stopped for a minute at the Choctaw Casino in Durant on my way through. There's a lot of construction going on at the moment, so I didn't get to walk around as much as I wanted. There are quite a few large palmettos that are all wrapped up. Not sure why they are wrapping them, since they had some butias that were not wrapped.

20210128_132542_HDR~2.jpg

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Wow, holy smokes! When I clicked on this topic I expected to see a couple semi-decent looking Sabals, but this is fantastic! I know the climate there might just squeak into 8a so I'm not surprised that they are there but the culture of region doesn't seem to have an appetite for large palm planting.  I recently drove through the nearby and similar climate between Texarkana and Dallas.  There are palms here and there and someone like me finds them because I'm always on the lookout, but there aren't that many even though the Sabals and Trachy's look good.  I saw a couple P dacty's too, and they looked like trash.  Side note I would have liked to zoom in on southern Oklahoma on the interactive USDA zone map but it has been inoperable for quite a while, at least for me, anyone know anything about that?  

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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2 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Side note I would have liked to zoom in on southern Oklahoma on the interactive USDA zone map but it has been inoperable for quite a while, at least for me, anyone know anything about that?

Try this link.  Then use your browser zoom function.

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Try this link.  Then use your browser zoom function.

Thanks, tried the link, it gives me the same privacy error I've been getting for a while.  I know others have had the same issue, not sure what the deal is

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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7 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Thanks, tried the link, it gives me the same privacy error I've been getting for a while.  I know others have had the same issue, not sure what the deal is

I use Firefox with no issues.  Here is another good link.  You can zoom into individual states with the county borders delineated.

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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2 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I use Firefox with no issues.  Here is another good link.  You can zoom into individual states with the county borders delineated.

I also get the same error/warning issue. Use Plantmaps ( 2012 data ) instead.. No issues using it.

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1 minute ago, Silas_Sancona said:

I also get the same error/warning issue. Use Plantmaps ( 2012 data ) instead.. No issues using it.

Clearly you are on the USDA watch list....just kidding.  It probably has something to do with their expired digital cert (it looks like it expired on November 13, 2020).  If your browser security is setup to block you from invalided TLS encrypted sites (i.e., sites that use https vice http), then your own browser may be blocking you from accessing the site (it is hard to say for sure without knowing your setup).  If this is the case, then you can either: i) wait for the USDA to update their digital cert, or ii) add an exemption in your browser security settings for usda.gov.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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Here are the USDA state maps for Oklahoma and East Texas, in case anyone can't access the USDA website:

image.jpeg.03a2db1c1a229b8a316d0efb5ebbec30.jpeg

image.jpeg.6b7773323a74ccff0113cee759ee9d52.jpeg

 

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Clearly you are on the USDA watch list....just kidding.  It probably has something to do with their expired digital cert (it looks like it expired on November 13, 2020).  If your browser security is setup to block you from invalided TLS encrypted sites (i.e., sites that use https vice http), then your own browser may be blocking you from accessing the site (it is hard to say for sure without knowing your setup).  If this is the case, then you can either: i) wait for the USDA to update their digital cert, or ii) add an exemption in your browser security settings for usda.gov.

:greenthumb::lol: Maybe..  The Mans' Gotta keep those researching climate change impacts/ plant import info down right?, lol!..  

There was a thread earlier ( down in the Wx section, i think.. ) about this issue.. Suspect it might be connected to a bigger " un-plugging" of scientific data access done by a prior administration.. but, -just my thought on the matter-.. There have been some other things via the NOAA/ Climate related info that mysteriously disappeared between looking over info/ other stuff that was grossly un- attended to..  Believe someone here reached out about the issue, but never received any reply.  ( go figure )

Trust plant maps data ( though i'm sure it is pretty much the same ) enough that it works -until the next update is published, by either site-. By then, i don't doubt that section of S. Oklahoma will be 8A, among several other shifts i'd anticipate seeing... 

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Yeah I use plant maps a lot, I love the mapping of native plant ranges, they're not perfect but combined with every other data source I look at you can get a pretty good idea of where things stand.  It may be my browser settings, if I bypass the warning I can open the map, but all the zone data is blank and it's just a map that I can scroll in and out on.  I was hoping that down time on the map meant that they were updating it to a newer version with more years of data, alas, that does not seem to be the issue.

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Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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51 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Yeah I use plant maps a lot, I love the mapping of native plant ranges, they're not perfect but combined with every other data source I look at you can get a pretty good idea of where things stand.  It may be my browser settings, if I bypass the warning I can open the map, but all the zone data is blank and it's just a map that I can scroll in and out on.  I was hoping that down time on the map meant that they were updating it to a newer version with more years of data, alas, that does not seem to be the issue.

I love range maps too, it’s cool to see what grows where and kind of try to figure out why. It’s also cool to find outliers too. 

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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PalmTreeDude

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12 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

I love range maps too, it’s cool to see what grows where and kind of try to figure out why. It’s also cool to find outliers too. 

It is.. Over time, it is also a good way to see what/  who is on the move thanks to the influence of warming in X area ( obviously relating to things that can walk/fly as a pose to plants -generally speaking- ).. 

Veering for a sec,  Keeping a regular eye on some rare bird sightings both here and out in CA.. 

San Diego Bay Flamingo -that mysteriously turned up there in 2018?- ..Still there..  Another ( or two ) < likely an escapee > ( Chilean, apparently ) hanging out in San Francisco Bay as well atm.

  Tucson is abuzz right now for sightings of 1-3 Northern Jacana that have been in the area since early last summer.. These are a Tropical Wading bird that doesn't like cold, and is a rare sight  anywhere in the U.S., ..even in far S. Texas where they hang out -often enough- along the Rio Grande, down by Brownsville. Don't think they have ever been sighted in Central/South FL. oddly enough.

Need to get out to a local park to see if i can spot a Spoonbill that has been in the area since last year.  Regular enough visitor to preferred habitat in the region, but usually head south when it gets cold ( which really isn't that cold, lol ).

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am curious to see how this landscaping pans out after the current weather events. I wonder if the palms were afforded any additional protection.

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They may have had a better chance than say Texas that does not have power or in a rolling blackout until.....??? But I predict all palms of not heated are dead. 

F63814D9-C410-4D16-874F-B7F2FD56DE86.png

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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3 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

They may have had a better chance than say Texas that does not have power or in a rolling blackout until.....??? But I predict all palms of not heated are dead. 

F63814D9-C410-4D16-874F-B7F2FD56DE86.png

Sad thing is your governor is not telling Texan's the truth.  He had to "ask" the natural gas suppliers to not ship to the coast for export.  He should also look into the compacts made with NM to ensure gas delivery to NM in these events. Texans are suffering because your gas has been stolen thru contracts and compacts.

 

Meaning your state is exporting natural gas while said citizens are suffering(and dying) due to "lack" of said gas. 

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13 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

They may have had a better chance than say Texas that does not have power or in a rolling blackout until.....??? But I predict all palms of not heated are dead. 

F63814D9-C410-4D16-874F-B7F2FD56DE86.png

I def fee like they likely won't survive this, unless they are heated in some significant way.  

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On 1/26/2021 at 9:28 PM, PalmsUSA said:

Hello fellow palm lovers,

While searching for some cultivated palms in the towns of southern Oklahoma, I was incredibly surprised to find a photo of some quite large Sabal palmetto and Trachys at the Choctaw Casino in Durant, Oklahoma. At first, I assumed it was a photo of a resort in Florida or along the gulf coast, but then I did some more searching and it really is in Oklahoma! Not just that, but another Choctaw Casino in the town of Grant, Oklahoma also has big Sabal palmetto! Choctaw Casinos are a chain of eight Native American-owned casinos throughout Oklahoma, three of which are also resorts. They clearly like palms and probably planted them to attract visitors and give the casinos that "tropical" look. I am quite surprised that no one has posted about this before. The climate seems suitable for Sabal palmetto, so it is not a huge shock that they can grow there, it is more of a shock that they actually are grown there and that there are some big specimens, quite a few! I am not sure if they were transplanted or planted as young specimens, but they certainly are large and healthy-looking, and the same goes for the Trachys. Let me know what you think and/or if you know of any other Sabal palmettto or Trachys in southern Oklahoma. Thanks!

 

PalmsUSA

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But are there any in mccurtain county?

Nothing to say here. 

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I suspect that the Sabals are texanas but...it may all be relative as both proven hardy in Dallas. BUT, we just had a 100 year event ( some all time record breaking lows) so not sure if many, even if there, would survive. You don't have as many as say, Dallas, because of the urban heat island enjoyed. Oklahoma has no such consistent warming, check daily lows in an ave year. Not conducive to big palms but the minors and needles no prob some say clear to Kansas! Definitely no Washingtonias of any significant size that far north unless artificially heated...

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These palms are dead.  Sadly, this was the worst possible freeze.  They make it in virtually every other winter, usually without protection.. 

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