What hybrid could Sabal Birmingham be?

[EastCanadaTropicals]

What hybrid between palms is the Sabal Birmingham? Also, is there any research done on them, and have you done research yourself?

[climate change virginia]

sabal palmetto and birmingham they have similar flowering times

[ky_palm064]

On viewing the Gary's Nursery website, about how the original Sabal "birmingham" grew to 20+ feet in northern Alabama (and regenerated a full crown after transplanting), and after reading (  http://www.garysnursery.com/SabalBirmingham.html )  about how leaf hardy the offspring are, Sabal minor seems to be involved.

[Allen]

Seems to be a palmetto x minor cross.  Frond hardy to 5F or so.  Since trunk is underground when small it will likely come back from 0F or below but fronds killed.  I have 4 of them

[EastCanadaTropicals]

8 hours ago, climate change virginia said:

sabal palmetto and birmingham they have similar flowering times

They should hybrid those two palms to make a faster, taller version of sabal palmetto.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

5 hours ago, Allen said:

Seems to be a palmetto x minor cross.  Frond hardy to 5F or so.  Since trunk is underground when small it will likely come back from 0F or below but fronds killed.  I have 4 of them

But Sabal Brazoria is already a palmetto x minor cross.

[Matt N- Dallas]

From my experience of growing Birmingham in Dallas- it’s a slow grower.  I planted a 5 gal size plant in 2003- it now has 1’ of trunk.  For comparison- a washingtonia filibusta that was one year younger- planted at the same time, now has +30’ of trunk.  

[Dartolution]

3 hours ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

But Sabal Brazoria is already a palmetto x minor cross.

Correct. They likely both are.

Keep in mind that neither Birmingham, nor Brazoria are recognized species of Sabal.

Sabal 'birmingham' is a cultivar whose parent plant originated in Miss Alexanders private garden in Birmingham, Alabama (about 35 miles north of me). It is believed that she originally got this sabal out west and grew from seed. The original birmingham was transplanted to the BBG in 1976. After many attempted relocations (idiots) the original palm died, but not before bearing seed. The descendants are collectively known as the cultivar 'Birmingham.'

Sabal 'brazoria / xBrazoriensis' is an arborescent hybrid of likely S. mexicana and minor, or Palmetto and minor, or perhaps something between the three species. Its naturally occurs in Brazoria county texas - or did at one time or another. Sabal of this cultivar are given this to reference its parentage origin of Brazoria County, TX.

 

 

[Austinpalm]

14 hours ago, Dartolution said:

 

 

 

Here are a couple articles about Sabal x brazoriensis.

http://www.montgomerybotanical.org/media/expeditions/USATexas2011.pdf

https://www.google.com/search?q=hybrid+sabal+from+texas&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS752US752&oq=hybrid+sabal+from+texas&aqs=chrome..69i57.6015j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edited January 20, 2021 by Austinpalm

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:30 PM, Dartolution said:

Correct. They likely both are.

Keep in mind that neither Birmingham, nor Brazoria are recognized species of Sabal.

Sabal 'birmingham' is a cultivar whose parent plant originated in Miss Alexanders private garden in Birmingham, Alabama (about 35 miles north of me). It is believed that she originally got this sabal out west and grew from seed. The original birmingham was transplanted to the BBG in 1976. After many attempted relocations (idiots) the original palm died, but not before bearing seed. The descendants are collectively known as the cultivar 'Birmingham.'

Sabal 'brazoria / xBrazoriensis' is an arborescent hybrid of likely S. mexicana and minor, or Palmetto and minor, or perhaps something between the three species. Its naturally occurs in Brazoria county texas - or did at one time or another. Sabal of this cultivar are given this to reference its parentage origin of Brazoria County, TX.

 

 

But why does Brazoria look different than Birmingham then? 

[Dartolution]

1 minute ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

But why does Brazoria look different than Birmingham then? 

For the same reason that grapefruits look different from mandarin oranges. Both are citrus, and both are different varieties of citrus. 

 

[EastCanadaTropicals]

1 minute ago, Dartolution said:

For the same reason that grapefruits look different from mandarin oranges. Both are citrus, and both are different varieties of citrus. 

 

Still don't get how brazoria differentiates from Birmingham, but thanks.

[Meangreen94z]

18 hours ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

Still don't get how brazoria differentiates from Birmingham, but thanks.

The explanation is, if the Sabal Palmetto and Minor grew in the vicinity of each other, it probably wasn’t like if a person were to cross pollinate them once. They probably cross pollinated, then the hybrid back cross pollinated with non hybrids palms in the vicinity. This happened until the original  parent species died off and there was nothing but hybrids left to cross pollinate. In the case of Brazoria a higher percentage of Minor DNA. Then there’s the factor of Sabal Minor being variable itself, with large forms, dwarf forms, etc.

I believe Birmingham is of an unknown source, possibly someone’s garden. It may have only crossed once.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

The explanation is, if the Sabal Palmetto and Minor grew in the vicinity of each other, it probably wasn’t like if a person were to cross pollinate them once. They probably cross pollinated, then the hybrid back cross pollinated with non hybrids palms in the vicinity. This happened until the original  parent species died off and there was nothing but hybrids left to cross pollinate. In the case of Brazoria a higher percentage of Minor DNA. Then there’s the factor of Sabal Minor being variable itself, with large forms, dwarf forms, etc.

I believe Birmingham is of an unknown source, possibly someone’s garden. It may have only crossed once.

Thank you.

[GoatLockerGuns]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:30 PM, Dartolution said:

Correct. They likely both are.

Keep in mind that neither Birmingham, nor Brazoria are recognized species of Sabal.

Sabal 'birmingham' is a cultivar whose parent plant originated in Miss Alexanders private garden in Birmingham, Alabama (about 35 miles north of me). It is believed that she originally got this sabal out west and grew from seed. The original birmingham was transplanted to the BBG in 1976. After many attempted relocations (idiots) the original palm died, but not before bearing seed. The descendants are collectively known as the cultivar 'Birmingham.'

Sabal 'brazoria / xBrazoriensis' is an arborescent hybrid of likely S. mexicana and minor, or Palmetto and minor, or perhaps something between the three species. Its naturally occurs in Brazoria county texas - or did at one time or another. Sabal of this cultivar are given this to reference its parentage origin of Brazoria County, TX.

 

 

Great summation!  After reviewing the Kew Herbarium record for Sabal x brazoriensis (K000707460), it looks like the source plant they utilized to make this determination is at the following coordinates: 28 58 20 N, 95 40 46 W.  That is not too far down the road.  I might just have to take a seed gathering road trip down there one of these days!

[WSimpson]

On 1/18/2021 at 9:15 PM, EastCanadaTropicals said:

What hybrid between palms is the Sabal Birmingham? Also, is there any research done on them, and have you done research yourself?

I thought I had the Holy Grail of Birminghams because one of my Birminghams is way different than its bigger brother  . I bought them at the same time but one looks more Palmetto and has a much thinner trunk and is smaller overall   , and has  more Palmetto looking fronds . It will take more time to see if there is really any differences between them , but you would never think they were the same plant .

Will

Edited January 23, 2021 by Will Simpson

[RaleighNC]

5 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

The explanation is, if the Sabal Palmetto and Minor grew in the vicinity of each other, it probably wasn’t like if a person were to cross pollinate them once. They probably cross pollinated, then the hybrid back cross pollinated with non hybrids palms in the vicinity. This happened until the original  parent species died off and there was nothing but hybrids left to cross pollinate. In the case of Brazoria a higher percentage of Minor DNA. Then there’s the factor of Sabal Minor being variable itself, with large forms, dwarf forms, etc.

This is a possibility, but isn't supported by the paper by Goldman et al (2011) that established that Brazoria sabals are probably a hybrid of S. minor and S. palmetto.  They state that there is no evidence of backcrosses to S. minor.  But they do believe that the original hybridization occurred thousands of years ago, which would have given plenty of opportunity for parts of the genome to be fixed with only S. minor genetics and other parts to be fixed with only S. palmetto genetics (while other parts would still be a mix). The result would be a population of plants that could be quite different from a recent hybrid.

Anyway, has anyone here noted a clear difference between Sabal Birmingham and Sabal Brazoria? I have seen large individuals of both, and I would not be able to distinguish them. I have read that brazoria has inflorescences longer than leaves, in contrast to birmingham, but other reports describe brazoria as having inflorescences shorter than the leaves. 

[Meangreen94z]

27 minutes ago, RaleighNC said:

This is a possibility, but isn't supported by the paper by Goldman et al (2011) that established that Brazoria sabals are probably a hybrid of S. minor and S. palmetto.  They state that there is no evidence of backcrosses to S. minor.  But they do believe that the original hybridization occurred thousands of years ago, which would have given plenty of opportunity for parts of the genome to be fixed with only S. minor genetics and other parts to be fixed with only S. palmetto genetics (while other parts would still be a mix). The result would be a population of plants that could be quite different from a recent hybrid.

Anyway, has anyone here noted a clear difference between Sabal Birmingham and Sabal Brazoria? I have seen large individuals of both, and I would not be able to distinguish them. I have read that brazoria has inflorescences longer than leaves, in contrast to birmingham, but other reports describe brazoria as having inflorescences shorter than the leaves. 

I think with natural introgression of two species in a habitat it’s safe to assume back crossing is guaranteed given time. The chances of everyone of them only cross pollinating with other 50/50 hybrids in the area, while the pollinators avoided pure Minor and Palmetto is unlikely.  And as you mentioned this cross happened thousands of years ago, Sabal Minor and Palmetto no longer exist in the area of native Brazoria, meaning 100% hybridization of all palms in the vicinity. 

That and I don’t think there would be anyway to detect the exact percentage of parent genetics involved in the specimen their examining. 

[Steve in Florida]

6 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

I think with natural introgression of two species in a habitat it’s safe to assume back crossing is guaranteed given time. The chances of everyone of them only cross pollinating with other 50/50 hybrids in the area, while the pollinators avoided pure Minor and Palmetto is unlikely.  And as you mentioned this cross happened thousands of years ago, Sabal Minor and Palmetto no longer exist in the area of native Brazoria, meaning 100% hybridization of all palms in the vicinity. 

That and I don’t think there would be anyway to detect the exact percentage of parent genetics involved in the specimen their examining. 

No evidence of recent hybridization was found by researchers in the area where protected Sabal x brazoriensis and Sabal minor grew.  This was reflected in the DNA study from plants in that area and covered in the published report.

[Collectorpalms]

On 1/23/2021 at 4:36 PM, RaleighNC said:

This is a possibility, but isn't supported by the paper by Goldman et al (2011) that established that Brazoria sabals are probably a hybrid of S. minor and S. palmetto.  They state that there is no evidence of backcrosses to S. minor.  But they do believe that the original hybridization occurred thousands of years ago, which would have given plenty of opportunity for parts of the genome to be fixed with only S. minor genetics and other parts to be fixed with only S. palmetto genetics (while other parts would still be a mix). The result would be a population of plants that could be quite different from a recent hybrid.

Anyway, has anyone here noted a clear difference between Sabal Birmingham and Sabal Brazoria? I have seen large individuals of both, and I would not be able to distinguish them. I have read that brazoria has inflorescences longer than leaves, in contrast to birmingham, but other reports describe brazoria as having inflorescences shorter than the leaves. 

Sabal Brazoria is relatively fast. Adults look like sabal minor on steroids' possibly like you might expect a minor x mexicana and Birmingham leans to look like a palmetto. 

[Antti]

Any pics to share, please?

[teddytn]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:30 PM, Dartolution said:

Correct. They likely both are.

Keep in mind that neither Birmingham, nor Brazoria are recognized species of Sabal.

Sabal 'birmingham' is a cultivar whose parent plant originated in Miss Alexanders private garden in Birmingham, Alabama (about 35 miles north of me). It is believed that she originally got this sabal out west and grew from seed. The original birmingham was transplanted to the BBG in 1976. After many attempted relocations (idiots) the original palm died, but not before bearing seed. The descendants are collectively known as the cultivar 'Birmingham.'

Sabal 'brazoria / xBrazoriensis' is an arborescent hybrid of likely S. mexicana and minor, or Palmetto and minor, or perhaps something between the three species. Its naturally occurs in Brazoria county texas - or did at one time or another. Sabal of this cultivar are given this to reference its parentage origin of Brazoria County, TX.

 

 

Super curious, do you see these planted in Alabama? Or just an outlier cultivar everywhere, I have this mental picture that’s there’s plantings of Sabal Birmingham everywhere around Birmingham lol

[Dartolution]

@teddytn There are multiple sabals planted around Birmingham and south of Bham where I am, but they aren't exactly labeled. 

Im sure there are 'birminghams' around but I don't know if or who displays them. Most of the ones I see appear to be palmettos that have likely been trucked in from the coast. 

As far as brazoria goes - no idea. 

 

[teddytn]

@Dartolution No for sure nothing is labeled, you know better than me, at least when young all sabals could be passed off as one another. How’s the palm tree game where you’re at, is there a lot of public palm tree plantings? I know when I drive south to Florida I don’t really start seeing any until I hit Montgomery Alabama.

[Dartolution]

@teddytn Sparse really. You don't start seeing them planted heavily *or more heavily* until Prattville which is right before Montgomery. I am roughly 35 mins away from Prattville. 

Here, and north of me into Bham (Bham is 35-40mins north) there are commercial and residential plantings of Sabals, Butia, Trachys, and Sagos (cycad). In Prattville you see a lot of Chammies, Sabals, sagos, Butia planted at restaurants and gas stations. 

Like you said, its not until you reach south of Montgomery do you start to see more and more.

Here, cold hardy palms seem to be difficult to find in the surrounding 50mile radius of Birmingham. Not all nurseries carry them, and those that do charge a premium for them. 

I was at a nursery off HWY280 in Inverness a couple of weeks ago and there were some 5 gallon butias for $299.00... why? I don't know. 

Trachys were in the same price range 200-400. Its sort of ridiculous. 

I go to prattville or south to get them because I can find a 3 gallon Trachy for 15-25$ or a 5 gallon butia for 50-80$. 

The metro area have a lot of very heavily populated residential zones and HOA neighborhoods were it seems the overall consensus is "palms don't grow here," despite a 9 ft tall sabal growing in a ditch up the road. *shrug* (also - alabama power killed and destroyed that sabal last year). Anyway, I digress ... you get the picture. 

 

[teddytn]

4 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@teddytn Sparse really. You don't start seeing them planted heavily *or more heavily* until Prattville which is right before Montgomery. I am roughly 35 mins away from Prattville. 

Here, and north of me into Bham (Bham is 35-40mins north) there are commercial and residential plantings of Sabals, Butia, Trachys, and Sagos (cycad). In Prattville you see a lot of Chammies, Sabals, sagos, Butia planted at restaurants and gas stations. 

Like you said, its not until you reach south of Montgomery do you start to see more and more.

Here, cold hardy palms seem to be difficult to find in the surrounding 50mile radius of Birmingham. Not all nurseries carry them, and those that do charge a premium for them. 

I was at a nursery off HWY280 in Inverness a couple of weeks ago and there were some 5 gallon butias for $299.00... why? I don't know. 

Trachys were in the same price range 200-400. Its sort of ridiculous. 

I go to prattville or south to get them because I can find a 3 gallon Trachy for 15-25$ or a 5 gallon butia for 50-80$. 

The metro area have a lot of very heavily populated residential zones and HOA neighborhoods were it seems the overall consensus is "palms don't grow here," despite a 9 ft tall sabal growing in a ditch up the road. *shrug* (also - alabama power killed and destroyed that sabal last year). Anyway, I digress ... you get the picture. 

 

It’s weird that it’s like that, just saying but for most of the rest of us if we don’t have a handle on the subject matter we deal with at work we get fired. Not all of course, but general feeling is that if a big box store or general purpose nursery carries palms they stock palms that are not for the local zone. Or yes are ridiculously priced. 5 gallon palm for $300 is insane. I need to find some potted trachycarpus, shipped bare rooted doesn’t work well here. The heat doesn’t let them settle in and then the first winter crushes them. Potted is the next experiment for sure.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:35 PM, teddytn said:

It’s weird that it’s like that, just saying but for most of the rest of us if we don’t have a handle on the subject matter we deal with at work we get fired. Not all of course, but general feeling is that if a big box store or general purpose nursery carries palms they stock palms that are not for the local zone. Or yes are ridiculously priced. 5 gallon palm for $300 is insane. I need to find some potted trachycarpus, shipped bare rooted doesn’t work well here. The heat doesn’t let them settle in and then the first winter crushes them. Potted is the next experiment for sure.

I just ordered bare root trachy hybrids from banana joe

Edited May 31, 2021 by EastCanadaTropicals

[teddytn]

4 hours ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

I just ordered bare root trachy hybrids from banana joe

Just my advice, take it or leave it of course. I would just be careful of full sun right away if you’re going to plant them. Give them some protection like a shade cloth for a few weeks or if you pot them keep them in a shadier spot just at first. 

[Jtee]

Yeah I’d give them some shade. They come from up north and probably don’t even know what sun is lol just kidding but really they would benefit from shade. 
 

i ordered some bare root windmills palms seedlings from eBay that came from South Carolina and they are in sun and have yellow because the sun is too powerful for them now but they’ll get use to it. They are growing quick though.  

[EastCanadaTropicals]

20 hours ago, teddytn said:

Just my advice, take it or leave it of course. I would just be careful of full sun right away if you’re going to plant them. Give them some protection like a shade cloth for a few weeks or if you pot them keep them in a shadier spot just at first. 

I put my trachys in partial shade, and I am gonna pot them.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

I put my trachys in partial shade, and I am gonna pot them.

I planted 3 the other day, I was so concerned about them getting beat up in the sun since they were grown in a greenhouse, I built them all their own greenhouse. 

[teddytn]

I was thinking about this last night. The going idea is birmingham is likely a palmetto/ minor cross. Is it actually possible to pollinate one with the other right now? It seems that since they co-habitate in nature wouldn’t we see more hybrids naturally occurring? Basically can this be repeated and “create” a Birmingham? Or any other sabal variant outlier, Brazoria, Louisiana, Birmingham. Seems like this should be able to be repeated if it’s true.