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ngservet

Palm Ideas For Seabrook Island SC

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ngservet

Hello All,

I am new to the forum and would like some recommendations for palms on Seabrook Island, SC? We are right along the ocean approximately 30 miles southeast of downtown Charleston. We are bordered by the Atlantic Ocean to the east and the Kiawah river to the west. The island is covered with Sabal palms naturally under a live oak, pine, and magnolia canopy. I would like to believe we are a solid 9a. I see Pindo's, Mediterranean Fans, Washingtonia's, and Windmills around with the occasional Sylvester Date and CIDP. What other species would you recommend? I am surprised not to see any Medjool Dates? Is price a major barrier for these? I have read they are cold hardier than CIDP and Sylvester's. I figure a queen or pygmy island date may survive if sheltered under the canopy and building especially if it is ocean facing? Please let me know your suggestions. Attached is the location of the island. We are about 45 miles north of Hilton Head as the crow flies. 

Thanks,

Nick

 

 

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PalmatierMeg

Welcome to PT. We have members in SC who would be glad to help you.

Regarding true date palms, Phoenix dactylifera, I can't vouch for their cold hardiness but they are true desert palms that prefer dry heat and are grown for their fruit in CA. The high rainfall and humidity on the US East Coast cause them to produce inferior fruit as well as other problems.

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Fusca
3 hours ago, ngservet said:

I am new to the forum and would like some recommendations for palms on Seabrook Island, SC

Hi Nick, another welcome!

Meg is correct regarding the Phoenix dactylifera and you are right that they are more cold hardy than other Phoenix palms.  Another consideration for your location is salt tolerance depending on how close you are to the beach - but seems like you're pretty close!  With that in mind I think you could try seashore palm (Allagoptera arenaria) although it is probably a bit difficult to find.  I would also recommend mule palms which are a hybrid cross of pindo (Butia odorata) with queen (Syagrus romanzoffiana) although I'm not sure how salt tolerant they are.  There are many grown in Florida and they are cold hardy to zone 8b so I'd think it's worth a shot.  They also grow very fast so you can start small and get a nice sized palm rather quickly!  There are plenty of other palms that you could grow in your zone such as Livistona chinensis, L. decora, L. nitida, L. australis but I'm not sure about how they would do so close to the coast.  @Laaz is in Charleston and can probably make some good recommendations.

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kinzyjr

@ngservet A warm welcome to PalmTalk!  Some to look into:

Small Palms: Serenoa repens (green and silver), Arenga engleri, Chamaedorea sp. (costaricana, radicalis and microspadix might be viable long term), Rhapis excelsaNannorrhops ritchiana (green and silver) if you can keep them from getting to much damp cold

Larger Palms: Livistona chinensis and Livistona decora, Acrocomia totai, Mule palms ( x Butyagrus nabonnandii), you can try a few Brahea species, but they're a little more tricky in moist climates, Phoenix theophrasti if you can get it to grow like @Laaz,

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ahosey01
1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

@ngservet A warm welcome to PalmTalk!  Some to look into:

Small Palms: Serenoa repens (green and silver), Arenga engleri, Chamaedorea sp. (costaricana, radicalis and microspadix might be viable long term), Rhapis excelsaNannorrhops ritchiana (green and silver) if you can keep them from getting to much damp cold

Larger Palms: Livistona chinensis and Livistona decora, Acrocomia totai, Mule palms ( x Butyagrus nabonnandii), you can try a few Brahea species, but they're a little more tricky in moist climates, Phoenix theophrasti if you can get it to grow like @Laaz,

I like this list but I think the N. ritchiana recommendation just means eventually you got a big winter water management task on your hands.

I give a hard second to the Acrocomia totai. Would also suggest Sabal ‘Lisa’ if you can find one. Way different than other Sabals.  Also Butia species and I would like to add Rhapis multifada to this list.  Cold hardiest of the rhapis and also elegant.

You may even be able to pull off a Jubaea x Butia cross.  Those are fantastic looking palms.

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ngservet

Thank you everyone for your input. I came across the following monthly lowest minimum temperature for neighboring Edisto Beach. Including the 1985 winter which was a freak event it appears are annual mean over the past 35 years has been around 23F. Solid 9A. Furthermore we benefit from thick overhead canopy on the island due to strict restrictions on tree trimming and cutting. I am assuming this would nudge our ability to safely keep 9A/8B palms even further. I really like the Medjool Date palms but I am not sure if I would lose them? We are right on the ocean so the salt air would be something to contend with. Here is also a picture of some mature medjools that have been in the Hardeville, SC area on your way to Hilton Head. While slightly further south they are much further inland and likely a solid 8B. These did indeed survive the 2018 winter. (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3003249,-80.9559627,3a,75y,321.97h,99.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scT1iwlKTiOpL87NwZSIGMA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

 

 

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Estlander
5 minutes ago, ngservet said:. I really like the Medjool Date palms but I am not sure if I would lose them? We are right on the ocean so the salt air would be something to contend with. Here is also a picture of some mature medjools that have been in the Hardeville, SC area on your way to Hilton Head. While slightly further south they are much further inland and

I’d say they’re quite salt tolerant. Medjool Date is a very common palm here in the coastal FL panhandle with many planted right on the beachfront roads and even closer than that to the water. They’ve been there for many many many years and are doing just fine. Here’s just a few examples:

EDAC157D-3EAB-442A-90DC-30CA847A5907.jpeg

7719F41C-F30C-419B-83DF-307123F97CB3.jpeg

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B7E50B73-0F34-4A4F-8A65-3520BFBE34CC.jpeg

D632CE04-2F0B-44A2-AE9C-E6A4299CC5A7.jpeg

E8509EF2-B3AC-4390-880E-150F11C1E70E.jpeg

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Estlander

A couple more, right on the beach. 

200EA4DA-C72F-4CCD-A3F9-1DDABBF4EA91.jpeg

F311F12F-20C5-488D-8ED1-EE0CDB15EC0D.jpeg

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kinzyjr

@ngservet As @Estlander mentioned, salt doesn't bother them.  That said, @PalmatierMeg is right about certain challenges in our humid-subtropical type climates.  The first is graphiola leaf spot, which is mostly a cosmetic pain in the neck.  @Merlyn has reported that Banrot seems to solve that issue.  Another leaf spot that is a little more aggressive is Stigmina palmivora.  I'd be interested to know if Banrot has proven effective at reducing or eliminating this issue as well.

Then there's the elephant in the room; Lethal Bronzing.  This disease is running rampant in Florida right now.  If it ever gets up there, look out.  Fusarium wilt is an issue at times as well.

If you want to grow a Phoenix dactylifera, grab some Medjool dates from a grocery store and grow them from the date pits.  Cheap, easy, and you don't run the risk of bringing the disease to your property by planting a mature specimen that is likely going to be imported from Florida.

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ngservet

With regards to lethal bronzing I have read injecting the antibiotic oxytetracycline-hydrochloride into the tree has shown positive results as a preventative measure against this disease. However if the Palm shows symptoms prior to dosing the tree with this antibiotic there won’t be sufficient symptom reversal. Any experience with injecting your palms with this?

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kinzyjr
2 hours ago, ngservet said:

With regards to lethal bronzing I have read injecting the antibiotic oxytetracycline-hydrochloride into the tree has shown positive results as a preventative measure against this disease. However if the Palm shows symptoms prior to dosing the tree with this antibiotic there won’t be sufficient symptom reversal. Any experience with injecting your palms with this?

I don't have experience or knowledge of doing the injections.  You're correct that, after the fact, there has to be regular doses to keep the tree alive.  I have no knowledge if pre-injecting can stop an infection.

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ngservet

@Estlander Where these pictures taken from the panhandle? If so what do you guys see in terms of average winter lows? A night or two of upper teens I assume in the worst years? Thanks!

Edited by ngservet

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Estlander
1 hour ago, ngservet said:

@Estlander Where these pictures taken from the panhandle? If so what do you guys see in terms of average winter lows? A night or two of upper teens I assume in the worst years? Thanks!

Yes, all pics taken in Destin-Sandestin-Alys Beach-Panama City Beach. 
Never seen them get any freeze damage here. Coastal panhandle hasn’t seen below 20F since 1989 from what I’ve been able to find out from looking into to all kinds of available temperature data. 
And when it comes to lethal bronzing, I wouldn’t worry about it too much where you are. It seems it’s not as widespread in north FL and up as it is further south. Can only remember seeing one P. Dactylifera die recently , but that was of Ganoderma butt rot. It had a large conk on it. It was removed and all the other Dactylifera right next to it are still good more than a year later. 

C8B5784B-869A-4C0D-BF39-C9B213CA757F.jpeg

Edited by Estlander
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Estlander

Here are Seabrook Island average temperatures for comparison. 

0C38C0EA-EAF9-4DBD-BD7D-F8FD7C983033.jpeg

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ngservet

I would like to say that climate data is likely from Charleston International Airport which is roughly 25 mi NW of Seabrook and inland. I want to think that Seabrook would be very similar to Charleston's Downtown climate. I could be wrong but it certainly stays routinely warmer than the airport and surrounding northern suburbs.

image.png.83f17529d827e556874b92507e31494c.png

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ngservet

Either way in an 8b/9a zone every few degrees counts! 

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ngservet

@Estlanderhave you used the following for climatological data: https://w2.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=tae

This is certainly the most accurate however not sure if any of the sites listed are close to the Destin area. Maybe Panama City or Apalachicola will give you the best data for your area since they are coastal. You fall under the Tallahassee NWS office. Either way you can find all the data you want here.

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JLM
14 minutes ago, ngservet said:

@Estlanderhave you used the following for climatological data: https://w2.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=tae

This is certainly the most accurate however not sure if any of the sites listed are close to the Destin area. Maybe Panama City or Apalachicola will give you the best data for your area since they are coastal. You fall under the Tallahassee NWS office. Either way you can find all the data you want here.

Destin falls under NWS Mobile. Anywhere east of the Okaloosa/Walton County line is Tallahassee. Welcome to PT!

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ngservet

My apologies for placing Destin in the wrong forecast area!

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Estlander
53 minutes ago, ngservet said:

@Estlanderhave you used the following for climatological data: https://w2.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=tae

This is certainly the most accurate however not sure if any of the sites listed are close to the Destin area. Maybe Panama City or Apalachicola will give you the best data for your area since they are coastal. You fall under the Tallahassee NWS office. Either way you can find all the data you want here.

Areas like Gulf Breeze, Destin and Panama City Beach that have large bodies of water to the NNW of them, have a slight edge to even other coastal panhandle areas that do not have any water to moderate temperatures flowing in from the north., and thus drop a few degrees lower during freezes. Unfortunately all the stations where the weather data originates from are on the mainland and not in said microclimates.

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Laaz

It only takes a night or two in the mid teens to knock the palms back. The freeze snow we had in Jan 2018 was just as bad on the islands. At 16F all I lost was my Livistona decora & 1 of my Robusta's. Many others, Lytocaryum, syagrus, rhapis & mules all had spear pull but pulled through. Radicalis had zero damage, not even leaf burn. My buddy down town with the Totai's & Queens also had quite a bit of damage to those palms & he is always a few degrees warmer than I am.

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ngservet

@Laaz Would Sylvester’s or Medjools have survived that event?

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DAVEinMB

@ngservet i just posted some pics of some phoenix hybrids that weathered the 2018 freeze here in myrtle. Here's the link - https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61288-yardlandscaping-progress/&page=5#comments

This dactylifera also pulled through. 

image.png.a5097c5685255b0cfc233f0dea31a976.png

Welcome to Palmtalk :shaka-2:

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ngservet

Wow that’s awesome! I read that the Sylvester’s and Medjools are hardy down to 15F but was curious if that’s a dry cold tolerance?

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Laaz
58 minutes ago, ngservet said:

@Laaz Would Sylvester’s or Medjools have survived that event?

Yes, there are a bunch that made it, but also a bunch that didn't. Some times it can take a few years for them to finally die.

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DAVEinMB
2 hours ago, Laaz said:

Yes, there are a bunch that made it, but also a bunch that didn't. Some times it can take a few years for them to finally die.

I'll check back in in 2023

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ngservet
20 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

@ngservet i just posted some pics of some phoenix hybrids that weathered the 2018 freeze here in myrtle. Here's the link - https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61288-yardlandscaping-progress/&page=5#comments

This dactylifera also pulled through. 

image.png.a5097c5685255b0cfc233f0dea31a976.png

Welcome to Palmtalk :shaka-2:

Where is that dactylifera exactly located in MB?

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DAVEinMB

In North myrtle on ocean Blvd. The property had two CIDP as well but something killed them years ago

20210101_161429.jpg

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ngservet

Massive Washingtonia robusta on E Bay Street in Charleston. Remember seeing these before but they were cut down. Ironically they were gone before the 2018 Winter Event. You can see they were here for more than a decade via google maps.

 

 

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Laaz

There was a massive filifera in the McDonalds parking lot downtown that died a few years back as well.

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Laaz

Anyone in the area looking for some lytocaryum's, I have 4 7-10 gallon palms I'm willing to let go.

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Fusca
1 hour ago, Laaz said:

Anyone in the area looking for some lytocaryum's, I have 4 7-10 gallon palms I'm willing to let go.

I'm in the area, right?  :rolleyes:  Didn't your wedd. set seed recently?

Edited by Fusca

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Laaz

Not Wedd's, they are Lytocaryum hoehnei & way to large & heavy to ship.

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Laaz

This was the Filifera downtown, it quickly turned completely brown about 4 years ago & died within a few months. Probably from Fusarium.

 

filifera.jpg

Edited by Laaz
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DAVEinMB
13 hours ago, Laaz said:

Anyone in the area looking for some lytocaryum's, I have 4 7-10 gallon palms I'm willing to let go.

If you still have one when I head your way I'd be interested

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Matthew92

Some Phoenix dactylifera did get considerably damaged and a few actually did die in the 2014 polar vortex along FL Panhandle (some in Rosemary Beach). They experienced temps anywhere around 19-22 deg. Later that month in January after that big freeze, there was a freezing rain event with over 24 hours below freezing which I think did them in. If it hadn't been for the winter precip event, I think they would have survived. Without those other factors, they can take low 20's just fine but might get some frond damage around upper teens. Definitely would still recommend for your area- of course with knowledge that there's always a chance of a worse freeze than what's been experienced in recent times.

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ngservet

@Matthew92 how did the Sylvester’s fair from that event? I was down in Orange Beach Alabama a few weeks back and I have to say the Sylvester’s looked a little burnt but the Medjools looked great. 

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ngservet

Also not sure if you know GroundWorks Palms but apparently they are the king of the Medjool Date Palm trade and they advertise as hardy to 15F. I know they have a large growing nursery outside of Houston so I wonder if those specimens are more hardy than their California counterparts?

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Matthew92
1 hour ago, ngservet said:

@Matthew92 how did the Sylvester’s fair from that event? I was down in Orange Beach Alabama a few weeks back and I have to say the Sylvester’s looked a little burnt but the Medjools looked great. 

What you may have seen was salt damage. I don't think it's gotten cold enough to cause much damage to P. sylvestris along the Upper Gulf Coast this winter so far. It's possible that some did take damage in the Christmas Eve freeze in locations farther inland as I did see a few readings into the low 20's. To my knowledge, the last time P. sylvestris took significant damage on the Gulf Coast would have been from January 2018.

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