Density Gradient of Native Palm Species per 10000 sq km

[Cevven]

[ahosey01]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:51 AM, Cevven said:

This is interesting to me.

I have no idea what that small brown spot in northern Yavapai County is here in AZ.

I should go find those.

[Austinpalm]

Very interesting map, but just a little off, at least in Texas.  Both S. mexicana and brazoriensis occur in/around the coastal bend and/or north near Houstonish...  As such, there should be areas in Texas with two possibly three species.  Also, I guess there is the very slightest possibility of a fourth species hiding somewhere in there as the parentage of S. braziorensis appears to be S. minor and something besides S. mexicana. Sabal palmetto maybee....?

 

On a side note, I find it interesting that neither the needle palm nor the saw palmetto have disjunct populations in Texas.  Both grow fine and winter lows are similar or warmer than those encountered in the coldest portions of either's current range. Also there are so many other species that made the hop across the Mississippi River and hang on in the western edge of southeast USA. What prevented them?

[Turtlesteve]

The “finger” up to the GA / TN border seems highly suspect to me.  I am not able to find a reference for anything north of Weiss lake.

If those palms did exist they should be the most hardy ecotype.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Turtlesteve

[tjwalters]

I thought Sabal minor found its way north into McCurtain County, OK.  Are those not considered "native?"

[Silas_Sancona]

Don't fully trust this map either.. Other than planted Washintonia filifera / Brahea edulis ( is sited as a CA. native by various authorities ) there are no native palms to coastal areas of S. Cal /  rest of the state...

[PalmTreeDude]

The maps cool but is not 100% accurate. For example, McCurtain County, Oklahoma is not included and there are only two native palm species in Southeastern North Carolina. 

[Cevven]

9 hours ago, Turtlesteve said:

The “finger” up to the GA / TN border seems highly suspect to me.  I am not able to find a reference for anything north of Weiss lake.

If those palms did exist they should be the most hardy ecotype.

I thought the same thing when I first seen the finger because North AL is pretty cold in the winter - similar to temps where you find some of the higher elevations of NC (Hardiness Zone 7B) but that finger sorta coincides with the Longleaf Pine native range and they are probably just sabal minors at the most anyway. 

[Cevven]

5 hours ago, tjwalters said:

I thought Sabal minor found its way north into McCurtain County, OK.  Are those not considered "native?"

Naturalized but probably not native. Sabal minor is pretty damn hardy. 

[Cevven]

5 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Don't fully trust this map either.. Other than planted Washintonia filifera / Brahea edulis ( is sited as a CA. native by various authorities ) there are no native palms to coastal areas of S. Cal /  rest of the state...

Yeah I think it's confirmed they are native but it may have been transported to that via bird migration from Mexico. 

[Cevven]

5 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

The maps cool but is not 100% accurate. For example, McCurtain County, Oklahoma is not included and there are only two native palm species in Southeastern North Carolina. 

List of palm species that the map refers to:

Native Palms:

Coccothrinax argentata (Jacq.) Bailey (Florida silver palm)
Paurotis wrightii (Griseb. & Wendl.) Britton (Paurotis palm)
Pseudophoenix sargentii Wendl (Florida cherry palm)
Rhapidophyllum hystrix (Pursh) H.Wendl. & Drude
Roystonea elata (Bartr.) F. Harper (Needle palm)
Sabal etonia Swingle (Scrub palmetto)
Sabal louisiana (Darby) Bomhard (Louisiana palmetto )
Sabal minor (Jacq.) Pers (Dwarf palmetto)
Sabal palmetto (Walt.) Lodd (Cabbage-palm)
Sabal texana (O. F. Cook) Becc (Rio Grande palmetto)
Serenoa repens (Bartr.) Small (Saw palmetto)
Thrinax microcarpa Sargent (Silvertop palmetto)
Thrinax parviflora Swartz (Broom palm)
Washingtonia filifera (Linden) Wendl (Fan palm)

Naturalized palms:
Cocos nucifera Linnaeus (Coconut tree)
Phoenix dactylifera Linnaeus (Date palm)

Edited December 29, 2020 by Cevven

[Cevven]

16 hours ago, Austinpalm said:

Very interesting map, but just a little off, at least in Texas.  Both S. mexicana and brazoriensis occur in/around the coastal bend and/or north near Houstonish...  As such, there should be areas in Texas with two possibly three species.  Also, I guess there is the very slightest possibility of a fourth species hiding somewhere in there as the parentage of S. braziorensis appears to be S. minor and something besides S. mexicana. Sabal palmetto maybee....?

 

On a side note, I find it interesting that neither the needle palm nor the saw palmetto have disjunct populations in Texas.  Both grow fine and winter lows are similar or warmer than those encountered in the coldest portions of either's current range. Also there are so many other species that made the hop across the Mississippi River and hang on in the western edge of southeast USA. What prevented them?

When you progress into central texas, it gets pretty dry so so palms native to the Southeast didn't immediately naturalize in those places. 

Those species you mentioned have been planted or naturalized in TX way later but didn't grew there at first. 

[tjwalters]

5 hours ago, Cevven said:

Naturalized but probably not native. Sabal minor is pretty damn hardy. 

Source?

 

[tjwalters]

5 hours ago, Cevven said:

List of palm species that the map refers to:

Native Palms:

Coccothrinax argentata (Jacq.) Bailey (Florida silver palm)
Paurotis wrightii (Griseb. & Wendl.) Britton (Paurotis palm)
Pseudophoenix sargentii Wendl (Florida cherry palm)
Rhapidophyllum hystrix (Pursh) H.Wendl. & Drude
Roystonea elata (Bartr.) F. Harper (Needle palm)
Sabal etonia Swingle (Scrub palmetto)
Sabal louisiana (Darby) Bomhard (Louisiana palmetto )
Sabal minor (Jacq.) Pers (Dwarf palmetto)
Sabal palmetto (Walt.) Lodd (Cabbage-palm)
Sabal texana (O. F. Cook) Becc (Rio Grande palmetto)
Serenoa repens (Bartr.) Small (Saw palmetto)
Thrinax microcarpa Sargent (Silvertop palmetto)
Thrinax parviflora Swartz (Broom palm)
Washingtonia filifera (Linden) Wendl (Fan palm)

Naturalized palms:
Cocos nucifera Linnaeus (Coconut tree)
Phoenix dactylifera Linnaeus (Date palm)

Is this information from the BONAP site?  Five of the listed "Native Palms" are not valid species names.

[climate change virginia]

there are many more naturalized palms such as washingtonia robusta

[AnTonY]

On 12/28/2020 at 9:01 AM, Austinpalm said:

Very interesting map, but just a little off, at least in Texas.  Both S. mexicana and brazoriensis occur in/around the coastal bend and/or north near Houstonish...  As such, there should be areas in Texas with two possibly three species.  Also, I guess there is the very slightest possibility of a fourth species hiding somewhere in there as the parentage of S. braziorensis appears to be S. minor and something besides S. mexicana. Sabal palmetto maybee....?

 

On a side note, I find it interesting that neither the needle palm nor the saw palmetto have disjunct populations in Texas.  Both grow fine and winter lows are similar or warmer than those encountered in the coldest portions of either's current range. Also there are so many other species that made the hop across the Mississippi River and hang on in the western edge of southeast USA. What prevented them?

My money is on innate geological differences. Notice how there are more palm species on Louisiana's NORTH shore, rather than the milder winter areas of the south shore and delta.

[Cevven]

4 hours ago, tjwalters said:

Is this information from the BONAP site?  Five of the listed "Native Palms" are not valid species names.

Yeah, which ones are not valid species? 

[tjwalters]

5 minutes ago, Cevven said:

Yeah, which ones are not valid species? 

Paurotis wrightii is a synonym for Acoelorrhaphe wrightii
Roystonea elata is a synonym for R. regia
Sabal louisiana is a synonym for S. minor
Sabal texana is a synonym for S. mexicana
Thrinax microcarpa is a synonym for Leucothrinax morrisii

[PalmTreeDude]

11 hours ago, Cevven said:

Naturalized but probably not native. Sabal minor is pretty damn hardy. 

McCurtain County, Oklahoma is in the Gulf Coastal Plain and has a pretty favorable climate for native Sabal minor. Someone on here said this before, but the McCurtain County Sabal minor population is just part of the overall larger population and Oklahoma just happens to have a sliver of the land where Sabal minor is native to. If you look at Arkansas to the east of McCurtain County, there are a lot of areas where Sabal minor is native. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by PalmTreeDude
Changed native palms to native Sabal minor, added more

[climate change virginia]

4 hours ago, Cevven said:

Yeah, which ones are not valid species? 

I was just saying there are more like the queen palm

Edited December 29, 2020 by climate change virginia

[tjwalters]

53 minutes ago, climate change virginia said:

I was just saying there are more like the queen palm

My dwarf palmettos (S. minor) have naturalized here in MD z7a.  My neighbor across the street and one door down had two juveniles growing in his front garden.  They were pretty good sized before he noticed.  He asked me if I knew what kind of plants they were.   There are also plenty of seedlings and juveniles around the original palm I planted over 20 years ago, and I have them popping up in other areas around the yard.  I need to snoop around the neighborhood to see if there are any others.

[Alex High]

1 hour ago, tjwalters said:

My dwarf palmettos (S. minor) have naturalized here in MD z7a.  My neighbor across the street and one door down had two juveniles growing in his front garden.  They were pretty good sized before he noticed.  He asked me if I knew what kind of plants they were.   There are also plenty of seedlings and juveniles around the original palm I planted over 20 years ago, and I have them popping up in other areas around the yard.  I need to snoop around the neighborhood to see if there are any others.

Wow, that looks amazing! I live in Montgomery County, MD, and I have never seen Sabal minor in a garden here. Just needles and some trachys. I have visited a lot of palms in D.C. though, and the ones at the Air and Space Museum are some of the best. There are lots of naturalized seedlings under the mature needles and Sabal minor there, but the gardeners tend to rip them out. I snagged a few seedlings a couple of months ago. Definitely do some more snooping, I always love hearing about palms in the D.C. area! Take care!

PalmsUSA

Edited December 30, 2020 by PalmsUSA

[Cevven]

1 hour ago, PalmsUSA said:

Wow, that looks amazing! I live in Montgomery County, MD, and I have never seen Sabal minor in a garden here. Just needles and some trachys. I have visited a lot of palms in D.C. though, and the ones at the Air and Space Museum are some of the best. There are lots of naturalized seedlings under the mature needles and Sabal minor there, but the gardeners tend to rip them out. I snagged a few seedlings a couple of months ago. Definitely do some more snooping, I always love hearing about palms in the D.C. area! Take care!

PalmsUSA

Those are great pics, so I greatly appreciate the contribution. Yeah, in the inland south and mid atlantic (DC metro included) - palm tree planting is not very popular like it is on the southeastern coastal areas - so people there are quick to get rid of them. They want their deciduous trees so they can have their fall colors and spring blooms - they are hardwired to only grow crops and planets that are indigenous to places with colders with frequent arctic blasts like New England and the forested Midwest. I thought about throwing some sabal minor and trachy seeds in the woods here in NC but I know they will be removed like weeds eventually. 

 

[Cevven]

8 hours ago, tjwalters said:

Paurotis wrightii is a synonym for Acoelorrhaphe wrightii
Roystonea elata is a synonym for R. regia
Sabal louisiana is a synonym for S. minor
Sabal texana is a synonym for S. mexicana
Thrinax microcarpa is a synonym for Leucothrinax morrisii

Good stuff. Well, I understand a lot of what is presented as far as map and information is not always accurate. This is what this is forum is for, to get the right information about things so we always welcome to corrections of the data. 

[Cevven]

10 hours ago, AnTonY said:

My money is on innate geological differences. Notice how there are more palm species on Louisiana's NORTH shore, rather than the milder winter areas of the south shore and delta.

Yeah I notice that too, I seen Google street view of the Mississippi Delta region of Louisiana, I have yet to come across any palms in the region - at least one that's in a form of a tree. I think I seen a random banana tree in a brush along the highway near Bohemia, though. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Cevven

[amh]

22 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

The maps cool but is not 100% accurate. For example, McCurtain County, Oklahoma is not included and there are only two native palm species in Southeastern North Carolina. 

It also excludes Gonzales county in Texas, isn't there like a park there or something?

[Alex High]

36 minutes ago, Cevven said:

Those are great pics, so I greatly appreciate the contribution. Yeah, in the inland south and mid atlantic (DC metro included) - palm tree planting is not very popular like it is on the southeastern coastal areas - so people there are quick to get rid of them. They want their deciduous trees so they can have their fall colors and spring blooms - they are hardwired to only grow crops and planets that are indigenous to places with colders with frequent arctic blasts like New England and the forested Midwest. I thought about throwing some sabal minor and trachy seeds in the woods here in NC but I know they will be removed like weeds eventually. 

 

Yeah, I have thought about throwing around Sabal minor seed here in the D.C. area but it will probably be weeded out just as you say. It is unfortunate that so few people take advantage of the mid-Atlantic climate, at least in D.C. I really hope to see more gardens with palms in them in the D.C. area in the future! Thank you!

PalmsUSA

[Cevven]

2 hours ago, PalmsUSA said:

Yeah, I have thought about throwing around Sabal minor seed here in the D.C. area but it will probably be weeded out just as you say. It is unfortunate that so few people take advantage of the mid-Atlantic climate, at least in D.C. I really hope to see more gardens with palms in them in the D.C. area in the future! Thank you!

PalmsUSA

Yeah, I actually seen a lot hate for palm trees in these other forums. Granted, I can't tell people what to like or not to like but in the south, palm trees and even growing a bunch of broadleaf evergreens (outside of bushes and occasional southern magnolia and/or holly tree for ornamentation purposes) is not part of the culture here. People want their trees that lose their leaves in the winter because of they want their "four seasons" - when you tell me you strongly desire a 4 season climate, you basically telling me you want a cold ass winter. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Cevven

[ky_palm064]

The panhandle Florida gulf coast is shown as mostly 3 species- what about palmetto, minor, saw and needle?

Edited December 30, 2020 by ky_palm064
specify location

[Austinpalm]

13 hours ago, amh said:

It also excludes Gonzales county in Texas, isn't there like a park there or something?

Yes.  Palmetto State Park. It is full of S. minor.

 https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/palmetto

[Alex High]

11 hours ago, Cevven said:

Yeah, I actually seen a lot hate for palm trees in these other forums. Granted, I can't tell people what to like or not to like but in the south, palm trees and even growing a bunch of broadleaf evergreens (outside of bushes and occasional southern magnolia and/or holly tree for ornamentation purposes) is not part of the culture here. People want their trees that lose their leaves in the winter because of they want their "four seasons" - when you tell me you strongly desire a 4 season climate, you basically telling me you want a cold ass winter. 

So true! And what is really annoying is that we barely even have a 4 season climate, because the winters are just cold but usually lack much snow. I am not a huge fan of the D.C. climate, but I do wish more people would at least try growing something exotic! Thanks!

PalmsUSA

Edited December 30, 2020 by PalmsUSA

[Cevven]

 

14 hours ago, ky_palm064 said:

The panhandle Florida gulf coast is shown as mostly 3 species- what about palmetto, minor, saw and needle?

That OR Sabal Palmetto, Sabal Minor, Saw Palmetto

[Cevven]

13 hours ago, PalmsUSA said:

So true! And what is really annoying is that we barely even have a 4 season climate, because the winters are just cold but usually lack much snow. I am not a huge fan of the D.C. climate, but I do wish more people would at least try growing something exotic! Thanks!

PalmsUSA

No problem. DC may quite not be subtropical but it can be way more evergreen than it is. 

[Alex High]

11 hours ago, Cevven said:

No problem. DC may quite not be subtropical but it can be way more evergreen than it is. 

Agreed. I wish it was more evergreen. Take care!

PalmsUSA

[amh]

On 12/30/2020 at 9:07 AM, Austinpalm said:

Yes.  Palmetto State Park. It is full of S. minor.

 https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/palmetto

That's what I was hinting at. The map also excludes a good portion of the Guadalupe river; there are lots of Sabal minor growing south of canyon dam.

Most of the area shown for the hill county is full of cultivated Sabal mexicana.

Semi-related, has anyone seen naturally occurring Sabal minors in Kerr, Kendall, Gillespie, or Blanco counties?

[Brad Mondel]

So according to that map, abbeville county in SC, just one county South of me has a native palm. I wonder if anyone has documented this on palmtalk? 

[Turtlesteve]

17 minutes ago, Brad Mondel said:

So according to that map, abbeville county in SC, just one county South of me has a native palm. I wonder if anyone has documented this on palmtalk? 

I’ve never seen them there, but actually seems plausible.  I know S minor exists along the savannah river valley in the vicinity of McCormick, so the southern tip of Abbeville county could be inhabited.

[climate change virginia]

I think I have seen a sabal minor somewhere in my neighborhood in landscaping or something it looked like a shrub could have been a needle dont know it died a while ago there was some disease

Edited January 1, 2021 by climate change virginia

[Brad Mondel]

1 hour ago, Turtlesteve said:

I’ve never seen them there, but actually seems plausible.  I know S minor exists along the savannah river valley in the vicinity of McCormick, so the southern tip of Abbeville county could be inhabited.

I need to go down there and explore. I went to Calhoun Falls last summer but I didn't see any.