Ashes to ashes to palms and more palms

[DoomsDave]

About thirty years ago I read an article in the old Pacific Coast Nurseryman that discussed Palm nutritional needs.

Palms as a group LOVE potassium which is abundant in wood ashes, of which I have an abundant supply.

In season right now I generate a lot of ashes and they go on the ground around the palms.

These are Arenga engleri. Just dump them on the ground in the root zone.

 

Questions, thoughts, anyone?

 

[DoomsDave]

All my palms get lots of ashes.

Seems to be pretty good fertilizer.

Arenga engleri top and Dypsis baronii in middle and Parajubaea cocoides on bottom 

The bottom shots were taken with an iPad.

[Jubaea_James760]

I've start collecting my ash last year  A little late to the game but better late then never 

Is there any species of palms/ cycads you wouldn't give them ash? 

[96720]

I always thought ashes were real alkaline our soil is already alkaline 

[DoomsDave]

I wouldn’t worry about ashes increasing ph that much unless you go bananas 

[Chester B]

Thanks for the info. Lots of ash from the fireplace this time of year. 

[Darold Petty]

Dave, is that D. baronii one plant rootstock or did you start with multiple adjacent plants ?  My two palms only have a few stems. 

[DoomsDave]

8 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Dave, is that D. baronii one plant rootstock or did you start with multiple adjacent plants ?  My two palms only have a few stems. 

I think it’s a onesie 

18 trunks 

But could be wrong 

How are you?

[Darold Petty]

I'm sick of gardening,  I recently removed two Rhopalostylis. The  larger one  had 22 feet of trunk below the crownshaft.  I dearly would love a road trip in my little truck to SoCal, but that's not happening anytime soon !  

[WaianaeCrider]

Do you have a wood burning stove for heat?  What is the source of the ashes?

[sonoranfans]

12 hours ago, 96720 said:

I always thought ashes were real alkaline our soil is already alkaline 

yeah the main addition wood ash is 25% CaCO3 so its biggest impack is "liming".  Probably not good for already alkaline soil since the rise in pH actually decreases the availabiity of many nutrients.  https://www.purdue.edu/hla/sites/yardandgarden/wood-ash-in-the-garden/

" As soil alkalinity increases and the pH rises above 7.0, nutrients such as phosphorus, iron, boron, manganese, copper, zinc and potassium become chemically tied to the soil and less available for plant use."

Here is a link with contents of wood ash:  there are heavy metals in it like in NPK fert, not sure its an efficient way to put potassium down while controlling heavy metal addition(lead cadmium etc)

https://extension.umaine.edu/publications/2279e/#:~:text=Wood ash is about four,1-3 (N-P-K).

For my acidic sandy soil its not a pH problem, but when I was in arizona I had alkaline soil pH >8 and it would probably be a mistake.

[96720]

Thank you that’s what I’ve always heard I have a lot of ashes but I’ve always thrown them away 

[sonoranfans]

1 hour ago, 96720 said:

Thank you that’s what I’ve always heard I have a lot of ashes but I’ve always thrown them away 

Slash and burn agriculture has been a boon to agriculture in many places in the world for many tens o thousands of years.  For many areas in the world it is a good technique that has fed millions more effectively, its just not good for alkaline soil.  If you have a high calcium clay, adding more calcium can cause increased Mg, K, N deficiency and more.  That said, I dont worry about spreading some around my yard as my pH is closer to 6.  

[DoomsDave]

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

yeah the main addition wood ash is 25% CaCO3 so its biggest impack is "liming".  Probably not good for already alkaline soil since the rise in pH actually decreases the availabiity of many nutrients.  https://www.purdue.edu/hla/sites/yardandgarden/wood-ash-in-the-garden/

" As soil alkalinity increases and the pH rises above 7.0, nutrients such as phosphorus, iron, boron, manganese, copper, zinc and potassium become chemically tied to the soil and less available for plant use."

Here is a link with contents of wood ash:  there are heavy metals in it like in NPK fert, not sure its an efficient way to put potassium down while controlling heavy metal addition(lead cadmium etc)

https://extension.umaine.edu/publications/2279e/#:~:text=Wood ash is about four,1-3 (N-P-K).

For my acidic sandy soil its not a pH problem, but when I was in arizona I had alkaline soil pH >8 and it would probably be a mistake.

Interesting point!

The conventional wisdom is that soils here are alkaline, and the water is, too.

However,  well-tended garden soil, with plenty of organics added to it, will lower the Ph a lot. I have camellias in the ground, which are acid soil plants, and they seem to have no problem with the wood ashes. Soil tests have tended to be around neutral, more or less. Also, the biggest problem with alkalinity is also a lack of certain trace elements. That's a big problem in desert areas, where queen palms are notorious for yellowing, in spite of plenty of water and fertilizer. That's why a big deal is made of micronutrients.

The ashes aren't the only things I dump on my palms. I also put wood chips for mulch, and dig in dead palm leaves and other quick decaying dead stuff. What I've strived for, and apparently gotten, is kind of a forest, which tends towards the acid side.

That said, too many wood ashes can be a problem. The biggest reason for that would be either a wooden building burning to the ground, or a forest fire, like the ones they've been having up north. In a situation like that, the sheer amount of ashes will raise the Ph. That's like a dump truck of ash in a small place, a far far cry from the little bit I do.

One other variable is that the wood from some trees far more alkaline ash than others. Some ashes have up to five times the K content of others, which is interesting. I suppose it might make a cool study of its own.

[DoomsDave]

10 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

Do you have a wood burning stove for heat?  What is the source of the ashes?

I have two fireplaces, in my two living rooms. I affectionately call them the Tree-ma-toria. I use them for heat in the winter months, unless I have company in which case I fire up the gas furnace.

[Darold Petty]

So, no more road kill compost ?  

[WaianaeCrider]

34 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

I have two fireplaces, in my two living rooms. I affectionately call them the Tree-ma-toria. I use them for heat in the winter months, unless I have company in which case I fire up the gas furnace.

Didn't think Calf environmental laws allowed burning wood any more.  LOL

[DoomsDave]

37 minutes ago, WaianaeCrider said:

Didn't think Calf environmental laws allowed burning wood any more.  LOL

Not trash 

But fireplaces or outdoor campfires etc no problem 

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

So, no more road kill compost ?  

Not in a long long while!

[SHEP]

Burning wood for fires is allowed in Bay Area, we have alerts that tell us when the air is bad, and it is a no-burn day.  They actually have "cops" that can cite you, although, usually first offense is a warning.  We have a fuel efficient wood stove, that is certified, and, we can prove it, so that we can burn any day, and, not get cited.  I worry that they would knock on the door, and, if I can't find the documentation, I would have to go to court anyway, and, fight them. 

We have a neighbor who has asthma, and, he would be the first one to turn us in.  He is the same neighbor that put glue in my locks on my 1967 VW Bug. 

I am the original owner, and, at that time,  the car was rusty in some spots, and, one window was duct taped to the car, because the rubber seals were not doing the job.   I bought it in when I a freshman in high school.  This neighbor would always call the cops, if my car sat longer than 3 days at the curb, because my car was rusty, and, did not fit in character of how a house was supped to look, in this particular cull de sac  He came over one day, and told us he had company coming from Australia, and, would we put the car in the garage.  Imagine, after all the tickets, warning the car was parked more than three days, etc.   So, I told him, no way. He upped my punishment, and, late one night, only a day later, he put wood glue in the locks one time just to be a jerk.  Of course, we called the police, they talked to him, and, agreed with me "he did it".  But, they refused to cite him.  It took me six months to find new locks that would work for a '67 Bug.  I could not take him to small claims, because the cops didn't give him a ticket.  This neighbor has a Mercedes, and, my husband, John, would put signs on the window from the inside saying, "I'm German too!"   We also have a very, expensive engine inside- Hand built using exclusively new parts, based on an engine block much bigger than the original.  Our mechanic was building it for his brother, and, we talked him into selling it too us, $2500!.  So, the purpose of the money cost diatribe, is that John, would also put a sign up, "I'm beautiful inside!" .  Karma will get that guy.

If anyone is interested, I can post a photo of my bug, and, its engine, but, you will have to beg.

OH YES- I FORGOT TO MENTION, I GOT MY COVID VACCINE YESTERDAY! 

I AM ON ER CALL AT THE HOSPITAL, SO, I GOT ON THE PRIORITY LIST.  NO REACTIONS OR ANYTHING. I JUST FEEL VERY PRIVILEGED FOR THIS ONE BENEFIT, FROM ALL THE NIGHTS I HAVE HAD TO GET OUT OF BED, AND, GO IN AND SEE SOMEONE.

 

[96720]

I think I will just stay with mulch I never throw any leafs away I just blow them off the paths and into my jungle I have leafs 3-4’’ thick in some places they can just decompose and add their micronutrients that way.

[Fusca]

5 hours ago, SHEP said:

If anyone is interested, I can post a photo of my bug

I'm interested in seeing your VW!    The name of the VW bug in Brasil is "Fusca".

[Kim]

@SHEP Way back in the dark ages when I was a student at Sonoma State, my roommate drove a faded yellow '57 VW bug, really tiny old thing. I remember how the wind blew us around on our way out to Tomales Bay and the Marshall Tavern to hear live music.  Another close friend also drove an old black VW bug and I recall the windshield wipers were not up to handling the Sonoma County downpours. Those were the days! I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of your old bug.

[sonoranfans]

The other gorilla in the room besides lowered nutrient uptake in alkaline soils is metal content.  Things like Pb, Cd, As exist in all NPK fertilizer, and some plants tend to draw them out, phytoremediate the soil.  These plants/trees tha are good phyto remediators would have ash that is concentrated in heavy metals that are taken up by the tree and remain in the biomass for decades.   Upon burning, the metals are concentrated as none are lost in burning.  I dont use wood ash a lot because of this.  With ash, I dont know how much heavy metals I am putting down, at least sulpomag has a spec.  With fertilizer, I see an EPA spec formaximum allowed heavy metals content, ash is a wild card and all else equal, the older tree will have a higher concentration of heavy metals in its ash.  Williow is one of the worst concentrators of heavy metals and some species of eucalyptus are cited as remediators so they are probably producing high metals content ash.

[DoomsDave]

13 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

The other gorilla in the room besides lowered nutrient uptake in alkaline soils is metal content.  Things like Pb, Cd, As exist in all NPK fertilizer, and some plants tend to draw them out, phytoremediate the soil.  These plants/trees tha are good phyto remediators would have ash that is concentrated in heavy metals that are taken up by the tree and remain in the biomass for decades.   Upon burning, the metals are concentrated as none are lost in burning.  I dont use wood ash a lot because of this.  With ash, I dont know how much heavy metals I am putting down, at least sulpomag has a spec.  With fertilizer, I see an EPA spec formaximum allowed heavy metals content, ash is a wild card and all else equal, the older tree will have a higher concentration of heavy metals in its ash.  Williow is one of the worst concentrators of heavy metals and some species of eucalyptus are cited as remediators so they are probably producing high metals content ash.

Fascinating!

Any numbers for palms?

[Josh-O]

yer baronii is nuts Dave!

[sonoranfans]

10 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Fascinating!

Any numbers for palms?

The research is far from complete, palms may or may not be good phytoremediators. If you yank the plants and dispose of them in a furnace you would get high heavy metal ash at some point as it concentrates.  The way I look at my yard is that burning my own palm leaves does not increase heavy metals in the yard, but having them carried away does decrease heavy metals.  Bringing wood from other yards into mine as ash increases heavy metals in my yard.   

[ExperimentalGrower]

I’ve used wood ash on many plants for years to good effect but have hesitated with the palms not really knowing if it’ll skew the pH. But I might give a test reading this thread now.

[ExperimentalGrower]

On 12/19/2020 at 5:34 PM, DoomsDave said:

All my palms get lots of ashes.

Seems to be pretty good fertilizer.

Arenga engleri top and Dypsis baronii in middle and Parajubaea cocoides on bottom 

The bottom shots were taken with an iPad.

That is a great looking baronii. Clearly loves its spot.

[DoomsDave]

4 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

That is a great looking baronii. Clearly loves its spot.

Thanks! I think it's as much as function of the soil as any ashes.

[DoomsDave]

4 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

I’ve used wood ash on many plants for years to good effect but have hesitated with the palms not really knowing if it’ll skew the pH. But I might give a test reading this thread now.

As noted above, palms, as a group, aren't really that sensitive to ph, at least not compared to plants like Azaleas, etc.

Based on your prior observations, I doubt you'll have any problems.

[DoomsDave]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:07 PM, Josh-O said:

yer baronii is nuts Dave!

OMG! You're still alive! Good to hear from you again!

Happy holidays!

[DoomsDave]

On 12/22/2020 at 5:57 AM, sonoranfans said:

The research is far from complete, palms may or may not be good phytoremediators. If you yank the plants and dispose of them in a furnace you would get high heavy metal ash at some point as it concentrates.  The way I look at my yard is that burning my own palm leaves does not increase heavy metals in the yard, but having them carried away does decrease heavy metals.  Bringing wood from other yards into mine as ash increases heavy metals in my yard.   

Interesting. Any thoughts on how to test for heavy metals? I'd be curious to see for myself.

[sonoranfans]

5 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Interesting. Any thoughts on how to test for heavy metals? I'd be curious to see for myself.

I take some soil to an environmental lab.  They will need to use some sophisticated instrumentation, probably plasma emission spectroscopy.  It wont be cheap, probably a few hundred for the analysis.  There are no user test kits that can be used for that.

[ExperimentalGrower]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

I take some soil to an environmental lab.  They will need to use some sophisticated instrumentation, probably plasma emission spectroscopy.  It wont be cheap, probably a few hundred for the analysis.  There are no user test kits that can be used for that.

But then again, is it necessary if you’re not consuming anything being grown in the area where wood ash lands?

[Josh-O]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:42 AM, DoomsDave said:

OMG! You're still alive! Good to hear from you again!

Happy holidays!

im still around lol

 

Merry Christmas amigo