Sabal urseana vs sabal palmetto

[EastCanadaTropicals]

Is the inland sabal urseana variety harder or faster growing than sabal palmetto? 

[Fusca]

I personally do not know if Sabal uresana is more cold hardy or faster growing, but I do know that it is bluer and more drought tolerant than S. palmetto.

[Collectorpalms]

I’d say its growth rate is pretty good with right conditions. Slightly faster to Sabal Mexicana as far as growth size and hardiness. So much faster than Palmetto with heat. I planted both and Uresana after about year 5 is faster to put height on. Both a tad less leaf hardy than palmetto. But mature specimens probably just as bud hardy. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[EastCanadaTropicals]

Are mexicana and ursena both as hardy though? And is Mexicana faster than sabal palmetto 

[PalmatierMeg]

Q) Are mexicana and ursena both as hardy (as palmetto)?

A) Maybe or close to it. Uresana struggled and eventually died here in SWFL and I wonder if it prefers drier heat.

Q) is Mexicana faster than sabal palmetto?

A) All the large trunking Sabals are faster than palmetto. Palmetto is by far the smallest of the trunking Sabals.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

Might grow bald head island sabal and give extra protection for the leaves so it doesn't have like, 3 fronds

[EastCanadaTropicals]

Or silver sabal urseana

[Jubaea_James760]

Try both. 

[EastCanadaTropicals]

I think I'll stick with urseana because younger sabal palmetto look a bit ugly to me. Sabal urseana is much nicer but I'll need extreme protection for both, I'm not even in zone 6  

[EastCanadaTropicals]

Southern Quebec and Southern Ontario have warm summers so I might be fine with urseana and bald head island sabal.  

[EastCanadaTropicals]

Not sure about Mexicana Brownsville, a city in its native range is even warm enough for coconut palms 

[EastCanadaTropicals]

I have a small garden so I'll have to stick with one because I'm also planning chamerops in my warmest microclimates

[buffy]

Sabal uresana (silver form) starts to show damage earlier than Sabal palmetto, probably around 15F. Both S. palmetto and S. mexicana are more leaf hardy. If you're truely 5B, I'd stick to varieties of S. minors that you can protect easily. S. etonia is worth a try also.  I think trunking palms are too much to ask.  

[EastCanadaTropicals]

I'll try etonia but I'm trying to push the boundaries of my climate. Also yes I'm zone 5b 

[EastCanadaTropicals]

14 minutes ago, buffy said:

Sabal uresana (silver form) starts to show damage earlier than Sabal palmetto, probably around 15F. Both S. palmetto and S. mexicana are more leaf hardy. If you're truely 5B, I'd stick to varieties of S. minors that you can protect easily. S. etonia is worth a try also.  I think trunking palms are too much to ask.  

So sabal etonia and miamiensis is hardier than palmetto?

Edited December 11, 2020 by EastCanadaTropicals

[PalmatierMeg]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:29 PM, EastCanadaTropicals said:

So sabal etonia and miamiensis is hardier than palmetto?

Debatable. I'd say yes as long as their growing point stayed underground but in 5b does your soil freeze and how deep? I'm not sure whether their growing points can survive in frozen ground of a 5b winter. Your best bet is one of the northern variations of Sabal minor: Cherokee, Alabama, McCurtain. But you will surely have to protect both the palm and the ground around it with heating cables. After one of your winters, how long does summer last and how it does it get? Sabal minor is reputedly the second cold hardiest palm in the world after the needle palm but that cold hardiness comes with a tradeoff: both species require long, hot summers to recover and thrive before the next winter. What is a hot summer where you live? How long does summer last? I'm talking 25-30C+ almost every day for at least 3-4 months, preferably longer.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

17 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Debatable. I'd say yes as long as their growing point stayed underground but in 5b does your soil freeze and how deep? I'm not sure whether their growing points can survive in frozen ground of a 5b winter. Your best bet is one of the northern variations of Sabal minor: Cherokee, Alabama, McCurtain. But you will surely have to protect both the palm and the ground around it with heating cables. After one of your winters, how long does summer last and how it does it get? Sabal minor is reputedly the second cold hardiest palm in the world after the needle palm but that cold hardiness comes with a tradeoff: both species require long, hot summers to recover and thrive before the next winter. What is a hot summer where you live? How long does summer last? I'm talking 25-30C+ almost every day for at least 3-4 months, preferably longer.

I will put mulch and Quebec's summers are ussualy 26-30 degrees Celsius. In heat waves they sometimes even go up to 35c.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

I'm still gonna try urseana in my warmest microclimate because sabal Louisiana and sabal minor are too slow. Also i want my sabal etonia to produce a trunk.  

[EastCanadaTropicals]

In some years, the soil freezes in late November to December right before it snows

[EastCanadaTropicals]

I'm not that far away to zone 6a, according to the interactive hardiness zone map

[EastCanadaTropicals]

I will protect the leaves so it keeps it's fronds

[Advective]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:23 PM, EastCanadaTropicals said:

Not sure about Mexicana Brownsville, a city in its native range is even warm enough for coconut palms 

Mexicana is a tricky one. Mine starts taking leaf damage at 17-18ºF (-8ºC), yet I've seen a specimen take zero damage from 11ºF (-12ºC).

Maybe there's two genetic strains?

[Matt N- Dallas]

In my experience of growing from seed in TX- seedlings of uresana have been slower growing than s. minor & s. louisiana. 

[Fusca]

3 hours ago, Advective said:

Maybe there's two genetic strains?

Exactly, the first 2 statements on this thread on this same page is devoted exclusively to this idea.

 

[EastCanadaTropicals]

5 hours ago, Matt N- Dallas said:

In my experience of growing from seed in TX- seedlings of uresana have been slower growing than s. minor & s. louisiana. 

maybe they pick up speed once they get trunked

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, Fusca said:

Exactly, the first 2 statements on this thread on this same page is devoted exclusively to this idea.

 

Sorry @Advective, I see now that you were asking about mexicana and I thought you were asking about uresana.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:15 PM, buffy said:

Sabal uresana (silver form) starts to show damage earlier than Sabal palmetto, probably around 15F. Both S. palmetto and S. mexicana are more leaf hardy. If you're truely 5B, I'd stick to varieties of S. minors that you can protect easily. S. etonia is worth a try also.  I think trunking palms are too much to ask.  

I'm actually thinking about growing sabal Birmingham.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:57 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

Debatable. I'd say yes as long as their growing point stayed underground but in 5b does your soil freeze and how deep? I'm not sure whether their growing points can survive in frozen ground of a 5b winter. Your best bet is one of the northern variations of Sabal minor: Cherokee, Alabama, McCurtain. But you will surely have to protect both the palm and the ground around it with heating cables. After one of your winters, how long does summer last and how it does it get? Sabal minor is reputedly the second cold hardiest palm in the world after the needle palm but that cold hardiness comes with a tradeoff: both species require long, hot summers to recover and thrive before the next winter. What is a hot summer where you live? How long does summer last? I'm talking 25-30C+ almost every day for at least 3-4 months, preferably longer.

Yeah the soil freezes.

[PalmatierMeg]

17 hours ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

Yeah the soil freezes.

Does your soil freeze solid and stay that way for weeks/months with no thaw or warmup until spring in May?, June? If so, I have trouble envisioning that any palm will survive in the ground without heroic protection and intervention. You will get better results growing your Sabals in pots and keeping them indoors during winter. Or mound planting them in a heated conservatory or greenhouse. Palms did not evolve to endure lengthy arctic-like conditions. They are not true trees as are dicot trees. They cannot go dormant during winter and are unable to make provisions like true trees to do so. They lack the structures to make that possible. They are relatives of grasses whose trunks act as straws to transport water and nutrients.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

43 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Does your soil freeze solid and stay that way for weeks/months with no thaw or warmup until spring in May?, June? If so, I have trouble envisioning that any palm will survive in the ground without heroic protection and intervention. You will get better results growing your Sabals in pots and keeping them indoors during winter. Or mound planting them in a heated conservatory or greenhouse. Palms did not evolve to endure lengthy arctic-like conditions. They are not true trees as are dicot trees. They cannot go dormant during winter and are unable to make provisions like true trees to do so. They lack the structures to make that possible. They are relatives of grasses whose trunks act as straws to transport water and nutrients.

Soil stops freezing in March.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

44 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Does your soil freeze solid and stay that way for weeks/months with no thaw or warmup until spring in May?, June? If so, I have trouble envisioning that any palm will survive in the ground without heroic protection and intervention. You will get better results growing your Sabals in pots and keeping them indoors during winter. Or mound planting them in a heated conservatory or greenhouse. Palms did not evolve to endure lengthy arctic-like conditions. They are not true trees as are dicot trees. They cannot go dormant during winter and are unable to make provisions like true trees to do so. They lack the structures to make that possible. They are relatives of grasses whose trunks act as straws to transport water and nutrients.

The soil freezes from The very end of novemeber to Late February.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:57 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

Debatable. I'd say yes as long as their growing point stayed underground but in 5b does your soil freeze and how deep? I'm not sure whether their growing points can survive in frozen ground of a 5b winter. Your best bet is one of the northern variations of Sabal minor: Cherokee, Alabama, McCurtain. But you will surely have to protect both the palm and the ground around it with heating cables. After one of your winters, how long does summer last and how it does it get? Sabal minor is reputedly the second cold hardiest palm in the world after the needle palm but that cold hardiness comes with a tradeoff: both species require long, hot summers to recover and thrive before the next winter. What is a hot summer where you live? How long does summer last? I'm talking 25-30C+ almost every day for at least 3-4 months, preferably longer.

So im fine in that case.

[PalmatierMeg]

Thanks for answering. I looked at a few internet maps of Quebec Province. Do you live near Quebec City? If not, what is the closest large town to you?

[EastCanadaTropicals]

11 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Thanks for answering. I looked at a few internet maps of Quebec Province. Do you live near Quebec City? If not, what is the closest large town to you?

In a large town Near Montreal. Its a warmer zone 5b since Montreal has 6a microclimates from the urban heat island.

Edited January 10, 2021 by EastCanadaTropicals

[ahosey01]

13 minutes ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

In a large town Near Montreal. Its a warmer zone 5b in good microclimates.

I really think planting Sabal uresana in-ground in your climate is probably a waste of time.

There are a Sonoran Desert native.  At higher elevations in the Sonoran Desert like Ures (where S. uresana got its name) summer highs are, on average, 85F-95F (29F-35F), often up to and above 38C.  At mid-low elevations in the Sonoran Desert, daytime highs are never below 38C  in the summer and typically above 40C.  I had like 50-something days above 43C this year.  Looking at data for Montreal, the warmest you've been in the last 60 years was 37C, and the coldest was -37C.

I'm all for trying but I see no way on earth you could swing S. uresana at your place.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

10 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I really think planting Sabal uresana in-ground in your climate is probably a waste of time.

There are a Sonoran Desert native.  At higher elevations in the Sonoran Desert like Ures (where S. uresana got its name) summer highs are, on average, 85F-95F (29F-35F), often up to and above 38C.  At mid-low elevations in the Sonoran Desert, daytime highs are never below 38C  in the summer and typically above 40C.  I had like 50-something days above 43C this year.  Looking at data for Montreal, the warmest you've been in the last 60 years was 37C, and the coldest was -37C.

I'm all for trying but I see no way on earth you could swing S. uresana at your place.

I'm putting serious protection, I'm experimenting, I will not take no for an answer.

[Chester B]

No palm can survive Montreal and frozen ground. You need to have a heated shelter that keeps the ground around your palm thawed at all times. It’s that or pots. 
 

I’m from Toronto and it is significantly warmer than Montreal. Some parts of the city are 7a and I can tell you there are no palms there in the ground without as Meg said “Heroic protection”. I’ve been to Montreal in winter and it’s downright frigid in comparison. Potted palms are your best bet. 
 

Mike Page was the palm guy in Montreal and he used to have videos of his elaborate protection methods. I’ve heard he’s passed away now so you may not be able see his YouTube videos anymore. You have mentioned James Palms in another post. Follow what he does exactly if you want to try a palm in the ground. He lives in Norval which is 5b as well due to its elevation and distance from Lake Ontario. 
 

Before I moved here I was growing many cold hardy palms from seed. I lived in zone 6B in Oakville, Ontario 500’ from Lake Ontario and my plan was to sink the pots in the ground over summer so they looked like they were in ground and then in late fall pull them out into a heated sunroom. The only palms I would consider protecting are Sabal minor and needle palms due to their hardiness and short height.  Some winters I only got a light dusting of snow and the ground remained thawed for most of the winter. Even with that those palms need a lot of help. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Chester B

[EastCanadaTropicals]

11 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I really think planting Sabal uresana in-ground in your climate is probably a waste of time.

There are a Sonoran Desert native.  At higher elevations in the Sonoran Desert like Ures (where S. uresana got its name) summer highs are, on average, 85F-95F (29F-35F), often up to and above 38C.  At mid-low elevations in the Sonoran Desert, daytime highs are never below 38C  in the summer and typically above 40C.  I had like 50-something days above 43C this year.  Looking at data for Montreal, the warmest you've been in the last 60 years was 37C, and the coldest was -37C.

I'm all for trying but I see no way on earth you could swing S. uresana at your place.

I wrap it, then put lots of c9 Christmas lights, put a blanket, ad a box over it, and make sure the palm is in a south facing wall. It might not look that good, but it's worth a shot. If it dies, I replace it with a sabal Birmingham.

[EastCanadaTropicals]

2 minutes ago, Chester B said:

No palm can survive Montreal and frozen ground. You need to have a heated shelter that keeps the ground around your palm thawed at all times. It’s that or pots. 
 

I’m from Toronto and it is significantly warmer than Montreal. Some parts of the city are 7a and I can tell you there are no palms there in the ground without as Meg said “Heroic protection”. I’ve been to Montreal in winter and it’s downright frigid in comparison. Potted palms are your best bet. 
 

Mike Page was the palm guy in Montreal and he used to have videos of his elaborate protection methods. I’ve heard he’s passed away now so you may not be able see his YouTube videos anymore. You have mentioned James Palms in another post. Follow what he does exactly if you want to try a palm in the ground. He lives in Norval which is 5b as well due to its elevation and distance from Lake Ontario. 

I know, I've looked at those guys for tips and they are great.

[ahosey01]

3 minutes ago, EastCanadaTropicals said:

I wrap it, then put lots of c9 Christmas lights, put a blanket, ad a box over it, and make sure the palm is in a south facing wall. It might not look that good, but it's worth a shot. If it dies, I replace it with a sabal Birmingham.

Keep in mind this guy is like just over 10 years old when thinking about protection: