My first time ever having to move palms inside because it’s cold out

[sonoranfans]

Hit 41F all my 10a seedlings left outside under palm canopy, no problem.   Once you get that canopy and windbreak, it changes the game. 

[Lou-StAugFL]

34 degrees here in St. Augustine South near the Intracoastal Waterway instead of the 39 predicted.  The coldest early Dec. night I remember in a long time here.  It was 40 near the house but when I put the thermometer in the middle of the front yard it registered 34.  No frost at my place but 1/4 mile away tons of frost in the open areas. 

[Johnny Palmseed]

4 hours ago, chad2468emr said:

This is what's stressing me out so much! All my palms got DUMPED on by torrential downpours the morning this front moved through, so I'm really hating the fact that we have another 10 days or so of chilly weather ahead of us.

I wouldn’t worry about the rain. I believe well watered palms are better off than dry. The cold temps and wind can desiccate a plant. The real problem with rain and cold is when it is prolonged. When you get the “New England fall days” of cloudy, rainy, windy with cool/cold temps is when you will have a problem for sure. Most palms can tolerate some of these things but not all at the same time.

[JLM]

Today at about 3pm CST i went out and looked at one of my queens, it has burnt tips. The very tips of the leaflets are brown on all the new growth this year. This doesnt really matter, but just figured i would post about it.

[Kiplin]

We got down to 39 last night. Brought in the lipsticks (will probably be in for a while) and the seedlings. Left the a. Vestiarias (in the ground unde canopy) and the coconut. I wrapped the coconut and threw a halogen light under the skirt which kept it at around 50 for the night. Buccaneer, kentiopsis, c. Macrocarpa/houailou/hookeri all went unprotected. Everything looks good so far!

[Reeverse]

No frost over here on the coast low was 41. But our shop is 10 miles west of 95 in Ormond and heavy frost low of 33. 

[NickJames]

1 minute ago, Reeverse said:

No frost over here on the coast low was 41. But our shop is 10 miles west of 95 in Ormond and heavy frost low of 33. 

Omg! I would’ve died if I got that much. Luckily it was very very patchy in Mosaic. 

[Reeverse]

Yes it was bad west of 95 in the country. I couldn't believe the difference.  Thankful we knew it was going to frost with those calm winds and put everything in the cold frame. 

[JLM]

Looks like another frost might be possible here tonight. Forecasted low of 40F and its already fallen below the forecasted low. Current temp of 39F. I say might because temps are going to start warming slowly throughout the night, so 38F might be the ultimate low. No wraps on the queens, only thing inside currently is the bottle palm. Everything else is outside under the patio cover, might bring in the foxtail if temps threaten below 36F.

[NickJames]

26 minutes ago, JLM said:

Looks like another frost might be possible here tonight. Forecasted low of 40F and its already fallen below the forecasted low. Current temp of 39F. I say might because temps are going to start warming slowly throughout the night, so 38F might be the ultimate low. No wraps on the queens, only thing inside currently is the bottle palm. Everything else is outside under the patio cover, might bring in the foxtail if temps threaten below 36F.

Same here, already below the projection ! Hoping for some wind and clouds soon...just need a tiny little nudge off the ocean and I’ll be set. 

[kinzyjr]

Temps in the yard ranged from 37F to 39F.  Decided to throw a clay pot over top of some new plantings, but overall, everything here should be fine at those temperatures.  Airport already has 44F on a night where we're supposed to get down to 42F for a low.  Wouldn't be surprised if we hit 40F or slightly less.

 

[Jim in Los Altos]

On 11/30/2020 at 7:43 PM, kinzyjr said:

For us up this way, mild winter = nothing below a short duration 30F-35F event.  I wish I could tell you that the whole "zone 10 urban heat island" thing makes those of us in cities impervious to freezes and cold events, but unfortunately we still need to construct an east to west mountain range at the top of Canada to keep all the cold air from plunging down the continent.

@NickJames From the look of it, this cold event has a similar trajectory to the brief radiational event in January 2008, only weaker and coming before the water has had a chance to cool off.  During that event, the weather stations on the east side of the state held higher temperatures than the western side by a significant margin.  Even Fernandina Beach stayed above 30F vs. those of us inland in Polk getting hit with the mid and high 20s. That means you'll probably not have to worry about losing anything from this event and will likely stay milder than the 37F we're figuring to have overnight tomorrow at our airport.  Monitor the temperature - Daytona might not even go below 40F.

Those I hope aren’t LED lights. From their whiteness, I’m assuming they are and won’t generate any beneficial heat. You need old fashioned incandescent c7 or c9 bulbs to warm things up.!

[CodyORB]

37F out more frost

[NickJames]

[PalmatierMeg]

35.4F low in Daytona Beach? Ow, ow, ow! Sorry to see that.

[ahosey01]

This whole thread is super interesting to me.  What cold temps look like from one place in the US to the next is crazy.

Here in Wickenburg, AZ we've hit the mid-to-high 20's every single night now for almost three weeks.  I haven't protected a thing, including several aloes and a Bismarckia.  Haven't seen frost once - don't know if that has to do with the low humidity or what.  I guess I don't fully understand the mechanisms that create frost.  By noon, we're back up to 75-80.  Nothing has been phased by any of this.  Interestingly enough - when we do get wet or windy, overnight temperatures stay higher than on clear nights.

Of course I don't have any Cocos nucifera planted, but to see you guys get nailed with that kind of frost without even dipping below freezing is wild.  We're also constantly within like 10 degrees or less of our record low here, every single night.  You guys' record lows are like freak once-in-a-decade events that present completely different weather than is normal and kill off a ton of your stuff.  Here, I think we could hit a record overnight low and the daytime might just be a little cooler than normal.  Our lows last maybe an hour at most - yours last hours.  I have a suspicion that what would be killed off by a 25 degree weather event where you're at would probably not even burn in 25 here.

Weather is so crazy.

 

[NickJames]

42 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

This whole thread is super interesting to me.  What cold temps look like from one place in the US to the next is crazy.

Here in Wickenburg, AZ we've hit the mid-to-high 20's every single night now for almost three weeks.  I haven't protected a thing, including several aloes and a Bismarckia.  Haven't seen frost once - don't know if that has to do with the low humidity or what.  I guess I don't fully understand the mechanisms that create frost.  By noon, we're back up to 75-80.  Nothing has been phased by any of this.  Interestingly enough - when we do get wet or windy, overnight temperatures stay higher than on clear nights.

Of course I don't have any Cocos nucifera planted, but to see you guys get nailed with that kind of frost without even dipping below freezing is wild.  We're also constantly within like 10 degrees or less of our record low here, every single night.  You guys' record lows are like freak once-in-a-decade events that present completely different weather than is normal and kill off a ton of your stuff.  Here, I think we could hit a record overnight low and the daytime might just be a little cooler than normal.  Our lows last maybe an hour at most - yours last hours.  I have a suspicion that what would be killed off by a 25 degree weather event where you're at would probably not even burn in 25 here.

Weather is so crazy.

 

I studied meteorology so I can explain it a little bit...

I just picked a random weather station in Arizona as an example. 
 

The humidity is 50% and your temperature is more than double the dew point. This will never create frost, as dew is required to create frost. Those conditions are bone dry (to a Floridian). 
 

Then, compare it to mine - a temperature within 1 degree of the dew point and humidity of 99% - perfect condition for dew and/or frost. 

Cold can advect in (here on the FL East coast, on a NW wind) or it can be caused radiationally from heat leaving Earth on a clear night. In Arizona, dry conditions help air heat and cool more efficiently - which is why Arizona has such drastic changes between daytime highs and nighttime lows. 
 

Clouds and wind make radiational cooling more difficult. Not only do clouds act like a blanket (trapping Heat on Earth), but wind helps mix the layers of air. As many on here have explained, during radiational cooling, the top of a palm may be significantly warmer than the base. Wind helps mix that warmer air down to the ground. 
 

 

[ahosey01]

17 minutes ago, NickJames said:

I studied meteorology so I can explain it a little bit...

I just picked a random weather station in Arizona as an example. 
 

The humidity is 50% and your temperature is more than double the dew point. This will never create frost, as dew is required to create frost. Those conditions are bone dry (to a Floridian). 
 

Then, compare it to mine - a temperature within 1 degree of the dew point and humidity of 99% - perfect condition for dew and/or frost. 

Cold can advect in (here on the FL East coast, on a NW wind) or it can be caused radiationally from heat leaving Earth on a clear night. In Arizona, dry conditions help air heat and cool more efficiently - which is why Arizona has such drastic changes between daytime highs and nighttime lows. 
 

Clouds and wind make radiational cooling more difficult. Not only do clouds act like a blanket (trapping Heat on Earth), but wind helps mix the layers of air. As many on here have explained, during radiational cooling, the top of a palm may be significantly warmer than the base. Wind helps mix that warmer air down to the ground. 
 

 

This is interesting and also helpful.

Where I'm at - the dew point and humidity are even lower.  This morning's temp was 26F in my backyard with a dew point of 9F.

Another thing that I would say is that I believe the absolutely wild daily temperature swings we experience at my house are relatively unique to where we're at in AZ.  In Phoenix, Tucson, Yuma and Pinal county they don't typically see these swings.  Hell - even my front yard doesn't see these swings!  My backyard is a consistent 6-8 degrees cooler at the lowest point than my front yard - which is about ten feet higher.  I think it has something to do with the fact that the Bradshaws - which are 8,000+ ft, are east of us (summit is ~20 miles as the crow flies).  Due north are the Weavers, which top out around 6,000ft.  To the ewest is the Harquahala plain - another 500-1000ft above us, and to the south are the Vulture Mountains.  These aren't as tall but still top out around 3500ft.  We here at my house are at 2200ft.

Here's a photo with some notation - basically, we sit in a bowl.  The terrain on all sides slopes downward from the high points I mentioned directly to downtown Wickenburg.  Even 1 minute drive time up the hill and the temps are 10+ degrees warmer than they are at my house - the star is where I am:

This could be the worst explanation of all time and totally inaccurate since you know meteorology, but it's my speculation.

Edited December 9, 2020 by ahosey01

[NickJames]

8 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

This is interesting and also helpful.

Where I'm at - the dew point and humidity are even lower.  This morning's temp was 26F in my backyard with a dew point of 9F.

Another thing that I would say is that I believe the absolutely wild daily temperature swings we experience at my house are relatively unique to where we're at in AZ.  In Phoenix, Tucson, Yuma and Pinal county they don't typically see these swings.  Hell - even my front yard doesn't see these swings!  My backyard is a consistent 6-8 degrees cooler at the lowest point than my front yard - which is about ten feet higher.  I think it has something to do with the fact that the Bradshaws - which are 8,000+ ft, are east of us (summit is ~20 miles as the crow flies).  Due north are the Weavers, which top out around 6,000ft.  To the ewest is the Harquahala plain - another 500-1000ft above us, and to the south are the Vulture Mountains.  These aren't as tall but still top out around 3500ft.  We here at my house are at 2200ft.

Here's a photo with some notation - basically, we sit in a bowl.  The terrain on all sides slopes downward from the high points I mentioned directly to downtown Wickenburg.  Even 1 minute drive time up the hill and the temps are 10+ degrees warmer than they are at my house - the star is where I am:

This could be the worst explanation of all time and totally inaccurate since you know meteorology, but it's my speculation.

Oops - forgot Arizona has severe elevation differences!!

Cold air sinks and hot air rises. 

There are less severe examples of it in Florida.

[ahosey01]

1 minute ago, NickJames said:

Oops - forgot Arizona has severe elevation differences!!

Cold air sinks and hot air rises. 

There are less severe examples of it in Florida.

Well - on that note - hope your palms are okay!

[Johnny Palmseed]

This is just the beginning of what could be a cold winter. Most palms will be ok for a cold event or two and may be damaged by frost but recovery is possible. The prolonged cold will be a real problem though. Especially if it is wetter than normal. Funny how I was complaining about how it was still pretty hot just a short while ago. It seems like we don’t get any moderate days anymore. It goes from A/C to heat and back again.

[Merlyn]

It was 37 here on Monday night, 41 on Tuesday night and 45 last night, with light frost on Tuesday morning. Oddly enough the only plants with noticeable damage are the Dwarf Cavendish, which really didn't like either frost.

[Johnny Palmseed]

11 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

It was 37 here on Monday night, 41 on Tuesday night and 45 last night, with light frost on Tuesday morning. Oddly enough the only plants with noticeable damage are the Dwarf Cavendish, which really didn't like either frost.

Bananas are great looking plants when planted in a protected location. But they sure are sensitive to wind and cold. I have had many varieties and they all tend to look terrible with either of these conditions. The palms will be fine until they cross over the point of “too much cold”. Whether it is one very cold event or a prolonged cold period, much of what we plant is not tolerant of the conditions we are likely to face. Personally, I am not really concerned (except seedlings) about a few days of cold temperatures. The problem for me is the extended period of cool or cold temps, especially if it gets wet. Often, even though the palm survives, it never really recovers and ends up on a slow decline susceptible to disease and/or pests. These temperatures for December are pretty cold and unless we get a change in that pattern, January and February could be a death sentence for a lot of palms.

[Merlyn]

Most of my bananas did okay last year, with 2 dips to 30F.  The only ones that really suffered were "Dwarf Red," "Siam Ruby," "Margarita," and Ensete Maurelli.  The Zebrina Rojo got a little bit of burn and looked a little crummy, but were generally ok.  Other stuff that did great included Super Dwarf Cavendish, Truly Tiny, Little Prince, Dwarf Namwah, Thai Black, Goldfinger, Basjoo, Bordelon, Ice Cream, Saba, Kandarian, and Mekong Giant.  Last year I didn't have any frost, so that might be the big difference with 36F + frost.

[Lou-StAugFL]

Amazing how different the temperature can be on a suburban lot.   My front which is pretty exposed is 35 degrees right now but luckily no frost.   I put the thermometer in the back at the same height 4 feet above the ground under live oak canopy and the temperature is 39 degrees.  Not even 60 feet apart.  Now I know for sure where to plant my sensitive palms and plants.  Very thankful for the live oak canopy. Looks like this is going to be a colder winter than we have had in quite a few years. 

[NickJames]

What a horrible forecast last night. It was my coldest night of the season. This was not predicted that way. Nothing was covered. 
 

Luckily I monitored in real-time and I kicked on my sprinkler with comparatively warm reclaimed water to try to stop frost. 

[Reeverse]

How cold did it get in Mosaic 

[JLM]

1 hour ago, NickJames said:

What a horrible forecast last night. It was my coldest night of the season. This was not predicted that way. Nothing was covered. 
 

Luckily I monitored in real-time and I kicked on my sprinkler with comparatively warm reclaimed water to try to stop frost. 

Same music here, bottomed out at 27 when the low was projected to be 30. I blame these less accurate forecasts on the lack of funding of the NWS. This was one of the things that was possible without the proper funding. Either way, had a decent frost, and the temps tied with lowest recorded temperature so far this winter.

[NickJames]

58 minutes ago, Reeverse said:

How cold did it get in Mosaic 

35. and, my weather station was reporting 5-10mph during the night so I imagine low spots protected from wind got very cold in my backyard. 
 

The frost could’ve been worse as we did have those wind bumps, so the elevated surfaces not as bad as last week. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Got down to 48.0F here. Predicted = 47F. Predicted overnight low tonight = 50F

But the wind is howling and the front picture window is sweating all over the sill.

[JLM]

45 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

 Predicted overnight low tonight = 50F

Predicted low here tonight is 35F. Im really hoping the models are incorrect about next week. If the models do verify, i could see temps in the 20-25 range with feels like temps in the teens. Not a fun forecast thats for sure.

[Allen]

4 hours ago, NickJames said:

What a horrible forecast last night. It was my coldest night of the season. This was not predicted that way. Nothing was covered. 
 

Luckily I monitored in real-time and I kicked on my sprinkler with comparatively warm reclaimed water to try to stop frost. 

What's your most sensitive palm?  Funny my low last night ended up being 23F according to my temp gauges.  Only 4F difference.

[NickJames]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Got down to 48.0F here. Predicted = 47F. Predicted overnight low tonight = 50F

But the wind is howling and the front picture window is sweating all over the sill.

Clouds expected to move in to Daytona at sunset. My temp supposed to remain in 50s overnight. I can see the cloud mass in the distance inching closer. This is looking east where I imagine there’s a great inversion going on due to cold/dry air and warm ocean. 

[NickJames]

21 minutes ago, Allen said:

What's your most sensitive palm?  Funny my low last night ended up being 23F according to my temp gauges.  Only 4F difference.

Golden/yellow Malayan dwarf coconut palm...LOL. 
 

Here she is soaking up the sun after being hit by 35 last night with no protection

[Bill H2DB]

  Here close to the ocean , in Holly Hill  the clouds began to show up at about 10:45 am  , and now we are 80% clouded over , so little solar 

gain happening .   A common occurrence in the Winter hereabouts .    I have seen 20 Deg difference ( rarely ) between here and DAB . That's not the 

case today .  The opposite can happen at night . 

[NickJames]

4 minutes ago, Bill H2DB said:

  Here close to the ocean , in Holly Hill  the clouds began to show up at about 10:45 am  , and now we are 80% clouded over , so little solar 

gain happening .   A common occurrence in the Winter hereabouts .    I have seen 20 Deg difference ( rarely ) between here and DAB . That's not the 

case today .  The opposite can happen at night . 

I can see it in the distance !!

[PalmatierMeg]

Nick, I know it's not much consolation but sounds like you will be warmer than here tonight. I can only dream of cloud cover. Currently 61.2F, probably won't get much warmer.

[Merlyn]

23 hours ago, NickJames said:

What a horrible forecast last night. It was my coldest night of the season. This was not predicted that way. Nothing was covered.   Luckily I monitored in real-time and I kicked on my sprinkler with comparatively warm reclaimed water to try to stop frost. 

Yeah, that was a pretty horrible forecast.  I should have become a meteorologist, I could be wrong most of the time and still keep my job!  Instead, if I'm wrong once, the company I work for loses millions of dollars...bad career choice!    I didn't get any frost here in NW Orlando area, but it did dip to 35-36F for about 3 hours.  Officially at the Sanford airport it was 40F as a low.  My two small unprotected coconuts out front still look reasonably okay, though the leaves on the yellow stem one are starting to look not quite as green as the other.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 12/18/2020 at 11:04 AM, PalmatierMeg said:

Got down to 48.0F here. Predicted = 47F. Predicted overnight low tonight = 50F

But the wind is howling and the front picture window is sweating all over the sill.

The last two nights  here in south Saint Pete on the water have been the coldest so far of the season.  44F & 46F respectively Thurs/ Friday nights (read Friday and Saturday mornings). No frost at all and no damage to anything, but that is still pretty chilly for being right on the water a mile out into southern Tampa Bay.     Its been very bouncy for a while. It warms up some (even had a day hit 80) then cools right back down pretty dramatically.    So far it feels like this cold season has been decently below average.  That looks to continue. 2 of the next 10 days look to barely reach average.    Its kind of funny that all of these long range forecasts I have seen for Dec / winter have had the SE USA above average.  Ive yet to experience that save for a few days.   I hope it changes. I dont mind the nights in the mid 50s, and days in the mid-upper 70's but Im kind of tired of when its mid 40's overmight and upper 50's low 60's days. 

 

[Kiplin]

Well, here we go. 32 low on Friday. Going to try to figure out a way to put a canopy over the buccaneer (easier said than done when it's over 15 ft tall) and will be covering the coconut & plumerias as well!