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Trying to grow dofferent palms in uptown New Orleans


furben7

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Hey yall my friend and I are trying to start a palm tree planting club at Tulane so the campus has more palm trees. I’ve been doing a ton of research into the palms that can grow and it looks like there is a very limited selection. I want different palms at Tulane, like the type that make me feel like I’m in Florida. The closest, hardiest thing I could find is the Mule palm which I admit would look really nice in various places around Tulane. I really want to steer away from fan palms and date palms and go more towards taller, droopier, longer-fronded palms like coconut palms. Obviously these don’t do well in New Orleans and it seems that even Queen palms would be taking a gamble. If anyone has suggestions for new palms that are not the pindo or phoenix palms it would be greatly appreciated.

Ideally this is what I would want from a tree:

Can grow in New Orleans and wont be wiped out after a freeze

Grows to at least 30’

Grows fast

Not a palmetto or fan palm

Thanks yall!

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Welcome to PalmTalk. You are pretty much limiting yourself to mule palms. Those and perhaps Butia spp are the only pinnate palms I can think of that might have a chance to survive there. You already rejected Phoenix spp and all fan palms, which are your best choices. Not all fan palms = Sabals. Several species of Livistona may be able to survive there. But your chances of replicating a SFL palm vibe in New Orleans is nil to none.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Queen palms are not marginal in NOLA (barring a 1989 type freeze), there are plenty of very tall queens there. Queens are one of the most common palms in the city. It's zone 9b, albeit a cooler zone 9b. 

Queens pretty much meet all of your criteria and are really not in any immediate danger of being wiped out in a freeze. Acrocomia totai is another option though it looks visually similar to a queen and has spines. There are also unprotected majesty palms (Ravenea rivularis) that have persisted in NOLA for the last 20 years. Based on how they do in Houston and NOLA, the bud seems to be hardy to ~20F though the foliage will be torched below ~25F. 

If you're willingly to accept more freeze risk, things like king palms (Archontophoenix cunninghamia) and foxtail palms (Wodyetia bifurcata) can last 10 years or more (and have in the past) and are relatively easy to remove after a freeze. Royal palms (Roystonea regia) has been able to grow for many years during warm periods in the past as well. 

 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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Was just about to mention Queen palms myself.   You'd do well giving those a go.   

 

I have to agree with @PalmatierMeg though, in that you are really limiting yourselves by ruling out so many awesome palms in the fan and date groups.   You'd have more to choose from were you willing to accept those.  Keep in mind that all kinds of fan palms and even colder tolerant Phoenix species are planted in SFL as well.   If you can get over those limitations I think you will have far more success.  Best of luck and welcome to PalmTalk! 

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If we’re going to consider royals, foxtails, and kings, we might as well mention kentiopsis oliviformis, chambeyronia macrocarpa, foxy lady, and ptychosperma elegans. And don’t forget beccariophoenix alfredii. 

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Not sure why noone has brought up Bismarkia Nobilis? Bizzies are loved by all palm enthusiasts even ones that don't like fan palms. 

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T J 

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I concur with Jeff985 for the beccariophoenix alfredii, it has done quite well here in St. Augustine Florida. I think it could take Uptown New Orleans weather for sure with protection during the coldest times.

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Lou St. Aug, FL

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Welcome furben! A beccariophoenix on Tulane campus would be a site! They are not fast palms though. I have 4 butia x parajubaea here in Houma around the pool. They are a pretty good somewhat coco look palm. They handle cold well. Google some images and see what you think. I also have 2 Beccariophoenix that may or may not make it to maturity but I’m a little colder than you here. 
consider also Jubaea x Syagrus.... massive cocosoid palm. Way more hardy than queens and pretty fast growing.

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Don’t be too quick to rule out all Phoenix species! One of my favorites is Phoenix reclinata, because to me it feels the most tropical of them. I’m not sure of it’s cold hardiness though, but I would think it’s hardier than Royals and Kings.

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19 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Welcome to PalmTalk. You are pretty much limiting yourself to mule palms. Those and perhaps Butia spp are the only pinnate palms I can think of that might have a chance to survive there. You already rejected Phoenix spp and all fan palms, which are your best choices. Not all fan palms = Sabals. Several species of Livistona may be able to survive there. But your chances of replicating a SFL palm vibe in New Orleans is nil to none.

well in addition to them not creating the vibe I’m looking for, many of the typical NOLA palms are susceptible to a specific disease thats been wiping them out in the area. 

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14 hours ago, Lou-StAugFL said:

I concur with Jeff985 for the beccariophoenix alfredii, it has done quite well here in St. Augustine Florida. I think it could take Uptown New Orleans weather for sure with protection during the coldest times.

so how would I go about protecting them if, say, a freeze were coming? would it be too difficult if they’re at full height?

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@furben7 It’ll take decades for them to reach significant height, depending on the size when planted. Based on the last 30 years, protection is something that would be rarely required, if ever. I’ve heard of some surviving 20 degrees in Houston in the January 2018 freeze. If you did need to protect it you would only have to protect the top 18-24 inches of the trunk. The fronds would burn, but the palm would survive and make new ones. 

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Dypsis decipiens is worth a shot

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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29 minutes ago, furben7 said:

well in addition to them not creating the vibe I’m looking for, many of the typical NOLA palms are susceptible to a specific disease thats been wiping them out in the area. 

Lethal Bronzing affects a wide range of palms so while you may choose certain types not currently widely planted in NOLA they may also be susceptible, perhaps even more so if you're zone pushing and the plants are already stressed. If you plant in areas with minimal lawns that are not overly irrigated & manicured you'll probably have better success with your plantings no matter what varieties you choose, as the disease carrier needs the turf for it's life cycle. 

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3 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

Too wet

isnt Madagascar a rainforest and you could try building a overhead canopy to keep the rain out

Edited by climate change virginia

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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On 11/28/2020 at 12:53 PM, furben7 said:

I’ve been doing a ton of research into the palms that can grow and it looks like there is a very limited selection. I want different palms at Tulane, like the type that make me feel like I’m in Florida.

Part of creating the visual appearance that has a more tropical vibe is the surrounding plantings. So if you pick certain places where the surrounding environment doesn't have as much of a visual impact it will be easier to create the S FL vibe. Courtyards are a good example.  Another thing you can do is to try and identify micro-climate areas on campus for your plantings that might allow you to zone push a bit with a wider variety of sub tropical complimentary plants.

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14 minutes ago, climate change virginia said:

isnt Madagascar a rainforest and you could try building a overhead canopy to keep the rain out

The problem is high humidity, roughly five feet of annual rain and heavy clay soil that never dries out. They’ve been tried in Houston with no known success. NOLA is very similar. 

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35 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

The problem is high humidity, roughly five feet of annual rain and heavy clay soil that never dries out. They’ve been tried in Houston with no known success. NOLA is very similar. 

oh thats too bad maybe try a parajubaea

Edited by climate change virginia

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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1 hour ago, NOT A TA said:

Part of creating the visual appearance that has a more tropical vibe is the surrounding plantings. So if you pick certain places where the surrounding environment doesn't have as much of a visual impact it will be easier to create the S FL vibe. Courtyards are a good example.  Another thing you can do is to try and identify micro-climate areas on campus for your plantings that might allow you to zone push a bit with a wider variety of sub tropical complimentary plants.

so like in the courtyards of some of the residence halls? this is really fantastic advice

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2 hours ago, climate change virginia said:

Dypsis decipiens is worth a shot

looked into this and it does indeed seem like it would be worth trying

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19 minutes ago, furben7 said:

so like in the courtyards of some of the residence halls? this is really fantastic advice

Yes, like the Warren Quad area where there's tall buildings limiting the view and creating small warmer micro climate areas in front of the south facing walls of the certain building facing the open space areas.

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Acrocomia totai is a top suggestion in my book. It is very cold hardy, withstanding high teens close to undamaged. In the same family as coconuts and has a rather tropical appearance. Fast growing once it’s through the seedling stage. Self cleaning. Unfortunately it has a LOT of spines on the trunk and petioles (leaf bases). Best to plant it away from where it could stab people.

Beccariphoenix alfredii and Dypsis decipiens are the next best blend of hardiness with appearance, but are slow growing. The latter is tricky to grow in wet climates as well.

Honestly your best bet with all the qualifications will probably be Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana that will last for warm periods outside of the 1980’s and 2010. They will probably be toast in another event like those which could strike any winter.

Edited by CodyORB
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2 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Yes, like the Warren Quad area where there's tall buildings limiting the view and creating small warmer micro climate areas in front of the south facing walls of the certain building facing the open space areas.

that sounds great. I assume if I wanted to line the streets/medians with tall palms like in Los Angeles and whatnot I would have to opt for more of the Washingtonia/fan-palm stye correct? @OC2Texaspalmlvr suggested Bismarkia...would those work to line streets?

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silver queen?

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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It was only a matter of time before Texas Phoenix Palm Decline (which I suspect is the culprit) arrived in NOLA. Nearly all of the old CIDP in Houston went bye bye in the last 10-15 years. 

But seriously queen palms are the #1 option imo. They are cheap, they grow fast and they are hardy. There are thousands of queens in New Orleans and most of them look great, probably the best consistently good looking queens on the entire I10 corridor; it must be the high rainfall and mucky soil. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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You should look at what they grow near McCarthy Hall at University of Florida in Gainesville as well as at Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio. The former is on here. For the latter, you will need to join the Facebook group "Tropical Gardening of South Texas" and then search for Oblate.  Take advantage of courtyards and the southern side of tall buildings and you might pull off some of the things suggested on here.

Bismarckia should work but doesn't grow super fast. You need to take a tractor trailer down to south Texas to load up on some trunking Bismarckia.

Acrocomia is for sure worth trying, but good luck finding totai. By most accounts acuelata is worth trying at Tulane.

You could also try Attalea cohune, pharaleta and butyracea, but again good luck finding a sizeable specimen.

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8 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Part of creating the visual appearance that has a more tropical vibe is the surrounding plantings. So if you pick certain places where the surrounding environment doesn't have as much of a visual impact it will be easier to create the S FL vibe. Courtyards are a good example.  Another thing you can do is to try and identify micro-climate areas on campus for your plantings that might allow you to zone push a bit with a wider variety of sub tropical complimentary plants.

Case in point. Butia x parajubaea not the most tropical looking palm but with monstera underneath and banana in the background it fits the part 

40387FDE-3D39-434D-A4E4-5905571F136B.jpeg

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3 hours ago, furben7 said:

if I wanted to line the streets/medians with tall palms

If you get involved in street plantings you may also have to follow protocol set up by the city since planting would likely be within the city owned "right of way" . If the streets your considering are public streets maintained by the city I'd suggest you begin your efforts elsewhere on the private land owned by the school.

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3 hours ago, CodyORB said:

Acrocomia totai is a top suggestion in my book. It is very cold hardy, withstanding high teens close to undamaged. In the same family as coconuts and has a rather tropical appearance. Fast growing once it’s through the seedling stage. Self cleaning. Unfortunately it has a LOT of spines on the trunk and petioles (leaf bases). Best to plant it away from where it could stab people.

Beccariphoenix alfredii and Dypsis decipiens are the next best blend of hardiness with appearance, but are slow growing. The latter is tricky to grow in wet climates as well.

Honestly your best bet with all the qualifications will probably be Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana that will last for warm periods outside of the 1980’s and 2010. They will probably be toast in another event like those which could strike any winter.

FWIW my king palms are wrapped with heat cables awaiting the early winter freeze coming tonight. Uptown New Orleans will probably be spared as usual

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3 hours ago, furben7 said:

that sounds great. I assume if I wanted to line the streets/medians with tall palms like in Los Angeles and whatnot I would have to opt for more of the Washingtonia/fan-palm stye correct? @OC2Texaspalmlvr suggested Bismarkia...would those work to line streets?

I'm not sure Bizmarkia would survive long term there.   I would bet Washingtonia Robusta would however.  If you are open to some of the more cold hardy types that opens a lot of opportunities for you.    As has been pointed out if you are going to zone push, you def need to identify warm microclimates, usually up next to the south facing walls / courtyards of bigger buildings.   Sometimes this can get you almost a whole zone warmer.  

With regards to the tropical feel with surrounding plantings there are loads of things you can try there.  Hardy bananas should be easy for you there, as they come back from the corm every year. If you need to protect them its not too hard to throw a good layer of mulch on top of the corms during winter.  Canna lilies are another good one, and they can get fairly large and offer a splash of color.  Lots of different elephant ear which also can get very large and have lush tropical foliage should do well there too.   By doing surrounding plantings like that even with some of the palms that you initially had indicated you may not like the most, you can still create a very tropical vibe / look.   

Can't wait to see what you decide to do! 

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18 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

Case in point. Butia x parajubaea not the most tropical looking palm but with monstera underneath and banana in the background it fits the part 

40387FDE-3D39-434D-A4E4-5905571F136B.jpeg

This is EXACTLY what I had in mind with my prior post just moments ago.  That looks awesome!  

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Staying with the hardiest solitary palms (many Sabal, for instance the truly spectacular S. causiarum) combined with lots of hardy clustering palms or even less hardy types that can return after freezes, will give you a durable landscape foundation. Think about clumps of the beautiful but ultra-hardy needle palm under the shade of live oaks; its less hardy but resilient Asian relative, Rhapis, which comes in many species, shapes and sizes can be used similarly to slightly more refined effect. Also you should make heavy use of the hardy Chamaedorea like C. microspadix and C. radicalis. As you note, for an exotic-looking solitary palm, and since they are hardier than queens, mule palms will probably survive for many years at a time (though queens also last a very long time and look beautiful in New Orleans' climate). Clustering species with some cold hardiness that will look good the majority of winters and return after very hard freezes include Everglades Palm (Acoellorrhaphe), the clustering Caryota monostachya, Chuniophoenix, and probably also Lanonia dasyantha. Even Licuala peltata can handle a certain amount of cold under canopy and look good for several years at a time. Don't forget to combine with bananas, gingers and hardier heliconias (e.g., Heliconia latispatha) to complete the picture. You can still experiment with a few of the more tender palms such as Dypsis lutescens or perhaps the similar but possibly hardier Dypsis baronii, hoping they will hold on for years at a time or return after bad freezes; and almost any small, tender palm that can be easily removed if it dies after a freeze. Even something like Verschaffeltia (spectacular even when small) could be easily used as an annual if replacement (or winter lifting/greenhousing) is an option, since the climate in New Orleans gives Singapore a run for its money eight months out of the year...in short, you have more options than you may think and should allow yourself to go ahead and take some moderate chances amidst the safety of the majority of the material you use for your foundation.

Good luck with the project!

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Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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6 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

I'm not sure Bizmarkia would survive long term there.   I would bet Washingtonia Robusta would however.

Hardy bananas should be easy for you there, as they come back from the corm every year. If you need to protect them its not too hard to throw a good layer of mulch on top of the corms during winter.  

Bismarckia is hardy barring an 80s style freeze. Bananas (common Orinocco type) set fruit almost every year, hardly ever freeze to the ground, and often stay green all winter in New Orleans. It is much warmer than you are describing, NOLA is zone 9b/10a the vast majority of years. Avg annual extreme minimum for the last 30 years is 29F (zone 9b), with only 3 sub-25 degree events in the low 20s. There are big queen palms on every street corner and even some large Ravenea rivularis, no need to mention the hardiness of Washingtonia. 

Edited by Xenon
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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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If we're open to fan palms, ribbon palm (Livistona decora) would thrive in the wet environment of New Orleans. Looks fairly tropical/graceful with the finely cut leaflets. There's a stretch of interstate in Houston lined with them and they look great with no care whatsoever. IIRC, there are some nice specimens at Harrah's casino. 

New Orleans probably has some of the most lush looking Chinese fan palms (Livistona chinensis). It's been a while since I've visited but I remember gushing at just how robust and deeply green they were. 

Copernicia alba would be a great choice as well. 

Edited by Xenon
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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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I understand wanting to play it safe, but I’m not sure why we’re talking about New Orleans like it’s Atlanta. 2018 was a 30 year, zone busting freeze. Look around and see what survived it, queens, majestys, bizzies, etc. Those should all be safe to plant. If you want to gamble a little, but still have the odds in your favor chose some plants that survived 2010, which I would imagine in the warmer areas (like the warmer parts of Houston) would include foxtails, kings, d. decaryi, etc. 

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6 hours ago, Xenon said:

Bismarckia is hardy barring an 80s style freeze. Bananas (common Orinocco type) set fruit almost every year, hardly ever freeze to the ground, and often stay green all winter in New Orleans. It is much warmer than you are describing, NOLA is zone 9b/10a the vast majority of years. Avg annual extreme minimum for the last 30 years is 29F (zone 9b), with only 3 sub-25 degree events in the low 20s. There are big queen palms on every street corner and even some large Ravenea rivularis, no need to mention the hardiness of Washingtonia. 

Shows you how much I know about Nola. lol.   Still have never been.  I know more tender plants can be grown there, but I have no idea of their long term viability.   I just know it freezes there and thats too cold for me. lol 

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how about chamadorea radicalis its not tall but its an idea honestly taking out phoenix palms is hard to find palms but there is still options

Edited by climate change virginia

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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On 11/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, Tropicdoc said:

Thanks! I still say jubaea x syagrus all the way 

Here's a history of one in/near Houston.

 

Andrei W. Konradi, Burlingame, California.  Vicarious appreciator of palms in other people's gardens and in habitat

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