Thoughts regarding Dypsis clumper

[quaman58 1,938]

Hey all, 

 I've had this palm planted in the ground for a number of years. It appears to be a weepy form of D. onilihensis. In a perfect palm garden, it should be a stunner; weepy leaves, stark white crownshaft.  But, even though it grows vertically reasonably well, it never holds more than two or three decent leaves on each stem, before beginning to yellow and brown tip.  In short, it always looks kind of crappy. What thinks you?  I have fertilized the heck out of it.  And there are other palms in close proximity, so root competition is a possibility.  It's possible that it's a bit on the dry side, although the other palms in the area seem pretty good. Thoughts?  Would love to have this palm reach its full potential… 

[redant 1,043]

If it was mine I'd try lots of organic material around it, horse or composted cow manure and such. I have had smaller palms nearly sucked to death by the giant royals around them and this works for me.

[Darold Petty 2,412]

HI Bret;  The older I and my garden grow, the more ruthless I have become.  When a treasured palm dies, I used to get upset, now 'whatever'. 

I have removed healthy palms that no longer please me, such as a Howea belmoreana palm that did not show the best frond form.  You have a great garden with many excellent palms, perhaps an edit would be in order.  Some individual palms will always be just 'also-rans'.   

[Tracy 4,608]

2 hours ago, quaman58 said:

I've had this palm planted in the ground for a number of years. It appears to be a weepy form of D. onilihensis. In a perfect palm garden, it should be a stunner; weepy leaves, stark white crownshaft.  But, even though it grows vertically reasonably well, it never holds more than two or three decent leaves on each stem, before beginning to yellow and brown tip.  In short, it always looks kind of crappy. What thinks you?  I have fertilized the heck out of it.  And there are other palms in close proximity, so root competition is a possibility.  It's possible that it's a bit on the dry side, although the other palms in the area seem pretty good. Thoughts?  

Bret, its funny because this is my experience with Dypsis lutescens with 2 clumps in my Leucadia and one in Carlsbad.  Funny thing is that Dypsis onilahensis actually looks great in my garden.  I've seen quite a few Dypsis baronii here in Leucadia gardens that just never seem to reach their potential as well.  I don't know if its specific plants that under-perform or if it is nutrient related (I haven't solved it with my D lutescens) or location.  Maybe try the organics recommended above and if that doesn't work its possible my thoughts are full of organics (cow manure).  At some point, Darold's advice on the editing might be something to consider as well.

[quaman58 1,938]

Doug - Thanks for the suggestion. I'm in the middle of a big mulching project, so now would be the time for it. Interestingly, there's a large Royal about 15 feet away. Funny you mentioned that!

Darold - I know what you mean. Contemplating "cutting the cord" is getting easier these days. I'm going to give it another 6 months to shape up. It was a wonderful palm in a pot, ha ha.

Tracy- My garden is pretty scatter-shot as well. Things that many gardeners find difficult grow like crazy, others that everyone is growing, I end up murdering. Like kids, gardening doesn't come with a "how to" manual!

Thanks for the replies, all.

[joe_OC 1,339]

Bret,

 

Curious what your pH is for your soil.  I had a baronii that just was not happy.  My soil pH was high, as is most SoCal soils.  I slowly lowered it, and it has made all the difference in the world.  I will show you before and after pics to compare.

 

 

[quaman58 1,938]

Good thought Joe; I'd love to see those pictures when you have some time..

[joe_OC 1,339]

On 11/20/2020 at 6:17 PM, quaman58 said:

Good thought Joe; I'd love to see those pictures when you have some time..

Here is a pic of my baronii a little over 2 years ago.  Growing, but not thriving.  Len suggested using chelated iron.  

I added chelated iron and lowered pH.  

Chelated iron helped with the deeper green, but I attribute the overall health of the palm to lowering the pH.  Nutrient absorption seemed to have increased. 

  

[Darold Petty 2,412]

Joe, can you describe the details of ph lowering, the agent and the before and after levels ??  Thanks,  (I think I may have the same problem with a potted Prtitchardia.)  

[sonoranfans 1,729]

chelation actually allows nutrient delivery in unfavorable pH conditions for the micros.  Humic acid chelates most if not all micros so delivery is improved that way in suboptimal pH conditions with regular application of humic acid.  Chelation is simoly put isolation of metal ions(Mg, Fe, K, Mn etc) by ligand formation, its a chemistry topic that is probably too technical for here.   Basicaly iron at alkaline pH turns into an oxide which is not bioavailable to the plant.  Chelating the iron prevents oxidation into the non available oxide form but you will need to apply the humic in frequent intervals in high pH soil, perhaps as frequent as monthly.  Lowering pH is best done gradually as the shock can kill some plants.  Sulfur pellets applied every 6 months leads to gradual pH drop via microbe digestion of sulfur into small amounts of sulfuric acid.   Dont be shy with the pellets they cant burn anything since release is microbe controlled.  I used a couple(2-3) handfulls per palm in my AZ garden with its alkaline clay.  I would use both humic acid addition for the short term and sulfur for the long term correction if you suspect high pH is a problem.  I also have learned to edit my garden.  Mistakes are made with limited information about cultural conditions plants need to thrive.  I dont want ANY palms in my yard that struggle to survive, I dont care how rare they are.  With that palm you might be able to make a recovery, and the upside is other plants in the area may also perk up as they might be ok but not thriving under those soil conditions.  Editing is a part of sensible palm gardening.

[Darold Petty 2,412]

Thanks Tom,   that's very helpful.  

[Butch 267]

23 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

  Editing is a part of sensible palm gardening.

Unfortunately, my editing usually isn't intentional........

Butch

[joe_OC 1,339]

8 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

chelation actually allows nutrient delivery in unfavorable pH conditions for the micros.  Humic acid chelates most if not all micros so delivery is improved that way in suboptimal pH conditions with regular application of humic acid.  Chelation is simoly put isolation of metal ions(Mg, Fe, K, Mn etc) by ligand formation, its a chemistry topic that is probably too technical for here.   Basicaly iron at alkaline pH turns into an oxide which is not bioavailable to the plant.  Chelating the iron prevents oxidation into the non available oxide form but you will need to apply the humic in frequent intervals in high pH soil, perhaps as frequent as monthly.  Lowering pH is best done gradually as the shock can kill some plants.  Sulfur pellets applied every 6 months leads to gradual pH drop via microbe digestion of sulfur into small amounts of sulfuric acid.   Dont be shy with the pellets they cant burn anything since release is microbe controlled.  I used a couple(2-3) handfulls per palm in my AZ garden with its alkaline clay.  I would use both humic acid addition for the short term and sulfur for the long term correction if you suspect high pH is a problem.  I also have learned to edit my garden.  Mistakes are made with limited information about cultural conditions plants need to thrive.  I dont want ANY palms in my yard that struggle to survive, I dont care how rare they are.  With that palm you might be able to make a recovery, and the upside is other plants in the area may also perk up as they might be ok but not thriving under those soil conditions.  Editing is a part of sensible palm gardening.

Yes, I used humic acid and seaweed to correct my soil pH.  There are a lot of products that use humic acid & seaweed.  This is the one I chose to use:  https://www.natureslawn.com/product/natures-magic/

I fill up my end of hose sprayer and set the rate to 2 TB/gal ratio.  I was doing this pretty religiously once a month until my pH was in the high 6's.  I rotate with pure humic acid from the same company.  It has worked for me.  I do have a bag of Aluminum Sulfate and just started to experiment with it this year.  

[Matt in OC 994]

Thanks @joe_OC and @sonoranfans  I imagine this is an issue in my garden and will check. What is the purpose of chelated iron vs humic acid? Does the iron just sort of help deliver the iron to green up temporarily while the humic acid lowers the ph over time so that solutions like chelated iron won’t be needed eventually?

[joe_OC 1,339]

1 hour ago, Matt in OC said:

Thanks @joe_OC and @sonoranfans  I imagine this is an issue in my garden and will check. What is the purpose of chelated iron vs humic acid? Does the iron just sort of help deliver the iron to green up temporarily while the humic acid lowers the ph over time so that solutions like chelated iron won’t be needed eventually?

Yes.  Depending on your pH, you might need EDDHA chelated iron.  EDDHA makes iron available for uptake in soils with pH higher than 7.  
 

Humic acid lowers the pH in the soil so it naturally makes all the minors minerals available for plant uptake.  The following chart shows how soil pH impacts nutrient absorption in plants:

[sonoranfans 1,729]

I never used humic acid to adjust soil pH permanently, it would take an awful lot to do it permanently.  I used sulfur to adjust soil pH, gradually.  Aluminum Sulfate can burn your plants, its not controlled release so a low acid pH can result temporarily as it diffuses through the soil diluting itself.  If your soil has lots of calcium, you have to "titrate it" to a lower pH acid salt of Ca using an acid.  Humic acid is a chelator bu its a weak acid with pH~6(it chelates iron as well as other minerals), in other words it makes sure they all are bioactive by holding micros and protecting against oxidation until they are needed.  It does rinse from the soil in time with irrigation/rain though, so chelated iron will persist better.   Fe, Mn, B, Cu, and Zn all dont deliver well in high pH, humic solves this problem by chelating with them.  Sulfuric acid(much stronger acid than humic) created from the sulfur by microbes reacts with calcuim and forms calcium sulfate(gypsum) which is a slightly acidic salt, thus neutralizing the alkalinity of the soil permanently.  I put down over 120 lbs of sulfur pellets in my AZ clay soil yard of 0.7 acres in a 3 year period for about 40 established palms.   that was what was causing of frizzletop for my queens, Mn availability due to high pH(~8.2).  My strategy with humic acid is that it is applied 2x a year aa it isnt cheap.  But humic is the ultimate degradation product of dead leaves/biomass so it packs 100x the punch of mulch in humates, fulvates etc, but it does rinse away.  Humic acid and EDTA are both chelators, but the humic acid biodegrades eventually while EDTA has accumulated residual, so I prefer humic in my soil.  Here is a basic discussion on chelators:    https://fifthseasongardening.com/chelation-crucial-for-hydroponic-gardening#:~:text=Two of the most popular,ideal for hydroponics and soil).&text=The most common synthetic chelating,EDTA%2C DPTA%2C and EDDHA.   I generally dont use EDTA as it  accumulates in the soil and I havent seen studies on breakdown products.  EDTA is a more efficient chelator than humic acids, but its so efficient it helps plants absorb heavy metals, lead cadmium arsenic (from tertilizer) more efficiently.  I dont think there is any problem using EDTA as a chelator a few times, but as a yearly treatment, I dont care for that rate of accumulation.  Humic acid does the same things but it doesnt leave a residual chemistry behind.  In our area humic acid also kills off the bad nematodes we have in our sandy soil so its a win/win.

 

[joe_OC 1,339]

pH in my soil is between 6.5 and 7.  It fluctuates depending on when I measure it. I do find it rising in between humic acid applications.  Even though the aluminum sulphate is a better to acidifying the soil, I am bit nervous using it and have been very conservative.  I am using it in areas where I am growing my tropical fruit trees that want really acidic soil (5-5.5pH).  But for my palms, I have been staying with humic acid.  

[LJG 1,166]

On 11/22/2020 at 10:43 PM, joe_OC said:

Here is a pic of my baronii a little over 2 years ago.  Growing, but not thriving.  Len suggested using chelated iron.  

I added chelated iron and lowered pH.  

Chelated iron helped with the deeper green, but I attribute the overall health of the palm to lowering the pH.  Nutrient absorption seemed to have increased. 

  

Wow, big change. Nice.

[The Gerg 930]

Well this discussion is one I think I could benefit from. To be honest, I’ve never even tested the pH level in my garden. I do have some palms that seem like they could benefit from more than just my Palmgain fertilizer though. Perhaps additional treatments are in order.

A couple questions,

1. Does anyone have a preferred pH testing device they recommend. (Perhaps some are known to be more accurate than others)?

2. With the chelated iron and humic acid do you apply any time of year or is it like fertilizer and best to use spring-fall? 

 

Thanks.

Greg