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Palmfarmer

Madrid used to be a very Palmy city in 1928

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Mangosteen

Interesting, thanks for posting.

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Palmfarmer
35 minutes ago, Mangosteen said:

Interesting, thanks for posting.

Your welcome i was a bit shocked when i found the article myself. Doing such a planting in Madrid today I believe would work because of global warming but back then it seemed crazy to me. I believe Madrid is 8B currently after visiting and seeing what grows there. (mostly Different Phoenix, Wasingtonias, Butias, Trachies etc) 

I figuere i post the rest of the photos here for people to enjoy: 

 

 

1 (1).jpg

2 (1).jpg

Edited by Palmfarmer
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DoomsDave

@Palmfarmer keep them coming 

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Palmfarmer
1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

@Palmfarmer keep them coming 

I will once i find some more 

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necturus

I didn't find many palms in Madrid or Barcelona, but the Real Jardin Botanico had some impressive stuff that made me question the 8B/9A label. I am sure there is some great stuff around Barcelona and down in southern Spain.

 

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Palmfarmer
5 minutes ago, necturus said:

I didn't find many palms in Madrid or Barcelona, but the Real Jardin Botanico had some impressive stuff that made me question the 8B/9A label. I am sure there is some great stuff around Barcelona and down in southern Spain.

 

Interesting i check that post out. Madrid does not have a huge amount of palms but it does have a moderate amount. Barcelona on the other hand is completly filled to the brim with palms everywhere. Same in the South but even more. Malaga is zone 10A, there is other great microclimates along the coast there that goes even further in higher climate zones.

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RedRabbit
48 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Interesting i check that post out. Madrid does not have a huge amount of palms but it does have a moderate amount. Barcelona on the other hand is completly filled to the brim with palms everywhere. Same in the South but even more. Malaga is zone 10A, there is other great microclimates along the coast there that goes even further in higher climate zones.

I believe Malaga is zone 11 actually.

Madrid is a cool town, but I don’t recall seeing many palms there. I think Seville may actually be 10a. They don’t have many tropical palms, but I recall seeing some huge old ficus that suggested their climate has potential. Phenomenal city to visit too. 

 

Edited by RedRabbit

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Palmfarmer
51 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I believe Malaga is zone 11 actually.

Madrid is a cool town, but I don’t recall seeing many palms there. I think Seville may actually be 10a. They don’t have many tropical palms, but I recall seeing some huge old ficus that suggested their climate has potential. Phenomenal city to visit too. 

 

Yeah Madrid does not have a ton of them, you need to look a little for them. Maybe some place along the municipal of malaga has z11. the city itself though i kind of doubt it since I remember a flight at 8:00 in the morning from Malaga airport and it was 1 celcius, this was in 2015. I do hear people say that the "Valley" that San Pedro de Alcantara is in has a very unique microclimate I can attest to that area being a lot warmer than the rest of the "Costa del Sol" I have been to. 

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RedRabbit
19 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Yeah Madrid does not have a ton of them, you need to look a little for them. Maybe some place along the municipal of malaga has z11. the city itself though i kind of doubt it since I remember a flight at 8:00 in the morning from Malaga airport and it was 1 celcius, this was in 2015. I do hear people say that the "Valley" that San Pedro de Alcantara is in has a very unique microclimate I can attest to that area being a lot warmer than the rest of the "Costa del Sol" I have been to. 

I suspect the airport gets a little colder, the climate data there isn’t especially impressive. Barcelona actually shows higher winter lows which can’t be right. :hmm:

I’m pretty confident a good portion of the Costa del Sol is zone 11, but I’ll defer to @Alicante since he probably knows the climate there better than anybody.

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Palmfarmer
24 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I suspect the airport gets a little colder, the climate data there isn’t especially impressive. Barcelona actually shows higher winter lows which can’t be right. :hmm:

I’m pretty confident a good portion of the Costa del Sol is zone 11, but I’ll defer to @Alicante since he probably knows the climate there better than anybody.

this was showed on the wall right by the airport that it was 1 celcius, but maybe the airport is in a horrible microclimate. Yes it gets warmer once you go southwest of Malaga, 

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Alicante
8 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Your welcome i was a bit shocked when i found the article myself. Doing such a planting in Madrid today I believe would work because of global warming but back then it seemed crazy to me. I believe Madrid is 8B currently after visiting and seeing what grows there. (mostly Different Phoenix, Wasingtonias, Butias, Trachies etc) 

I figuere i post the rest of the photos here for people to enjoy: 

 

Hello, the city of Madrid is actually in a 9B zone based on the official data from Madrid-Retiro (SYNOP station 08222) due to the UHI, but the nearby airports such as Barajas or Cuatro Vientos are 9A.  The city of Madrid has considerably warmer lows than the airports. I have access to official data since 1998 and Madrid's lowest temperature has been -6.1ºC.  But during this same cold day, Barajas airport had -10.1ºC, Cuatro Vientos airport had -7.2ºC and the city of Madrid had -6.1ºC as Madrid englobes a really huge area. 

From 1999 to 2018 Madrid had an average of -3.0ºC (lowest temps recorded during each year) which puts the city of Madrid inside the 9B Hardiness zone. But this goes only for the city, the main airport had -6.7ºC which is exactly borderline 8B/9A yet Cuatro Vientos airport had -4.5ºC which qualifies as a strong 9A so it depends on the area of Madrid, the city itself is 9B but surrounding areas are 9A and more exposed, outside areas are 8B/9A such as Barajas. There is another AEMET official station nearby in Getafe, a city located near Madrid, and they are as well in a 9A zone. Getafe has many palm trees in parks and avenues, and i'm not talking about Trachycarpus. I will post some photos in the next message. 

Palm trees are easily to find nowadays in Madrid, lots of private gardens have CIDP and Washingtonias to a lesser extent. There is a big public park called Madrid Rio where you can find many Washingtonias planted about a decade ago. They do get some winter damage but they recover. In public gardens Trachycarpus is the most noticeable species but it's getting replaced by CIDP, but in private gardens I'd say 80% are CIDP. Madrid's temps during March are already nice, so even if the winters are not as ideal as expected, the spring is warm.

5 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Interesting i check that post out. Madrid does not have a huge amount of palms but it does have a moderate amount. Barcelona on the other hand is completly filled to the brim with palms everywhere. Same in the South but even more. Malaga is zone 10A, there is other great microclimates along the coast there that goes even further in higher climate zones.

Malaga is solidly a 10B zone, even the airport is 10B but not by much though. Malaga is amazing for gardening, you can find there the biggest European collection of tropicals, at least when it comes to variety. I've seen there Cuban sized Roystoneas, as well I have posted lots of pics here on PalmTalk. Bottle palms, all kind of Dypsis, Carpoxylon, Ravenea, and many tropical trees, fruits and flowers. I had a full list of the palm trees planted in Malaga, I've posted it here many years ago, yet if you're interested I can try to find that list. 

4 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

this was showed on the wall right by the airport that it was 1 celcius, but maybe the airport is in a horrible microclimate. Yes it gets warmer once you go southwest of Malaga, 

Well indeed, Malaga had an unusual cold spell in February 2015 with 2 days with lows between 1-2ºC. Were you there in 6th February 2015 during the early morning? 

Barcelona just as you say yes it's filled with palm trees but that's because Barcelona plays in a much superior league when it's compared to Madrid. Their winters are much warmer.

3 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I suspect the airport gets a little colder, the climate data there isn’t especially impressive. Barcelona actually shows higher winter lows which can’t be right. :hmm:

I’m pretty confident a good portion of the Costa del Sol is zone 11, but I’ll defer to @Alicante since he probably knows the climate there better than anybody.

Thanks for the call, Malaga precisely is 10B (the coast might be borderline 11A) but yes indeed, a good chunk of the southern coastal strip of Spain is 11A and it's split up between 3 areas, the smallest being around coastal Almeria, one around the named Costa del Sol and Costa Tropical and the biggest one going from Cadiz to La Linea de la Concepcion. 

7 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I believe Malaga is zone 11 actually.

Madrid is a cool town, but I don’t recall seeing many palms there. I think Seville may actually be 10a. They don’t have many tropical palms, but I recall seeing some huge old ficus that suggested their climate has potential. Phenomenal city to visit too. 

 

Hmm that's a good one! Sevilla is 10A/10B, depending on the zone. The big Guadalquivir river that passes through the city acts as a good heat trap, the airport is undoubtely a 10A zone yet it's in a more exposed area, far from the river and far from any UHI unlike Sevilla, the city of Sevilla I'd say is probably more on the 10B side and the outskirts of the city are 10A just as the airport. I have pics of Bismarckias, Archontophoenixes and Howeas from Sevilla. But their most beautiful palms are the giant CIDP and Washingtonias you can find all across the city. And yes indeed they have some big ass Ficus out there, the biggest I have seen in my life. Sevilla has quite a nice winter actually, and it fastly heats up in February-March. 

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Alicante

Oh and these early XX century Madrid palms pictures are amazing, thanks for sharing them with us! :shaka-2:

Nowadays the temperatures have increased and the UHI is stronger, I would really like to see such an experiment nowadays. Well in fact nowadays there is something similar in Boadilla which is cooler than Madrid, the next pictures i'll post are from Boadilla, Getafe and Madrid itself, photos from public parks located inside the city of Madrid. 

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Palmfarmer

@AlicanteGreat to have an expert clearing all up a bit more detailed, thanks. So this mean you could grow Bismarck in Madrid and certainly Barcelona then? Great pictures by the way

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Alicante
16 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

@AlicanteGreat to have an expert clearing all up a bit more detailed, thanks. So this mean you could grow Bismarck in Madrid and certainly Barcelona then? 

Not even a single chance for Bismarckias in Madrid, in Barcelona there are actually Bismarckias growing and I have posted a couple of pics here on PalmTalk in the past!

The 9B Hardiness area inside the city of Madrid is deceiving since they don't have such extreme lows but the winter warmth is still not enough, in fact, the outskirts of Madrid have warmer winter highs (yet quite cooler lows) I think the limit can be put on a Syagrus yet they would receive winter damage, Madrid's winter highs are not warm enough. 

This is the most "subtropical" photo I have regarding Madrid. It's from a private garden in the outskirts of Madrid, I don't know how they look nowadays.

viu1349882332c.JPG

But they should thrive there, at least judging by the following pictures from Ciudad Real, which has colder winters than Madrid. They grew quite a bit from 2011 to 2018!

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Edited by Alicante
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Palmfarmer

ok thanks for clearing that up. A Brahea Armata would be a nice substitute in Madrid then ;) Are the winters really dry in Madrid? I remember seeing a bunch of Butia x Jubeas I Believe outside a museum or something in Madrid do you happen to know where that is? I will definitly look for those Bismarcks you posted. 

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Palmfarmer

Wow nice queens and Butia, They seem to be in a great spot sheltered by wind, but nevertheless that is impressive. exactly where is that location?

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Alicante
3 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

ok thanks for clearing that up. A Brahea Armata would be a nice substitute in Madrid then ;) Are the winters really dry in Madrid? I remember seeing a bunch of Butia x Jubeas I Believe outside a museum or something in Madrid do you happen to know where that is? I will definitly look for those Bismarcks you posted. 

You're most likely talking about the Buen Retiro Park palm trees and butias/jubaeas they have there or nearby! ;-) 

butia-del-paseo-de-recoletos-i-madrid.jp

 

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Retiro Park - That's in fact where the official AEMET station is located. That's the green lung of Madrid, the UHI is actually slightly lower there as expected. The Bismarckia pictures of Barcelona should've been in one of the threads I made 5 years ago, but they're not there anymore because they were hosted on TinyPic and that website went down a couple of years ago.  :crying:

This is the only related thing I have found, Bismarckias being sold on a nursery on Tarragona and they have one picture of one of the Bismarckias they've planted outdoors.

But Tarragona is located further south of Barcelona. Can't do anything about that, I barely found that syagrus/musa picture from Madrid. https://plantas.net/es/plantas/bismarckia-nobilis

BISMARCKIA__5315dc7debb80.jpg

 

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Palmfarmer

Thanks for the photo anyways. How about the Atlantic Coast of Spain, what zones exist there and what can grow there, its pretty moist right?

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Alicante
12 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Wow nice queens and Butia, They seem to be in a great spot sheltered by wind, but nevertheless that is impressive. exactly where is that location?

Sure you can! Here you go: https://goo.gl/maps/RTxbaDtTV2ysLrHm9 

BTW if you want to know the full list that grows in Madrid, check for example in this local gardening: https://www.viverosrucat.es/venta-de-palmeras/

They only sell plants that are able to grow outdoors there, eitherwise it's a waste of time. In fact, they store them outdoors in giant pots. 

The full list of species is: Brahea Armata, Butia Capitata, Butia Yatay, Chamaerops Volcano, Chamaerops Ceracifera, Chamaerops Humilis, Chamaerops Excelsa, Jubaea Chilensis, Phoenix Canariensis, Phoenix Dactylfera, Phoenix Roebelenii, Sabal Palmetto, Trithrinax Campestris, Washingtonia Filifera, Washingtonia Robusta and Yuccas that aren't palm trees. 

 

2 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Thanks for the photo anyways. How about the Atlantic Coast of Spain, what zones exist there and what can grow there, its pretty moist right?

It depends, Bilbao hasn't got the same growing capabilities as La Coruña. Coruña for example has giant Howeas, while in Bilbao I have never heard about any Howea. 

But what I can clearly say is that all the Atlantic Coast of Spain has lots of amazing looking CIDP and unlike in southern/eastern Spain, they haven't been affected by the Red Weevil. 

bwy1209840344p.jpg

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RedRabbit
8 hours ago, Alicante said:

Hello, the city of Madrid is actually in a 9B zone based on the official data from Madrid-Retiro (SYNOP station 08222) due to the UHI, but the nearby airports such as Barajas or Cuatro Vientos are 9A.  The city of Madrid has considerably warmer lows than the airports. I have access to official data since 1998 and Madrid's lowest temperature has been -6.1ºC.  But during this same cold day, Barajas airport had -10.1ºC, Cuatro Vientos airport had -7.2ºC and the city of Madrid had -6.1ºC as Madrid englobes a really huge area. 

From 1999 to 2018 Madrid had an average of -3.0ºC (lowest temps recorded during each year) which puts the city of Madrid inside the 9B Hardiness zone. But this goes only for the city, the main airport had -6.7ºC which is exactly borderline 8B/9A yet Cuatro Vientos airport had -4.5ºC which qualifies as a strong 9A so it depends on the area of Madrid, the city itself is 9B but surrounding areas are 9A and more exposed, outside areas are 8B/9A such as Barajas. There is another AEMET official station nearby in Getafe, a city located near Madrid, and they are as well in a 9A zone. Getafe has many palm trees in parks and avenues, and i'm not talking about Trachycarpus. I will post some photos in the next message. 

Palm trees are easily to find nowadays in Madrid, lots of private gardens have CIDP and Washingtonias to a lesser extent. There is a big public park called Madrid Rio where you can find many Washingtonias planted about a decade ago. They do get some winter damage but they recover. In public gardens Trachycarpus is the most noticeable species but it's getting replaced by CIDP, but in private gardens I'd say 80% are CIDP. Madrid's temps during March are already nice, so even if the winters are not as ideal as expected, the spring is warm.

Malaga is solidly a 10B zone, even the airport is 10B but not by much though. Malaga is amazing for gardening, you can find there the biggest European collection of tropicals, at least when it comes to variety. I've seen there Cuban sized Roystoneas, as well I have posted lots of pics here on PalmTalk. Bottle palms, all kind of Dypsis, Carpoxylon, Ravenea, and many tropical trees, fruits and flowers. I had a full list of the palm trees planted in Malaga, I've posted it here many years ago, yet if you're interested I can try to find that list. 

Well indeed, Malaga had an unusual cold spell in February 2015 with 2 days with lows between 1-2ºC. Were you there in 6th February 2015 during the early morning? 

Barcelona just as you say yes it's filled with palm trees but that's because Barcelona plays in a much superior league when it's compared to Madrid. Their winters are much warmer.

Thanks for the call, Malaga precisely is 10B (the coast might be borderline 11A) but yes indeed, a good chunk of the southern coastal strip of Spain is 11A and it's split up between 3 areas, the smallest being around coastal Almeria, one around the named Costa del Sol and Costa Tropical and the biggest one going from Cadiz to La Linea de la Concepcion. 

Hmm that's a good one! Sevilla is 10A/10B, depending on the zone. The big Guadalquivir river that passes through the city acts as a good heat trap, the airport is undoubtely a 10A zone yet it's in a more exposed area, far from the river and far from any UHI unlike Sevilla, the city of Sevilla I'd say is probably more on the 10B side and the outskirts of the city are 10A just as the airport. I have pics of Bismarckias, Archontophoenixes and Howeas from Sevilla. But their most beautiful palms are the giant CIDP and Washingtonias you can find all across the city. And yes indeed they have some big ass Ficus out there, the biggest I have seen in my life. Sevilla has quite a nice winter actually, and it fastly heats up in February-March. 

Thanks for all the pictures and sharing your exceptional climatological knowledge of Spain! :greenthumb::D

53 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I noticed an archontophoenix in Bilbao in 2018. According to streetview it has been growing there since 2014.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/seKBFebpwii91CaF7

That archontophoenix is growing at roughly the same latitude as Kennebunkport, Maine. :blink:

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gurugu

The archontophoenix Axel mentions is an Alexandrae.

I first spotted it in 2009 and it wasa medium sized seedling. It covered by two large phoenix canariensis and it is onle 20 metres away from a stuary river. I think the place it is in, is 9b/10a zone

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sipalms
6 minutes ago, gurugu said:

archo bi leaves.jpg

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Can someone describe the climate and extremes of Bilbao and the area?

Exact same latitude as here! And the climate would be similar. I'm keen on planting an Archontophoenix. 

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gurugu

Hi, Sipalms:

Bilbao is at 43º N. Temperatures for the hottest month are: 25ºC/ 26ºC Max // 15ºC /16ºC min. and : 13ºC Max/ 5ºC min. for the coldest.  With a year average of 14,6ºC

It usually freezes 2,3 nights a year but not too hard. What makes it a 9b usda zone. Maybe 10a downtown and borroughs on the south facing slopes of the mountains

1.300 litres of rain yearly. 160 for the rainiest, and 60 for the driest. With a yearly sunshine average of 1.700 hours. Which is very little.

I would say it can be considered as an Atlantic temperate climate for the maximums and rainy subtropical for the minimums.

I think the coldest temperature ever was -6,8ºC. It is situated 12 km. away from the sea and surrounded by mountains. This makes it colder in winter and hotter in summer than coastal cities such as San Sebastian, Santander or Gijón.

I hope it is of interest for you.

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sipalms
41 minutes ago, gurugu said:

hope it is of interest for you.

Thanks, it sure is. Much appreciated

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gurugu

Sipalms. If you live near Auckland, you shouldn´t have any trouble in growing Archontophoenix cunninghamiana and all the other species of Archontophoenix .

This one is cunninghamiana and it has been growing in Cantabria for the last 60 years. It is filled with seeds almost all year round.

And these are mine: Cunninghamiana (actually, children from the previous one) 15 years in the ground plus 5 in a pot. They have 2 metres of clear trunk, the tallest. There are 6 of them in a group.

And from these two, the one on the left, I think it is a hybrid of cunninghamiana with alexandrae. Almost no ramenta, paler greyish colour underside the blades, and when young, new leaves came out in red colour. Over 2 metres of clear trunk. I hope it will start to set seeds soon.

I also have Maxima, Tuckeri, Alexandrae, Myolensis, Cunninghamiana var. Illawarra and Purpurea. The only one I´ve had trouble with, has been Alexandrae var. Beatrice. I´ve tried it twice but with no luck

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gurugu

Alicante. Muy buena información climatológica y las fotos de Madrid. Hi Alicante. Very good info on climate and pics about palms in Madrid.

Yes you can see kentias in Bilbao. There are some downtown, still small ones, and tall ones close to the sea. These ones are in Las Arenas. The two in the first picture were 6/8 metres tall, and they had even sprouted volunteers. Unluckily they were chopped down last year.

 

 

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The one in the third pic is, luckily, still alive. It is 8 mts tall and also sets seeds.

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The ones in the fourth pic were in Santander. They were even taller and were also chopped down in 2008.

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Rhynchophorus does have arrived in Galicia. It did a few years ago . It has caused havoc. Look at that canariensis in downtown Vigo. The sixth pic is of 2016. It is said to have also arrived in Oviedo, Asturias. I read it in some forum.

Pictures fourth and fifth are the kentias howeas you mention in La Coruña. They are very old and tall, about 12 mts.

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By the way. I am not so sure downtown Sevilla is a 10b zone. I would say it is more on the 10a zone. It is over 100 km away from the sea. Tablada, Sevilla´s airport (6 km away) suffers freezes almost every winter. I´ve seen -7ºC at Córdoba, which is a bit higher in altitude and farther from the sea but not far from Sevilla. Downtown Málaga IS a 10b zone, maybe even 11a.

 

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Axel Amsterdam

Hi Gurugu, thanks for the pics of the archontophoenix A. 

Did you know of any queens around Bilbao? I haven't seen any but I noticed a large one in Biarritz though. 

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gurugu

Hi, Axel: Yes, you can see Syagrus Romanzoffiana in Bilbao and some other places.

This monster was planted pretty tall in 2000.

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Have a look around and you will also see butias, brahea armata, sabals, phoenix reclinatas, washingtonia filiferas.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.274888,-2.9616389,3a,60y,135.57h,96.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq3Lpk8RZIjUEkmP8Vf-MrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

They even planted a Copernicia alba and an Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. Both died, but I think it was because they planted them the wrong way

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This is the other syagrus, a smaller one

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All these pics are from 2006

These romanzoffianums are in Gijón, Asturias. There are about 20 in a row. They  were also planted very tall and in the early 2000´s

IMG_20180421_123725.thumb.jpg.b384336aa53c3c9578f96dc6deb6d9ec.jpg

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5421999,-5.6943446,3a,75y,86.39h,92.94t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipOz-0hzeC4FheENv62M7aAjXDJ_SUSerCOn0HwE!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOz-0hzeC4FheENv62M7aAjXDJ_SUSerCOn0HwE%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya319.24402-ro-0-fo100!7i8704!8i4352

Mines have been in the ground for 24 years now. I´ll post a pic.

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Axel Amsterdam

Fantastic, thanks.

Another tree that surprised me is the tall dactylifera in San Sebastian port. I have never seen any other dacty in the wider area, perhaps because there is not enough heat in summer to keep them happy. This one does alright though. 

Edited by Axel Amsterdam

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gurugu

Have you got any picture of that dactylifera? I don´t remember seing any in that area, though I haven´t been toSan Sebastián for ages.

I do recall washingtonia filifera and some trithrinax in Plaza de Guipúzcoa. Now I see jubaea being planted and washingtonia robusta too, on internet.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3215792,-1.9824268,3a,19.7y,149.5h,90.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA06NaHtIjjHzhXMfk6dZ7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Most sure you´ve seen these ones near Guggenheim museum. They set seeds because they are in the hottest place of the city.

gugenheim.jpg.200900bda116fc1fc854d6ad4ce95403.jpg

These dactyliferas were planted at the same time. All of them brought very tall from Elche or from northern Africa.

461524005_sanignacio.thumb.jpg.23376b0ab721c60ce79dbf83d4751cc3.jpg

And these  ones are in Castro Urdiales, Cantabria and are growing in a wharf, so very little heat in summer.

castro.jpg.af37cd79b3769d392ad787fa8b0c383a.jpg

 

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