PHOENIX THEOPHRASTII

[Kris]

Dear Colin

Thanks for such fentastic stills of P.Theo in their natural habitate...

Lots of love,

Kris

[palmtreesforpleasure]

your welcome Kris, a couple more pictures including a picture with the dingy i rowed ashore to get the pictures

regards

colin

[John in Andalucia]

Looks like a real adventure, Colin. Was it a solo mission?

[iamjv]

Hey Colin, thanks for the info. I didn't realize that was part of the Med... interesting history as well. Jv

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi John

Was living aboard for a few months in 2006 on my friends boat, we have sailed together for years on various boats

It was a surprise to sail along the coast and suddenly see palm trees in Turkey klms for anywhere. After finding information about them, took another friends boat to Grand Canarie and found more information at the Las Palmas Botanical Gardens.

The Phoenix theophrasti growing there is part of the conservation efforts along with a few botanical gardens around the world to prevent its extinction. It is working as there are more slowly becoming available over the last few years.

I have been informed the population in Turkey is the biggest in the world. There is not that many there. Collections have been taken from there in the past. There needs to be more in botanical gardens to ensure its survival. As we know if they are in our gardens the next owner of the property will cut them down and plant what they want. Botanical arks are important

regards

Colin

[Kris]

Dear Colin

Well said ! i agree that botanical instutations and local adminastrations should take inisiative in creating reserves to grow nearly extinct palm species in their natural habitates..

And here in south india where talipots & C.Macropodas happen to been their home,i hardly see any grown both in public or priviate properties,parks & gardens ! its virtually becoming extint.

And i had to import seeds into india from RPS to grow few talipots,since here noboday knows or stocks seeds of such exotic palms...

Love,

Kris

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Thank you Kris

Currently working on a project at the Royal Sydney botanical gardens for the replanting and updating of the palm section. Soon will be doing a stock take of what is there compared to there official list, some have died other records of some species appear incorrect, This weekend upgrading the names on the the list to current genus and species, rare palms are being donated by myself and other palm enthusiasts. Will be going to Queensland next week to persuade others to donate rare species. Organising volunteers to help, Ian Edwards (palmtalk member), is rechecking the names and is going to assist with the stocktak, hopefully Mike (Newcal) and Daryl may fly down to help with that task, Clayton is donating some palms as well. My task is to organise the team and organise the new palms for the collection, very exciting, so if you do find some rare seed in India please send some to me ,you would be listed as the donor or if any one else wishes to help pm me please

regards

Colin

[iamjv]

Colin, great info on those Theo's you came across on your journies in the Med. That experience of sailing around for months must have been outstanding....

It is great that you (& other plam lovers) are getting involved with the local botanical-palm garden. It's important to not only keep records and labels straight but also impart palm knowledge to help develop a better palm garden and subsequently, a better botanical garden. Keep up the good work.

Jv

[Tampa Scott]

Here is a shot of my P. theophrastii girl.

[Kris]

Stills gallery

http://www.arkive.org/cretan-date-palm/pho...sti/images.html

Love,

kris

[Michel64]

For Kris, and the others too.

Yes I think it is the most hardy Phoenix. It can take 15/16°F in a wet oceanic climate, with high soil and atmosphere humidity, whithout any damage to the palms, so in good conditions the extreme limit could probably be much lower.

This is mine, in 2008 and now. It is not evident to see it on my pictures but a few suckers appeared very early.

The palms are very stiff and the leaflets are pricky. The bases of the leaflets on the rachis are yellow. It is pretty easy to identify this palm according to those criteria.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Michel64

[8er-moni]

:drool: Oh - Oh - great pics :blink:

This is mine:

February 08:

March 09

[Kris]

Dear Michel & Dear Monica

thanks for the visuals...

love,

kris

[Kris]

Bump !

For the benifit of new members...

http://www.trebrown....nix+theophrasti

http://www.eol.org/pages/1135079

http://www.fotopedia...retan_Date_Palm

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/palms/msg1213365418951.html

[Fallacia]

Hello everybody from Greece!!! I have started growing fully p. theophrastii since October 2011. Especially in October 2011 i started from 20 seeds i selected from the Preveli gorge that September but at least i had only 8-9 seedlings of the prevelian var. I can tell you that p. theophrastii has about 3-4 var. in Greece and the one well known s.sp. Golkoy in one only place of Turkey and maybe in Amorgos, Nisiros (one natural grown palm) and Karpathos greek islands. A very significant var. of p. theophrastii which i think very few knowing about that, is the Ancient Epidaurus var. in N.E. Peloponnese which are remains of an ancient palm forest that is told is the hardiest greek var. of all because the climate of N.E. Peloponnese belongs to the 9b zone so maybe it's palms could have made since many centuries their natural antibodies, making them maybe be resistant till the -12 C or -14 C (maybe like the turkish p. theophrastii teams in post 38) inspite the cretan 10 zone 2-3 var. can be resistant till the -9 C or -10 C. If i am wrong correct me. So since December 2011 with the seed "gift" of a peloponnesian friend i am growing the epidaurus var. and i think they must be more salt tollerant because the ground they are growing their roots it is only 20-30 cm above the sea level and near the sea salty winds but i think not these are so hardy salty winds because Vayonia beach (the name of that beach) it is a bay in which the left and right hills protecting a lot the bay from both the north and south winds during the winter time. Now i'm growing few seedlings since the start of 2013 from the Vai var. with collecting so many seeds from Sitia town and Vai palmforest in November 2012. I did 2 travels to Crete into 2 years but the 2nd one was really the best seed collection. I have too many Vai seeds so if everyone wants to purchase, i am here.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Fallacia

[greekpalm]

The myth goes that the mycenaeans used them in construction. They were found till thebes and euboia around 1200BC. Noone really knows why they dissapeared... some say they were all cut down, some others say that the climatic change that caused the end of the mycenaean civilization, the rise of the sea people and other disruption in organised social life in the eastern mediteranean and middle east may also be the reason they almost totally disapeared from mainland greece.

I've been searching for the epidaurus ones, but i've never been able to locate them... is vayonia not in poros?

do you know the orriginal location of the epidaurus population ?

[Phoenikakias]

Trunks have been used as pilars during the minoan and mycenaean era (check the minoan-mycenaean pillar style with the swollen upper part against all static rules, does not that remind a reversed Phoenix trunk probably to avoid the production and rooting of new suckers?) or for rolling ships upon trunks ashore and in to the sea. Besides there was a part of the total war mode between greek states, that an army deforests all the enemy territory.

[greekpalm]

nice to hear that someone knows "his history"

[Fallacia]

I have some elements of the Epidaurian p. theophrastii here starting from the 7th post of the page:

http://natura2009.atfreeforum.com/forum-f32/topic-t513-20.html

a pic that is not at a good view in that forum

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1415/img5426c.jpg

Vayionia area is just at the northern outskirts of Ancient Epidaurus modern settlement in a bay of the Saronic Gulf opposite-west of the northern tip of Methana peninsula.

* the last two photos are a p. dactylifera of the area for a comparison with those p. theophrastii.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Fallacia

[greekpalm]

i've been searching on google maps, but i cant find it. Is it possible to give me the coordinates ?

[_Keith]

I have 2 little seedlings of this in my garden this year, courtesy of Kathryn. They mostly put down roots this wet cloudy summer with little growth. They'll be on their own this winter in Zone 9a, so we will see just how tough they are. I suspect they will do fine.

[greekpalm]

temperature wise should be fine i guess. its the humidity/rain that might be a problem.
high humidity and frost can be a problem, and rainy, humid summers aswell. (you say that you have 61" of rain, in their habitat they receive around 14")

so i would say give it a very well drained soil.

But overall i can say that they are very tough !

[greekpalm]

http://img221.images...15/img5426c.jpg

they look more to the preveli ones than the vai ones.

[Phoenikakias]

Fallacia in first line welcome to the forum! Then could you please describe one by one the four varieties that presumably exist?

[greekpalm]

from what i saw is that the vai ones look more dactylifera alike, shorter, grayer compared to the Preveli ones...

[Fallacia]

If i am true there is the Prevelis var., the Vai var. in Crete and maybe there is a third one on the island (maybe the Chania var. in White Lake area) or the var. of Heraklion prefecture which i think is similar or the same to the Prevelis var. The other variety is the peloponnesian (Ancient Epidaurus) in which has detected that the fruits are longer and are maturing looking like the dactylifera's fruits period and i mean that the first which is maturing is the "flesh" of the fruit and then the seed inside, inspite in a normal p. theophrastii the seed and the flesh of the fruit are both maturing the same period. Ancient Epidaurus is at latitude N37*38'16.8" & E23*09'18" in Google Earth.

The other var. may be at the southeast aegean were you can find maybe a local variety both the Golkoy s.sp.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Fallacia

[Fallacia]

http://img221.images...15/img5426c.jpg

they look more to the preveli ones than the vai ones.

No the Epidaurus looks like more the Vai var. but has different fruits, longer or both long and rounder from tree to tree. If you looked at the pictures you can understand what i mean (the fruits of a small one theophrastii look like more round). I will post onother time the longer.

[greekpalm]

By The Way the cordinates are for palaia epidauros, I was searching for vagonia beach :-)

[Grasswing]

Hello everybody,

nice to read this topic about history of P. theophrastii. Do you think that I can find this palm on the Rhodos island too?

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

[Fallacia]

By The Way the cordinates are for palaia epidauros, I was searching for vagonia beach :-)

I gave you those cordinates to understand that the Vayionia beach is just at the north outskirts of the Palaia Epidauros, the only one beach at this point. Just too easy. I have said for the point of the area Vayionia near the settlement on a post above. You can't see any photo of all the theophrastii of the area unless you click on one of the photos there have taken and putted over the sea near the beach.

[Fallacia]

Hello everybody,

nice to read this topic about history of P. theophrastii. Do you think that I can find this palm on the Rhodos island too?

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

Hello Andrew. No if you want to find palm trees of p. theophrastii, you can visit only Crete, Amorgos island, one beach in Anafi island but i think that palm is a male one, so you can't collect any seeds and at the end Vayionia beach just north of Palaia Epidavros (Ancient Epidaurus) at the N.E. Peloponnese. I think the nearest point of Rhodes you can find p. theophrastii is one point that i cant find in Karpathos island but i think it must be the Golkoy s.sp. I have just find some photos in a photo site from Karpathos but there wasn't be written where excactly these palms were.

[Fallacia]

Here is the palm and it's longer fruits of the epidaurus var.

These fruits as i said at a last post are being matured like the "method" one p. dactylifera follows.

The photos have been taken from a friend, Vasilis who is from Ligourio village near Palaia Epidavros.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Fallacia

[greekpalm]

ok Thanks, ive found it :-)

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/48226266

[Grasswing]

Thank you,

maybe I will find some palm in culture there.

Regards

Andrew

[Phoenikakias]

Fallacia, have you ever tried to cross theo with another Phoenix sp? http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/37320-what-am-i-doing/ Though I had plenty of pollen available fruit building has been poor, so maybe there is a compatibility issue?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[mlovecan]

Thank you,

maybe I will find some palm in culture there.

Regards

Andrew

Andrew,

There are quite a few in culture here on Rhodes - if you are on the island and can't find some, let me know as I am aware of quite a few, including in my village of Lardos - there is one at the petrol station on the National Road near the second entrance to my village.

Regarding native populations in Crete, I was recently informed by a local friend in the tourist police ( Crete native ) there is one more sight on Crete I have never seen documented before. It is a mountainous area in the southwest of the island. He showed me the sight on google maps - the entire forested area was burned out ( about 15 years ago ) and never grown back. However the Cretan Dates are thriving and quite a large area clearly visible on google maps as the only vegetation for many, many miles.

Cheers

Maurice

[Fallacia]

Fallacia, have you ever tried to cross theo with another Phoenix sp? http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/37320-what-am-i-doing/ Though I had plenty of pollen available fruit building has been poor, so maybe there is a compatibility issue?

Whell, shall i saw you a maybe hybrid?

Here it is:

I think it's a p. theophrastii x p. canariensis i met in Sitia town, Crete and i phographized that. Am i true? Just look at the fruit bigger bunches and on the density of the leaflets.

I

Edited August 19, 2013 by Fallacia

[greekpalm]

this is indeed a hybrid, im sure about the CIDP part, but not so sure about the other can be a dactylifera or a theophrastii

[Phoenikakias]

Thank you,

maybe I will find some palm in culture there.

Regards

Andrew

Andrew,

There are quite a few in culture here on Rhodes - if you are on the island and can't find some, let me know as I am aware of quite a few, including in my village of Lardos - there is one at the petrol station on the National Road near the second entrance to my village.

Regarding native populations in Crete, I was recently informed by a local friend in the tourist police ( Crete native ) there is one more sight on Crete I have never seen documented before. It is a mountainous area in the southwest of the island. He showed me the sight on google maps - the entire forested area was burned out ( about 15 years ago ) and never grown back. However the Cretan Dates are thriving and quite a large area clearly visible on google maps as the only vegetation for many, many miles.

Cheers

Maurice

It's Agios Nikitas, thoroughly discussed about in EPS this spring.

[greekpalm]

agios nikitas is towards the east of the island, heraclion prefecture bordering with lasithi.

He said southWest

coordinates for the palms in agios nikitas: 34.966085,25.248553 (just copy paste in google maps)