My Sabal causiarum is setting seed!

[CodyORB]

It’s a double planting. The house was built in the 90’s so that’s the only guess I have about age, although I’ve seen similar size ones around 10 years old. There must be thousands of ‘em seeds! These things are monsters, to the bottom right is my Coconut seedling for scale. There is also a huge Chamaerops also hiding underneath them. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by CodyORB

[sonoranfans]

Cody yours looks different than mine.  Inthe palmpedia they quote "inflorescence extend exceeding the length of the leaf".  Not sure what I see in that pic, but it seems not to be the case.  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Sabal_causiarum

My causiarum agrees with palmpedia, but in year one of flowering they didnt come out pst the leaves.  The last two years there is no mistaking they are longer than the leaves.   Once they get heavy with fruit it seems like they might be the same length as the leaves.  Here is my causiarum about 4 months ago when it flowered. 

[CodyORB]

49 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Cody yours looks different than mine.  Inthe palmpedia they quote "inflorescence extend exceeding the length of the leaf".  Not sure what I see in that pic, but it seems not to be the case.  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Sabal_causiarum

My causiarum agrees with palmpedia, but in year one of flowering they didnt come out pst the leaves.  The last two years there is no mistaking they are longer than the leaves.   Once they get heavy with fruit it seems like they might be the same length as the leaves.  Here is my causiarum about 4 months ago when it flowered. 

I must have mid-ID'd, then. My next best guess is Mexicana, the only other "large" Sabal that doesn't appear to have flowers extending past the fronds.

[Fusca]

7 hours ago, CodyORB said:

I must have mid-ID'd, then. My next best guess is Mexicana, the only other "large" Sabal that doesn't appear to have flowers extending past the fronds.

I couldn't help much with ID on Sabals but the fruit looks too small to be mexicana.  Compare what fruit you have with what we see with mexicana here in Texas.  The photo below (sorry for the poor quality) was taken in mid-September when the local mexicanas' fruit were beginning to ripen and had already set fruit during June/July timeframe.  Fruit is typically close to 0.75" (19 mm) while the cleaned seed is ½" (13 mm) in diameter which is twice the size of palmetto seeds/fruits.  Second photo shows seed comparison of mexicana (top) vs palmetto (bottom).  Whatever Sabal you have is a nice one!

Edited November 11, 2020 by Fusca

[CodyORB]

10 hours ago, Fusca said:

I couldn't help much with ID on Sabals but the fruit looks too small to be mexicana.  Compare what fruit you have with what we see with mexicana here in Texas.  The photo below (sorry for the poor quality) was taken in mid-September when the local mexicanas' fruit were beginning to ripen and had already set fruit during June/July timeframe.  Fruit is typically close to 0.75" (19 mm) while the cleaned seed is ½" (13 mm) in diameter which is twice the size of palmetto seeds/fruits.  Second photo shows seed comparison of mexicana (top) vs palmetto (bottom).  Whatever Sabal you have is a nice one!

Here we go! They aren’t 100% ripe yet but compare more in size to Palmetto than Mexicana. Mexicana was the only “Giant” species I can find with inflorescences shorter than leaves. Either the seeds expand as they ripen or maybe I have a hybrid/mutant on my hands. Sort of like@PalmatierMeg’s “Leu Gardens” Sabal miamiensis with larger than usual seeds.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by CodyORB
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[CodyORB]

Something else I realized: this planting of probable Mexicana at a lake near me has leaves that fold and are rather “droopy” at the ends, sort of like a Livistona. They are also a glossier deeper green. Compare that to mine, whose newer leaf ends stand firm and older ones only “mildly” bend down. Also very deeply curved/arched. Color difference could just be a manganese/potassium issue:

Edited November 11, 2020 by CodyORB
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[sonoranfans]

Cody, I suggest you read read Scott Zonas 1990 monograph on carribean sabals.  Its extensive and perhaps the best read for carribean sabal ID.  Mexicana has large fruits, so that excluudes your palms.  You palms have so many leaves, magnificent!

[CodyORB]

21 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I suggest you read read scott Zonas 1990 monograph on sabals.  Its extensive and perhaps the best read for carribean sabal ID.  Mexicana has large fruits, so that excluudes your palms.  You palms have so many leaves, magnificent!

Found it! I looked through leaf form, inflorescence shape (no word on length compared to leaves though), and found this snippet about seed size compared to S. guatemalensis: 

No word on flowers, though my seeds are roughly 10mm wide and 9mm tall, closer to Guatemalensis but still on the low end. They also have the more “pyriform” than spherical. 
 

Then again, they aren’t ripe yet and could still grow/expand a bit larger.

[sonoranfans]

54 minutes ago, CodyORB said:

Found it! I looked through leaf form, inflorescence shape (no word on length compared to leaves though), and found this snippet about seed size compared to S. guatemalensis: 

No word on flowers, though my seeds are roughly 10mm wide and 9mm tall, closer to Guatemalensis but still on the low end. They also have the more “pyriform” than spherical. 
 

Then again, they aren’t ripe yet and could still grow/expand a bit larger.

I think when your fruits are ripe they may be 11-12mm.  You may have found the species of your palm.  The density of the leaves in the crown is very impressive.  How many leaves per palm would you guess?  That was the first thing I noticed and said huh?  Causiarum has an open crown, not so many leaves packed in per foot of trunk.

[Fusca]

For what it's worth, here is a pic of Sabal guatemalensis from Mercer Arboretum in Houston while in flower.  Seeds are 10-12 mm wide.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Fusca

[CodyORB]

So I took a close look at the larger (flowering) one, it must have around 20-25 leaves. The smaller one has around 15-20 as well. The larger one is more dense. Keep in mind between the palms there is a lot of “combination” and denser than reality foliage. Some more images:

The 2 trunks, the one on the left is flowering:

 

The flowering one has more closely spaced leaves, almost jammed together:

The smaller one is more normally spaced:

 

The base spacing is a little more noticeable on the flowering one. Not a great pic but there were so many seeds in the way, haha:

And the smaller one. It may actually do with the more squatted trunk shape: 
 

Edited November 11, 2020 by CodyORB

[CodyORB]

One more thing, here’s that Chamaerops I mentioned earlier’

[Steve in Florida]

Sabal uresana green form has inflorescences shorter than leaves and seeds that average 10-11mm wide.

[CodyORB]

An update, they’re ripening! I’ll grab a few and get final measurements and try to close the mystery!

[CodyORB]

[CodyORB]

A year has gone by. Unfortunately there are no seeds but I looked closer at the inflorescences, some reach around the edge of the leaves.

Further I did some research and found that the inflorescence, seed size, trunk width, and other characteristics matched the description of Sabal Dominguensis shared here (https://tropicalplantbook.com/garden_plants/palms/palms_new/sabal_domingensis.htm) and here (https://www.monaconatureencyclopedia.com/sabal-domingensis/?lang=en). The other option is Sabal maritima, although the latter has a “petioles covered by tiny scales” (monaconatureencyclopedia.com/sabal-maritima/?lang=en).

Maybe case closed!