Veitchia joannis, the fastest palm in my garden (zone 9b)

[pietropuccio 372]

Veitchia joannis

Two years ago:

 

Today:

[Jan Jo 363]

Wow! That's really impressive! Never thought it would be a 9b palm, you must have a nice microclimate? I was crossing my fingers for mine in 10a in Spain.. Yours looks very happy! Congratulations

J

(P.S. Is that a bottle palm to the left??) 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Jan Jo

[PalmatierMeg 5,440]

Veitchias are rockets. Good work.

[WaianaeCrider 633]

Not here on O`ahu's west side.  This row was planted about 20 years ago all were about the same size.

[pietropuccio 372]

Thanks to all!

- Jan Jo,
I do not think will have problems in Cadiz.
Yes, it is a Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

[Jim in Los Altos 2,303]

Pietro, This looks like a wonderful 10a or possibly even a 10b climate. What is your typical lowest temperature in the winter? 

[pietropuccio 372]

11 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Pietro, This looks like a wonderful 10a or possibly even a 10b climate.

Many thanks for your kind interest, but I believe that the USDA method cannot be applied literally to the Mediterranean climate that does not have particularly low extreme minimum temperatures, but a long period of average low values. An adult tropical palm can bear values close to or just below 0 ° C for very short times, but it does not survive a long period of average low minimum temperatures, such as we have here in winter. The values of the zones generally reported in the climate maps of Europe found on the web are overestimated for this reason. Palermo is located at the high limit of zone 9b, for example the Hyophorbe lagenicaulis in the photo overcomes the winter without or with little damage to the leaves because it is in a position facing south, the same species dies in less mild winters (tried twice) if it is exposed to the north, which is why it cannot be classified as zone 10.
Sorry for my bad English.

[palmfriend 1,508]

Hi,

over here there super-rockets, too!

March 2015 - two seed grown young plants... and this is what they look now...

...in late summer 2020! (Tje same two plant!!) 

Veitchias are simply amazing!!!

best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

 

[Jim in Los Altos 2,303]

20 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

Many thanks for your kind interest, but I believe that the USDA method cannot be applied literally to the Mediterranean climate that does not have particularly low extreme minimum temperatures, but a long period of average low values. An adult tropical palm can bear values close to or just below 0 ° C for very short times, but it does not survive a long period of average low minimum temperatures, such as we have here in winter. The values of the zones generally reported in the climate maps of Europe found on the web are overestimated for this reason. Palermo is located at the high limit of zone 9b, for example the Hyophorbe lagenicaulis in the photo overcomes the winter without or with little damage to the leaves because it is in a position facing south, the same species dies in less mild winters (tried twice) if it is exposed to the north, which is why it cannot be classified as zone 10.
Sorry for my bad English.

I live in a typical Mediterranean climate so I know what you’re talking about. 10a here is not at all the same as 10a in Florida for instance. The good thing is that species like Rhopalostylis, Hedescepe, Howea, Ceroxylon, and others grow well here but most will die quickly in a tropical 10a. 

[pietropuccio 372]

2 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

I live in a typical Mediterranean climate so I know what you’re talking about. 10a here is not at all the same as 10a in Florida for instance.

The problem is precisely this, if it is not possible to exploit the experiences made, for example in Florida, in the Mediterranean regions, the climatic classification according to the USDA method is useless for these areas. A method, a correction, must be found to make this classification uniform. For 50 years I have been making attempts to acclimate tropical and subtropical species in my garden, I also follow in the forums the similar experiences made in other Mediterranean gardens, I am convinced that an empirical method that gives precautionary results is to apply the USDA method to the letter and decrease the result by one or half zone (to take account of particular microclimates). Eg. Palermo in theory would be 10b, in reality it is to be considered 9b.

[palmsOrl 1,483]

21 hours ago, palmfriend said:

Hi,

over here there super-rockets, too!

March 2015 - two seed grown young plants... and this is what they look now...

...in late summer 2020! (Tje same two plant!!) 

Veitchias are simply amazing!!!

best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

 

Are those two main palms Veitchia?  They strike me as "Clinostigma'ish" or something else different.  Either way, stunning palms!

[palmfriend 1,508]

1 hour ago, palmsOrl said:

Are those two main palms Veitchia?  They strike me as "Clinostigma'ish" or something else different.  Either way, stunning palms!

I agree, they are really tropical looking. But I have no doubt that I am correct with these ones - at least now. I have grown them from

seed while keeping a close eye on them, last year I ordered V. metiti seeds and in (this year's) spring I got another delivery containing V. arecina, V. spriralis

and V. winin. The germination rate of the last two orders was phenomenal, they were literally rocketing in my greenhouse, so the fastest ones

of all four new species are already planted out WHILE all my other Clinostigmas (samoense, ponapense and harlandii) I have planted out four years

ago haven't topped five feet until now. (C.samoense almost five feet, C. harlandii about four, C. ponapense 1 feet max.) While C. harlandii already went

pinnate, the other two Clinostigmas still have those nice looking undivided leaves. 

Here are my Clinostigmas:

C. samoense

C. harlandii and 

C. ponapense.

In contrast my last and this year's order of...

(super fast) V. metiti

this year's spring sprout - 1st : V. arecina (the blocks are for wind protection during our typhoon season...sry for ruining the image) 

2nd: V. spiralis and finally

 

3rd: (a bit slower) V. winin

I am myself a big Clinostigma fan so I have a very close eye especially on this species. At the moment I would say that we are not a 

"Clinostigma-perfect" but "Clinostigma-friendly" area while probably an almost "Veitchia-perfect" area... 

That is what I can say at the moment, I am sorry for this flood of images but I wanted to make my statement kind of solid.

best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

PS: I got finally a hand on C. savoryanum seeds from habitat last spring, have already fifteen sprouts and I am going to document their development

here on pt. It might get interesting.

PS: @pietropuccio No hijacking intended! My apologizes! 

 

 

 

[Jim in Los Altos 2,303]

22 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

The problem is precisely this, if it is not possible to exploit the experiences made, for example in Florida, in the Mediterranean regions, the climatic classification according to the USDA method is useless for these areas. A method, a correction, must be found to make this classification uniform. For 50 years I have been making attempts to acclimate tropical and subtropical species in my garden, I also follow in the forums the similar experiences made in other Mediterranean gardens, I am convinced that an empirical method that gives precautionary results is to apply the USDA method to the letter and decrease the result by one or half zone (to take account of particular microclimates). Eg. Palermo in theory would be 10b, in reality it is to be considered 9b.

That would apply only to the more tropical palm species. There are several cool climate genus like Hedescepe, Ceroxylon, and Rhopalostylis for instance that are 10a palms, marginal 9b, that don’t need Zone reclassification in a Mediterranean climate. So 10a or 10b are still 10a or 10b. My Mediterranean 10a supports Roystonea, Wodyetia, certain Licuala and Pinanga, etc. despite our cool winters and cool summer nights. 

[pietropuccio 372]

Dear Jim,
Hedyscepe, Ceroxylon and Rhopalostylis are generally considered to be zone 9b (and above), for example:
https://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/57433/
https://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/57536/
https://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/157637/

Roystonea, Wodyetia and Licuala (peltata var. Sumawongii, spinosa and ramsayi) are marginal in zone 9b (I also have them in my garden). The best indicator to decide if a zone is 9b or 10a is the Cocos nucifera, if it lives decently without protection the zone is 10a, if it dies or survives with great difficulty it is 9b.

[konarikcy 59]

I agree Pietro. Living in Cyprus, I began applying the USDA zone system years ago as a guide, especially as garden nurseries here now import a lot of non native tropical plants. Cyprus is a small island with high snow covered mountains in the winter in the island centre and the sunniest beaches like Ayia Napa with scorching summer sun in the 40'sC for months on end, literally less than 100 miles away. We have no autumn- we will go from the hot sun to 3 months of cool/cold damp winters.  With such a variation, the island's general USDA of 9b-10a is  relatively meaningless but its a start when you know nothing about a plant.   I have,over the years learnt the hard way, checking to see if a plant I find grows in the US and Australia in area similar to myself from internet sites.

Over the years in my garden, tall trees have formed a barrier or canopy, a microsystem created and I can push the edge and grow plants that would normally not survive according to the USDA system. I have lost plants  especially with the "I must have regardless frenzy we all get" hoping I will be the lucky one. But now I know what I can grow here to a great extent here and as I have an established garden I can afford to attempt the generally unattainable in the hope...

So, to us living in the Mediterranean, the USDA zone system  can only be used as an initial guideline for minimum temperature and even then it does not take into account endless cold nights just above that temperature with little sun during the day. Also of course, there is the question of the hot summer sun to be taken into account

[pietropuccio 372]

Dear Katerina,
many thanks for your precious testimony, I too have followed the same path as you and I have come to the same conclusions, now after so much experimenting I know every corner of my small garden and what I can, or better I could, try with some success, unfortunately now I have no more space and especially time, given my age. Keep us updated on your experiments, very useful for us Mediterraneans.

[Reeverse 601]

I have a bunch of unknown Veitchia from Kopsick gardens. Rockets in my 9b canopy garden 

[konarikcy 59]

Pietro,  my garden in Nicosia is also full. A small indication below. However I now begin again (also in my late age) with a much larger garden of a holiday home on coastal Ayia Napa with over 2000m2 of land and a clean slate. Must be a different zone but not officially. Am very excited as the winter never goes below 7oC according to locals and the summers are over 40oC but not as high as Nicosia. Am going to include palm trees that would never survive in Nicosia and have already found a few to try on the internet ( very restricted in Europe unlike our friends in the States). Have just bought Veitchia Spiralis, dypsis leptocheilos, verschaffeltia splendida, chambeyronia macrocara hookerii, Archontophoenix purpurea and dyctiosperma alba seedlings to try.  I've no idea how they will do as no one grows anything like these over here.Have already got large archontophoenix cunninghamianas, bismarkias, livistonas chinensis and cycads locally.  By the way, do you have a good supplier in Europe? Katerina

[pietropuccio 372]

My sincere congratulations for your beautiful garden, I imagine what the new one will be like where you will have much more space. Of the purchased seedlings only the Verschaffeltia should not make it, the others will have no problems. I suggest you try the Carpoxylon macrospermum, a beautiful palm with fast growth, from me a first attempt failed, but you could be successful if there is no lack of water, this is a plant of only 4 years grown in pots: