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Fastest of the ultra hardy trunking Sabals?


Advective

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Between the three hardiest trunking Sabals of Birmingham, Brazoria and Louisiana, which one develops a trunk and grows vertically the quickest?

Birmingham is essentially a S. Palmetto in slow motion. The vertical spacing between leaf boots is similar to a Palmetto but the slow frond production leads to only a few inches of trunk a year.

Brazoria produces fronds faster but the leaf bases are stacked on top of each other like a non-trunking S. Minor. Trunk growth is about a foot a decade, at least early on. This may improve later in life?

Louisiana is an unknown to me. It has fast frond production like Brazoria but I think it grows trunk faster, and is possibly the fastest of the bunch?

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I don't know they are all pretty slow.  Variance in genetics and placement can matter most.  

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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My mexicana took 10 years before it began to trunk, but since then it is growing about foot per year. Also, I've never seen any kind of frost damage. I think the coldest winter we had was in the mid or maybe even low teens.

I don't have any experience with other Sabals.

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My Louisiana was planted about 6 years ago as a 5 gallon. When compared with older minors on either side, this year I can tell its trunk is pushing up instead of only down (growing in zone 6b).

I haven't had a Brazoria or Birmingham.

A couple of years ago, Plant Delights website had an article under blogs that had descriptions of three Palmetto ecotypes they listed as hardy to 7b. One of these was the Bald Head Island Palmetto.

 

 

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On 9/26/2020 at 11:32 AM, Advective said:

Between the three hardiest trunking Sabals of Birmingham, Brazoria and Louisiana, which one develops a trunk and grows vertically the quickest?

 

What plant zone are you?

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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19 hours ago, Matt N- Dallas said:

If the three- S. Louisiana has been the fastest and Birmingham the absolute slowest.  

I thought S. Louisiana was a minor? 

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2 hours ago, Allen said:

What plant zone are you?

I'm in an 8A zone, growing a Sabal Mexicana. I may be moving to a 7A zone in the future and I'm looking for the best trunking Sabal to grow without heavy protection.

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2 hours ago, Advective said:

I'm in an 8A zone, growing a Sabal Mexicana. I may be moving to a 7A zone in the future and I'm looking for the best trunking Sabal to grow without heavy protection.

I would probably try a Birmingham.  You understand these take many years to trunk.  http://www.garysnursery.com/SabalBirmingham.html will give you a idea.  keep in mind the start 1999 pic is already many years old.   A Trachy is the superior grower in 7A but will need protection many years.  A Trachy will outgrow those Sabals by so much it's not even funny.    By the wall to left is a Trachy in back and in front of it a Birmingham of roughly the same age.  

 

 

IMG_1971.JPG

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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4 hours ago, RJ said:

I thought S. Louisiana was a minor? 

I believe your right, Lousiana being a trunking Minor. Mine puts out fronds at the same pace as my Causiarum with both being in pots. 

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T J 

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27 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Mine puts out fronds at the same pace as my Causiarum with both being in pots.

TJ, glad to hear that you got yourself a S. causiarum!  :greenthumb:

Jon Sunder

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34 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

I believe your right, Lousiana being a trunking Minor. Mine puts out fronds at the same pace as my Causiarum with both being in pots. 

Alright... that's impressive. So where do I get Louisiana? Heck I'll buy 100's of seeds too if the come true to seed.... 

Edited by RJ
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44 minutes ago, Fusca said:

TJ, glad to hear that you got yourself a S. causiarum!  :greenthumb:

 

40 minutes ago, RJ said:

Alright... that's impressive. So where do I get Louisiana? Heck I'll buy 100's of seeds too if the come true to seed.... 

Ok so both palms were bought from Jungle Music @Phil as liners. Over a year later both of them have roots busting out of there 24" tall ceramic pots =/ I would love to get a hold of some seed myself of Lousiana. @Fusca I also have grown a bunch of Causiarum from seed now, many are 2 or 3 strap leaf seedlings. 

T J 

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The 2 taller blue pots are them with Lousiana being on the right. Sorry i don't have pics of them by themselves. 

20200920_150739.jpg

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T J 

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Supposedly the S. minor Louisiana is not as cold hardy once it develops a trunk. I grew both the McCurtain and the Louisiana from seed. The Lousiana took longer to flower for me. This is the 4th year that it's flowered and the first good crop. The Lousiana is 2 to 3 times larger than the minors of the same age.  The seedling volunteers are perfectly hardy here in Zone 7b/8a and simple to germinate -- just scratch the ground up with a rake and scatter the seeds and they'll germinate mid-July. The Sabals are slow growing compared to the Trachys. I grew a T. wagnerianus from seed and it had 5 feet of trunk before an extreme winter did it in. My Lousiana's got a big base but not sure it can be considered a trunk yet and I grew it from seed the same year as the waggie.  The leaves on the Lousiana are humongous so you might take that into consideration when choosing a location. I set mine out where it gets the worst NNW winter blizzard winds howling across a half-mile of open field shredding its leaves. 

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7 hours ago, ESVA said:

Supposedly the S. minor Louisiana is not as cold hardy once it develops a trunk. I grew both the McCurtain and the Louisiana from seed. The Lousiana took longer to flower for me. This is the 4th year that it's flowered and the first good crop. The Lousiana is 2 to 3 times larger than the minors of the same age.  The seedling volunteers are perfectly hardy here in Zone 7b/8a and simple to germinate -- just scratch the ground up with a rake and scatter the seeds and they'll germinate mid-July. The Sabals are slow growing compared to the Trachys. I grew a T. wagnerianus from seed and it had 5 feet of trunk before an extreme winter did it in. My Lousiana's got a big base but not sure it can be considered a trunk yet and I grew it from seed the same year as the waggie.  The leaves on the Lousiana are humongous so you might take that into consideration when choosing a location. I set mine out where it gets the worst NNW winter blizzard winds howling across a half-mile of open field shredding its leaves. 

Do you have a pic of your S. Louisiana? IF you have some extra seed I would certainly be willing to make it worth your time? 

 

Thanks,

RJ 

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35 minutes ago, RJ said:

Do you have a pic of your S. Louisiana? IF you have some extra seed I would certainly be willing to make it worth your time? 

 

Thanks,

RJ 

I've got some pictures of my palms on my ESVA thread, but  here are some more pics of the Louisiana taken this morning. It's over 6 feet tall (the leaves) and it's got bloom stalks which are visible in this pic:

e65c4e38-3ea1-4a32-a22b-6a3f64ad2c1e-0.j 

 

The base of the Louisiana can't yet be considered a trunk though it's probably at least a foot across:

a5aa9e89-9415-473a-9020-b641a6862299-0.j

 

Some pots of seedlings from last year and this year. Placed these pots in the shade of a pecan tree so I didn't have to water so often. Lost a third of the seedlings from last year from neglecting watering.  The shade really helped with the water and I didn't lose any seedlings this summer despite the severe 2-month long drought in which I almost lost some 8-foot tall rhododendrons. 

291c2f6e-bba6-4140-a02a-13d69b6f9a0f-0.j

 

Probably got a couple dozen or more volunteers growing around it which survived the 2017 & 2018 blizzards unfazed. 

6f860168-2474-4b9b-981c-710f63d0b08c-0.j  

 

 

 

 

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I'm in Raleigh, NC, zone 7b but just over the line from 8a. Earlier this spring, I planted three sabal minors, one sabal brazoriensis, three birminghams, a bunch of bald head islands and three trachycarpus novas. In that time, the trachys have each put out about four or five new fronds. The sabal minors have put out 1 and a half  new fronds, the birminghams have each put out one new frond and the brazoriensis has put out three new fronds. The bald head islands are babies so their fronds have only gotten bigger and maybe added one frond each. No louisiannas here but so far, of the sabals, the brazoriensis has been the fastest for me. And if you're in a marginal climate, fast growing may not be your friend. Typically, the slower growing varieties are hardier. 

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1 hour ago, knikfar said:

I'm in Raleigh, NC, zone 7b but just over the line from 8a. Earlier this spring, I planted three sabal minors, one sabal brazoriensis, three birminghams, a bunch of bald head islands and three trachycarpus novas. In that time, the trachys have each put out about four or five new fronds. The sabal minors have put out 1 and a half  new fronds, the birminghams have each put out one new frond and the brazoriensis has put out three new fronds. The bald head islands are babies so their fronds have only gotten bigger and maybe added one frond each. No louisiannas here but so far, of the sabals, the brazoriensis has been the fastest for me. And if you're in a marginal climate, fast growing may not be your friend. Typically, the slower growing varieties are hardier. 

Probably all true but I'm not sure most people realize the time these Sabal varieties take to put on much trunk?  I'd say 10 years+???  Vs a similar sized Trachy that you can have a good trunk going in 3-4?

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YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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Sabal Brazoria arent slow if you water them a lot.  It is the only true trunking sabal that can survive 7b in the south. 

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2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Sabal Brazoria arent slow if you water them a lot.  It is the only true trunking sabal that can survive 7b in the south. 

I've heard reports that sabal palmetto "bald head island" can also survive unprotected in 7b, but I can't attest to that personally (at least not yet)

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Interesting topic. The original Sabal Birmingham was 15 to 20 feet tall. Given that Sabals hate root disturbance, and that the original died only after multiple moves, It's intriguing that it could still be alive.

You would need lots of patience and money to find the ultimate potential of trunking minor and palmetto varieties/hybrids in the upper Southeastern US. My perfect thought experiment is to plant 15 gallon Sabals along the south wall of heated structures in zones 6b, 7a, and 7b as follows: Sabal Louisiana, Sabal Brazoria, Sabal Birmingham, Sabal Tamaulipas, and the four Plant Delights zone 7b palmetto cultivars. Maybe something wonderful in 20 years(!) (but not commercially viable?). The complete fantasy is to get DNA analyses for all.

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On 9/27/2020 at 4:59 PM, Advective said:

I'm in an 8A zone, growing a Sabal Mexicana. I may be moving to a 7A zone in the future and I'm looking for the best trunking Sabal to grow without heavy protection.

How long have you had the Sabal mexicana in the ground and are you east or west of I35?

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I have Sabal mexicana in Zone 8A, East Texas. It only took some damage when we went down to 8F three years ago. It's a pretty tough old girl. 10 years in the ground as a triple.

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Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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On 10/19/2020 at 11:57 PM, amh said:

How long have you had the Sabal mexicana in the ground and are you east or west of I35?

I'm east of I35. It was a 6 foot tall 15 gallon planted in 2013. It's 14 feet now with one foot of clear trunk.

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On 10/21/2020 at 3:31 PM, buffy said:

I have Sabal mexicana in Zone 8A, East Texas. It only took some damage when we went down to 8F three years ago. It's a pretty tough old girl. 10 years in the ground as a triple.

 

20 minutes ago, Advective said:

I'm east of I35. It was a 6 foot tall 15 gallon planted in 2013. It's 14 feet now with one foot of clear trunk.

Thanks for the info. I've been wanting a Sabal mexicana for years, but have been afraid that I was too cold and wet.

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On 9/27/2020 at 8:02 PM, RJ said:

Alright... that's impressive. So where do I get Louisiana? Heck I'll buy 100's of seeds too if the come true to seed.... 

I bought some Louisiana seed from this eBay source earlier this year. They might be a member, but I am not sure.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/piedmontpalms

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I am less than a mile from I-35. My mexicana grew almost a foot per year once it got a fat trunk.

Here in Austin haven't seen even a hint of any permanent or temporary frost damage.

Look at my reply below, I have pictures.

 

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Sabal mexicana is very hardy.  Only slightly less leaf hardy then palmetto.  I've only seen them have minor leaf burn once in rural outskirts of the dfw metroplex.  

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4 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Sabal mexicana is very hardy.  Only slightly less leaf hardy then palmetto.  I've only seen them have minor leaf burn once in rural outskirts of the dfw metroplex.  

Whats the prospect for 8A with clay and an occasional wet hard freeze?

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On 10/25/2020 at 2:57 PM, amh said:

Whats the prospect for 8A with clay and an occasional wet hard freeze?

Good. The only time I experienced any leaf damage was when we went down to 8F. 

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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4 minutes ago, buffy said:

Good. The only time I experienced any leaf damage was when we went down to 8F. 

could one survive in dc

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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On 10/25/2020 at 2:57 PM, amh said:

Whats the prospect for 8A with clay and an occasional wet hard freeze?

Not an issue with mexicana. 

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31 minutes ago, climate change virginia said:

could one survive in dc

No, dc is colder than we are with longer winters. Again, palmetto is slightly hardier and if it wont live in your area neither will mexicana. 

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I never understood the cold hardy fascination with sabal minor from tropical tamaulipas.

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30 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

No, dc is colder than we are with longer winters. Again, palmetto is slightly hardier and if it wont live in your area neither will mexicana. 

gotcha should I just grow windmill palms instead of sabal palmettos then? what about a birmingham?

Edited by climate change virginia

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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On 10/28/2020 at 8:27 AM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Not an issue with mexicana. 

Thanks.

BTW, I bought some Brazoria seed from you and had 92% germination.

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On 10/28/2020 at 7:53 AM, buffy said:

Good. The only time I experienced any leaf damage was when we went down to 8F. 

Thanks for the info, I think everyone outside coastal Texas hit 8o that winter.

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4 hours ago, amh said:

Thanks.

BTW, I bought some Brazoria seed from you and had 92% germination.

That's what happens when sellers offer fresh seed, and is why we now harvest 85% of the seed we grow. After buying $30k of seeds and wasting tons of time on bunk seed we took matters into our own hands.

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