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Butia yatay – Seed Shape


Collectorpalms

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Hello, when I received seeds of Butia yatay seeds over 10 years ago from RPS, the seeds were fairly large and the shape of footballs. Does anyone else have any comments? I saw twice people selling seeds of these and they look like regular round butia seeds. 

butia-yatay-11190070_0_1_800x1600_38f67.jpg

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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Ryan, two years ago I collected some seeds at the Italian Riviera which looked exactly like the ones of your picture. The palm didn't look like a normal Butia. Members of the EPS (European palm society) identified it as Butia yatay. Got two seedlings out of 4 seeds up to now.

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wxBanner?bannertype=wu_bluestripes_metri

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That photo from RPS seems to be an accurate photo of Butia yatay seeds from what I've seen online but I don't have experience with Butia yatay.  This photo from Palmpedia shows a similar shape and from what I understood the seeds on the right are actually odorata (not eriosphata) and the seeds on the left are catarinensis (not capitata).

998px-Seed_butias.jpg.b0f15b86612cd5cde0cbbf539a4062ad.jpg

 

This post from 2016 shows several different seeds of different Butia species and makes me wonder if Joseph labeled the yatay and "Fairchild dwarf" correctly because the "Fairchild dwarf" seeds more closely resemble the yatay in the RPS photo and he got the yatay seeds from RPS.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/51656-unknown-butia-sp/

 

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Jon Sunder

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I bought 200 seeds from RPS in June and they were all round. The seeds I received do not look the first rps reference photo that shows football shape.

I purchased some B. odorata this summer from another seed source and they were all mostly football shaped. From this same supplier I also purchased B. yatay and they were round, similar to the round yatay seeds I received from rps.

 

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Sounds suspicious to me. 

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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Those seeds look like Butia witeckii seeds.  It was formerly considered a variation of Butia yatay and some people still believe it should be lumped in with Butia yatay. 

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7 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Those seeds look like Butia witeckii seeds.  It was formerly considered a variation of Butia yatay and some people still believe it should be lumped in with Butia yatay. 

 

384px-Witeckii2.jpg

butia witceckii.jpg

yatah seeds.jfif

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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12 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Those seeds look like Butia witeckii seeds.  It was formerly considered a variation of Butia yatay and some people still believe it should be lumped in with Butia yatay. 

Steve,

Can you confirm the shape of yatay seeds you have received in the past? These are my yatay seed from RPS this summer, all round. Similar to yatay seeds I got from another seed house this summer as well.

 

20200922_125514.jpg

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Here are two images from my trip to Argentina. 

(Sorry, I am computer incompetent to zoom in on the B. yatay seeds. I can transmit the original image to others diectly, ..if interested, PM me. )

IMG_0784.JPG

IMG_1026.JPG

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San Francisco, California

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I got these “Butia yatay” from RPS around a month or so ago. A friend of mine claims he has it on good authority that they are in fact Butia missionera (a close relative of B. yatay and separated from the B. yatay group in 2011). 

1230B460-A2B0-46BC-803B-3736838DD31F.jpeg

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For those of you that frequent Facebook, I’ve set up a group called “Pommy palms”, where many of the palms I’ve seen since emigrating to Australia have been documented. If you wish to be a member, copy and paste “Pommy palms” into Facebook to view the page and click “Join group”.

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10 hours ago, palmsrgreat said:

Steve,

Can you confirm the shape of yatay seeds you have received in the past? These are my yatay seed from RPS this summer, all round. Similar to yatay seeds I got from another seed house this summer as well.

 

20200922_125514.jpg

I have seeding Butia yatay trees from two sources and their seeds are long with one end more pointed than the other.  Years ago I got much more rounded seeds then I expected from Trebrown.   At the time I surmised they were crossed with Butia odorata and did not try to germinate them.  Since then new species have been defined that were formerly lumped into Butia yatay because local populations were scrutinized more closely.   

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Thank you all. I have concluded that the the yatay that I am interested in are 

On 9/22/2020 at 2:02 PM, Darold Petty said:

Here are two images from my trip to Argentina. 

(Sorry, I am computer incompetent to zoom in on the B. yatay seeds. I can transmit the original image to others diectly, ..if interested, PM me. )

IMG_0784.JPG

IMG_1026.JPG

these are the ones I want. Those are the big  Yatay in my opinion. 

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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  • 1 year later...
On 9/22/2020 at 3:35 PM, Jonathan Haycock said:

I got these “Butia yatay” from RPS around a month or so ago. A friend of mine claims he has it on good authority that they are in fact Butia missionera (a close relative of B. yatay and separated from the B. yatay group in 2011). 

1230B460-A2B0-46BC-803B-3736838DD31F.jpeg

I have had a similar experience.  Further reading led me to believe there was some variation described as B. missionera, but the seeds from rps do not look like the seed pictures they post. Its strange to me. How can this be the same species? Can the seed shape really be this variable?  Here are mine:

 

20211015_120831.jpg

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To clarify, the B. missionera species category did not stick and these were kept under B. yatay. But I find this situation quite puzzling.

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On 9/22/2020 at 4:35 PM, Jonathan Haycock said:

I got these “Butia yatay” from RPS around a month or so ago. A friend of mine claims he has it on good authority that they are in fact Butia missionera (a close relative of B. yatay and separated from the B. yatay group in 2011). 

1230B460-A2B0-46BC-803B-3736838DD31F.jpeg

All the Butia yatay seed I have seen have a beak on one end and the other end is more rounded.

Edited by Steve in Florida
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This has me questioning now… I got a few hundred of B. yatay seeds from RPS as well, but all the seeds were round. I hope they are the real deal, but I’m still confused what is what though…

Regardless, I’ve had great germination from these seeds and they have been relatively fast growers in my greenhouse so far. 

Zone 8b, Csb (Warm-summer Mediterranean climate). 1,940 annual sunshine hours 
Annual lows-> 19/20: -5.0C, 20/21: -5.5C, 21/22: -8.3C, 22/23: -9.4C, 23/24: 1.1C (so far!)

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On 10/18/2021 at 6:06 AM, Frond-friend42 said:

To clarify, the B. missionera species category did not stick and these were kept under B. yatay. But I find this situation quite puzzling.

I've just checked https://wcsp.science.kew.org/namedetail.do?name_id=466847 and it appears you are correct, B. missionera is now under B. yatay. 

If the seeds I got from RPS were indeed Missionera yatays, I find this a little odd as their morphology was much closer to B. odorata than B. yatay.

For those of you that frequent Facebook, I’ve set up a group called “Pommy palms”, where many of the palms I’ve seen since emigrating to Australia have been documented. If you wish to be a member, copy and paste “Pommy palms” into Facebook to view the page and click “Join group”.

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On 10/17/2021 at 8:01 PM, ShadyDan said:

This has me questioning now… I got a few hundred of B. yatay seeds from RPS as well, but all the seeds were round. I hope they are the real deal, but I’m still confused what is what though…

Regardless, I’ve had great germination from these seeds and they have been relatively fast growers in my greenhouse so far. 

Yes.  Are they going to be big like the pictures I see of yatays?...

What media did you use? Do you Crack them open? I am currently in the middle of a 2-week soak for mine and am planning on some mixed approach to hedge my bets...

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On 9/22/2020 at 6:31 AM, Steve in Florida said:

Those seeds look like Butia witeckii seeds.  It was formerly considered a variation of Butia yatay and some people still believe it should be lumped in with Butia yatay. 

I germinated witeckii recently and they are huge seeds, pretty much oval shaped Jubaea, yatay are significantly smaller. But yes you are right, they are part of the yatay group, different enough to be a distinct species? I think based on the seed alone then yes… probably.. but there are a few differences other than this

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RPS were (not sure if they still are) selling seeds of yatay that turned out to be missionera, they were slightly oval but were beaked. When I questioned them, they would not divulge their source but assured me they were yatay. Missionera is another palm that has only fairly recently been made a separate species from yatay but is in the yatay group of butia 

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4 hours ago, Frond-friend42 said:

Yes.  Are they going to be big like the pictures I see of yatays?...

What media did you use? Do you Crack them open? I am currently in the middle of a 2-week soak for mine and am planning on some mixed approach to hedge my bets...

Can't answer the first question, as I'm not sure what the Missionera variety is like at maturity. Maybe @Vic has some insight on how this variety differs from regular yatay or odorata? Specifically would be interested in size, growth rate, and cold / cool hardiness.

For sowing, I use a roughly 50/50 peat/perlite mix. I only soaked mine in warm water for 2 days, then sowed in a community pot with bottom heat. Once I see the first leave appears above the surface, I separate it out to 4" pots and grow them up from there. I do not crack them open, nor have I with any seeds I've grown (invitation for rot IMO). I received these seeds about a year ago from RPS and I'm probably about 75% germination from the batch. ~50% of germination happened in the first 3 months, but they are still erratically germinating to this day.

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Zone 8b, Csb (Warm-summer Mediterranean climate). 1,940 annual sunshine hours 
Annual lows-> 19/20: -5.0C, 20/21: -5.5C, 21/22: -8.3C, 22/23: -9.4C, 23/24: 1.1C (so far!)

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6 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Can't answer the first question, as I'm not sure what the Missionera variety is like at maturity. Maybe @Vic has some insight on how this variety differs from regular yatay or odorata? Specifically would be interested in size, growth rate, and cold / cool hardiness.

For sowing, I use a roughly 50/50 peat/perlite mix. I only soaked mine in warm water for 2 days, then sowed in a community pot with bottom heat. Once I see the first leave appears above the surface, I separate it out to 4" pots and grow them up from there. I do not crack them open, nor have I with any seeds I've grown (invitation for rot IMO). I received these seeds about a year ago from RPS and I'm probably about 75% germination from the batch. ~50% of germination happened in the first 3 months, but they are still erratically germinating to this day.

 

Butia missionera 'Mission yatay palm' is a stunning palm with a slim trunk, small and compact crown. 

Main differences from yatay:

Fruit yellow 3.5 – 4.5 cm long vs 4.2 – 5.5 cm
Crown with 25 40 leaves vs 16 -24

I only have 3-4 year old seedlings of these and they are slow for me to get going, much like any Butia. I also don't know about cold hardiness either, but I'd guess similar to yatay.

IMG_0427.JPG

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So I harvested some seed from a Butia at my brother's old property back in July when I dug up my two blue Butia odorata.  Funny thing was that these Butia we're all planted in the ground at the same time, but while the blue odorata had about two foot of trunk this other Butia had nearly five feet of trunk.  Again, all were planted at the same time and received the same care....or lack of.

Strangely when I cleaned the fruit the seeds were football/oval shaped, not round like the odorata I harvested from my neighbors tree.  I have these now in germination and hoping for some seedlings.  Also contemplating seeing if I can return and possibly dig that one as well....

PXL_20210828_123032589.thumb.jpg.a4889ee2146afa7b4ba15d07bd7401d9.jpgPXL_20210903_191021689.thumb.jpg.7115fa413c37e41a48a8148bfd291c55.jpgPXL_20210903_202337886.thumb.jpg.22248bb179cdc66bc8f25e46ffa291f4.jpg

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  • 4 months later...

Got some to pop after about 8 months.

Is this double germination doomed to become a double? I don't know how I could separate them.

20220224_232550.jpg

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Someone who's smarter than me can chime in but I don't see why you couldn't separate them, after they've grown a couple strap leaves and the seed petiole shrivels and separates from the seed.  Or, grow it as a double!  I have a double Butia (odorata, I believe) and am looking forward to seeing how it turns out.  I'll get a pic during daylight, the bigger of the two is about 4.5 feet tall.  Starting this summer, I plan on pruning the larger one more aggressively to try to allow the smaller one to catch up. 

Edited by Jesse PNW
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7 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

Someone who's smarter than me can chime in but I don't see why you couldn't separate them, after they've grown a couple strap leaves and the seed petiole shrivels and separates from the seed.  

Yes, you can definitely separate them when the have had significant enough growth (top and bottom) and no longer need sustinance from the seed.  I know with the mule seed I got from Eric he said he typically sees quite a few doubles which he then separates once both have good root development.

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  • 6 months later...

Well I don't know what Butia I received ( small yet uniformly very football shaped) , but its not typical. Should be fun to grow with the only Butia I found locally with seeds ( very round).

butia seed.jpg

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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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  • 1 month later...

84C0CB1C-4F1E-4228-B052-0E55E353EBFA.thumb.jpeg.f39301276320f7e868735ba6a2d467ed.jpeg

To give you an idea what Butia Yata will look like after a few years of growth. It has picked up speed since planted out this Spring. Looking forward to watching this one grow. 

Edited by Gallop

Paul Gallop

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  • 10 months later...
On 9/22/2020 at 12:07 PM, Darold Petty said:

These are two of my favorite images,

IMG_0780.JPG

IMG_0777.JPG

Thankfully I didn't get such a bumper crop of sticky fruit dropping from the 1st time flowering of my B. yatay! Would have been tedious to gather them all. I noticed the ants and squirrels have already started to feast on them. Not sure who the pollinators were as I only saw one bee visit the inflorescence, along with the ubiquitous ants in the daytime.

 

20230930_120300.jpg

ButiaYatay1.png

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