“Alexander Palms” P. Elegans being confused for A. Alexandrae?

[chad2468emr]

I went to Lake Underhill nursery in Orlando yesterday and imagine my surprise and delight when across the nursery I see a sign for 8+ foot “Alexander Palms” for just $50! They were also specifically labeled as A. Alexandrae. 

That being said, when I got close, I became confused. The main reason I love Archontophoenix species so much is because (despite the occasional foliage loss due to a freeze) they can actually do pretty well in ground in this area and they have a much more tropical look than the dreaded Christmas Palm. I really don’t like Christmas palms at all because they always look “ratty” to me, they’re over used, and their trunks are too slender. Archontophoenix species tend to have much thicker trunks paired with more rigid and elegant looking leaves with thinner leaflets. Or at least so I think?...

I wish I grabbed a picture, but some quick googling has led me to believe the nursery was confusing P. Elegans with A. Alexandrae. It looks like some folks consider P. Elegans “Alexander Palms” instead of A. Alexandrae. The following picture looks exactly like what I was seeing at the nursery, which made me nervous because I’ve admittedly never been able to see a large Archontophoenix species in-person, and these looked a heck of a lot like Christmas palms which (have I mentioned) I can’t stand, and I’m currently growing a whole plethora of Archonto species up from seedlings right now. 

The site I got that from cites P. Elegans as a “Alexander palm” so I’m hoping the nursery just received “Alexander palms” without a true species name assigned and then labeled them as A. Alexandrae mistakenly. The specimens at the nursery had broad leaflets just like those and the green rings leading up the overly slender trunk as well. 

What do you guys think? I’m going to see if I can get back there this week (annoyingly they’re closed on Sundays... I’ll never understand why so many nurseries are closed on what would be such a busy day for them) and see if I can get a pick for you all to confirm for me. But in the meantime, what are your thoughts? 

Edited September 13, 2020 by chad2468emr

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, chad2468emr said:

I went to Lake Underhill nursery in Orlando yesterday and imagine my surprise and delight when across the nursery I see a sign for 8+ foot “Alexander Palms” for just $50! They were also specifically labeled as A. Alexandrae. 

That being said, when I got close, I became confused. The main reason I love Archontophoenix species so much is because (despite the occasional foliage loss due to a freeze) they can actually do pretty well in ground in this area and they have a much more tropical look than the dreaded Christmas Palm. I really don’t like Christmas palms at all because they always look “ratty” to me, they’re over used, and their trunks are too slender. Archontophoenix species tend to have much thicker trunks paired with more rigid and elegant looking leaves with thinner leaflets. Or at least so I think?...

I wish I grabbed a picture, but some quick googling has led me to believe the nursery was confusing P. Elegans with A. Alexandrae. It looks like some folks consider P. Elegans “Alexander Palms” instead of A. Alexandrae. The following picture looks exactly like what I was seeing at the nursery, which made me nervous because I’ve admittedly never been able to see a large Archontophoenix species in-person, and these looked a heck of a lot like Christmas palms which (have I mentioned) I can’t stand, and I’m currently growing a whole plethora of Archonto species up from seedlings right now. 

The site I got that from cites P. Elegans as a “Alexander palm” so I’m hoping the nursery just received “Alexander palms” without a true species name assigned and then labeled them as A. Alexandrae mistakenly. The specimens at the nursery had broad leaflets just like those and the green rings leading up the overly slender trunk as well. 

What do you guys think? I’m going to see if I can get back there this week (annoyingly they’re closed on Sundays... I’ll never understand why so many nurseries are closed on what would be such a busy day for them) and see if I can get a pick for you all to confirm for me. But in the meantime, what are your thoughts? 

Look like P. elegans.. Blunted / "bitten off " leaf tips are a pretty obvious give away..  This is one ( of many ) reasons never to go by a common name since, as you can see, 2 completely different plants can have the same common name.. Some plants can have upwards of 10 completely different species -from very different Genus/ families- that are given the same common name

P. elegans is a great palm.. One of my personal favs, but will never look like a true Alexander.. The Archontophoenix kind anyway..  Depending on where you are in Central Fl. should be numerous of places to see larger/ more mature Archontophoenix Alexandrae. Kopsick Palmatium , over in St. Pete has at least one, plus a nice looking cross between A. alex. and A. cunninghamiana, and some other larger Archontophoenix species.

[PalmatierMeg]

Agree - P. elegans. All the king palm spp have "pointed" tips to their pinnae. Ptychosperma,  Adonidia & Veitchia have "jagged", i.e., "praemorse", ends on their pinnae.

[chad2468emr]

Good note regarding the leaflet ends! Once they’re open again I’ll swing by and see if I can confirm my suspicions. Thanks for the help!

[Bazza]

On 9/13/2020 at 10:31 AM, chad2468emr said:

I went to Lake Underhill nursery in Orlando yesterday and imagine my surprise and delight when across the nursery I see a sign for 8+ foot “Alexander Palms” for just $50! They were also specifically labeled as A. Alexandrae. 

That being said, when I got close, I became confused. The main reason I love Archontophoenix species so much is because (despite the occasional foliage loss due to a freeze) they can actually do pretty well in ground in this area and they have a much more tropical look than the dreaded Christmas Palm. I really don’t like Christmas palms at all because they always look “ratty” to me, they’re over used, and their trunks are too slender. Archontophoenix species tend to have much thicker trunks paired with more rigid and elegant looking leaves with thinner leaflets. Or at least so I think?...

I wish I grabbed a picture, but some quick googling has led me to believe the nursery was confusing P. Elegans with A. Alexandrae. It looks like some folks consider P. Elegans “Alexander Palms” instead of A. Alexandrae. The following picture looks exactly like what I was seeing at the nursery, which made me nervous because I’ve admittedly never been able to see a large Archontophoenix species in-person, and these looked a heck of a lot like Christmas palms which (have I mentioned) I can’t stand, and I’m currently growing a whole plethora of Archonto species up from seedlings right now. 

The site I got that from cites P. Elegans as a “Alexander palm” so I’m hoping the nursery just received “Alexander palms” without a true species name assigned and then labeled them as A. Alexandrae mistakenly. The specimens at the nursery had broad leaflets just like those and the green rings leading up the overly slender trunk as well. 

What do you guys think? I’m going to see if I can get back there this week (annoyingly they’re closed on Sundays... I’ll never understand why so many nurseries are closed on what would be such a busy day for them) and see if I can get a pick for you all to confirm for me. But in the meantime, what are your thoughts? 

 

Yo Chad....you have good taste, my man!

Have to agree on the hardiness of the Archontophoenix alexandrae. I have had one here in my front yard that went through the three dreaded freeze years of '08-'10 and it is still here and doing great.

I've since added more and selected them over Foxtails because of their reduced flower/fruit stalk, which I find less offensive than the Foxtail.

As to the confusion over common names - frustrating and will probably never change for the better.

Ptychosperma elegans commonly referred and/or labeled as King Alexander, Alexander, and/or King, but you hardly ever hear them called Solitaire, which is what they really are.

An 8 footer at $50 though doesn't sound too bad if it's at least in a 7 gal. pot. Regardless of whether an Alexander or Solitaire. But the Solitaires, as you said, are not as cold hardy.

I don't mind the Adonidias (Christmas) palms that much. They have their place in the landscape. Just not all that hardy, unless VERY established.

For me, other than seeing in person, the best way to confirm a species is by sending a photo through email or text. What amazes me is how hard even that task can be sometimes.

Here's a pic of my largest Alexander...the one I mentioned that went through the hard freezes. Ironically you can see the foliage of a Ptychosperma elegans below it, from one I have in a pot in that section of the yard.

Good luck!

Baz

 

[Robert D. Young]

On 9/13/2020 at 10:31 AM, chad2468emr said:

I went to Lake Underhill nursery in Orlando yesterday and imagine my surprise and delight when across the nursery I see a sign for 8+ foot “Alexander Palms” for just $50! They were also specifically labeled as A. Alexandrae. 

That being said, when I got close, I became confused. The main reason I love Archontophoenix species so much is because (despite the occasional foliage loss due to a freeze) they can actually do pretty well in ground in this area and they have a much more tropical look than the dreaded Christmas Palm. I really don’t like Christmas palms at all because they always look “ratty” to me, they’re over used, and their trunks are too slender. Archontophoenix species tend to have much thicker trunks paired with more rigid and elegant looking leaves with thinner leaflets. Or at least so I think?...

I wish I grabbed a picture, but some quick googling has led me to believe the nursery was confusing P. Elegans with A. Alexandrae. It looks like some folks consider P. Elegans “Alexander Palms” instead of A. Alexandrae. The following picture looks exactly like what I was seeing at the nursery, which made me nervous because I’ve admittedly never been able to see a large Archontophoenix species in-person, and these looked a heck of a lot like Christmas palms which (have I mentioned) I can’t stand, and I’m currently growing a whole plethora of Archonto species up from seedlings right now. 

The site I got that from cites P. Elegans as a “Alexander palm” so I’m hoping the nursery just received “Alexander palms” without a true species name assigned and then labeled them as A. Alexandrae mistakenly. The specimens at the nursery had broad leaflets just like those and the green rings leading up the overly slender trunk as well. 

What do you guys think? I’m going to see if I can get back there this week (annoyingly they’re closed on Sundays... I’ll never understand why so many nurseries are closed on what would be such a busy day for them) and see if I can get a pick for you all to confirm for me. But in the meantime, what are your thoughts? 

I hate to spoil your preconceived notion, but the arcontophoenix alexandrae palm is actually called "Alexandra" palm.

[sonoranfans]

Trade names and scientific names are not the same.  Trade names are legacy names by commercial retailers who likely dont even know the scientific name.  A. Alexandre is a specific scientific name that is well defined to botanists.  Any nursery that calls palms by their trade names is likely buying from a catalog of commonly used palms that are often treated as annuals.  Like C. Lutecens is often call the "areca palm" and is sold in zone 8 or colder though it will not survive, its an annual up there.  WIth thousands of species of palms this use of trade names makes things very confusing for a serious hobbyist.  I once had a P Elegans triple 20 years ago, and yes I thought as you did it was A alexandre, it was a big box store palm  that I grew indoors in arizona,  It was a great indoor palm not needing direct sunlight to be happy.  When I see a nursery that has an "alexander palm its likely the P Elegans but even that is guaranteed.  I have the same "preconceived notions" that scientific names are necessary to distinguish palms, but I also know not to trust nurseries who carry palms labelled as "alexander palm".  The name "king palm" is also confusing as its commonly used for A cunninghamiana even more commonly carried by the jack of all trades nurseries than A Alexandre.  Not much good to me if they arent even sure what they have or what its cultural needs are.  For serious hobbyists mistaking one king for another is a potential problem as A. alexandre likes full sun and A. cunninghamiana does not.  I have a 30" triple A. alexandre that has been burned in long 30F cold polar vortex in 2017(?) and stripped down by two hurricanes since it was planted in 2010 as a 1 gallon.  It is a very fast recovering palm that never left a doubt it was coming back, even when the crown was destroyed 2x.  It has been a tough, resilient palm for me planted among a small forest of other palms (that are a bit shorter).   It is very fast grower from a seedling, worth a try in 9B in a somewhat protected area.  The P ELegans is not going to be as weather tough IMO, I cant think of any nearby survivors outdoors here.

[Merlyn]

If they have 8' tall P. Elegans for $50 I might need to stop by and grab one!    I've tried some other Ptychosperma with not great success on cold hardiness.  Macarthurii and Schefferi both burnt to the ground in the upper 20s with frost.  I had 2 clusters of each species, one of each survived and resprouted.  I read that Elegans, Salomonense and "Rakkii" might be cold tolerant into the 20s if protected from frost.  Anyone have experience?

[kinzyjr]

13 hours ago, Merlyn said:

If they have 8' tall P. Elegans for $50 I might need to stop by and grab one!    I've tried some other Ptychosperma with not great success on cold hardiness.  Macarthurii and Schefferi both burnt to the ground in the upper 20s with frost.  I had 2 clusters of each species, one of each survived and resprouted.  I read that Elegans, Salomonense and "Rakkii" might be cold tolerant into the 20s if protected from frost.  Anyone have experience?

Excerpt from Florida Christmas Freeze 2022:

==========================================================================================================

Ptychosperma elegans (No Damage) [0] - the Ponytail Palm behind it had more yellow leaves than it did... go figure.

==========================================================================================================

Additional Information: This palm has been around since 2015, so it has seen at least upper 20s in 2018.  That said, this is an extremely artificial microclimate for Florida; on a steep hill in the middle of the city next to a solid concrete parking garage with other large buildings in all directions and small lakes in close proximity on both sides.

[peachy]

Okay, as a person who lives where most of the aforementioned palms originate let me clear up a few minor points.  A. cunninghamia and A. alexandrae look the same apart from that one of them has green undersides on the leaves and the other is more of a silver green.  The cunninghamia (or Bangalow Palm as it is called here) is slightly cold hardier,  also gets longer leaves when grown. Alexandrae (called Alexander or just plain Alex here) will sometimes be wider at the base of the trunk than the rest of it. There has been some debate Whether the wider base ones are a different type of Alexander.  Both Bangalows and Alexanders come from rainforest areas, but do fine in full sun. The Alex is slightly more drought tolerant after planting.  Adonida merrillii or Christmas palm are much smaller, very slow growing and though they survive the cold, even in a relatively mild winter they get yellow patches and look quite secondhand until they are fully grown. Ptychosperma elegans, can tolerate short periods of cold without damage but prolonged winter cold will probably kill them. They are much smaller than the Archontophoenix,  have a narrow trunk, can't handle much sun but are very fast growing They also have ragged tips on the leaflets.

Hope this is a bit of help.

Peachy