cidp Any tips for growing CIDP from seed in zone 8b/9a?

[Teegurr 392]

Hi, new member here. I just received these Canary Island date palm seeds from treeseeds.com. I wonder how long I should keep them indoors and when to plant outside. Also, what soil would be good for them? I appreciate the help! 

[kinzyjr 4,537]

@Teegurr Welcome to the forums!  CIDP are pretty forgiving as far as soil goes.  Anything that drains well is good. If you are in a marginal climate, you probably want to grow them in a pot until they start trunking.  One thing to note is that you will need a relatively deep pot.  A 2 leaf seedling can fill a 3-liter soda bottle full of roots.

[Fusca 2,456]

2 hours ago, Teegurr said:

Hi, new member here.

Another welcome!    Jeremy's right with his advice.  Bottom heat helps with germination, but with the heat we have here lately you shouldn't have any problem germinating them outside in a pot.  I germinate some of my palm seeds in barely moist orchid moss in a ziplock baggie inside the house on a heat mat or satellite TV box.  An overnight soak in water prior to sowing helps also.  CIDP have always been one of my favorite palms growing up and they'll do fine planted outside in 8b/9a College Station.  Seeds are easy to germinate also.  Best of luck with them and let us know how it goes.

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

In College Station, Texas 5 gallon nursery trade pot size should be OK planted out in springtime. But anything below 20F will cause burn, and about 17F they defoliate. . You can get to a fat trunked canary from seed in maybe 6/7 years.

Plant the seed in a 1 gallon or tall "tree pot" ( they do have a long tap root), then move up to a 5 gallon once it goes pinnate, then they only need about another season in a 5 gallon before putting in the ground. Then in about 3 years they will take off. Once you get them to trunking size they are quite hardy, but keeping them in a pot isn't necessary here. They germinate fast if planted just below the soil now. Leave them outside in winter except in a freeze. They can get get spear pull easily young, ( cool cold wet) which in their first year will kill them but probably not after that.

I have lots of pots available.

As far as potting soil, ignore palm mix or well draining mix, its Texas you want it to hold water in summer. Go to the Producers in Bryan and get the best potting mix with vermiculite in it.

I dont know about your soil, some are lucky to have sandy soil. The better you take care of them the better they do, mine have several feet of trunk, while I planted one for a neighbor .1 mile away who moved and its new owners have never cared for it and its sad and small.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Teegurr 392]

16 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

In College Station, Texas 5 gallon nursery trade pot size should be OK planted out in springtime. But anything below 20F will cause burn, and about 17F they defoliate. . You can get to a fat trunked canary from seed in maybe 6/7 years.

Plant the seed in a 1 gallon or tall "tree pot" ( they do have a long tap root), then move up to a 5 gallon once it goes pinnate, then they only need about another season in a 5 gallon before putting in the ground. Then in about 3 years they will take off. Once you get them to trunking size they are quite hardy, but keeping them in a pot isn't necessary here. They germinate fast if planted just below the soil now. Leave them outside in winter except in a freeze. They can get get spear pull easily young, ( cool cold wet) which in their first year will kill them but probably not after that.

I have lots of pots available.

As far as potting soil, ignore palm mix or well draining mix, its Texas you want it to hold water in summer. Go to the Producers in Bryan and get the best potting mix with vermiculite in it.

I dont know about your soil, some are lucky to have sandy soil. The better you take care of them the better they do, mine have several feet of trunk, while I planted one for a neighbor .1 mile away who moved and its new owners have never cared for it and its sad and small.

Thank you for the indispensable information! Cool to see I'm not the only one from College Station here. Thanks for the information about leaving them inside in the winter, I usually head out of town for a few weeks in the winter, so I'm not sure how long they can go without water. 

I might be interested in some pots for them, right now I have 4 seeds in each pot (maybe that's not a good idea). One pot is a gallon and the other is about 2/3 that. So, I don't have a 5 gallon pot yet. 

Good to know about the mix. I've never heard of the producers in Bryan, but I will check it out. I usually go to the Farm Patch. 

My soil is not sandy unfortunately, it's a clay dark loam. 

 

 

[Teegurr 392]

23 hours ago, Fusca said:

Another welcome!    Jeremy's right with his advice.  Bottom heat helps with germination, but with the heat we have here lately you shouldn't have any problem germinating them outside in a pot.  I germinate some of my palm seeds in barely moist orchid moss in a ziplock baggie inside the house on a heat mat or satellite TV box.  An overnight soak in water prior to sowing helps also.  CIDP have always been one of my favorite palms growing up and they'll do fine planted outside in 8b/9a College Station.  Seeds are easy to germinate also.  Best of luck with them and let us know how it goes.

Thank you! I have been on this forum for a few months, and it's really interesting. Cool, I think I will move the pots outside until maybe late October.  I started these seeds without soaking, but I have a lot more, and I will try that. CIDP is probably my favorite palm that can grow here.  I will let you know how it's going, this is exciting because I'm not sure I've seen another CIDP in College Station before.

Edited September 6, 2020 by Teegurr

[Teegurr 392]

On 9/4/2020 at 7:20 PM, kinzyjr said:

@Teegurr Welcome to the forums!  CIDP are pretty forgiving as far as soil goes.  Anything that drains well is good. If you are in a marginal climate, you probably want to grow them in a pot until they start trunking.  One thing to note is that you will need a relatively deep pot.  A 2 leaf seedling can fill a 3-liter soda bottle full of roots.

Thank you! I have them in Miracle Gro potting mix right now. I don't have any pots that deep right now, I'd better get some. 

[Fusca 2,456]

23 minutes ago, Teegurr said:

 I will let you know how it's going, this is exciting because I'm not sure I've seen another CIDP in College Station before.

I can't recall seeing one there either but I have seen a couple growing in Brenham when I lived there 4 years ago.

[Teegurr 392]

24 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I can't recall seeing one there either but I have seen a couple growing in Brenham when I lived there 4 years ago.

I have a neighbor who I think is growing dates or pygmy dates, but I'm not sure. 

EDIT: I think they might be butias actually

Edited September 6, 2020 by Teegurr

[Palmlover. 8]

Hello!I would recommend you keep it indoors for about six months

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

21 hours ago, Fusca said:

I can't recall seeing one there either but I have seen a couple growing in Brenham when I lived there 4 years ago.

What do you call these Growing in Pebble Creek in College Station? I have seen them grow for many years, and they were not planted as large specimens. I thought I’d add my 2 cents worth since I have lived here for 20 years. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

Also mine have seeds on them so they were pollinated. Just yesterday I picked one up and stuck in a pot.  Several years ago I sold several seedling sprouted under mine that I sold to a landscaper. My big queen palm also has fresh seeds this year falling to ground. They are more tender than Canaries. The oldest canary I have seen in my area was one in Taylor Texas that does appear to have survived the 80s. I do not know of any pre 1990 canaries here, but they could have been killed by diseases that are ravaging through the oldest ones in Houston Galveston Areas. It’s very sad to see 50- 100 year old looking canaries bite the dust so quick. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

21 hours ago, Teegurr said:

I have a neighbor who I think is growing dates or pygmy dates, but I'm not sure. 

EDIT: I think they might be butias actually

Butias do not do well here because of the soil I Think. Same goes for Trachycarpus. There are a few around however. Mine all died eventually due to disease. Even several of my Butia hybrids died due to disease. I have a couple that are in raised beds that are alive. But those that I planted into native soil died eventually. If you live just east of us or south of us that have neutral or acidic soil, like Montgomery County, you can grow almost anything that is cold hardy.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Fusca 2,456]

1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

What do you call these Growing in Pebble Creek in College Station? I have seen them grow for many years, and they were not planted as large specimens. I thought I’d add my 2 cents worth since I have lived here for 20 years. 

Nice Ryan!  Haven't been by here - now I know where to go next time I'm up that way.  Here and your garden!

[ahosey01 677]

On 9/4/2020 at 5:20 PM, kinzyjr said:

@Teegurr Welcome to the forums!  CIDP are pretty forgiving as far as soil goes.  Anything that drains well is good. If you are in a marginal climate, you probably want to grow them in a pot until they start trunking.  One thing to note is that you will need a relatively deep pot.  A 2 leaf seedling can fill a 3-liter soda bottle full of roots.

Honestly I’d argue that they’re so forgiving that if you have hot summers and you don’t get profuse winter rain, they don’t even need soil that drains all that well either.  Mine has been opening fronds like every 8 days and is planted straight into clay on top of caliche.

[UK_Palms 1,017]

Those CIDP's and Robusta's in the background are certainly impressive, but college Station has a record low of -3F... 

You'll probably get lows of 5-10F every 20 years or so, maybe every 10-15 years even, in which case they'd be toast. Especially the Robusta's.

What's the coldest temperature you have personally experienced there? And when was the last time you went down to just 10F? I bet they do great most winters and years, but then that one really cold polar vortex makes it down to you one winter, on a night with clear skies, and then the 5F low will zap them. I doubt the palms in that picture have experienced that yet.

Similar problem here, inland at 51N for me in terms of keeping CIDP's and Washies long term, although I have never seen anything colder than 13-14F here. All time lowest temp for my area stands at 8F. Robusta's would be totally smoked at 20F and dead at 15F. CIDP's defoliated at 15F and dead at 10F. And that's the hardier, tougher specimens. 

[UK_Palms 1,017]

11 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Honestly I’d argue that they’re so forgiving that if you have hot summers and you don’t get profuse winter rain, they don’t even need soil that drains all that well either.  Mine has been opening fronds like every 8 days and is planted straight into clay on top of caliche.

Opening fronds every 8 days!  

I'm lucky to get one new frond every 20 days here, even in mid-summer. Right now it's one new frond every 30 days I would say. Although my biggest one is still only 6 years from seed and still containerised, plus I'm obviously not as warm or sunny as you. But one new frond every 8 days is crazy growth for a CIDP! I bet you're heavily irrigating that thing in AZ to get growth like that...

[ahosey01 677]

8 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Opening fronds every 8 days!  

I'm lucky to get one new frond every 20 days here, even in mid-summer. Right now it's one new frond every 30 days I would say. Although my biggest one is still only 6 years from seed and still containerised, plus I'm obviously not as warm or sunny as you. But one new frond every 8 days is crazy growth for a CIDP! I bet you're heavily irrigating that thing in AZ to get growth like that...

Yeah dude... during the worst of the heat (115-117) it was like 25 gallons every other day.  I flood irrigate rather than drip.  Since it’s cooled down to 106-109 I’m watering every three to four.  I think this thing is going to be massive... fastest growing of all my palms by far.  It’s absurd.

Edited September 7, 2020 by ahosey01

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

31 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Those CIDP's and Robusta's in the background are certainly impressive, but college Station has a record low of -3F... 

You'll probably get lows of 5-10F every 20 years or so, maybe every 10-15 years even, in which case they'd be toast. Especially the Robusta's.

What's the coldest temperature you have personally experienced there? And when was the last time you went down to just 10F? I bet they do great most winters and years, but then that one really cold polar vortex makes it down to you one winter, on a night with clear skies, and then the 5F low will zap them. I doubt the palms in that picture have experienced that yet.

Similar problem here, inland at 51N for me in terms of keeping CIDP's and Washies long term, although I have never seen anything colder than 13-14F here. All time lowest temp for my area stands at 8F. Robusta's would be totally smoked at 20F and dead at 15F. CIDP's defoliated at 15F and dead at 10F. And that's the hardier, tougher specimens. 

I can tell you every low we have had, I am a meteorologist and came to College Station for my degree. The records are somewhat misleading. As that -3 was not actually in the town, and the airport did not exist. In fact you cannot even compare the 1980s low temperatures because Bryan College Station has had record population growth.

The lowest those canaries have experienced was about 14 F in 2018. You have to go all the way back to 1989 to get a low below 10. At that time the city and town were 1/2 the population it is now. Canaries have survived below 10 degrees in Texas. We have short cold spells and rapid warmth and extreme short winters.  Dec 15 through about Feb 15 is our winter, all other months palms will grow pretty well. Its very common for it go from 80F to 20F then Back to 70F all in the span of 3 days. I have stood next to my Filifera hybrids and feel the heat radiating from the thick trunk on cold nights. Those that want to try growing more tropical plants in Houston, will have the same weather but about 5 degrees warmer. However, zone 10 palms in a zone 9 are much less forgiving than a very healthy palm like a Canary or a Filifera.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Swolte 787]

Welcome Teegurr, looks like we have quite the representation from College Station! The more I become attuned to palms, the more CIPDs I see in College Station (I already know of 4 locations out of the top of my head with fairly beefy ones though not as tall as the one Collector-palms showed!). Hope you have a large enough yard to house a monster like that!  I am currently growing quite the variety of palms but I only recently became obsessed so we'll see what works or not in the long run (if half survives I am happy! :p)

[UK_Palms 1,017]

17 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Yeah dude... during the worst of the heat (115-117) it was like 25 gallons every other day.  I flood irrigate rather than drip.  Since it’s cooled down to 106-109 I’m watering every three to four.  I think this thing is going to be massive... fastest growing of all my palms by far.  It’s absurd.

"Since it's cooled down to 106-109"... 

Well, they clearly thrive with the combination of extreme heat and excess water. I still can't get over 1 new frond every 8 days! Nothing is quicker growing than my fastest growing Trachycarpus Fortunei here. My biggest CIDP doesn't even come close. Although that Trachy is planted in the ground, whereas the CIDP is in a large container for now. CIDP's aren't particularly fast growers here, compared to Fortunei at least.

They're not as drought tolerant as Fortunei either in my experience. I have to heavily irrigate my CIDP's at 51N during summer or the lower fronds quickly brown off. The Trachy's don't really have that issue, even the bigger ones in pots. CIDP's seem to really guzzle water down in summer, the same with Theophrasti. The Trachy's I can actually get away with underwatering, whereas the CIDP's will quickly look like crap and brown off if I don't heavily water from mid May - early September. I didn't realise they had that high water requirements during the growing season.

[Teegurr 392]

2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Butias do not do well here because of the soil I Think. Same goes for Trachycarpus. There are a few around however. Mine all died eventually due to disease. Even several of my Butia hybrids died due to disease. I have a couple that are in raised beds that are alive. But those that I planted into native soil died eventually. If you live just east of us or south of us that have neutral or acidic soil, like Montgomery County, you can grow almost anything that is cold hardy.

Looking at them again I think they are dactyliferas.

[Teegurr 392]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Nice Ryan!  Haven't been by here - now I know where to go next time I'm up that way.  Here and your garden!

 

3 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

What do you call these Growing in Pebble Creek in College Station? I have seen them grow for many years, and they were not planted as large specimens. I thought I’d add my 2 cents worth since I have lived here for 20 years. 

Wow, those are really nice healthy specimens. I wonder why people don't plant more. Maybe in the future it will be a more popular palm in the area.

[UK_Palms 1,017]

26 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I can tell you every low we have had, I am a meteorologist and came to College Station for my degree. The records are somewhat misleading. As that -3 was not actually in the town, and the airport did not exist. In fact you cannot even compare the 1980s low temperatures because Bryan College Station has had record population growth.

The lowest those canaries have experienced was about 14 F in 2018. You have to go all the way back to 1989 to get a low below 10. At that time the city and town were 1/2 the population it is now. Canaries have survived below 10 degrees in Texas. We have short cold spells and rapid warmth and extreme short winters.  Dec 15 through about Feb 15 is our winter, all other months palms will grow pretty well. Its very common for it go from 80F to 20F then Back to 70F all in the span of 3 days. I have stood next to my Filifera hybrids and feel the heat radiating from the thick trunk on cold nights.

Sorry, I was referring to the temperature thresholds of CIDP's in my climate which will defoliate at 15F and are dead at 10F (mature specimens). Obviously I recognise that in your climate, where winter day temperatures rebound greater, sunlight intensity is stronger and warm conditions resume sooner, you will get away with a few more degrees of protection. It will still vary between individual specimens though as some are just more cold hardy than others. 

Any idea what the lowest temperature is that CIDP's have survived in Texas and come back okay? Even there I would expect them to completely defoliate at 10F and be dead at 5F. Some will probably bite the dust a few degrees above that. If you're in the middle of town, surrounded by residential areas and buildings, you should be okay. I would be a bit cautious though if you are out in the sticks a bit, on the outskirts of town, or out in the open in an exposed spot. Especially if you plan on planting them in a large yard with no natural barriers or overhead protection. Temperatures will probably be at least 5F colder under such circumstances, compared to temperatures in town.

If those Canaries took 14F as recently as 2018, I wouldn't be shocked if they do see a 5F low within the next decade, when a proper polar vortex does push through. You said yourself in one of your previous posts that you haven't really seen any large CIDP's around (apart from the ones pictured). Even still, they may survive a low of 5-10F. But those Robusta's and the hybrid Filibusta's may be in for a rude awakening. Did your Filibusta's handle the 14F okay, or incur damage? Mine vary massively between individual specimens. All came from the same seed batch, but some show damage at 18-20F whereas others don't show damage until below 15F. Some handle wet-cold a lot better than others too. I suppose it depends on whether it is a Robusta dominant specimen or a Filifera dominant specimen. Or a 50:50 equal mix. 

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

1 hour ago, Teegurr said:

 

Wow, those are really nice healthy specimens. I wonder why people don't plant more. Maybe in the future it will be a more popular palm in the area.

They are not common here because there are no private nurseries and the big box stores do not carry them. street view from 2012

Edited September 7, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms 1,277]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

Sorry, I was referring to the temperature thresholds of CIDP's in my climate which will defoliate at 15F and are dead at 10F (mature specimens). Obviously I recognise that in your climate, where winter day temperatures rebound greater, sunlight intensity is stronger and warm conditions resume sooner, you will get away with a few more degrees of protection. It will still vary between individual specimens though as some are just more cold hardy than others. 

Any idea what the lowest temperature is that CIDP's have survived in Texas and come back okay? Even there I would expect them to completely defoliate at 10F and be dead at 5F. Some will probably bite the dust a few degrees above that. If you're in the middle of town, surrounded by residential areas and buildings, you should be okay. I would be a bit cautious though if you are out in the sticks a bit, on the outskirts of town, or out in the open in an exposed spot. Especially if you plan on planting them in a large yard with no natural barriers or overhead protection. Temperatures will probably be at least 5F colder under such circumstances, compared to temperatures in town.

If those Canaries took 14F as recently as 2018, I wouldn't be shocked if they do see a 5F low within the next decade, when a proper polar vortex does push through. You said yourself in one of your previous posts that you haven't really seen any large CIDP's around (apart from the ones pictured). Even still, they may survive a low of 5-10F. But those Robusta's and the hybrid Filibusta's may be in for a rude awakening. Did your Filibusta's handle the 14F okay, or incur damage? Mine vary massively between individual specimens. All came from the same seed batch, but some show damage at 18-20F whereas others don't show damage until below 15F. Some handle wet-cold a lot better than others too. I suppose it depends on whether it is a Robusta dominant specimen or a Filifera dominant specimen. Or a 50:50 equal mix. 

In Texas, the winter coming around the corner could be the last for Washintonia Robusta hybrids. The average life span between killer freezes is 20 years locally. We are currently up to 30 years. Which is a testament probably to the location of the weather station. A more reliable location is Galveston to see the life span of killing freezes in southeast Texas, as they are advective cold events with strong winds that pushes all the way deep into the Gulf of Mexico. By deduction, Take 10 degrees from Galveston temperatures at night and you are likely to get our temperature during those events, and Houston is 5 degrees colder than Galveston.

CIDP and Washintonias have survived 0 in el paso, just a few winters ago, and they survived the worst winters for San Antonio and Houston (5-10F). What is killing them more common is diseases. 

I cant count how many Washingtonia I have. But the most tender burn at 20F, and the most Hardy ones did not significantly burn at my lowest low of 14.5. The oldest leaves with potassium deficiency did look bad. Hence why I think the palm has to be very healthy to survive the cold. My FIlifera oldest leaves can just look bad after cool weather and not even cold winters. I do not quite live in the right part of the state for pure Filifera. If your in Dallas Austin or San Antonio, Plant Filifera, in Houston area and east plant they hybrids. 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Collectorpalms

[Teegurr 392]

A seed has sprouted.

[kinzyjr 4,537]

1 hour ago, Teegurr said:

A seed has sprouted.

Nice work!

[Teegurr 392]

13 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Nice work!

Many thanks. It took 48 ish days. I got a weed strangely that I was excited about for some reason. There is another sprout in a different pot. The sprouts only sprouted on the edge of the pots oddly. They will be tricky to transplant into new pots.

[climate change virginia 165]

If you want to save lots of money germinate them in a paper towel and transplant into a deep pot or start them off in a vitamin container with holes in the bottom or milk cartons(but put them in real pots once you see decomposing) or put them in water jugs I got some of my pot from my neighbors who I planted a tree with the pots were left over. So I asked for them and sure enough my plants are in them now. Use potting soil with lots of nutrients and well draining. Best luck.

[climate change virginia 165]

On 9/7/2020 at 12:55 AM, Collectorpalms said:

In Texas, the winter coming around the corner could be the last for Washintonia Robusta hybrids. The average life span between killer freezes is 20 years locally. We are currently up to 30 years. Which is a testament probably to the location of the weather station. A more reliable location is Galveston to see the life span of killing freezes in southeast Texas, as they are advective cold events with strong winds that pushes all the way deep into the Gulf of Mexico. By deduction, Take 10 degrees from Galveston temperatures at night and you are likely to get our temperature during those events, and Houston is 5 degrees colder than Galveston.

CIDP and Washintonias have survived 0 in el paso, just a few winters ago, and they survived the worst winters for San Antonio and Houston (5-10F). What is killing them more common is diseases. 

I cant count how many Washingtonia I have. But the most tender burn at 20F, and the most Hardy ones did not significantly burn at my lowest low of 14.5. The oldest leaves with potassium deficiency did look bad. Hence why I think the palm has to be very healthy to survive the cold. My FIlifera oldest leaves can just look bad after cool weather and not even cold winters. I do not quite live in the right part of the state for pure Filifera. If your in Dallas Austin or San Antonio, Plant Filifera, in Houston area and east plant they hybrids. 

 

The only reason they can survive that is because the humidity is low.

[kinzyjr 4,537]

8 hours ago, Teegurr said:

Many thanks. It took 48 ish days. I got a weed strangely that I was excited about for some reason. There is another sprout in a different pot. The sprouts only sprouted on the edge of the pots oddly. They will be tricky to transplant into new pots.

If you want them to be easy to transplant into new pots, get them now before they fill the cup full of roots.  

They won't miss a beat.

[Teegurr 392]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

If you want them to be easy to transplant into new pots, get them now before they fill the cup full of roots.  

They won't miss a beat.

Gotcha. I will!

[climate change virginia 165]

I made that mistake and the roots got tangled in the communal pot