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Largest Zone-Pushed Bismarckia

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Jeff985
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

That would put you almost to Galveston Bay and in a solid zone 9. Are the Date Palms still on NASA Parkway?

2 blocks from Galveston bay. Upper zone 9-lower zone 10. Average annual low would be right around 30. January 2018 bottomed out at 22.  Dates on NASA are still there however they’re dying one by one due to lethal bronzing. Several have already been removed. 

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Keys6505
On 9/14/2020 at 7:07 AM, Collectorpalms said:

Thanks. If anyone can get the upc or item number I can go to brickseek.com and find them. I noticed that the mules that Lowe’s had this spring sold. Our Lowe’s had a great deal on miss-labeled Trachycarpus fortunia that were wagys but they sold too.

Sorry, no upc, but League City Lowes had some smaller 6.5 gal ($59 sku# 348646) and larger 14gal ($105 sku# 467848) Bizzys as of yesterday.  The Lowes app says $105 for the larger but I swear I remember them being $89.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
46 minutes ago, Keys6505 said:

Sorry, no upc, but League City Lowes had some smaller 6.5 gal ($59 sku# 348646) and larger 14gal ($105 sku# 467848) Bizzys as of yesterday.  The Lowes app says $105 for the larger but I swear I remember them being $89.

Around this time Lowes and HD will start to put sales on what's left of there palm selection. So your prolly right !

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Collectorpalms

Thanks, I had someone pick 2 up for me. I am too far away from that part of Houston to catch them on clearance.

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Collectorpalms

HI again, At what temperature do they start to burn? For a queen its around 23, a A Washy robusta or Canary for me its 17-19.

I want to be prepared since I have forgotten.

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sonoranfans

 

On 8/24/2020 at 11:52 PM, Meangreen94z said:

There are a lot of them in South Houston that survived 18-20*F in January 2018. Probably the one with the fullest spread of fronds is up against a Lowe’s in Clear Lake(South Houston).

31F806E4-9473-4BEB-8FD6-9D2F66D0A36E.jpeg

This palm, right up against a building never saw 18-20F.  Near buildings(especially multi story brick) is going to add 5 degrees to any event advective or ratiational.  Its like a hot rock near your fet when camping, a passive heater.  It is the best looking palm that "saw 18-20F) that nver saw it though.   Up against a building with concrete sidewalk all around is NOT going to see the same temperatures as in someones yard in hw open away from masonry.  I am unconvinced on the 18-20 advective event survival of this palm.

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sonoranfans
5 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

HI again, At what temperature do they start to burn? For a queen its around 23, a A Washy robusta or Canary for me its 17-19.

I want to be prepared since I have forgotten.

Its both temp and length of time since the temp of the palm bud is what matters, it is what kills the palm not the temp of the air.  at 25F they will burn if exposed for a few hours.  Its obvious that the less full crown palms in this thread were all burned and recovering for a few years.  The one up against the lowes was warmed by the store who knows how low it got, certainly not 20F.

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Jeff985
58 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

 

This palm, right up against a building never saw 18-20F.  Near buildings(especially multi story brick) is going to add 5 degrees to any event advective or ratiational.  Its like a hot rock near your fet when camping, a passive heater.  It is the best looking palm that "saw 18-20F) that nver saw it though.   Up against a building with concrete sidewalk all around is NOT going to see the same temperatures as in someones yard in hw open away from masonry.  I am unconvinced on the 18-20 advective event survival of this palm.

These are in Rosenberg, TX. West of Houston, removed from the city. It’s one of the colder spots in the area. These would have likely seen 17-18 degrees. Surround by dirt and vegetation. One of them does have some overhead protection from a live oak. These pictures were taken a year ago, so about 1.5 years after the freeze. 

E6092A1B-485A-4837-A8C6-B58DDA60E1AC.jpeg

BAD00E6B-B997-4E2D-8337-FC9B73860D5F.jpeg

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Collectorpalms

I know all about duration duration duration, and about planting up against buildings. I just wanted to know if 25F is what burns them regardless of duration.  I do not think I want to smash it up against my house. They look best with space. Thank you. Ill prepare for 25F, which means they  are less leaf hardy than queens.

However, as most in SE texas have pointed out there are several out in the open that HAVE survived just below 20 and recovered and in some cases may be more trunk hardy than queens after a certain size.

I experience below 25 about once every 5 years ( usually 23-25). but below 19 ( 17, 17, 14.5)  only 3 times in 20 years. So I will protect them if forecast is for 25 or below.

I am about 3-5 degrees warmer than the airport on winter nights (with no wind).

Edited by Collectorpalms

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necturus

Thanks Jeff for sharing pictures again. I am tired of responding to sonorafans. He can read the observations in the thread and see the palms that survived 18-20. The ones in my hood and the Katy Bismarckia are the best example - no protection whatsoever. They survived and thrived after a freeze that killed 10-20% of the mature, trunking queens in the neighborhood.

Collectorpalms, it's hard to say exactly what the burning point is. Until they get a nice trunk I'd protect whenever it hits the low 20s. 

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Xenon
3 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I am unconvinced on the 18-20 advective event survival of this palm.

I think you missed the rest of this thread, see my pic on the first page. That palm is growing completely exposed at a gas station with minimal/zero care since the mid 2000s and has seen upper teens on at least 4-5 separate occasions.  There are a few other Bismarckia in that general area that have survived those temps as well and even further west (colder) in Rosenberg like the ones also pictured in this thread. Elsewhere in the warmer parts of the Houston Area (almost never see below 25F in the last 30 years, very solid for queens and in some parts even pygmy dates and warm enough for foxtail palms to survive for 20 years etc), Bismarckia also survived the one off dip to 18-20F in 2018 that negated the heat island effect that kept those areas solidly 9b for 20+ years and generally looked better than the queens. Probably depends on the type of freeze and also overall heating, but Bismarckia has proved to be suprisingly hardy in the Houston Area in the last 15-20 years.  One thing to keep in mind is that even the cold parts of Houston often go many years without seeing below 25F and the warmest parts maybe just once in a decade or two.  Coupled with the long summers, it allows Bismarckia to regenerate between freezes. I don't think Bismarckia would do as well in a place that consistently sees low 20s every winter. 

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Collectorpalms
33 minutes ago, Xenon said:

I think you missed the rest of this thread, see my pic on the first page. That palm is growing completely exposed at a gas station with minimal/zero care since the mid 2000s and has seen upper teens on at least 4-5 separate occasions.  There are a few other Bismarckia in that general area that have survived those temps as well and even further west (colder) in Rosenberg like the ones also pictured in this thread. Elsewhere in the warmer parts of the Houston Area (almost never see below 25F in the last 30 years, very solid for queens and in some parts even pygmy dates and warm enough for foxtail palms to survive for 20 years etc), Bismarckia also survived the one off dip to 18-20F in 2018 that negated the heat island effect that kept those areas solidly 9b for 20+ years and generally looked better than the queens. Probably depends on the type of freeze and also overall heating, but Bismarckia has proved to be suprisingly hardy in the Houston Area in the last 15-20 years.  One thing to keep in mind is that even the cold parts of Houston often go many years without seeing below 25F and the warmest parts maybe just once in a decade or two.  Coupled with the long summers, it allows Bismarckia to regenerate between freezes. I don't think Bismarckia would do as well in a place that consistently sees low 20s every winter. 

Yeah, I am zone pushing by a couple degrees. But I do not live in Missouri. Palms are so common around here now, so its time to zone push a little more now that I have my hardiest palms are well established. IF I lived in Galveston, no doubt Id try Royals and Foxtails and Bismarckia would be the hardiest of the bunch.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Xenon
15 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Yeah, I am zone pushing by a couple degrees. But I do not live in Missouri. Palms are so common around here now, so its time to zone push a little more now that I have my hardiest palms are well established. IF I lived in Galveston, no doubt Id try Royals and Foxtails and Bismarckia would be the hardiest of the bunch.

Galveston is definitely the warmest spot and managed "only" 25F in 2018 but there are parts of central Houston (which I was referring to) that are almost as protected. Downtown, parts of the 610 loop near TMC, Museum District, Midtown, etc have only seen below 25F once or twice in the last 30 years. 

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Collectorpalms
11 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Galveston is definitely the warmest spot and managed "only" 25F in 2018 but there are parts of central Houston (which I was referring to) that are almost as protected. Downtown, parts of the 610 loop near TMC, Museum District, Midtown, etc have only seen below 25F once or twice in the last 30 years. 

yes, there is a little area that was 25 around Rice Village, Montrose. I looked over all the personal weather stations in 2010, 2011, and 2018. NO stations stayed above 25 in Houston or Galveston however. But In fact there are building that took the edge off the wind in Houston, that other than Moody Gardens that probably are even better than a very windy 25 island. in 2018 Exposed queens were fried in areas on Galveston due to wind and 23-24. I SAW 23-25 on Galveston Island.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Xenon
13 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

yes, there is a little area that was 25 around Rice Village, Montrose. I looked over all the personal weather stations. NO stations stayed above 25 in Houston or Galveston however. But In fact there are building that took the edge off the wind in Houston, that other than Moody Gardens that probably are even better than a very windy 25 island.

Yeah the cold 2017 winter and the finishing blow in 2018 really set back the tropical scene in the inner city which had mostly evaded the previous freezes in 2010 and 2011. Killed all the foxtails that been there since the 2000s, including this nice one in Montrose.  There are still pygmy dates within the loop and heading south/southeast of town though. Took out or froze back most of the zone 10 stuff on the island as well including many of the "Norfolk" pines and left the survivors with very asymmetrical canopies. Even the big Ficus macrophylla at Moody which went unscathed after 2010/2011 froze back to the main trunk. I don't know of any royals outside of Moody that survived but there are some foxtail palms that survived in some of the island neighborhoods.  Judging by how the Norfolk pines looked, there seems to a warm spot at Moody and another one just south of the cruise terminal in the vicinity of UTMB. Water must be deeper there?

FT1.jpg.9c3b84d4090253d25526b050617ff62a.jpg

Edited by Xenon

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Collectorpalms
5 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Yeah the cold 2017 winter and the finishing blow in 2018 really set back the tropical scene in the inner city which had mostly evaded the previous freezes in 2010 and 2011. Killed all the foxtails that been there since the 2000s, including this nice one in Montrose.  There are still pygmy dates within the loop and heading south/southeast of town though. Took out or froze back most of the zone 10 stuff on the island as well including many of the "Norfolk" pines and left the survivors with very asymmetrical canopies. Even the big Ficus macrophylla at Moody which went unscathed after 2010/2011 froze back to the main trunk. I don't know of any royals outside of Moody that survived but there are some foxtail palms that survived in some of the island neighborhoods. 

FT1.jpg.9c3b84d4090253d25526b050617ff62a.jpg

Where ?was" that Foxtail?

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Xenon
2 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Where ?was" that Foxtail?

Montrose, near St. Thomas

Edited by Xenon

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Collectorpalms
11 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Montrose 

Bummer! Id probably zone push a foxtail over a Royal. They would be easier to wrap the crownsharft in these events because they are not as tall. I think it comes down to the fact that crownshaft palms meristem are more vulnerable to temperatures. They can regrown the leaves if need be if its a once in 5-10 year event. This was from a low 25F BUT a daytime cloudy high of 32. The later is the point.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Jeff985
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

yes, there is a little area that was 25 around Rice Village, Montrose. I looked over all the personal weather stations in 2010, 2011, and 2018. NO stations stayed above 25 in Houston or Galveston however. But In fact there are building that took the edge off the wind in Houston, that other than Moody Gardens that probably are even better than a very windy 25 island. in 2018 Exposed queens were fried in areas on Galveston due to wind and 23-24. I SAW 23-25 on Galveston Island.

Where did you see 23 in Galveston? I just looked at wunderground again and couldn’t find a single station that recorded a temperature below 25. Texas City bottomed out at 23. 

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Collectorpalms
13 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

Where did you see 23 in Galveston? I just looked at wunderground again and couldn’t find a single station that recorded a temperature below 25. Texas City bottomed out at 23. 

I am basing on my memory of  watching the stations during the event. Stations that are no longer active,  I would now know how to look up, and they  cannot be independently verified. But then again, even official weather stations (ASOS) need to be calibrated more often than they are, but are not. 

However, look for the weather station that was at the sea wall, or Buoy 3202.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Jeff985
3 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I am basing on my memory of  watching the stations during the event. Stations that are no longer active,  I would now know how to look up, and they  cannot be independently verified. But then again, even official weather stations (ASOS) need to be calibrated more often than they are, but are not. 

Oh. I was able to look up historical data for weather stations in Galveston, but north of there by the bay around where I live, when you try to look up historical data it redirects to Ellington airfield, so I have to go by memory for those areas. But I remember Texas City was 23. My neighborhood was 22. I think La Porte was 21 and Baytown was 20. Wouldn’t swear to those last two. 

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Fusca
6 hours ago, necturus said:

I am tired of responding to sonorafans. He can read the observations in the thread and see the palms that survived 18-20.

 

4 hours ago, Xenon said:
8 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I am unconvinced on the 18-20 advective event survival of this palm.

I think you missed the rest of this thread, see my pic on the first page.

Guys, Tom isn't doubting the survival of the other palms in this thread at 18°-20° - I believe that he only commented that the one planted at Lowe's in front of that brick building didn't experience 18°-20° because it's in a microclimate that likely only experienced 23° the night it went down to 18° across the street from it.  He's got a ton of experience growing Bismarckia not only in "humid as Houston" Florida but also quite arid Arizona - quite different climates.

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Jeff985
21 minutes ago, Fusca said:

 

Guys, Tom isn't doubting the survival of the other palms in this thread at 18°-20° - I believe that he only commented that the one planted at Lowe's in front of that brick building didn't experience 18°-20° because it's in a microclimate that likely only experienced 23° the night it went down to 18° across the street from it.  He's got a ton of experience growing Bismarckia not only in "humid as Houston" Florida but also quite arid Arizona - quite different climates.

That palm is in Webster. It was 19-20 there for that freeze. To find 18 you’d have to go about 30 miles north or west. The wall that palm is against is a west facing wall. It was completely exposed to the north and west. That freeze was advective and accompanied by freezing rain. I’m sure the wall made some difference, but not a lot. I would agree that this one didn’t experience 18 though. 

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Fusca
10 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

That palm is in Webster. It was 19-20 there for that freeze. To find 18 you’d have to go about 30 miles north or west. The wall that palm is against is a west facing wall. It was completely exposed to the north and west. That freeze was advective and accompanied by freezing rain. I’m sure the wall made some difference, but not a lot. I would agree that this one didn’t experience 18 though. 

That's interesting - if the day before the bad freeze was sunny the west facing wall might have absorbed a good bit of heat.  I've put some grapefruit-sized rocks around the base of my small Bizzy hoping it will help not only in winter but also year-round.  Have you ever read the old thread about the guy who was basically cooking his Bizzy and stimulated some crazy growth?  I can't remember the details but apparently they really thrive in the heat.  That was a classic thread!  I haven't been so bold with mine but it really hasn't started growing fast yet and we've been over 107° several times this summer so I've started wondering if I've got a runt!

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Xenon

I don't think the wall was providing much heat either, the duration of the freeze was long enough to pretty much negate the much wider urban heat island effect that kept parts of Houston solidly 9b for 20 years or more preceding the event.

Here's a little weather summary:

The front arrived just after midnight on the 16th and by 9am it was below freezing and would stay below freezing all day with an afternoon high in the upper 20s accompanied by freezing rain and sleet. Temperatures continued to drop from there with an absolute low of 19F around sunrise on the 17th. Afternoon high on the 17th was just above freezing.  The wind finally died down that night and allowed for some moderation from the bay, low was in the upper 20s but the afternoon high on the 18th still did not crack 40F. 

https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/us/tx/houston/KEFD/date/2018-1

 

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Jeff985
6 hours ago, Xenon said:

I don't think the wall was providing much heat either, the duration of the freeze was long enough to pretty much negate the much wider urban heat island effect that kept parts of Houston solidly 9b for 20 years or more preceding the event.

Here's a little weather summary:

The front arrived just after midnight on the 16th and by 9am it was below freezing and would stay below freezing all day with an afternoon high in the upper 20s accompanied by freezing rain and sleet. Temperatures continued to drop from there with an absolute low of 19F around sunrise on the 17th. Afternoon high on the 17th was just above freezing.  The wind finally died down that night and allowed for some moderation from the bay, low was in the upper 20s but the afternoon high on the 18th still did not crack 40F. 

https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/us/tx/houston/KEFD/date/2018-1

 

I’ve been trying really hard to repress that memory. 

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Collectorpalms
On 8/23/2020 at 3:27 PM, Fusca said:

This one is in zone 9a San Antonio.  Took the pic last year so it must surely be larger now.  There is a forum member here @Duppy who lives about 10 miles west of me who has posted pics of large ones but he hasn't been active in several months.  I'll see if I can get an updated pic.  I have no idea of how long it's been planted or what kind of care it's been given and I doubt that it's been given any winter protection.

 

IMG_20190803_164939_burst_01.jpg

This is the one in the courtyard.... if so it’s been there over 10-15 years. It survived 2010 and 2011, but all the really crazy tropicals like royals and a teddy bear died. Since they were getting large when I saw them that’s disappointingly looks same size. 

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Collectorpalms
On 10/7/2020 at 4:31 AM, Jeff985 said:

I’ve been trying really hard to repress that memory. 

Oh then don't dare look back at dec 22-24 1989! Or 1983, 1962, 1951, 1949....

Be prepared!

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Xenon
4 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Oh then don't dare look back at dec 22-24 1989! Or 1983, 1962, 1951, 1949....

Be prepared!

Be prepared to replant with even more ambitious zone pushing to maximize the next warm cycle 

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Jeff985
7 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Be prepared to replant with even more ambitious zone pushing to maximize the next warm cycle 

Bring on the lipsticks... Okay, that might be a stretch, but seeing bottles and Adonidias around here is kinda cool. I know they won’t last long, but it’ll be cool while it lasts. 

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Collectorpalms
On 8/26/2020 at 6:52 PM, Xenon said:

Here is the Bismarckia on I10 in Katy 

20200826_181905.thumb.jpg.6c61211a3f1de4ead12bdc62405a94fb.jpg

I drove by that area many times. I think I was going to Houston Plant and Garden World. What is the cross street? I know it’s on the south side of I10 at a gas station I think. You can no longer see it from the freeway because of the landscaping of Trees along the freeways. 
This one survived 2010-2020. Someone needs to give it a few bags of soil or it’s going to fall over or be more tender to cold. What is going on with the base?

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Fusca
14 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

This is the one in the courtyard.... if so it’s been there over 10-15 years. It survived 2010 and 2011, but all the really crazy tropicals like royals and a teddy bear died. Since they were getting large when I saw them that’s disappointingly looks same size. 

Correct - this one is in the courtyard at Oblate.  They have another two in more exposed areas, but I didn't have a pic of them and they were smaller palms.

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Collectorpalms
9 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

@Collectorpalms It’s at I-10 and Fry. Just west of the intersection. 

Here is satellite. Must have been taken the season after 2018. I see no crown. I guess it was defoliated.

5FAC3796-B4B7-4B6A-9006-B7A9FB3E2374.jpeg

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Jeff985
8 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Here is satellite. Must have been taken the season after 2018. I see no crown. I guess it was defoliated.

 

Yeah. It defoliated in 2018. 

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Xenon
3 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

This one survived 2010-2020. 

It's actually even older than that and appears in 2008 streetview. Probably planted in 2007, there were originally two. 

bismarckia.thumb.JPG.022a099a7ab00b89bf2128f38469c7ea.JPG

Edited by Xenon

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Xenon

Here is another one nearby that was also probably installed in 2007.  The wall is west facing.  It has a full crown now, I'll try to get an updated pic soon. 

bismarckia2019.thumb.JPG.f512885cbdc28e36ce494052747834de.JPG

458186739_bismarckia2017.thumb.JPG.d06ecfd454576d8b51d64ed52d90770f.JPGbismarckia2008.thumb.JPG.27dfcd2b1c55fdd74d55905976fb0f49.JPG

 

Edited by Xenon

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Xenon

Another 2018 survivor 2015.thumb.JPG.dc0555510b3e570a15e9c3c662603114.JPG

2020.thumb.JPG.26b79fc26576898d61a277e9bf8a4396.JPG

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Collectorpalms
15 minutes ago, Xenon said:

It's actually even older than that and appears in 2008 streetview. Probably planted in 2007, there were originally two. 

bismarckia.thumb.JPG.022a099a7ab00b89bf2128f38469c7ea.JPG

I saw it before 2010. I always had my eye on it. I was surprised it survived 2010-2020 being exposed. But there is a freeway and the area has exploded in growth. When it was planted I considered it a zone 8b area and not zone 9a until beltway 8. But today I’d say most of Katy is a couple degrees warmer. 

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Collectorpalms
26 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Here is another one nearby that was also probably installed in 2007.  The wall is west facing.  It has a full crown now, I'll try to get an updated pic soon. 

bismarckia2019.thumb.JPG.f512885cbdc28e36ce494052747834de.JPG

458186739_bismarckia2017.thumb.JPG.d06ecfd454576d8b51d64ed52d90770f.JPGbismarckia2008.thumb.JPG.27dfcd2b1c55fdd74d55905976fb0f49.JPG

 

That one on the brick microclimate looks good. That is the color of brick pinkish brick is same color as mine. I just don’t have a wall that high. 

Houston Plant and Garden World that was in Katy on feeder of Interstate 10, must be why there are so many. They would occasionally carry oddball stuff at the time. I guess they are gone?? They had a few locations but down to 1 last I recall on 45 in Spring.


...the tallest bismarckia north into zone 9, I recall were/are on ocean drive in Corpus.
 

Are they being field grown in the Rio Grand Valley?

 

oh RIP Queen 2018. What percentage of Queens lost in Katy? Now that they have landscaped the freeway I can’t see them. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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