Developers who don't understand palm's requirements

[cbmnz]

Had a nosy at a coastal subdivision today since the bridge and road in has recently opened to public. Among other things, the developer has put in about 50 native R. Sapida  / Nikau.

They are probably locally sourced and the land the subdivison sits on would have contained 1000's of them back in the day when in an unmodified state. 

However, I actually think it is a poor choice. Exposed to full sun, wind and surrounded by hot concrete,they are never going to look good, most were struggling already despite each one been given a bit of a windbreak tunnel.  As street side plantings these  are going to survive but struggle on for years looking dry and ratty.

Planted as a grove in the reserve area, with other trees to provide shelter and canopy, their same investment could have been a real asset in a few years.

Don't imagine this is a local problem only, rest of you must see developers spend money on palms and think they did not make ther wisest choice!

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by cbmnz

[kinzyjr]

Yes, it's a worldwide phenomenon.  A few cases here:

• Adonidia merrillii out in the open - exposed to radiational freezes and a lot of wind.  Constant chill and a few frosts usually takes them to the mulch pile.  Then they replace them with... another triple planting!  If they planted them in a more sheltered area, they'd look nice longer and give us some nice red fruit at Christmas time.
• Hyophorbe lagenicaulis - similar issue as above
• Armed palms along walkways
• Desert plants on lots with standing water without building the area up to give better drainage

That said, equally bothersome are over-restrictive HOAs.  Everyone has the same 3 palms in the yard with the same 5 accent and foliage plants.

[NickJames]

As many on here know, I strong-armed the HOA into allowing me basically anything I wanted. 
 

However, I’ve heard some comical other restrictions they placed on one of my neighbors. 
 

One neighbor wanted to remove the mandatory live oak out back. The HOA told them it had to be replaced with another canopy tree or “two queen palms.” I laughed because I’m not sure how “two queen palms” is equivalent to an overbearing oak tree. I told them to just put in two royals as the HOA will never know the difference. 

[JLM]

Someone is trying to run a fake HOA in my neighborhood. About the same time every year they go around putting letters in mailboxes asking for money to help with the "HOA", when we know for a fact there isnt an HOA in this neighborhood. We have an old wooden sign, a few sagos, bradford pears, crape myrtles, and live oaks in our neighborhood entrances. Mind you these never got taken care of, ever.

[ahosey01]

1 hour ago, NickJames said:

As many on here know, I strong-armed the HOA into allowing me basically anything I wanted. 
 

However, I’ve heard some comical other restrictions they placed on one of my neighbors. 
 

One neighbor wanted to remove the mandatory live oak out back. The HOA told them it had to be replaced with another canopy tree or “two queen palms.” I laughed because I’m not sure how “two queen palms” is equivalent to an overbearing oak tree. I told them to just put in two royals as the HOA will never know the difference. 

Wait a minute, an HOA can restrict the type of plants you plant? Maybe mulberries or something messy, but I had no idea. Never lived in a neighborhood with one. 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Wait a minute, an HOA can restrict the type of plants you plant? Maybe mulberries or something messy, but I had no idea. Never lived in a neighborhood with one. 

Ohh yes.. they can,  and often do. Funny as it sounds, the commercial where the Neighborhood Nancy tells the other neighbor " these bushes are too tall, etc,etc" is sadly quite true to life in many instances..

When i lived in Bradenton, there were several neighborhoods located near a nursery i worked for who told their residents they could not grow fruit trees in the ground.. Or is what numerous clients i'd speak with would tell me.. someone i did some work for last year was told by their ---- ( insert your own choice of word/words for HOA ) they had to remove a 20+ft tall Saguaro in their front yard or it would be cut down..  HOA's are the worst " nosy/ busybody neighbor " kind of group that could have been created..

Many were also formed to ..Ahem, help "detur" some groups of people from living in "decent" neighborhoods ( most are "meh" looking, imo )..  Would never live in one, They'd despise me anyway, lol..  Should be outlawed. 

[necturus]

Down here some HOAs have lists of plants that are permitted and instructions about how to plant them.  Generally they don't object to small bedding plants in the front yard that aren't on the list. These neighborhoods look really boring. You almost never seen palms in the front yard outside of sagos.

Our neighborhood has a very weak HOA with no real enforcement powers, so things are more diverse and interesting. Yeah there are some eyesores, but things mostly look nice.

[cbmnz]

8 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Yes, it's a worldwide phenomenon.  A few cases here:

• Adonidia merrillii out in the open - exposed to radiational freezes and a lot of wind.  Constant chill and a few frosts usually takes them to the mulch pile.  Then they replace them with... another triple planting!  If they planted them in a more sheltered area, they'd look nice longer and give us some nice red fruit at Christmas time.
• Hyophorbe lagenicaulis - similar issue as above
• Armed palms along walkways
• Desert plants on lots with standing water without building the area up to give better drainage

That said, equally bothersome are over-restrictive HOAs.  Everyone has the same 3 palms in the yard with the same 5 accent and foliage plants.

Thought so.  Wonder what the mix is between developers who don't know verses don't care.  Those HOA things sound like unnecessary draconiasim,  glad anything like that is generally  rare if not non existent down here.

[GottmitAlex]

3 hours ago, NickJames said:

One neighbor wanted to remove the mandatory live oak out back. The HOA told them it had to be replaced with another canopy tree or “two queen palms.” I laughed because I’m not sure how “two queen palms” is equivalent to an overbearing oak tree. I told them to just put in two royals as the HOA will never know the difference. 

Bravo!!!! Hear, hear!

[NickJames]

I have mixed feelings about HOAs. I’ve always lived in one, however, I’m usually in when the developer still controls it and there is very little local oversight (I never seem to stay around long enough to run for HOA President). 
 

There are some benefits (which some may disagree with). There is something to be said for having a body that enforces some commonality among homes. For example, I wouldn’t want neighbors to put cheap fake/dyed red CYPRESS MULCH everywhere when pine bark or stone fits the aesthetic. Perhaps I’m a Karen!?

also hilarious is that my HOA doesn’t seem to care about everyone’s severe Manganese deficiency in all the queen palms because NOBODY FEEDS THEIR PLANTS. 
 

My general rule of thumb: if it looks good, nobody is going to complain. 

[Johnny Palmseed]

5 hours ago, NickJames said:

As many on here know, I strong-armed the HOA into allowing me basically anything I wanted. 
 

However, I’ve heard some comical other restrictions they placed on one of my neighbors. 
 

One neighbor wanted to remove the mandatory live oak out back. The HOA told them it had to be replaced with another canopy tree or “two queen palms.” I laughed because I’m not sure how “two queen palms” is equivalent to an overbearing oak tree. I told them to just put in two royals as the HOA will never know the difference. 

What’s funny about the mandatory live oak is that it will probably never be a canopy tree until most of the people are long gone. I’m sure the builder isn’t planting field grown trees. Our neighbors had planted a live oak about 25 years ago and it’s just now only about 20-25’ tall. It’s starting to look nice but it does not have any of the desired look of the old growth oaks yet. I like the tree but it’s super messy.

[ahosey01]

35 minutes ago, NickJames said:

I have mixed feelings about HOAs. I’ve always lived in one, however, I’m usually in when the developer still controls it and there is very little local oversight (I never seem to stay around long enough to run for HOA President). 
 

There are some benefits (which some may disagree with). There is something to be said for having a body that enforces some commonality among homes. For example, I wouldn’t want neighbors to put cheap fake/dyed red CYPRESS MULCH everywhere when pine bark or stone fits the aesthetic. Perhaps I’m a Karen!?

also hilarious is that my HOA doesn’t seem to care about everyone’s severe Manganese deficiency in all the queen palms because NOBODY FEEDS THEIR PLANTS. 
 

My general rule of thumb: if it looks good, nobody is going to complain. 

Yeah I guess maybe I’m old school. I got one neighbor with a great house and the other with a non-functioning car in the lot and grass they don’t mow. Way I see it, it ain’t my property so I can’t tell the man what to do with it.

[GottmitAlex]

37 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Yeah I guess maybe I’m old school. I got one neighbor with a great house and the other with a non-functioning car in the lot and grass they don’t mow. Way I see it, it ain’t my property so I can’t tell the man what to do with it.

I hear ya. However, even in Mexico, there are many HOA's. Yes, their nomenclature is called "privadas"( private). Where there is a guard stationed in a shack at the entrance of the neighborhood, etc. And these folks only approve washies and queens.

Lack of information.....

 

[NickJames]

3 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

Yeah I guess maybe I’m old school. I got one neighbor with a great house and the other with a non-functioning car in the lot and grass they don’t mow. Way I see it, it ain’t my property so I can’t tell the man what to do with it.

I 100% agree with you if you’re not in an HOA. 

However, when you purchase or build a home in an HOA, you sign a contract agreeing to abide by the covenants and restrictions. It wasn’t a secret. 

As a REALTOR, I always encourage prospective buyers to comb through all the documents, talk to neighbors, and really get a feel how the HOA is going to be. 

[ahosey01]

2 minutes ago, NickJames said:

I 100% agree with you if you’re not in an HOA. 

However, when you purchase or build a home in an HOA, you sign a contract agreeing to abide by the covenants and restrictions. It wasn’t a secret. 

As a REALTOR, I always encourage prospective buyers to comb through all the documents, talk to neighbors, and really get a feel how the HOA is going to be. 

Right before I bought this house, I looked at one in an HOA.  I drive a big lifted Chevy Express 3500 because we spend a lot of time out in the desert and I have a bunch of kids.  We read through the CC&Rs and I'll be damned... there was a clause prohibiting vehicles of that size from parking in the association!  Needless to say we did not purchase.  LOL.

[NickJames]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Right before I bought this house, I looked at one in an HOA.  I drive a big lifted Chevy Express 3500 because we spend a lot of time out in the desert and I have a bunch of kids.  We read through the CC&Rs and I'll be damned... there was a clause prohibiting vehicles of that size from parking in the association!  Needless to say we did not purchase.  LOL.

That’s the way to do it! Doing the homework!

[WaianaeCrider]

11 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

Wait a minute, an HOA can restrict the type of plants you plant? Maybe mulberries or something messy, but I had no idea. Never lived in a neighborhood with one. 

What ever the benefits, I would NEVER live anywhere w/in a HOA community.  No one's gonna tell me what to plant or build on my land.  Well there are some building restrictions by the city..but NO planting rules... LOL 

[Palmfarmer]

7 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

I hear ya. However, even in Mexico, there are many HOA's. Yes, their nomenclature is called "privadas"( private). Where there is a guard stationed in a shack at the entrance of the neighborhood, etc. And these folks only approve washies and queens.

Lack of information.....

 

outside of border towns also? Glad there is no crap like that here. oh you talk about those closed communities with guards, yeah those exist here also. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Palmfarmer

[GottmitAlex]

3 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

outside of border towns also? Glad there is no crap like that here. oh you talk about those closed communities with guards, yeah those exist here also. 

Yes.

[cm05]

HOA’s sound miserable.

[DoomsDave]

22 hours ago, NickJames said:

I have mixed feelings about HOAs. I’ve always lived in one, however, I’m usually in when the developer still controls it and there is very little local oversight (I never seem to stay around long enough to run for HOA President). 
 

There are some benefits (which some may disagree with). There is something to be said for having a body that enforces some commonality among homes. For example, I wouldn’t want neighbors to put cheap fake/dyed red CYPRESS MULCH everywhere when pine bark or stone fits the aesthetic. Perhaps I’m a Karen!?

also hilarious is that my HOA doesn’t seem to care about everyone’s severe Manganese deficiency in all the queen palms because NOBODY FEEDS THEIR PLANTS. 
 

My general rule of thumb: if it looks good, nobody is going to complain. 

How about Celebration?

Any thoughts? I had a lawyer friend, now deceased who loved the place.

[Gonzer]

There was a member here about 15 years (or so) ago who up and moved his entire bamboo collection after buying a house in an HOA run division. The story didn't have a happy ending.

[NickJames]

18 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

How about Celebration?

Any thoughts? I had a lawyer friend, now deceased who loved the place.

I think Celebration is going to be far more strict than an HOA such as mine. At this point, Celebration is an established community. Though, they have so many issues with their actual home structures (stucco cracks, etc.) - you would think landscaping would be the last of their concerns  

Since my HOA is developer run still (since neighborhood is new), they are so bogged down - you can often run down the clock with requests (they only have 30 days under Florida law to review - most people don’t know that). 

I don’t “love” Celebration. It is not really a chartered town like some people think. It’s an unincorporated area of Osceola County.

I get why some people don’t like HOAs. But you’re moving into one for a reason. I don’t mind the homogenous nature of a neighborhood like mine. It helps with property values - so much so, that my home has already increased in value $40,000 in a year (not including the ‘value’ of my landscaping and pavers etc. which don’t really net you Much in appraised value, but help in the resale staging). 

[Oviedo_z10b_lol]

21 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

How about Celebration?

Any thoughts? I had a lawyer friend, now deceased who loved the place.

You gotta really love the mouse to live there. Cool place, don’t get me wrong. But I lost some affection for Disney once I reached the age of 17.  To each their own. 
 

and yes, there is a lot of construction defect litigation involving those homes. I’m defending one as our client was a sub- of a sub-... That area was probably rushed to development. 

[Tracy]

A couple of qualifications on why HOA's exist.  It isn't strictly for enforcement of uniformity in landscape, house paint colors or other aesthetics.  In some cases there are "common areas" such as community pools, tot lots and/or greenbelts that give rise to the HOA.  My Carlsbad house has an HOA, with common areas around the perimeter of the neighborhood, a tot lot and pool.  We were original owners, so as Nick mentioned, we did a lot of work prior to the neighborhood taking over, but we also have done plenty of thing later.  In that neighborhood, things have gone in cycles, all dependent on who is on the HOA.  In that it isn't a huge development, the management company let's the elected board have a great deal of leeway.  The house is just outside another much larger master planned community, that has sub HOA's as well as the master planning HOA... that was a level I personally wasn't willing to accept.  I was happy to move to "funky town" Leucadia, across the lagoon, in a part of town where we don't have HOA's, no curbs or sidewalks except some small infill projects built more recently.  Yes there are some places a little run down or painted funky colors, but the saying is "Keep Leucadia Funky".... and by the way, when you drive through town, you may see some signs posted in front of homes that say "Slow the Funk down, you're in Leucadia".

Having the community pool, with jacuzzi and outdoor shower was nice when my kids were young, but now I don't need those "community services", so no need to live in a neighborhood with an HOA and much happier for it! 

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, Oviedo_z10b_lol said:

You gotta really love the mouse to live there. Cool place, don’t get me wrong. But I lost some affection for Disney once I reached the age of 17.  To each their own. 
 

and yes, there is a lot of construction defect litigation involving those homes. I’m defending one as our client was a sub- of a sub-... That area was probably rushed to development. 

Ah, another attorney!

Nice to meet you!

[ruskinPalms]

I think HOAs become a necessary evil as the lot sizes in a neighborhood get smaller. I think it is ok to go without an HOA as the lot sizes all approach 1 acre or greater. Unfortunately, people don’t self govern well and I have seen plenty of old Florida neighborhoods without HOAs that have small lot sizes that are not a place you’d likely want to live - even if they are in a nice growing zone. And, it’s not like you have complete freedom to do whatever you want in a non-HOA community. There are county rules etc.  Fortunately, my HOA seems pretty lenient and my neighborhood definitely trends tropical landscaping but as mentioned above, that can always change as different people are in the board. Also, paying for it stinks too but at least I get a decent cable and internet package out of it. Pros and cons to everything out there I guess. 

[ruskinPalms]

And to stay on topic, my community try’s to plant queen palms in the common areas and they tend to be yellowed out, stunted or downright dead. They do also use a lot of P. reclinata, Pygmy dates,  Chamaerops, Washingtonia, Sabals and even have used a Bismarckia and Wodyetia here and there so there may be some hope. All of the other palms besides the queen palms look decent. Queen palms only look good with lots of fertilizer and water in my area, which the landscape maintenance company hired by the HOA can’t seem to figure out.

 

[NickJames]

2 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

And to stay on topic, my community try’s to plant queen palms in the common areas and they tend to be yellowed out, stunted or downright dead. They do also use a lot of P. reclinata, Pygmy dates,  Chamaerops, Washingtonia, Sabals and even have used a Bismarckia and Wodyetia here and there so there may be some hope. All of the other palms besides the queen palms look decent. Queen palms only look good with lots of fertilizer and water in my area, which the landscape maintenance company hired by the HOA can’t seem to figure out.

 

I went door to door with bags of manganese for my neighbors (with my realtor business card stapled to it) and people still didn’t get the hint

[DoomsDave]

On 8/8/2020 at 7:21 PM, NickJames said:

I 100% agree with you if you’re not in an HOA. 

However, when you purchase or build a home in an HOA, you sign a contract agreeing to abide by the covenants and restrictions. It wasn’t a secret. 

As a REALTOR, I always encourage prospective buyers to comb through all the documents, talk to neighbors, and really get a feel how the HOA is going to be. 

As a lawyer, I affirm, and reaffirm and heartily concur.

If there is an HOA, search the local court records to see if there's a lot of internal issue litigation. If there is, watch out. If there isn't investigate further to be sure there's not a sleeping dragon getting ready to devour everyone. I can and has happened.

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, NickJames said:

I went door to door with bags of manganese for my neighbors (with my realtor business card stapled to it) and people still didn’t get the hint

Will your HOA approve of B. alfredii?

[NickJames]

41 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Will your HOA approve of B. alfredii?

They’ll just think it’s a queen palm or something lol. Short answer, yes. 
 

and yes I know I need one, along with a few others...

 

but where to put them

[DoomsDave]

5 hours ago, NickJames said:

They’ll just think it’s a queen palm or something lol. Short answer, yes. 
 

and yes I know I need one, along with a few others...

 

but where to put them

Compared to me, you have lots of room!