Jump to content
ahosey01

Wild Washingtonia filifera in AZ

Recommended Posts

ahosey01

Figured I would share some pictures.  These are truly native Washingtonia filifera growing in a narrow canyon in southwest Arizona.  Interestingly, they appear to be self-cleaning, unlike the ones in the canyons on the north side of the Coachella Valley.

4776BA8E-BC8F-46B8-83D5-C48022DCB27C.thumb.jpeg.51934517e6f55299c292e502c040f7f5.jpeg

21404E39-1B3A-441C-86CC-77DC397B3DCD.thumb.jpeg.71ccc5b08772fb774cd5aeb630dbcc39.jpeg

14F3350B-680D-4B94-9C71-B1287E060741.thumb.jpeg.964b41791f797c632931352f32e1a404.jpeg

020308D4-642E-466D-B9F8-BC433090BEB7.thumb.jpeg.5762637d2bb91141ceb84f9081f5fe79.jpeg

  • Like 9
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex

These Washies had work performed on them.

They have gone under the knife, as it were. 

I can see the blade cut scars.

 

 

Screenshot_20200723-152150_Chrome.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

These Washies had work performed on them.

They have gone under the knife, as it were. 

I can see the blade cut scars.

 

 

Screenshot_20200723-152150_Chrome.jpg

That is what I thought too, but information I found from the BLM indicated they were self-pruning.

After you said that, though, I found this passage in a paper published by ASU about the Palm Canyon population in 1990:

"Even the United States Government, which generally errs only in its economic predictions, agrees that these are self shedding or pruning palms. It states this in a leaflet distributed at the Kofa National Wildlife Refuge, by specifically stating this: "The west end of the Kofa Mountains is well known as the location of Palm Canyon, where native palms grow in a spectacular canyon setting. These palms differ from the California desert species in that the dead fronds are dropped to leave the trunks naked, whereas those in California retain the dead fronds which entirely conceal the trunk" (Anon. 1982)."

However, that same paper also states that the leaves are actually burned - rather than pruned - off.  Interesting point, though.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex

I hear ya! Nice story. Hate to break it to you. However fanciful, washies in whatever climate they may live/survive in, will have their leaves attached to their bases perpetually. Sans human intervention.  Even these "wild" Arizona washies.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

:greenthumb:

 

Btw: those old leaf skirts are a haven for bats, mice and cockroaches, among other pests....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex

Adam, welcome to PalmTalk!

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
20 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

I hear ya! Nice story. Hate to break it to you. However fanciful, washies in whatever climate they may live/survive in, will have their leaves attached to their bases perpetually. Sans human intervention.  Even these "wild" Arizona washies.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

:greenthumb:

 

Btw: those old leaf skirts are a haven for bats, mice and cockroaches, among other pests....

Realistically my initial instinct after reading information published by the government should have been "well this is probably incorrect..." lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

Those have been exposed to fire not completely self pruning. If they were they'd have a pile of fronds under them instead of a few scattered about.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex
3 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Those have been exposed to fire not completely self pruning. If they were they'd have a pile of fronds under them instead of a few scattered about.

Fire or not, at a certain point, human intervention was present with those palms. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TexasColdHardyPalms

I respecfully disagree alex.  That trunk looks like an old washingtonian to me. They break and crack like that

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex
2 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I respecfully disagree alex.  That trunk looks like an old washingtonian to me. They break and crack like that

I understand your point Joe.

I had 5 and still keep a 20ft tiki.

I recognize knife wounds (scars). on a washie when I see them. 

However, I defer to your opinion. 

I guess what I'm sayin' is there was, at a certain point, human intervention with these palms.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Silas_Sancona
1 hour ago, GottmitAlex said:

Btw: those old leaf skirts are a haven for bats, mice and cockroaches, among other pests....

You mean critical habitat for animals that depend on such shelter.... out in the desert anyway.

Edited by Silas_Sancona
edit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Silas_Sancona
13 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Those have been exposed to fire not completely self pruning. If they were they'd have a pile of fronds under them instead of a few scattered about.

Agree 100%, Can see some remnant ash on the sides of some of the trunks as well..  Totally natural pruning.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex

Quite right. I overlooked that. Thank you.

But let it be noted that Washies, by themselves, are not self cleaning.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Frond-friend42

Awesome pics. Here's a baby:20200723_211030.thumb.jpg.fd578df1cdf629649d03d633062f94e7.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kinzyjr
Just now, Frond-friend42 said:

Awesome pics. Here's a baby:

Happen to know where the parent was from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Frond-friend42

Whatcom seeds from seedrack.com. HQ is Eugene Oregon. That tell you anything? I just figured all filiferas are the same. I'm curious now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kinzyjr
Just now, Frond-friend42 said:

Whatcom seeds from seedrack.com. HQ is Eugene Oregon. That tell you anything? I just figured all filiferas are the same. I'm curious now.

I was more or less curious if it was from this particular area.  I'm not sure that there is any significant difference.  Most of mine are from the Moapa Valley area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
38 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

I was more or less curious if it was from this particular area.  I'm not sure that there is any significant difference.  Most of mine are from the Moapa Valley area.

Next time I’m out there I could check for seed. Probably nobody out there this time of year. It’s easily 110 daily in that area. Closer to Havasu and Yuma than Phoenix, and those cities are both hotter.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kinzyjr
3 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Next time I’m out there I could check for seed. Probably nobody out there this time of year. It’s easily 110 daily in that area. Closer to Havasu and Yuma than Phoenix, and those cities are both hotter.

You're almost guaranteed to find a few.  Don't get heat stroke out looking for seeds.  I'm good on plants as I have ~25-30 in the ground at this point.  In the case of growing them here, it mostly comes down to hoping a few are slightly more humidity and top water tolerant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
25 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

You're almost guaranteed to find a few.  Don't get heat stroke out looking for seeds.  I'm good on plants as I have ~25-30 in the ground at this point.  In the case of growing them here, it mostly comes down to hoping a few are slightly more humidity and top water tolerant.

I’ll give you a shout if I go out.  Im always out there even in the summer.  I love the heat.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sonoranfans

These look natural to me, they are in a cold and wet climate at around 4000-5000 ft elevation, not seen down in the valley and in most of coastal CA.  Those canyons are too cold in the long term for washingtonia robusta to proliferate.  I seriously doubt anyone trimmed them.  Fires may do that naturally.  Self shedding of palms depends on climate.  With shedding old dead material of the leafbase at the trunk will rot and then the leaf drops.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PalmatierMeg

I can't grow W. filifera but I had a robusta for over 20 years. We had to prune dead fronds when it was small but it soon grew too tall to reach even with a ladder. I kind of looked forward to a long "skirt" of dead fronds but that was never to be. Every time we had a tropical storm, violent thunderstorm or any source of high winds, dead fronds would rain and blow all over the yard. So, self-cleaning palm: no. Nature cleaned palm: yes, definitely. I believe rain and humid heat break down the elements that attach old fronds to their trunk. Winds did the rest.

I love the photos of those wild Washies in that narrow canyon. Thanks for sharing them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Darold Petty

Alex, I have visited this site in person.  I had thought to attempt a seed collection but the extreme steepness of the ravine dissuaded me.  The photograph image give a false impression of the very steep slope.  It would be  difficult to climb up to these palms.  

I can't imagine any incentive for these palms to have been trimmed by humans.   Also, the trunks are bare higher than a person's reach so the use of a ladder would have been necessary.   :)   

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
22 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Alex, I have visited this site in person.  I had thought to attempt a seed collection but the extreme steepness of the ravine dissuaded me.  The photograph image give a false impression of the very steep slope.  It would be  difficult to climb up to these palms.  

I can't imagine any incentive for these palms to have been trimmed by humans.   Also, the trunks are bare higher than a person's reach so the use of a ladder would have been necessary.   :)   

Yeah, this is a good point.  I have no idea how you would get a ladder up there.  I climbed up to the palms with my 11-year old daughter.  We are rock climbers - we didn't have to use any gear, but we did have to stem up two narrow walls probably 6-7 feet above the ground.  By "stem" I mean put one foot and one hand on one wall, and the other foot and the other hand on the other wall, and use opposing forces to climb upwards.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kinzyjr
8 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Yeah, this is a good point.  I have no idea how you would get a ladder up there.  I climbed up to the palms with my 11-year old daughter.  We are rock climbers - we didn't have to use any gear, but we did have to stem up two narrow walls probably 6-7 feet above the ground.  By "stem" I mean put one foot and one hand on one wall, and the other foot and the other hand on the other wall, and use opposing forces to climb upwards.

Take a boomerang :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex
1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

Alex, I have visited this site in person.  I had thought to attempt a seed collection but the extreme steepness of the ravine dissuaded me.  The photograph image give a false impression of the very steep slope.  It would be  difficult to climb up to these palms.  

I can't imagine any incentive for these palms to have been trimmed by humans.   Also, the trunks are bare higher than a person's reach so the use of a ladder would have been necessary.   :)   

I see. I now understand these were affected by fire and afterwards new spears were produced. 

Thank you everyone. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DoomsDave

@ahosey01, nice to meet you!

Nice pictures, too!

I'll bet that canyon gets fires here and there. Once those Washies get skirts of any size, it's a Pyromanic's ParadiseTM  waiting to happen.

I think Washie trunks are flame-retardant of even fireproof. I've seen situations where there'd been a really blazing fire, which, instead of burning the trunks, caused them to cook and fall over. After they dry, they still don't want to burn, till they've sat around for years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UK_Palms

Wonderful pictures! I would be drooling over that palm grove as Filifera is probably my favourite palm, or at least it is certainly in my top 3. Hopefully one day I can visit one of the natural populations in either CA, AZ, UT etc.

What kind of highs and lows do these particular palms take each summer/winter? Just curious? I would imagine they must see close to 120F once or twice each summer and lows down to 15F every couple of years? Correct me if wrong...

Here's my biggest Filifera (picture taken in April). There's some Filibusta hybrids in the background... 

thumbnail_image2-2.thumb.jpg.b441d89b0dd5bc1d9f47530248633790.jpg

I have just left my Filifera outdoors in it's pot the past two winters, but I will plant it in the ground as soon as I move to the new house. It's certainly frustrating keeping up with it's watering demands during summer, as the fronds brown off pretty quickly if it doesn't get regular and adequate, deep watering (literally every 2 days from May - September).

I never would have expected Filifera to require so much water in summer, given their native environment and the fact that they are drought tolerant. They must put down deep roots to the ground water in their natural environment, although I know they generally grow along streams/creeks. Either way they appear to need more water than Trachycarpus palms during summer, from my observations... 

Edited by UK_Palms
Spelling
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
18 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Wonderful pictures! I would be drooling over that palm grove as Filifera is probably my favourite palm, or at least it is certainly in my top 3. Hopefully one day I can visit one of the natural populations in either CA, AZ, UT etc.

What kind of highs and lows do these particular palms take each summer/winter? Just curious? I would imagine they must see close to 120F once or twice each summer and lows down to 15F every couple of years? Correct me if wrong...

Here's my biggest Filifera (picture taken in April). There's some Filibusta hybrids in the background... 

thumbnail_image2-2.thumb.jpg.b441d89b0dd5bc1d9f47530248633790.jpg

I have just left my Filifera outdoors in it's pot the past two winters, but I will plant it in the ground as soon as I move to the new house. It's certainly frustrating keeping up with it's watering demands during summer, as the fronds brown off pretty quickly if it doesn't get regular and adequate, deep watering (literally every 2 days from May - September).

I never would have expected Filifera to require so much water in summer, given their native environment and the fact that they are drought tolerant. They must put down deep roots to the ground water in their natural environment, although I know they generally grow along streams/creeks. Either way they appear to need more water than Trachycarpus palms during summer, from my observations... 

Okay so... with the caveat that I am not a biologist, geologist, ecologist, botanist or anyone who would know anything about this stuff by training, here is my thought on the weather these see...

In that canyon, both walls are solid rock faces. It’s not a canyon like say the Grand Canyon where the walls are kind of like inverted mountains and there is a lot of dirt, rock, flora, fauna, etc. In Palm Canyon, both walls are pure rock. Second, the canyon is open to the south at an angle that roasts it at probably the hottest part of the day. I think 120 in that area once or twice per year is not unrealistic. The 15 low might not be, though. The canyon floor is wildly steep and those palms are probably 500 feet or more above its lowest point. Cold air drainage from there to the bottom of the canyon is probably good, and I have to believe that those stone faces are creating a microclimate that protects them from 15. Every few years I could see 25, but I think 15 is probably pretty low.

As far as water, my thought is that most of the sediment that has accumulated in that canyon is desert clay.  I also think that most likely, the fact that the direct sun exposure is less than on the open desert means that the humidity in there is retained, and the water doesn’t evaporate out of the soil as quickly.

You can see a similar effect in my neighborhood. Where I live in Wickenburg, we have a clay/silt soil that doesn’t sit terribly high above the water table from the Hassayampa River. There are established Eastern Black Walnut, Red Maple, Ash, Elm, White Oak and Spruce trees all growing in 110+ temps without supplemental irrigation in my neighborhood. This is probably similar to what is going on with the filifera in Palm Canyon. There is even some indication of this with the lushness of the ground cover below the palms. I’m even going to plant a couple Gingko biloba in my yard given the unique conditions in my neighborhood.

The American Southwest is a fascinating place.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UK_Palms
1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Okay so... with the caveat that I am not a biologist, geologist, ecologist, botanist or anyone who would know anything about this stuff by training, here is my thought on the weather these see...

In that canyon, both walls are solid rock faces. It’s not a canyon like say the Grand Canyon where the walls are kind of like inverted mountains and there is a lot of dirt, rock, flora, fauna, etc. In Palm Canyon, both walls are pure rock. Second, the canyon is open to the south at an angle that roasts it at probably the hottest part of the day. I think 120 in that area once or twice per year is not unrealistic. The 15 low might not be, though. The canyon floor is wildly steep and those palms are probably 500 feet or more above its lowest point. Cold air drainage from there to the bottom of the canyon is probably good, and I have to believe that those stone faces are creating a microclimate that protects them from 15. Every few years I could see 25, but I think 15 is probably pretty low.

As far as water, my thought is that most of the sediment that has accumulated in that canyon is desert clay.  I also think that most likely, the fact that the direct sun exposure is less than on the open desert means that the humidity in there is retained, and the water doesn’t evaporate out of the soil as quickly.

You can see a similar effect in my neighborhood. Where I live in Wickenburg, we have a clay/silt soil that doesn’t sit terribly high above the water table from the Hassayampa River. There are established Eastern Black Walnut, Red Maple, Ash, Elm, White Oak and Spruce trees all growing in 110+ temps without supplemental irrigation in my neighborhood. This is probably similar to what is going on with the filifera in Palm Canyon. There is even some indication of this with the lushness of the ground cover below the palms. I’m even going to plant a couple Gingko biloba in my yard given the unique conditions in my neighborhood.

The American Southwest is a fascinating place.

I appreciate your input and observations pal. It's interesting to hear you describe the ecology and environment of this palm grove. 25F every few years seems pretty high, but what do I know. I would have thought in a rural, inland area of the desert at 32N, that is at a higher elevation, they would see 25F every year and maybe close to 20F most years. But again, I'm not clued up on that environment/climate, unlike yourself. So I'm probably wrong. 

I really want to do the route 66 tour, incorporating the Yosemite, Sequoia NP, Zion NP, Bryce Canyon, Arches NP, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Lake Havasu etc (my grandad from East Ham worked on dismantling the original London bridge that is now in Lake Havasu). Obviously with the whole coronavirus ordeal, I don't know how long it will be until travelling overseas is realistic, at least to the USA. Let alone mainland Europe. 

I have already lost out on a £1,000 holiday/vacation to Greece this year as they are refusing flights/entry for us Brit's (we have highest death toll in Europe). I had flights, hotels all booked for Athens and Crete back in January, but I can't travel now. I have only been able to recoup £500 of the fees through my travel insurance. A real bummer. Not convinced I will be able to go state side now for a few years now either. I have extended family in Baton Rogue, Louisiana and Fort Worth, Texas as well, on my mother's side. They're not coming over here this year due to this damn virus and they've been visiting us year on year, for the past 20 years, up until this blasted pandemic. My second cousin of which is a keen palm/exotic grower like myself in the Fort Worth area. 

I have clay soil much like yourself and it is crap for my palms. Tracycarpus especially hates it and the fronds turn yellow each winter/spring as a result. Chamaerops and Washie's less so. As soon as I move house I will plant the Washie's and other exotics as they seem to do pretty well here. There are quite a few biggish Filifera's within a 30 mile radius of me, which gives me confidence in planting them out here...

washie99.jpg.62bb4a783795acc8a190a7277b4a93c9.jpg

378767508_Washie7.jpg.1a02c118541a89b0ea9c1f2ed89274ce.jpg

43465379_Filifera10.jpg.89dcab93224b600bb3eefd7c56c34890.jpg

:greenthumb:

Edited by UK_Palms
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Silas_Sancona
1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

 

In that canyon, both walls are solid rock faces. It’s not a canyon like say the Grand Canyon where the walls are kind of like inverted mountains and there is a lot of dirt, rock, flora, fauna, etc. In Palm Canyon, both walls are pure rock. Second, the canyon is open to the south at an angle that roasts it at probably the hottest part of the day. I think 120 in that area once or twice per year is not unrealistic. The 15 low might not be, though. The canyon floor is wildly steep and those palms are probably 500 feet or more above its lowest point. Cold air drainage from there to the bottom of the canyon is probably good, and I have to believe that those stone faces are creating a microclimate that protects them from 15. Every few years I could see 25, but I think 15 is probably pretty low.

As far as water, my thought is that most of the sediment that has accumulated in that canyon is desert clay.  I also think that most likely, the fact that the direct sun exposure is less than on the open desert means that the humidity in there is retained, and the water doesn’t evaporate out of the soil as quickly.

 

Would agree w/ both thoughts.. 

Would bet those canyon walls likely radiate heat, like my block wall.. which would be especially important during the winter during a cold spell.. Being that the canyon opens to the south, it might also benefit from more sun exposure also that time of year also.

Would add that there is likely some sort of underground spring that works its way down out of the canyon, providing this group w/ a water source during the summer.  Other vegetation i can see growing there fits in w/ plants you would encounter in that kind of habitat..

One thing i'm not seeing  ..or isn't apparent in the pictures at least..  are younger palms of various sizes in among the older ones.  Most of these specimens appear pretty close in age. Makes me wonder if this is the final stage of a relict population that is slowly but surely aging out of existence in that location.. Could be seedlings just can't get a good enough foothold before being eaten/ killed by fire/ dying out due to some constant adverse change in the local climate. Interesting...

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UK_Palms
11 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Would agree w/ both thoughts.. 

Would bet those canyon walls likely radiate heat, like my block wall.. which would be especially important during the winter during a cold spell.. Being that the canyon opens to the south, it might also benefit from more sun exposure also that time of year also.

Would add that there is likely some sort of underground spring that works its way down out of the canyon, providing this group w/ a water source during the summer.  Other vegetation i can see growing there fits in w/ plants you would encounter in that kind of habitat..

One thing i'm not seeing  ..or isn't apparent in the pictures at least..  are younger palms of various sizes in among the older ones.  Most of these specimens appear pretty close in age. Makes me wonder if this is the final stage of a relict population that is slowly but surely aging out of existence in that location.. Could be seedlings just can't get a good enough foothold before being eaten/ killed by fire/ dying out due to some constant adverse change in the local climate. Interesting...

Are you suggesting that global warming/climate change might be playing a part in this native population of Filifera?

Just curious, as I have been a climate change sceptic myself over the past decade or so, although I have been seeing/experiencing drastic changes in precipitation in recent years, as well as winter temperatures...

Peace :greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
1 minute ago, UK_Palms said:

Are you suggesting that global warming/climate change might be playing a part in this native population of Filifera?

Just curious, as I have been a climate change sceptic myself over the past decade or so, although I have been seeing/experiencing drastic changes in precipitation in recent years, as well as winter temperatures...

Peace :greenthumb:

I think whether you are skeptical or not about the amount (if any) of climate change which is caused by human activity, the climate is always in flux at some level.

The idea that periods of prolonged dry or wet periods come and go in the desert over hundreds of years is pretty much standard fare in desert climatology (what little I understand of it).  Silas’ point is probably that as these changes have fallen on the Sonoran desert, the conditions of the last ~100 years have been challenging for the proliferation of this population of filifera

Another interesting idea is that these were seeded by nomadic southwestern natives. I have heard this theory discussed about the Moapa Valley filifera before.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
39 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I appreciate your input and observations pal. It's interesting to hear you describe the ecology and environment of this palm grove. 25F every few years seems pretty high, but what do I know. I would have thought in a rural, inland area of the desert at 32N, that is at a higher elevation, they would see 25F every year and maybe close to 20F most years. But again, I'm not clued up on that environment/climate, unlike yourself. So I'm probably wrong. 

I really want to do the route 66 tour, incorporating the Yosemite, Sequoia NP, Zion NP, Bryce Canyon, Arches NP, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Lake Havasu etc (my grandad from East Ham worked on dismantling the original London bridge that is now in Lake Havasu). Obviously with the whole coronavirus ordeal, I don't know how long it will be until travelling overseas is realistic, at least to the USA. Let alone mainland Europe. 

I have already lost out on a £1,000 holiday/vacation to Greece this year as they are refusing flights/entry for us Brit's (we have highest death toll in Europe). I had flights, hotels all booked for Athens and Crete back in January, but I can't travel now. I have only been able to recoup £500 of the fees through my travel insurance. A real bummer. Not convinced I will be able to go state side now for a few years now either. I have extended family in Baton Rogue, Louisiana and Fort Worth, Texas as well, on my mother's side. They're not coming over here this year due to this damn virus and they've been visiting us year on year, for the past 20 years, up until this blasted pandemic. My second cousin of which is a keen palm/exotic grower like myself in the Fort Worth area. 

I have clay soil much like yourself and it is crap for my palms. Tracycarpus especially hates it and the fronds turn yellow each winter/spring as a result. Chamaerops and Washie's less so. As soon as I move house I will plant the Washie's and other exotics as they seem to do pretty well here. There are quite a few biggish Filifera's within a 30 mile radius of me, which gives me confidence in planting them out here...

washie99.jpg.62bb4a783795acc8a190a7277b4a93c9.jpg

378767508_Washie7.jpg.1a02c118541a89b0ea9c1f2ed89274ce.jpg

43465379_Filifera10.jpg.89dcab93224b600bb3eefd7c56c34890.jpg

:greenthumb:

Higher elevation in the desert is a double edged sword.  For large, open areas of high elevation desert (I.e. the Great Basin desert or the Colorado Plateau), higher elevation definitely means colder temperatures.  However, in the low desert - especially in SW AZ (the lowest desert outside of the imperial valley), higher elevation in the form of mountains and hills often means warmer overnight lows because so much cold air drains off the mountaintops and into the valleys.  This is only true to a point, though.  It is always colder overnight at the top of Harquahala Peak (5,000ft) than it is in the Harquahala Valley (800 ft), both in the Sonoran Desert.  But the palms are growing right around 2600 ft, with the valley floor around 2000 ft, so this difference is going to have more of a warming than a cooling effect.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Silas_Sancona
3 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Are you suggesting that global warming/climate change might be playing a part in this native population of Filifera?

Just curious, as I have been a climate change sceptic myself over the past decade or so, although I have been seeing/experiencing drastic changes in precipitation in recent years, as well as winter temperatures...

Peace :greenthumb:

It's having an effect on everything..  No denying science..  Saguaro are starting to show obvious declines in recruitment ( few to any new seedlings/ younger plants ) in some areas here,  Screwbean Mesquite, ( Prosopis pubescens ) and our native Ironwood are retracting from areas along the Colorado River/ some other dry riparian areas in both S.E. CA and AZ... While that is due in part to over use of the Aquifer in that area, less rain across the region, overall  results in less recharge into those basins over time  and is a bigger factor.. Though it would be less impactful w/out human miss-use.

In the case of the palms in this location,  the same, less reliable amounts of yearly/ decadal rainfall would make it more of a challenge for seedlings to establish themselves.. As mentioned, there may be smaller plants there, just not visible in the pictures. That said, in pictures from Anza Borrego, you can clearly see specimens of varying size/age  ..an indication of continual recruitment in that location/ others nearby.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UK_Palms
24 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Higher elevation in the desert is a double edged sword.  For large, open areas of high elevation desert (I.e. the Great Basin desert or the Colorado Plateau), higher elevation definitely means colder temperatures.  However, in the low desert - especially in SW AZ (the lowest desert outside of the imperial valley), higher elevation in the form of mountains and hills often means warmer overnight lows because so much cold air drains off the mountaintops and into the valleys.  This is only true to a point, though.  It is always colder overnight at the top of Harquahala Peak (5,000ft) than it is in the Harquahala Valley (800 ft), both in the Sonoran Desert.  But the palms are growing right around 2600 ft, with the valley floor around 2000 ft, so this difference is going to have more of a warming than a cooling effect.

Right, thanks for educating me on the matter. I wouldn't know otherwise. I'm just taking stuff into account/consideration, but obviously I have never visited these places so I wouldn't know, ultimately. So I am mostly going on assumptions. It helps to have a knowledgeable source, who has visited the palms in person, and knows the area, to offer feedback on their location and environment. And the extremes of temperature that they may endure. I am thoroughly intrigued though, since Washingtonia Filifera's are one of my favourite palms and I am interested in hearing about them in general, especially in their native environment. I just hope I can visit their native populations myself in the coming years. 

They clearly must be quite adaptable however, to grow well over here in the UK where rainfall and humidity is obviously higher, although I am on course for a 14 inch annual rainfall year here. Summer humidity has been in the 30% by day and 70% by night range here. And it has been a cool, wet summer compared to recent summers, in the southeast of England, which have been drier,  that have actually seen severe summer droughts (2020 saw more of a spring drought). Even still, Filifera does pretty well here still, as the pictures above show. Even inland at 51N.

Robusta is a bit more touchy, as they don't take as low temperatures, obviously, although my Robusta came through last winter untouched. My lowest was 26F. But if a polar vortex was to hit, as it occasionally does, the Filifera would probably survive, whereas the Robusta would probably be toast. At least that is what I would think. Maybe the Robusta would still come back after being defoliated. There are quite a few decent sized Robusta's around the London area, with 10ft + trunks. But I am outside of the London urban heat island myself, so I don't know.

What temperature do Filifera get defoliated at and what temperature would you say their survival limit is? Again, my biggest one is potted and has survived unscathed on my patio for the past two winters. As have my Filibusta hybrids. It was a smallish Filifera seedling 3 years ago... 

 

Edited by UK_Palms
Spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GottmitAlex
25 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

. Even inland at 51N.

Robusta is a bit more touchy, as they don't take as low temperatures, obviously, although my Robusta came through last winter untouched. My lowest was 26F. But if a polar vortex was to hit, as it occasionally does, the Filifera would probably survive, whereas the Robusta would probably be toast. At least that is what I would think. Maybe the Robusta would still come back after being defoliated. There are quite a few decent sized Robusta's around the London area, with 10ft + trunks. But I am outside of the London urban heat island myself, so I don't know.

 

 

Here's a Robusta in England!

https://youtu.be/DW_hk7G4SfA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahosey01
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

Right, thanks for educating me on the matter. I wouldn't know otherwise. I'm just taking stuff into account/consideration, but obviously I have never visited these places so I wouldn't know, ultimately. So I am mostly going on assumptions. It helps to have a knowledgeable source, who has visited the palms in person, and knows the area, to offer feedback on their location and environment. And the extremes of temperature that they may endure. I am thoroughly intrigued though, since Washingtonia Filifera's are one of my favourite palms and I am interested in hearing about them in general, especially in their native environment. I just hope I can visit their native populations myself in the coming years. 

They clearly must be quite adaptable however, to grow well over here in the UK where rainfall and humidity is obviously higher, although I am on course for a 14 inch annual rainfall year here. Summer humidity has been in the 30% by day and 70% by night range here. And it has been a cool, wet summer compared to recent summers, in the southeast of England, which have been drier,  that have actually seen severe summer droughts (2020 saw more of a spring drought). Even still, Filifera does pretty well here still, as the pictures above show. Even inland at 51N.

Robusta is a bit more touchy, as they don't take as low temperatures, obviously, although my Robusta came through last winter untouched. My lowest was 26F. But if a polar vortex was to hit, as it occasionally does, the Filifera would probably survive, whereas the Robusta would probably be toast. At least that is what I would think. Maybe the Robusta would still come back after being defoliated. There are quite a few decent sized Robusta's around the London area, with 10ft + trunks. But I am outside of the London urban heat island myself, so I don't know.

What temperature do Filifera get defoliated at and what temperature would you say their survival limit is? Again, my biggest one is potted and has survived unscathed on my patio for the past two winters. As have my Filibusta hybrids. It was a smallish Filifera seedling 3 years ago... 

 

That's hard to say because I don't know what UK humidity levels are like.  Here, where it's very dry, they'll survive mornings below 20F without defoliating.  But keep in mind the way overnight lows work here in the desert.  Basically, the temperature will drop consistently all the way until first light.  Then, for a few minutes in the morning, you'll be at your overnight low as the sun begins to crest the horizon.  Once the sun hits the spot your thermometer is, however, you're immediately back up a few degrees and keep climbing until that day's high, which usually comes around 4:00 PM where I live.

Edited by ahosey01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UK_Palms
10 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

Here's a Robusta in England!

https://youtu.be/DW_hk7G4SfA

Crazy the snowstorms that Robusta has seen and survived, Alex. But that is in Essex, outside of the London urban heat island, which maybe saw 25-20F a few times over the past 15 years...

Here is a few Robusta's from the London area which barely see 32F each winter... interesting to see what they might look like 5 years from now.... the CIDP's are exploding in growth as well, like literally putting on 2-3 foot of trunk each year. Some absolute mutants popping up in recent years. These are just Robusta and Filibusta hybrids. It seems we need another decade or so to grow these palms on to CA levels...

washingtonia-filifera-1.thumb.jpg.a849e6ac8f37a83bf28f8ec8ae7316ec.jpg

2094410525_Washie8.jpg.f63d6e9004aca9f56b8b83ce97acef51.jpg

2094546454_Washie13.jpg.0536deef360e17f3cd723b8e49d1c511.jpg

312191085_Washie14.jpg.7a374a4ee7cc153c513ed0d65596c9bf.jpg

7f10c81dcec2f7ea69af7ab78150906d.jpg.8e4849d6b21ac09e0012ea28a7ab3231.jpg

washiethorpebay.jpg.106642c65135f47dd8cda7112b02b02a.jpg

34593798_Washie15.jpg.2b3d77161dd0b84e95f99448d0dbc217.jpg

330151222_washie10.thumb.jpg.7b2b0e962895e3782cf951278a77ac42.jpg

133753714.jpg.471c50171d806e5a287c4a383d3a6239.jpg

washingtonia-filifera-e1326973398301.thumb.jpg.5b036e4a4a2714d982f22442dcd10927.jpg]]

Washingtonia-robustSt.-James-.jpg.4a624624998945a81f92bb171392dd09.jpg

St. James Park Robusta's 2018....????? (above) :greenthumb:

unnamed.png.154d559f50a53f7a8669dab8dacbefd4.png

2016-07-25-13_30_54.thumb.jpg.58000e2c9c7294814de382cba0296a48.jpg

That last 2-3 pictures are a decade or so old... so not sure of the exact location of those Robusta's around London, however I would look them up... but there's quite a few which will be becoming more and more predominant in years to come.... but either way, Washies thrive in the dry(ish) southeast of the UK... as the picture's show....

Edit - one, or more, of these pictures show a 'Filibusta' hybrid from Chelsea Physic gardens in 2014... can't be bothered to look up a new, more recent update due to the virus lockdown.... 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UK_Palms

Here's a Robusta/Filibusta going for it on the south coast...

This guy has fruiting banana plants in what I would consider a 'subtropical' climate at 50/51N...

Washie.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...