Interesting microclimate potential in North Florida

[CodyORB]

While browsing this area on Google Earth I found 3 pretty big lakes (the largest, Sampson, is 1.8 miles in diameter) in a cluster just SW of Starke, FL (officially zone 9A) Along with the help of an deep existing forestry canopy, there should be some excellent temp moderation and frost protection here! It reminds me of the Belle Isle area in Orlando that often gets mentioned here. In the specific image on top, the best protection I believe would be the southeast shore of Sampson, though I also spy a small peninsula on the eastern shore of Rowell that could be the golden ticket!

Since having to move to this marginal region I've been curious about how far I could zone-push trees like the R. regia, A. cunninghamiana, B. alfredii etc. this far inland at this latitude. I know of a handful of established royals in St. Augustine and apparently even Jacksonville (roughly 40-50 miles northeast) that may have made it through even 2010 with the help of the ICW, a river/estuary actually narrower than lake Sampson!

Unfortunately those 30-40 miles do make quite a difference; while St. Augustine's airport dipped to 26 and 25 in 2010 and 2018 respectively, the more inland GNV recorded 17 and 22. It's likely no good positioning by the water and shielding of the forest would boost a 17 night to the 25 or so a regia/cunninghamiana/alfredii would (even then, barely) make it through.

While this wouldn't be a long term success story if I decided to go out ninja-planting crownshafts in the middle of nowhere and by a lake that could be a set for a summer-themed horror movie, I've honestly gotten so tired of all these Sabals and whatnot it may just slightly be worth the effort  (psst psst RPS bulk orders are surprisingly affordable...)

Edited July 11, 2020 by CodyORB

[kinzyjr]

A few things to try:  Ask some of the locals what their lows were in Jan 2010 and 2018.  If they were 25F+ you'll know that the area has some long term potential.  The NOAA data from NWS has the following data:

https://w2.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=jax

For a little motivation, CFPACS and FCPS held a joint meeting in Fall 2018 at Dr. John Rossi's residence in Hastings, FL.  Here is a link to photos of his property:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/58209-the-garden-of-dr-john-rossi-hastings-fl/

[CodyORB]

7 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

A few things to try:  Ask some of the locals what their lows were in Jan 2010 and 2018.  If they were 25F+ you'll know that the area has some long term potential.  The NOAA data from NWS has the following data:

https://w2.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=jax

For a little motivation, CFPACS and FCPS held a joint meeting in Fall 2018 at Dr. John Rossi's residence in Hastings, FL.  Here is a link to photos of his property:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/58209-the-garden-of-dr-john-rossi-hastings-fl/

Wow, what an incredible garden Dr. Rossi has! The bottle palm and they way he warms it 

Nice to see an official weather station in Starke too.

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, CodyORB said:

Wow, what an incredible garden Dr. Rossi has! The bottle palm and they way he warms it 

Nice to see an official weather station in Starke too.

I talked with Dr. Rossi about a month ago.  He told me that if I thought the garden was impressive then to wait until the next time I get to come up there because he had added something like 200+ more species.  The video David Casella made was really good.

[Jimbean]

Perhaps look around the isthmus that is wedged between two lakes, towards the north east shore of Lake Sampson.  It looks like Lake Crosby is close enough to provide a buffer, similar to the effect of the Lake Placid area. 

[RedRabbit]

SSE side of Lake Sampson is probably best. These lakes aren’t that big so I’m not sure how great the microclimate is in between them. For that reason it’s probably best to just be on the largest one. 

[palmsOrl]

There must be some remarkable microclimates up there, with the photos of large royals, Archontophoenix and other tropical and warm subtropical palms.  Though I consider Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, or at least the ecotype I grew, to be 9b.

With my particular taste in palms and other tropical plants, however, to do it all over, I would quit trying to zone push in the northern two-thirds of the state altogether and look for an affordable area in South Florida (that might be the most challenging part).  Then, I would still have my zone push challenges like Cyrtostachys, Areca macrocalyx and breadfruit, but most everything would thrive, given supplemental irrigration as needed.

But then, maybe, just maybe, I would get down there, have all my palms and other plants, I would enjoy them, but I would eventually realize that what I really enjoyed most was the challenge and would get bored and want to grow Japanese maples, conifers and alpine Nepenthes.  Who knows, just food for thought.

[CodyORB]

On 7/14/2020 at 8:55 AM, palmsOrl said:

There must be some remarkable microclimates up there, with the photos of large royals, Archontophoenix and other tropical and warm subtropical palms.  Though I consider Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, or at least the ecotype I grew, to be 9b.

With my particular taste in palms and other tropical plants, however, to do it all over, I would quit trying to zone push in the northern two-thirds of the state altogether and look for an affordable area in South Florida (that might be the most challenging part).  Then, I would still have my zone push challenges like Cyrtostachys, Areca macrocalyx and breadfruit, but most everything would thrive, given supplemental irrigration as needed.

But then, maybe, just maybe, I would get down there, have all my palms and other plants, I would enjoy them, but I would eventually realize that what I really enjoyed most was the challenge and would get bored and want to grow Japanese maples, conifers and alpine Nepenthes.  Who knows, just food for thought.

Ditto for the last paragraph, it’ll get mighty expensive (on top of the SoFlo costs) when you get tired of all the royals and whatnot that were once a novelty and think you need the truly exotic stuff to stand out!

Then Arecaceae gets old, then the cycads kick in and you’ll dump $6,000 in no time on some Encephalartos 

Edited July 17, 2020 by CodyORB

[chinandega81]

My thought would be how deep are those lakes and what are their winter time temperatures? I know Lake Okeechobee gets down to around 60 after the cold spells since it is so shallow. I am not sure how cold those lakes get...if they are deeper perhaps they remain more constant. If they cool off consistently below 50 I don't think the warming affect would be enough to create a microclimate that would support royals.

If I lived in N Florida I would look to spread Royal along the eastern shore of the St. John's River. But if you could give the royals reasonable are and protection by those lake it would be interesting to see. Maybe even donate one to a homeowner there and they could possibly baby it for you and give you updates?

[CodyORB]

9 hours ago, chinandega81 said:

My thought would be how deep are those lakes and what are their winter time temperatures? I know Lake Okeechobee gets down to around 60 after the cold spells since it is so shallow. I am not sure how cold those lakes get...if they are deeper perhaps they remain more constant. If they cool off consistently below 50 I don't think the warming affect would be enough to create a microclimate that would support royals.

If I lived in N Florida I would look to spread Royal along the eastern shore of the St. John's River. But if you could give the royals reasonable are and protection by those lake it would be interesting to see. Maybe even donate one to a homeowner there and they could possibly baby it for you and give you updates?

Good to know the lake depth. Lake Sampson is 13 feet at its deepest, which isn't any better than Okeechobee. I doubt water temps will stay above 50 or so during a deep cold snap like in 2010. 

What spices this situation up is that I have a relative who lives within a quarter mile of the lakes. It would be interesting to see how far inland the moderation lasts if I decide to plant there where I know it'll best be taken care of. As others have mentioned perhaps next winter I can "scout" the area with temp stations, including the peninsula on the east shore of Lake Rowell that I have my eyes on for "ninja planting".

Edited July 18, 2020 by CodyORB

[chinandega81]

My guess is that the kind of moderation you would need, if it even exists, would be along the immediate waterfront where the rind road is. Mainly on the SE shore. I think once you cross that ring road the effects would dissipate almost immediately.

 

[NickJames]

The Jacksonville royals are actually along the St. Johns River, on the eastern shore. The St. Johns is immediately to their northwest. The river does maintain salinity at this point, but is primarily blackwater south of there. 

[ruskinPalms]

I would suggest ninja planting some majesty palms on the shores of those lakes. Not quite crown shafted but still self cleaning, neat palms that love water. And I think they can take fairly low freezes into the low 20s F. There are some long term survivors in New Orleans I’ve seen on this forum before. Honestly, I can’t think of any true crown shaft palms that would make it there more than 5 years at a time, but if that is ok for you then you are on the right track with A. Cunninghamiana. I have the same philosophy about coconuts here, enjoy them while they are alive!

[CodyORB]

15 hours ago, NickJames said:

The Jacksonville royals are actually along the St. Johns River, on the eastern shore. The St. Johns is immediately to their northwest. The river does maintain salinity at this point, but is primarily blackwater south of there. 

Thank you for the clarification!