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Jason S.

Older Fronds Turing Dark Brown

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Jason S.

In a shaded section of my yard I have some Ivory Canes, Kings, Shaving Brush, and Flame Throwers. Older fronds are turning a dark brown and dying prematurely. I pulled back the leaf base sheath of one of the Kings and did not see any pink rot or other fungus. I live in central coastal San Diego, CA 92122. I deep water them once a week. I have clay soil. Any idea what would be causing this?

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-2 brian

Just a guess, but those look like eucalyptus leaves covering the ground there. I know the leaves leach a toxin in the surrounding soil that makes it hard for other plants to grow. (Eucalyptus don’t share well) don’t know if that could be the cause but maybe keeping the euc leaves cleaned up and spread a layer of compost/mulch instead? Good luck.

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Jason S.

There seems to be conflicting reports as to whether the eucalyptus leaves are harmful or not, but this is the only area of my yard where my palms are exhibiting this behavior, so I'll rake them up. The rootball area of the palms have a layer of compost topped with mulch already, but I intended to compost and mulch the whole area eventually. Thanks for the reply.

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joe_OC

I have several kentias and Rhopies under my eucalyptus.  Never had a problem.  
 

For me, this is the time of year where my palms shed their older fronds.  How many fronds are the palms holding?  
 

Pink rot is a secondary infection.  
 

Have you checked the soil?  Sometimes dripping systems get clogged/damaged and the palms are not getting enough water.

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Jason S.

I use a moisture meter to check the soil periodically throughout the week. It never falls below "moist" in at least one area surrounding the palm root balls. I hand water each palm in this area because I haven't connected and tubed the station yet. I dig a ring around the palm pushing the mulch outward, turn on the hose to a drizzle, and walk away. It takes me about half a day to water this section. The palms are young, but the kings are only holding a couple fronds each with healthy new fronds emerging that haven't opened yet. Some of the others are fairing better, but it seems like everything in this area started to slowly degrade over the course of about a month. All palms have only been in the ground about 6 months now. I fertilized for the first time last weekend using Jobe's organic palm fertilizer, kelp meal, and a layer of compost.   

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Jillian
1 hour ago, Jason S. said:

I use a moisture meter to check the soil periodically throughout the week. It never falls below "moist" in at least one area surrounding the palm root balls. I hand water each palm in this area because I haven't connected and tubed the station yet. I dig a ring around the palm pushing the mulch outward, turn on the hose to a drizzle, and walk away. It takes me about half a day to water this section. The palms are young, but the kings are only holding a couple fronds each with healthy new fronds emerging that haven't opened yet. Some of the others are fairing better, but it seems like everything in this area started to slowly degrade over the course of about a month. All palms have only been in the ground about 6 months now. I fertilized for the first time last weekend using Jobe's organic palm fertilizer, kelp meal, and a layer of compost.   

Hi, I’m brand new to this forum. We have 12 king palms. Some do better then others. We have gone thru many struggles in the past 6 years with them that were planted straight from the nursery. We have learned that King Palms love water. In the past I’ve have Green Thumb and Master Gardner’s tell me they were over watered, so we cut back and everything got worse. We have finally learned they love water. We just had a heat wave too. I too use a moisture meter and for a king palm, moist isn’t enough. I think you need to water it more often, especially at only 6 months old. We have clay soil also. As soon as the rains stopped I couldn’t believe how quickly my palms changed. 

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-2 brian

http://lindachisari.com/Articles/LifeWithEucalyptus.htm

here is a link to an article by a landscape designer that Might interest you. Being that the palms are recently planted they might just be unable to hold onto a full crown while they are trying to get established amount the aggressive  Euc roots. Also if the leaf litter has been allowed to break down in that area for over time in the past there is a possibility that the soil make up is having a greater effect on the young just planted palms that haven’t established a deep mature root system yet. I’m all for leaving leaf litter in planters to break down naturally just not sure I’d do so with Euc’s. Just to be safe. Hopefully as long as it’s still pushing new growth they’ll get established  and fill out. Keep em really well watered and I think you’ll be alright. 

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DoomsDave

@Jason S. maybe take a picture from further back.

It might be useful to see the gestalt as the Germans like to say, the big picture.

Your first picture looks like a perfectly normal abscising leaf to me.

We do want to help, and welcome! We'll do all we can to help with your palm addiction,

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Chris Chance

Looks to me like it possibly has some bud rot. Wouldn't hurt do some peroxide treatments. I've seen them die like that pretty quickly. 

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Jason S.

@DoomsDave This is the area that is having the problems. Thanks. 

 

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Merlyn2220
35 minutes ago, Jason S. said:

@DoomsDave This is the area that is having the problems. Thanks.

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It's a little difficult to tell on this photo, but it looks like the larger palm on the right is planted really deep.  Is the growing point / root initiation zone actually buried underground on that one?

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Jason S.

The heel is partially buried, but is mostly mulch.

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Merlyn2220

This is probably the best planting article I've run across.  It's not recommended to bury the heel on palms, but leaving just the top inch above ground is probably okay.  I don't have a lot of experience with heeled palms to say for sure.  But I do know that it is not recommended to ever cover the base of the palm with mulch.  Doing so can lead to bud rot and other types of fungal infections.  This might be one of the issues you are running into, the other could be the palms are just "eating" existing fronds to power root growth.  I'm not sure about that.  http://www.marriedtoplants.com/palms/palm-tree-growing-tips-mounding/

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Jason S.

I removed the mulch and the heels are now poking out a bit. Thanks for the article.  

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DoomsDave

@Jason S. thanks for the pictures!

You mentioned that you have clay soil. Has it been amended? How much and for how long do you water once a week?

I have clay, too, and water less often but a while.

I'd not mess with a meter in the ground outside, or even inside. You don't need them.

I suspect, as an initial matter that your plants might not appreciate root competition from the Canary Island dates over the walls.

 

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Jason S.

Where I have 0.9 gph drip tubing I run 1 - 1.2 hours. The palms that are having trouble I am watering by hand. I create a moat surrounding the palm, drop the hose in, let it trickle, and walk away. Before today I don't think I was running enough water to them. When I planted I dug wider and deeper. I used organic palm soil, earth worm castings, and a variety of other amendments. I topped them all off with earth worm castings as well. Last weekend I fertilized and added compost. I haven't amended the whole planting beds though. 

Edited by Jason S.

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DoomsDave
28 minutes ago, Jason S. said:

Where I have 0.9 gph drip tubing I run 1 - 1.2 hours. The palms that are having trouble I am watering by hand. I create a moat surrounding the palm, drop the hose in, let it trickle, and walk away. Before today I don't think I was running enough water to them. When I planted I dug wider and deeper. I used organic palm soil, earth worm castings, and a variety of other amendments. I topped them all off with earth worm castings as well. Last weekend I fertilized and added compost. I haven't amended the whole planting beds though. 

Is your clay nasty brick like clay? Did you dig down deep?

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Jason S.
6 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Is your clay nasty brick like clay? Did you dig down deep?

Yes. It is layers of light gray. I had to use a jack hammer to break it up for 24" box Kentia. For digging 15 gallon container holes I can get by with a pick axe. Planting smaller containers usually only requires a shovel. 

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DoomsDave
20 hours ago, Jason S. said:

Yes. It is layers of light gray. I had to use a jack hammer to break it up for 24" box Kentia. For digging 15 gallon container holes I can get by with a pick axe. Planting smaller containers usually only requires a shovel. 

Hmm.

Clay is great soil in many ways. It holds water and nutrients well.

The only soil better is silt, like that of the Nile River Valley, or, supposedly, the flatlands of Los Angeles County in South Central, or in San Bernardino County, in the Santa Ana river floodplain. That last I experienced for myself.

Clay has to be worked a lot to get the best from it in my experience, but it's so worth it.

I'm going to give advice you might hate me for:

I'd dig up an area where you want to plant palms to a depth of about two feet, by maybe four feet and maybe four feet long. It will be hard work. But, do that, pile the dirt to the side, and bury LOTS of organic stuff, like grass clippings, twigs, dead leaves, palm leaves, pine needles, bad food from the fridge/freezer, and fill the pit to the top, then add about another foot of stuff. Then heave in about a foot of the dug out dirt, repeat the process. You'll end up with what looks like a grave. Water the area heavily and wait. Over time, months, the organic stuff will decay, and the surface will flatten down a bit, and when the time comes for planting it'll be a lot easier to plant in.

I did that to about 500 square feet of area, and I only had to do it once. A lot of work, but so worth it.

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Jason S.
1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

Hmm.

Clay is great soil in many ways. It holds water and nutrients well.

The only soil better is silt, like that of the Nile River Valley, or, supposedly, the flatlands of Los Angeles County in South Central, or in San Bernardino County, in the Santa Ana river floodplain. That last I experienced for myself.

Clay has to be worked a lot to get the best from it in my experience, but it's so worth it.

I'm going to give advice you might hate me for:

I'd dig up an area where you want to plant palms to a depth of about two feet, by maybe four feet and maybe four feet long. It will be hard work. But, do that, pile the dirt to the side, and bury LOTS of organic stuff, like grass clippings, twigs, dead leaves, palm leaves, pine needles, bad food from the fridge/freezer, and fill the pit to the top, then add about another foot of stuff. Then heave in about a foot of the dug out dirt, repeat the process. You'll end up with what looks like a grave. Water the area heavily and wait. Over time, months, the organic stuff will decay, and the surface will flatten down a bit, and when the time comes for planting it'll be a lot easier to plant in.

I did that to about 500 square feet of area, and I only had to do it once. A lot of work, but so worth it.

Thanks. I was intending on picking up some compost from the Miramar Greenery (Landfill) and covering the area. I can still break up the soil around what I have planted so far and do something similar with the compost. The area is many, many years from being fully planted and mature, so I have plenty of time to prepare. There are still a few areas in which I haven't started planted yet, so I can do that in those areas though before I plant anything. Thanks again for the advice.

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DoomsDave
55 minutes ago, Jason S. said:

Thanks. I was intending on picking up some compost from the Miramar Greenery (Landfill) and covering the area. I can still break up the soil around what I have planted so far and do something similar with the compost. The area is many, many years from being fully planted and mature, so I have plenty of time to prepare. There are still a few areas in which I haven't started planted yet, so I can do that in those areas though before I plant anything. Thanks again for the advice.

Dude, get in there and dig and dig and dig.

Don't just "cover" "inundate" "drown" etc. are better, piles to 5 feet high, it'll all rot down.

It was easy15+ years ago for me. Now, not so much, to dig but too easy to plant . . . .

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Jim in Los Altos

To me they look a bit underwatered. Some species, like Archontophoenix are nearly aquatic plants. They grow best in WET soil, really wet. Chambeyronia, Rhopalostylis, and Howea are also water hogs. It’s nearly impossible to over water them but very easy to underwater them. I personally would never let a week go without watering my palms in the summer especially since they compete with each other for any moisture in their vicinity. 

Edited by Jim in Los Altos
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tim_brissy_13
3 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

To me they look a bit underwatered. Some species, like Archontophoenix are nearly aquatic plants. They grow best in WET soil, really wet. Chambeyronia, Rhopalostylis, and Howea are also water hogs. It’s nearly impossible to over water them but very easy to underwater them. I personally would never let a week go without watering my palms in the summer especially since they compete with each other for any moisture in their vicinity. 

I agree. How long ago were they planted? From experience, Archontophoenix and Rhopalostylis need constant soaking after planting otherwise they will lose fronds prematurely like you’ve shown. Even when we’ll watered, some species will slightly decline while they are establishing before their root system expands. I’d bet Pinanga coronata is the same given its general requirement, but I haven’t grown it before. 

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Jason S.
5 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

To me they look a bit underwatered. Some species, like Archontophoenix are nearly aquatic plants. They grow best in WET soil, really wet. Chambeyronia, Rhopalostylis, and Howea are also water hogs. It’s nearly impossible to over water them but very easy to underwater them. I personally would never let a week go without watering my palms in the summer especially since they compete with each other for any moisture in their vicinity. 

 

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I agree. How long ago were they planted? From experience, Archontophoenix and Rhopalostylis need constant soaking after planting otherwise they will lose fronds prematurely like you’ve shown. Even when we’ll watered, some species will slightly decline while they are establishing before their root system expands. I’d bet Pinanga coronata is the same given its general requirement, but I haven’t grown it before. 

They have been in the ground for about six months now. When I first planted them I was watering everyday, then every other day, and so on. I started watering once a week because when I pulled back the mulch and compost it was still wet. The water meter still registered as "moist" in at least one section around each palm when I checked on the sixth day as well . Although, the eucalyptus might be sucking more water from lower down than where I can measure. I'll add in another watering day and see if things improve. Thanks. 

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DoomsDave

One of the huge problems with clay is that while it holds water, plant roots can't penetrate it. So, if you stick a moisture meter in it, it will say moist but the plant roots can't get in.

I think, @Jason S., you might have, in effect, planted some of your plants in clay pots in the ground full of potting soil. The paradox is the potting soil dries out fast, the clay doesn't.

I'd go so far as to recommend digging things out, and doing the pit treatment (with already well-rotted organics, bagged or on-site) to the whole area, if you can. Or maybe half or two thirds at a time. Mix in everything. Plain organic stuff won't work over the long run, because it decays and leaves no place for the roots. Mixing organics with the clay will solve that problem.

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Jason S.
4 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

One of the huge problems with clay is that while it holds water, plant roots can't penetrate it. So, if you stick a moisture meter in it, it will say moist but the plant roots can't get in.

I think, @Jason S., you might have, in effect, planted some of your plants in clay pots in the ground full of potting soil. The paradox is the potting soil dries out fast, the clay doesn't.

I'd go so far as to recommend digging things out, and doing the pit treatment (with already well-rotted organics, bagged or on-site) to the whole area, if you can. Or maybe half or two thirds at a time. Mix in everything. Plain organic stuff won't work over the long run, because it decays and leaves no place for the roots. Mixing organics with the clay will solve that problem.

Please suggest an easier solution. :-)

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DoomsDave
1 minute ago, Jason S. said:

Please suggest an easier solution. :-)

I'd do all possible to break up that nasty clay as much as possible.

I know how tough that is, which, cruelly and paradoxically, makes the task that much more vital. If you don't, your plants will just struggle and not thrive.

I applaud your clear concern and willingness to be a good "daddy" to your plants! :greenthumb: Seriously!

In a prior life, I was a garden shop manager in Moreno Valley, CA, and the hardest but most important task to a nice garden (and happy customers and repeat sales) was prepping the soil in recent construction sites that were people's new houses so that the plants would grow. It wasn't easy.

Some thoughts:

Instead of going down two feet, go down only 18" or one foot, but be thorough. Trust me, one foot is much MUCH less arduous than two.

Or, start on one end of your bed and make extra-extra-large holes mixed with well-rotted organics, back-filled with the mixture, re-plant the plants in that. Make each hole at least three or four times the size of the pot the plant's in for the smaller ones, maybe half again for the big ones.

Experiment a bit with different ways of making the hard clay easier to dig. What I used to do was literally chip out a shallow basin on the surface with a pickaxe and keep filling, re-filling, re-re-filling with water, letting it sink, repeat repeat etc. and soften the soil, till I was able to dig a shovel's depth of soil. Then hup-hup, dig out, then fill with more water. Experimentation in your situation will show how much; be warned it might take a while. You might literally have a situation where you water, soak, etc., on, say, Monday, then dig on Tuesday, or maybe even Wednesday. But you're digging for the decades, or at least years to come. And, you'll get exercise, you might be missing.

DON'T just hack away with a pickaxe, except to make the initial shallow basins to start. I wouldn't mess with power equipment, unless you have some in your hip pocket. Hand tools work best, because they're there.

 

The pictures you posted above show no weed growth. That means you have tough dirt.

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Jason S.
3 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

I'd do all possible to break up that nasty clay as much as possible.

I know how tough that is, which, cruelly and paradoxically, makes the task that much more vital. If you don't, your plants will just struggle and not thrive.

I applaud your clear concern and willingness to be a good "daddy" to your plants! :greenthumb: Seriously!

In a prior life, I was a garden shop manager in Moreno Valley, CA, and the hardest but most important task to a nice garden (and happy customers and repeat sales) was prepping the soil in recent construction sites that were people's new houses so that the plants would grow. It wasn't easy.

Some thoughts:

Instead of going down two feet, go down only 18" or one foot, but be thorough. Trust me, one foot is much MUCH less arduous than two.

Or, start on one end of your bed and make extra-extra-large holes mixed with well-rotted organics, back-filled with the mixture, re-plant the plants in that. Make each hole at least three or four times the size of the pot the plant's in for the smaller ones, maybe half again for the big ones.

Experiment a bit with different ways of making the hard clay easier to dig. What I used to do was literally chip out a shallow basin on the surface with a pickaxe and keep filling, re-filling, re-re-filling with water, letting it sink, repeat repeat etc. and soften the soil, till I was able to dig a shovel's depth of soil. Then hup-hup, dig out, then fill with more water. Experimentation in your situation will show how much; be warned it might take a while. You might literally have a situation where you water, soak, etc., on, say, Monday, then dig on Tuesday, or maybe even Wednesday. But you're digging for the decades, or at least years to come. And, you'll get exercise, you might be missing.

DON'T just hack away with a pickaxe, except to make the initial shallow basins to start. I wouldn't mess with power equipment, unless you have some in your hip pocket. Hand tools work best, because they're there.

 

The pictures you posted above show no weed growth. That means you have tough dirt.

Thanks. I actually don't mind a bit of hard work, so this isn't a death sentence for me. The longer it takes the better. I don't want to run out of projects any time soon.

I have a canyon that I want to terrace, so any excess dirt that needs relocating is a plus. I am already moving a ton of dirt down there from all the holes I have dug thus far.

The palms in the front of the house seem to be fairing better, but the previous owner had a bunch of trees and bushes that the flipper ripped out (we bought the house 8/19). The soil in those areas doesn't seem to be causing any issues because I think the tree roots broke up the soil down a few feet. I know because I haven't dug a single hole in the front where I wasn't sawing or cutting a root. Some as large as 8" in diameter. 

Thanks again for taking the time to reply and all the advice.

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DoomsDave
12 minutes ago, Jason S. said:

Thanks. I actually don't mind a bit of hard work, so this isn't a death sentence for me. The longer it takes the better. I don't want to run out of projects any time soon.

I have a canyon that I want to terrace, so any excess dirt that needs relocating is a plus. I am already moving a ton of dirt down there from all the holes I have dug thus far.

The palms in the front of the house seem to be fairing better, but the previous owner had a bunch of trees and bushes that the flipper ripped out (we bought the house 8/19). The soil in those areas doesn't seem to be causing any issues because I think the tree roots broke up the soil down a few feet. I know because I haven't dug a single hole in the front where I wasn't sawing or cutting a root. Some as large as 8" in diameter. 

Thanks again for taking the time to reply and all the advice.

Don't move the dirt, unless you absolutely must. Just add to it, mix stuff with it. Keep it where it is. It sometimes seems like you have to move it, but you usually don't.

You'll be amazed at how organic stuff just literally evaporates after a while. A pile of manure, or dead leaves that's 2 feet deep will rot down to less than an inch in no time. If you want to terrace, there's other ways, a different subject, maybe start a new thread?

You'll be able to have a killer palm garden, you're in just the right spot. So many Palm Talk legends right near by.

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joe_OC

I would suggest mulching 6-8" with organic horse manure compost.  You need to add organics back into your clay soil.  The compost will retain water better.  Worms, fungi, will start to rebuild your soil.  Keep mulching with compost and in a few years, you will have loomy soil.  Make sure to leave room around each palm to not rot them out.  GL

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DoomsDave
12 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

To me they look a bit underwatered. Some species, like Archontophoenix are nearly aquatic plants. They grow best in WET soil, really wet. Chambeyronia, Rhopalostylis, and Howea are also water hogs. It’s nearly impossible to over water them but very easy to underwater them. I personally would never let a week go without watering my palms in the summer especially since they compete with each other for any moisture in their vicinity. 

You raise a good point, germane here.

I've got a garden full of water hawgs, and, to prevent bankruptcy, I have to water judiciously.

One section gets tons of water, the Chambeys, because they're Chambeys and they've got precious little plants under them. The Archies don't get nearly as much, but with plenty of mulching they do perfectly fine.

On the other hand, spacing also helps. When you VelezcizeTM, you get a lot of plants in one place that drink a lot of water. Further spacing can help a lot, especially with thirsty things.

Dang, gonna have to visit you up there in the Bay Area one of these days and see that legendary Jungle of the North for myself. . . . .

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Johnny Palmseed
6 hours ago, Jason S. said:

Please suggest an easier solution. :-)

I laughed when I read this but I feel your pain. I have been digging out an area in the yard to make a nice planting bed. I am almost done but it has taken several months in my spare time. It has grown from about 10’X10’X1’ to about 20’X20’X2’, as well as the surrounding grass area which will be about 200-300 additional sq.ft. @ 6-8”. I had previously removed the grass to redo the sprinklers and add topsoil to help the area but I have decided to dig down around the bed to amend deeper than just the topsoil since the palm roots will not be bound by the bed line. My soil is terrible but in the opposite way. I have what appears to be mostly sand but is actually a mixture of sand, crushed coquina rock, crushed and whole shells, coquina boulders, and my personal favorite - buried construction debris. Which includes concrete blocks, pool tiles, beer cans, aggregate and slop wash. I always wondered why nothing grew well in this area except my Pseudophoenix Sargentii. I would buy my new palm, dig my hole, remove the garbage, add some amendments and plant away. The plants would grow for a while but always looked unhealthy and/or died. I had the soil tested and they said the ph was difficult to test due to the lack of any type of loamy soil. They estimated the ph at 8.4. I have removed all the junk down to small shells and rocks by making a straining device from hardware cloth. I amended with topsoil and composted cow manure and I got some Tiger 90 sulphur supplement to bring down the ph. My wife thinks I’m crazy as well as some neighbors I’m sure. But when I finish, I’m confident my plants will grow much better.

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Jason S.
24 minutes ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

I laughed when I read this but I feel your pain. I have been digging out an area in the yard to make a nice planting bed. I am almost done but it has taken several months in my spare time. It has grown from about 10’X10’X1’ to about 20’X20’X2’, as well as the surrounding grass area which will be about 200-300 additional sq.ft. @ 6-8”. I had previously removed the grass to redo the sprinklers and add topsoil to help the area but I have decided to dig down around the bed to amend deeper than just the topsoil since the palm roots will not be bound by the bed line. My soil is terrible but in the opposite way. I have what appears to be mostly sand but is actually a mixture of sand, crushed coquina rock, crushed and whole shells, coquina boulders, and my personal favorite - buried construction debris. Which includes concrete blocks, pool tiles, beer cans, aggregate and slop wash. I always wondered why nothing grew well in this area except my Pseudophoenix Sargentii. I would buy my new palm, dig my hole, remove the garbage, add some amendments and plant away. The plants would grow for a while but always looked unhealthy and/or died. I had the soil tested and they said the ph was difficult to test due to the lack of any type of loamy soil. They estimated the ph at 8.4. I have removed all the junk down to small shells and rocks by making a straining device from hardware cloth. I amended with topsoil and composted cow manure and I got some Tiger 90 sulphur supplement to bring down the ph. My wife thinks I’m crazy as well as some neighbors I’m sure. But when I finish, I’m confident my plants will grow much better.

Wow. That is insane. I admire you dedication. I thought I had it bad when I hit a couple chunks of concrete from buried construction debris. I had no idea that they did this until I dug. My biggest issues have been the rock like clay and roots. I don't hit the clay until about 2ft down, so it isn't that bad. I slowly tear it all up though. I just have to move a giant pile of dirt first.

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Johnny Palmseed

Lol. Insane is what my wife calls me. And I have to agree somewhat. I have carted off probably a couple tons of debris and 10 yards of delivered topsoil from the driveway to the opposite side backyard. I have shoveled thousands of pounds of dirt, sifted out debris and mixed in amendments in a large wheelbarrow. After all that, I still need to plant the bed and sod the area around it. And the daytime highs are now in the mid 90s so I’m pretty limited on my endurance. I started the project without really understanding or limiting the scope and detail and so it got out of hand. It was hard to limit the depth of the dig since I could always dig out “just one more rock”. That was what truly made the project insane. If I had stopped with my original goal, I would have been done but it would have bothered me to know that it wasn’t done right. I’m looking forward to finishing and planting it up. Check out my anchors. 

4A4004AB-48BE-4496-95C9-B1DED93431DC.jpeg

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Jim in Los Altos
10 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

You raise a good point, germane here.

I've got a garden full of water hawgs, and, to prevent bankruptcy, I have to water judiciously.

One section gets tons of water, the Chambeys, because they're Chambeys and they've got precious little plants under them. The Archies don't get nearly as much, but with plenty of mulching they do perfectly fine.

On the other hand, spacing also helps. When you VelezcizeTM, you get a lot of plants in one place that drink a lot of water. Further spacing can help a lot, especially with thirsty things.

Dang, gonna have to visit you up there in the Bay Area one of these days and see that legendary Jungle of the North for myself. . . . .

I’d love to have you here, Dave. If you’re ever up this way, let me know!

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Jason S.
12 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Lol. Insane is what my wife calls me. And I have to agree somewhat. I have carted off probably a couple tons of debris and 10 yards of delivered topsoil from the driveway to the opposite side backyard. I have shoveled thousands of pounds of dirt, sifted out debris and mixed in amendments in a large wheelbarrow. After all that, I still need to plant the bed and sod the area around it. And the daytime highs are now in the mid 90s so I’m pretty limited on my endurance. I started the project without really understanding or limiting the scope and detail and so it got out of hand. It was hard to limit the depth of the dig since I could always dig out “just one more rock”. That was what truly made the project insane. If I had stopped with my original goal, I would have been done but it would have bothered me to know that it wasn’t done right. I’m looking forward to finishing and planting it up. Check out my anchors. 

4A4004AB-48BE-4496-95C9-B1DED93431DC.jpeg

I lived in West Palm Beach for about a year, so I can relate to the heat. San Diego is much milder, but there is significantly less rain, so the water cost for a garden is very high. I wish I could grow coconut palms here though. I have a few Beccariophoenix fenestralis as substitutes, but even those aren't fairing well at the moment - I have heard they are difficult to grow in San Diego as well. 

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Jim in Los Altos
9 hours ago, Jason S. said:

I lived in West Palm Beach for about a year, so I can relate to the heat. San Diego is much milder, but there is significantly less rain, so the water cost for a garden is very high. I wish I could grow coconut palms here though. I have a few Beccariophoenix fenestralis as substitutes, but even those aren't fairing well at the moment - I have heard they are difficult to grow in San Diego as well. 

You need Beccariophoenix alfredii. They are rock solid growers in California and do exceptionally up here in Northern CA too. 

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Jason S.
32 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

You need Beccariophoenix alfredii. They are rock solid growers in California and do exceptionally up here in Northern CA too. 

In hindsight I wish I would have got those instead. I don't think the fenestralis are going to make it, so I replace them with the alfredii.

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