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Spring/Summer drought in southern England and northwestern Europe.

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sipalms
3 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

@sipalms Impressive work, you mentioned the volcano picture looked like New Zealand a bit, perhaps its in the southern cone of South America, similar vegetation there and lots of volcanoes .

Great point, you're dead right, probably southern Chile.

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UK_Palms

Well done detective. I guess the game is up. You got me @sipalms

Tell me though... how on earth did you pinpoint that exact location as being the back end of the lagoon in Oludeniz? Reverse searching the image on google doesn't seem to work as it is one of my own images that I took and is not public. It's not really a frequently photographed part of the lagoon either. You're right about it, I confess, but it's still pretty abstract. One thing I can't knock is your investigative skills however. Your persistence paid off. Nate was correct from the get-go as well when he allured to me including holiday/vacation pictures in my 'lake' post.

So I may have been drinking and smoking a lot in recent months/weeks, to cope with some personal issues going on (family, work, injury etc). Not the ideal way to deal with it, I know, but I have since cut the drink and weed out completely now. But nonetheless, I got drunk a few months back and ended up sneaking some Oludeniz snaps into my 'lake' post to spice it up a bit. Well, I remember seeing it the next morning and thinking "crap, it won't let me edit it". So I made the decision there and then to go along with it and blag it. Maybe lockdown sent me crazy, or made me bored...

Obviously there was no fooling the masses and some of you were onto me immediately. In my mind I was half trolling by carrying on the lie and half trying to cover my arse for getting myself into that situation. Ultimately I regret it and have been left with egg on my face, but I don't really care anymore. I am kind of relieved the truth is out now frankly as I regretted posting it ages ago. At best, maybe it provided some innocent entertainment on here, even if it is at my own expense. Whether that was Sipalms going in at me repeatedly, over and over (totally justified), or the other guys adamant it was taken near the Greek islands, or my outlandish claims in relation to the 'lake' images. Quite a few of you knew either way.

Anyway, it's not like I have killed or harmed anyone. I certainly haven't trolled anyone personally or anything. If anything, I have probably inadvertently trolled myself now. I'll probably look back at it in a few years, when I'm like 30, and think "what the hell was I doing!?". Well actually I'm thinking that now... :rolleyes:

 

9 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

@sipalms Impressive work, you mentioned the volcano picture looked like New Zealand a bit, perhaps its in the southern cone of South America, similar vegetation there and lots of volcanoes .

If I remember correctly, I took the image off Google when searching for images of the Lake District and Peak District as terrain examples in one of my posts. Having just looked into it, there also appears to be a 'Lake District' in Chile, so my guess would be that the lake/volcano image is from the 'Lake District' in Chile. At the time, I genuinely thought it was from one of the National Parks in the north of the UK. Likewise with the French beach picture, which would have come up when searching for images of Cornwall/Devon beaches. It genuinely wasn't intentional and also shows why it isn't a good idea to post masses of images (as examples even) from unverified sources.

Please feel free to analyse and scrutinise the rest of the pictures. Aside from the 'lake' and beach photos in question, the rest are just generic drought related images that I have clearly taken in sequence, or images of the Surrey fires. Now that summer is over though, and the drought situation is much better, this thread has become redundant...  in line with the "Spring-Summer drought" title of this thread (we're in autumn/fall now). I'm just going to focus on the palm growing from here on, and not post any BS. Certainly not when under the influence either. Better keep my head down in all seriousness now... 

...

Just on a side note... I arrived home from work this evening to see that one of my larger Queens has a spear/frond opening up. We went down to a chilly 6C here last night under the clear skies, but reached 21C on Tuesday. I am still unsure as to whether I should just plant these two Queens in the ground, ahead of this coming winter? Or just keep growing them on in pots for the time being, so I can protect them still, until they are bigger and hardier at least?

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sipalms
25 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Well done detective. I guess the game is up. You got me @sipalms

Tell me though... how on earth did you pinpoint that exact location as being the back end of the lagoon in Oludeniz? Reverse searching the image on google doesn't seem to work as it is one of my own images that I took and is not public. It's not really a frequently photographed part of the lagoon either. You're right about it, I confess, but it's still pretty abstract. One thing I can't knock is your investigative skills however. Your persistence paid off. Nate was correct from the get-go as well when he allured to me including holiday/vacation pictures in my 'lake' post.

So I may have been drinking and smoking a lot in recent months/weeks, to cope with some personal issues going on (family, work, injury etc). Not the ideal way to deal with it, I know, but I have since cut the drink and weed out completely now. But nonetheless, I got drunk a few months back and ended up sneaking some Oludeniz snaps into my 'lake' post to spice it up a bit. Well, I remember seeing it the next morning and thinking "crap, it won't let me edit it". So I made the decision there and then to go along with it and blag it. Maybe lockdown sent me crazy, or made me bored...

Obviously there was no fooling the masses and some of you were onto me immediately. In my mind I was half trolling by carrying on the lie and half trying to cover my arse for getting myself into that situation. Ultimately I regret it and have been left with egg on my face, but I don't really care anymore. I am kind of relieved the truth is out now frankly as I regretted posting it ages ago. At best, maybe it provided some innocent entertainment on here, even if it is at my own expense. Whether that was Sipalms going in at me repeatedly, over and over (totally justified), or the other guys adamant it was taken near the Greek islands, or my outlandish claims in relation to the 'lake' images. Quite a few of you knew either way.

Anyway, it's not like I have killed or harmed anyone. I certainly haven't trolled anyone personally or anything. If anything, I have probably inadvertently trolled myself now. I'll probably look back at it in a few years, when I'm like 30, and think "what the hell was I doing!?". Well actually I'm thinking that now... :rolleyes:

Call me Sherlock! :shaka-2:

I did a bit of sleuthing around before narrowing down Oludeniz and then found that picture amongst the Google images.

Honestly mate, I don't have anything against you personally, as obviously I don't know you personally at all (although would be hilarious to meet some day). We all have our issues from time to time, it was just the brazen claims and photos coming out that really bugged me. At times I felt like a relentless, obsessed lunatic trying to completely punish you and kinda felt bad for that, but as you say the truth is out for all to see. Good on you.

You're actually virtually the exact same age as me so that's kinda funny as well.

Anyway, nice bunch of palms you have, your collection is far greater than mine, I've only got Queens and Washies and Nikau growing at my place at the moment, but the collection is growing. I've now uploaded my yard pictures under my profile > About me section if you're interested.

With those Queens, from my experience of planting out a similar grade, is that in my climate they take a long time to settle in before the growth kicks in. They cop a lot of winter punishment as well, until they put on some height, but at that size you can protect easily. Did you grow them from seed? They're looking great. 

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sandgroper
7 hours ago, sipalms said:

Call me Sherlock! :shaka-2:

I did a bit of sleuthing around before narrowing down Oludeniz and then found that picture amongst the Google images.

Honestly mate, I don't have anything against you personally, as obviously I don't know you personally at all (although would be hilarious to meet some day). We all have our issues from time to time, it was just the brazen claims and photos coming out that really bugged me. At times I felt like a relentless, obsessed lunatic trying to completely punish you and kinda felt bad for that, but as you say the truth is out for all to see. Good on you.

You're actually virtually the exact same age as me so that's kinda funny as well.

Anyway, nice bunch of palms you have, your collection is far greater than mine, I've only got Queens and Washies and Nikau growing at my place at the moment, but the collection is growing. I've now uploaded my yard pictures under my profile > About me section if you're interested.

With those Queens, from my experience of planting out a similar grade, is that in my climate they take a long time to settle in before the growth kicks in. They cop a lot of winter punishment as well, until they put on some height, but at that size you can protect easily. Did you grow them from seed? They're looking great. 

You are a very decent bloke mate, very forgiving and a better bloke than I am. I think the OP has lost all credibility, I find it difficult to believe anything he's contributed now.

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Tyrone
20 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Well done detective. I guess the game is up. You got me @sipalms

Tell me though... how on earth did you pinpoint that exact location as being the back end of the lagoon in Oludeniz? Reverse searching the image on google doesn't seem to work as it is one of my own images that I took and is not public. It's not really a frequently photographed part of the lagoon either. You're right about it, I confess, but it's still pretty abstract. One thing I can't knock is your investigative skills however. Your persistence paid off. Nate was correct from the get-go as well when he allured to me including holiday/vacation pictures in my 'lake' post.

So I may have been drinking and smoking a lot in recent months/weeks, to cope with some personal issues going on (family, work, injury etc). Not the ideal way to deal with it, I know, but I have since cut the drink and weed out completely now. But nonetheless, I got drunk a few months back and ended up sneaking some Oludeniz snaps into my 'lake' post to spice it up a bit. Well, I remember seeing it the next morning and thinking "crap, it won't let me edit it". So I made the decision there and then to go along with it and blag it. Maybe lockdown sent me crazy, or made me bored...

Obviously there was no fooling the masses and some of you were onto me immediately. In my mind I was half trolling by carrying on the lie and half trying to cover my arse for getting myself into that situation. Ultimately I regret it and have been left with egg on my face, but I don't really care anymore. I am kind of relieved the truth is out now frankly as I regretted posting it ages ago. At best, maybe it provided some innocent entertainment on here, even if it is at my own expense. Whether that was Sipalms going in at me repeatedly, over and over (totally justified), or the other guys adamant it was taken near the Greek islands, or my outlandish claims in relation to the 'lake' images. Quite a few of you knew either way.

Anyway, it's not like I have killed or harmed anyone. I certainly haven't trolled anyone personally or anything. If anything, I have probably inadvertently trolled myself now. I'll probably look back at it in a few years, when I'm like 30, and think "what the hell was I doing!?". Well actually I'm thinking that now... :rolleyes:

 

If I remember correctly, I took the image off Google when searching for images of the Lake District and Peak District as terrain examples in one of my posts. Having just looked into it, there also appears to be a 'Lake District' in Chile, so my guess would be that the lake/volcano image is from the 'Lake District' in Chile. At the time, I genuinely thought it was from one of the National Parks in the north of the UK. Likewise with the French beach picture, which would have come up when searching for images of Cornwall/Devon beaches. It genuinely wasn't intentional and also shows why it isn't a good idea to post masses of images (as examples even) from unverified sources.

Please feel free to analyse and scrutinise the rest of the pictures. Aside from the 'lake' and beach photos in question, the rest are just generic drought related images that I have clearly taken in sequence, or images of the Surrey fires. Now that summer is over though, and the drought situation is much better, this thread has become redundant...  in line with the "Spring-Summer drought" title of this thread (we're in autumn/fall now). I'm just going to focus on the palm growing from here on, and not post any BS. Certainly not when under the influence either. Better keep my head down in all seriousness now... 

...

Just on a side note... I arrived home from work this evening to see that one of my larger Queens has a spear/frond opening up. We went down to a chilly 6C here last night under the clear skies, but reached 21C on Tuesday. I am still unsure as to whether I should just plant these two Queens in the ground, ahead of this coming winter? Or just keep growing them on in pots for the time being, so I can protect them still, until they are bigger and hardier at least?

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Keep the queens in their pots until next spring. Feed them up on seaweed and fish emulsion for the time being, then whack em in the ground in spring. They’re tough but a bit more size would be a good thing. Plant them out into the richest soil you can make and then water the heck out of them through next spring to autumn and see how they go from there.

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UK_Palms
18 hours ago, sipalms said:

Call me Sherlock! :shaka-2:

I did a bit of sleuthing around before narrowing down Oludeniz and then found that picture amongst the Google images.

Honestly mate, I don't have anything against you personally, as obviously I don't know you personally at all (although would be hilarious to meet some day). We all have our issues from time to time, it was just the brazen claims and photos coming out that really bugged me. At times I felt like a relentless, obsessed lunatic trying to completely punish you and kinda felt bad for that, but as you say the truth is out for all to see. Good on you.

You're actually virtually the exact same age as me so that's kinda funny as well.

Anyway, nice bunch of palms you have, your collection is far greater than mine, I've only got Queens and Washies and Nikau growing at my place at the moment, but the collection is growing. I've now uploaded my yard pictures under my profile > About me section if you're interested.

With those Queens, from my experience of planting out a similar grade, is that in my climate they take a long time to settle in before the growth kicks in. They cop a lot of winter punishment as well, until they put on some height, but at that size you can protect easily. Did you grow them from seed? They're looking great. 

I know it isn't personal or anything. I had it coming. What goes around, comes around. In all honesty, I remember thinking "there's no chance anyone will pinpoint that lagoon location", but I didn't anticipate that you would pursue it, and investigate it, to the extent that you did. You were certainly relentless and rightfully so. When you were going in at me, over and over, I was trying to be all polite and patronising to mask my guilt :rolleyes:. There, I've said it. I'm being straight up honest. Lock me up and throw away the key for my awful crimes against humanity. Not that I have harmed anyone. But on a serious note, I will keep my head down now and act sensible. I am as passionate about palm growing as anyone, so...

Anyway, I checked out your photos and I am pretty envious of your garden setup. You don't have loads of palms, as you say, but the ones you have got have been used really well and are of decent size. The two Washies out front look really good and will look amazing in a few years when they gain more height. The garden and house in general is landscaped really well, unlike my own. I need to address that. I have lots of palms as you say, but I am reluctant to plant most of them as I will be moving house at some point in the not too decent future. Some I could dig up I suppose, but it's just not practical, hence why lots are still potted.

I also have way too many types that are very marginal in my climate. I'm going to lose some things over the coming winters here, no doubt, and I'm not even talking about the Queens necessarily. I mean I'm toying with the idea of planting out my Bangalow/King Palm this weekend, although I will probably hold off for now. The same with my Chambeyronia 'flamethrower'. Both came through last winter unprotected, in pots. But it was very mild. I have also been tempted to plant out the Kentia as well, but I don't think it's worth the risk this far north. It would probably be complacent and naive of me to risk it up here at 51N. 

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The two bigger Queens that are pictured were not started from seed, although I do have a number of 'Santa Catarina' Queen seedlings that were germinated in the spring. The picture below was taken about a month ago and these seedlings have now put out another strap leaf since then. A few of these will probably be used in a guerrilla palm planting project next spring. 

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Just quickly, did you ever sort out the issue with your Butia Yatay? My own Butia Odorata has been a pain in the arse since the day I got it. Fronds brown off quickly at an excessive rate, especially during summer, and new fronds seem to emerge with discolouration and damaged parts, especially during winter. It's not cold damage either. Some kind of scale issue or something. Maybe even necrosis. Hard to explain. Did your Butia ever grow out of whatever issue it had? I worry mine will start declining badly now ahead of winter. It's really put me off the idea of growing Butia's. One of my only 'problem' palms here.

 

11 hours ago, sandgroper said:

You are a very decent bloke mate, very forgiving and a better bloke than I am. I think the OP has lost all credibility, I find it difficult to believe anything he's contributed now.

Dude, I never had any credibility to begin with... :floor:

I'm just a guy growing palms at lat 51N. I'm in my mid 20's and have only been growing palms for about 5 years now, which is nothing. My biggest palm is about 6-7 foot tall. I know Jack sh*t in the grand scheme of things. And I'll be modest enough to admit that, in light of anything else I have said or done. The only thing I care about is growing palms and credibility doesn't help them grow any better. I can live without it.

 

9 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Keep the queens in their pots until next spring. Feed them up on seaweed and fish emulsion for the time being, then whack em in the ground in spring. They’re tough but a bit more size would be a good thing. Plant them out into the richest soil you can make and then water the heck out of them through next spring to autumn and see how they go from there.

Thanks for the advise Tyrone, I appreciate it. I think I am going to do as you suggest. I'll keep them potted until next spring, but I think I'll bury the pots in the ground for added root protection against the cold, then lift up the pots and bring them under cover, if we see anything below say -5C this coming winter. Then hopefully plant at least one of them in the spring, as you suggest.

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sipalms
3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Just quickly, did you ever sort out the issue with your Butia Yatay?

Sorry you may have the wrong guy, I don't have any Butias.

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Thanks for the advise Tyrone, I appreciate it. I think I am going to do as you suggest. I'll keep them potted until next spring, but I think I'll bury the pots in the ground for added root protection against the cold, then lift up the pots and bring them under cover, if we see anything below say -5C this coming winter. Then hopefully plant at least one of them in the spring, as you suggest.

I'm sure @Tyrone knows a tonne more about palms than me... But from my experience with Queens, I planted one in May (e.g equivalent of November in the UK) purely taking a risk. It withstood winter temps down to -5 C / 23F completely unprotected, coming away with some minor frond burn. But then when spring came it took off something crazy... By end of summer looked amazing. 

Then the next one I planted in our October / UK equivalent of April, and it took all spring and summer to settle in, the warmth probably gave it more of a transplant shock as it was probably trying to photosynthesise and grow but with undeveloped roots. I reckon if you're prepared for the risk, try planting one out before winter, you may be surprised how well it comes away in spring - the roots will be ready to do their bit. Like any tree, particularly fruit trees, they develop their roots in the off season when dormant and the above ground part is essentially asleep, then utilise said roots when the 'above ground' part is getting the action in summer. That's my two cents!

7 hours ago, Tyrone said:

Feed them up on seaweed and fish emulsion for the time being

Absolutely... They love seaweed, mine get heaps of sheep pellets as well, and bucket loads of water.

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UK_Palms
11 hours ago, sipalms said:

Sorry you may have the wrong guy, I don't have any Butias.

It must be another guy from Christchurch then, who is also called Simon as well, who also happens to grow palms. And posts online about it.

A bit coincidental, but if you say that it isn't you, then it obviously isn't you. I don't mean that sarcastically either, honestly. I'm just a bit perplexed, since I assumed it was you who was growing the Butia a few years back, when I saw the post about it on another forum. Which is why I asked you about it, since I am having my own Butia issues over here, which I am trying to resolve.

I suppose it could easily be someone else in the Christchurch region though, but still a mad coincidence. I don't want people thinking I am a total crackpot, so I am posting a screenshot to back up why I assumed it was you...

 

1463237023_ScreenShot2020-09-03at18_55_16.jpg.54c13de47b8928610125ed15cc1ca377.jpg

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sipalms
27 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

It must be another guy from Christchurch then, who is also called Simon as well, who also happens to grow palms. And posts online about it.

A bit coincidental, but if you say that it isn't you, then it obviously isn't you. I don't mean that sarcastically either, honestly. I'm just a bit perplexed, since I assumed it was you who was growing the Butia a few years back, when I saw the post about it on another forum. Which is why I asked you about it, since I am having my own Butia issues over here, which I am trying to resolve.

I suppose it could easily be someone else in the Christchurch region though, but still a mad coincidence. I don't want people thinking I am a total crackpot, so I am posting a screenshot to back up why I assumed it was you...

 

1463237023_ScreenShot2020-09-03at18_55_16.jpg.54c13de47b8928610125ed15cc1ca377.jpg

Sorry that is not me, but there is another Simon who is on some palm forums from Christchurch, we've never met though. I can see the confusion now though! When I originally created my profile, 'sipalms' actually was supposed to stand for 'South Island Palms' but it kinda worked with the Simon name as well.

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UK_Palms
42 minutes ago, sipalms said:

Sorry that is not me, but there is another Simon who is on some palm forums from Christchurch, we've never met though. I can see the confusion now though! When I originally created my profile, 'sipalms' actually was supposed to stand for 'South Island Palms' but it kinda worked with the Simon name as well.

No worries. That's pretty coincidental though still, given that he's also called Simon, lives in Christchurch, grows palms and posts about them on the same forums. Then again we are talking about a city of almost 400,000 people, with quite a lot of palms, so maybe it's not so coincidental after all. 

I always assumed 'Sipalms' was an abbreviation, or reference, to the South Island. I never thought it was a reference to your name, especially since I seem to recall your name being set to 'Jeremy', until about a month or two back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am convinced you had your name down as Jeremy in your bio? I know I have referred to you as 'Jeremy' in this thread, but only because I remember seeing it on your profile. 

I don't know whether you were using a middle name at the time or something, or whether I am just in fact confusing you with someone else entirely :hmm: ... but I am adamant it was set to Jeremy, which again is why I assumed 'Siplams' was a reference to the South Island, where you live, rather than your name. Obviously I know that you are called Simon now though, so 'Sipalms' is in fact a double reference to your name and location. Pretty nifty to be honest. 

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sipalms
33 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

No worries. That's pretty coincidental though still, given that he's also called Simon, lives in Christchurch, grows palms and posts about them on the same forums. Then again we are talking about a city of almost 400,000 people, with quite a lot of palms, so maybe it's not so coincidental after all. 

I always assumed 'Sipalms' was an abbreviation, or reference, to the South Island. I never thought it was a reference to your name, especially since I seem to recall your name being set to 'Jeremy', until about a month or two back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am convinced you had your name down as Jeremy in your bio? I know I have referred to you as 'Jeremy' in this thread, but only because I remember seeing it on your profile. 

I don't know whether you were using a middle name at the time or something, or whether I am just in fact confusing you with someone else entirely :hmm: ... but I am adamant it was set to Jeremy, which again is why I assumed 'Siplams' was a reference to the South Island, where you live, rather than your name. Obviously I know that you are called Simon now though, so 'Sipalms' is in fact a double reference to your name and location. Pretty nifty to be honest. 

Good on you mate, try and make it look like I'm as dishonest and disingenuous as you okay? Just after you got outed being an incredibly dishonest and misleading fraud, posting pictures from the Turkey and France and goodness knows where else, and saying that you took them in the UK.

I decided to move on and try to get things back on track, for your sake buddy, everyone can see that, they don't have to read far above. I genuinely did. And yet you decide to go on a witch hunt trying to make me look like a fool, good on you. Stuff it, you've had your chance, I don't care any more and will carry on being a pain in the a*** if that is what you prefer.

The Simon you have posted is not me, I have seen him on other forums, I have no way of proving that it is not me unless you have a suggestion? I'm more than happy to find a way. He has an interesting palm garden clearly on display on the EPS forum, and if you care to compare you'll note our houses look totally different, let alone yard/garden.

The name I have on my avatar is irrelevant anyhow, is it not? After all, most on here don't even use a name, very few use their full name, and I suspect a lot of people use an entirely fake or different name, it's online after all. Go on, why don't you put your full name up? Why have you got Ben? 

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UK_Palms
1 hour ago, sipalms said:

Good on you mate, try and make it look like I'm as dishonest and disingenuous as you okay? Just after you got outed being an incredibly dishonest and misleading fraud, posting pictures from the Turkey and France and goodness knows where else, and saying that you took them in the UK.

I decided to move on and try to get things back on track, for your sake buddy, everyone can see that, they don't have to read far above. I genuinely did. And yet you decide to go on a witch hunt trying to make me look like a fool, good on you. Stuff it, you've had your chance, I don't care any more and will carry on being a pain in the a*** if that is what you prefer.

The Simon you have posted is not me, I have seen him on other forums, I have no way of proving that it is not me unless you have a suggestion? I'm more than happy to find a way. He has an interesting palm garden clearly on display on the EPS forum, and if you care to compare you'll note our houses look totally different, let alone yard/garden.

The name I have on my avatar is irrelevant anyhow, is it not? After all, most on here don't even use a name, very few use their full name, and I suspect a lot of people use an entirely fake or different name, it's online after all. Go on, why don't you put your full name up? Why have you got Ben? 

Woah, chill. Bloody hell. That escalated quickly. I'm not for a second trying to make you look dishonest. You have totally misinterpreted my comment and taken it as an attack somehow when I have tried to engage in a civil manner.

First of all, I asked a legitimate question about the Butia, since I genuinely thought that other guy was you. And you understand why I thought that, as per my above post(s). You have since clarified that it isn't you, which I am NOT doubting at all, but I merely stated what a coincidence it is that another guy called Simon, in Christchurch, is posting about palms on the forums. It's certainly not unrealistic that there are two of you, and I obviously take your word that it isn't you. Like genuinely.

Although it's hardly surprising that I mistook his posts from several years ago, on the EPS, as being yours, initially. You have since clarified things now though and there is no issue, so we can move on from that. And it WAS just an innocent question I asked about the Butia problem, since I have my own Butia issues here and I was actually looking to you for advise, which is why I asked. It's hardly surprising that I was left scratching my head over it a few posts back. I mean come on. 

The name issue however... well yes, the name on your avatar is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. However you mentioned your name and delved into the meaning behind it, not me. All I did was explain how I knew that Sipalms referred to 'South Island' rather than the name 'Simon'. Is it not relevant for me to mention that, as you know full well that I have addressed you as 'Jeremy' before in the forums. Although I also acknowledged that I could have potentially got the names muddled up with someone else on here, perhaps. In which case it would have been my mistake. I did acknowledge that, didn't I. Just in case. So I am by no means trying to imply that you are dishonest or anything. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. 

I even complimented the use of 'Sipalms' in my previous post, calling it "nifty", since it is a reference to both your location and your name. Again, I don't know why you think I am on the offensive. Nobody is obliged to use their real name. I never suggested they were. Although Ben is actually my real first name. But surely you must understand why I mentioned the Jeremy thing, in relation to me thinking/knowing that Sipalms referred to 'South Island', rather than Simon. Again, come on man. 

I wouldn't have even mentioned any of that if you didn't delve into your name and it's meaning. Like I could have brought it up weeks ago if I actually wanted to, but I only mentioned it because it was relevant to what was being discussed. Although ultimately, I'm sorry for explaining why I thought that Sipalms referred to 'South Island' palms. Although if the roles were reversed and you were in my position, you would have mentioned the exact same thing to me. Like come on Simon.

I can't be arsed to argue and just want to focus on the palms now, so here's a CIDP I spotted yesterday in a front garden just outside of Guildford. Not planted in the best location and en-route to causing some major issues as it keeps growing. These kind of plantings are common around the south of England. Smaller, store-brought CIDP's put in tiny gardens that explode in size quite quickly. At least they bring that instant exotic look to the street...

thumbnail_image0-47.thumb.jpg.f80bfeb38572f2b356749897efe5821d.jpg

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Texyn
On 7/21/2020 at 10:52 AM, LivistonaFan said:

Ok, I misinterpreted you with the Royals then. "Several decent sized specimens in London, growing unprotected for a few winters there"  did sound unreal to me and I was a little doubtful to say the least. I assumed that they were planted, but in pots they might even be less likely to survive.  Central London has 52 sunshine hours in December and 62 in January, merely 2 hours a day. The soil temperature of these royals would have been below 10°C most of the winter which I find very surprising that they have survived even one winter, let alone a "few". The reason is, I saw a very poor looking specimen in Menton in 2019, it was planted in one of the warmer microclimates and  was about 1,50m high. Menton is several degrees warmer and sunnier (nearby coastal cities have 140 sunshine hours in December and 160 in January) in Winter than London (+there is at least 2 in 3 winters no frost, in recent times maybe even more often). I also saw a poor looking Bismarckia there (there was no frost the year before) and I concluded that these two palms need some winter warmth and dryness (not to the same extent as Cocos nucifera obviously) which only cities in Southern Europe e.g. Valencia and regions southwards, Reggio Calabria + Sicily, maybe Athens and southwards can provide. Bismarckia certainly can survive in more northern regions like Rome or Barcelona but most aren't good-looking there imo.

 

Phoenix roebellinii and Howea forsteriana are totally different cases as they aren't really cold tolerant but quite cool tolerant.

Below you can see a Howea forsteriana I took a photo of 10 km away from Menton in coastal Italy. If a Howea forsteriana (among few others there+ very good sized Archontophoenix and Caryota) and dozens of Phoenix roebellinii can survive the winters there and a Royal can't survive in good condition even a mild one, it surely is clear why I am doubtful about the survival in pots in London, even in the warmest winter of the century. They MUST have been brought indoors in winter.

DSC_3221.thumb.JPG.482877a8ec999bbd773aa1615aed5628.JPGDSC_3227.thumb.JPG.8bad9090b1b1ed1df469a83ccbd6605a.JPG

 

You're right. You gave me a descriptive answer, but it wasn't sufficient. To be clear I am only doubtful about the one photo of yours I posted last time. Of course there are spots in the UK that have a more dramatic immediate coast, but NONE OF THE ONES I have seen have high mountains behind them. I looked at all your 13 locations through Google Photos, ALL OF THEM have those glacier-polished hinterlands behind their cliffs, NOT A SINGLE ONE gets really mountainous after the immediate coast. I even have been to Polperro and Looe. Therefore my point about the lack of mountains in the previous post is still valid.

Some of the more dramatic coast sections you posted:

Porthcurno Beach:

Porthcurno beach, Cornwall | Nic Trott | Flickr

Portloe:

Portloe

Molunan Beach:

Great Molunan Beach in Cornwall aerial image | Great Molunan… | Flickr

Polkerris Beach:

Polkerris Beach, Cornwall | Polkerris Beach, Cornwall | Flickr

 

You raise some good points about London being cloudy,  and also that winter warmth is required for the growth of healthy palms; though in most of the Italian South and Malta, a myriad of palms, including washingtonias, queen palms, Phoenix canariensis, and other tropical plants can be grown without protection.

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UK_Palms
5 hours ago, Texyn said:

You raise some good points about London being cloudy,  and also that winter warmth is required for the growth of healthy palms; though in most of the Italian South and Malta, a myriad of palms, including washingtonias, queen palms, Phoenix canariensis, and other tropical plants can be grown without protection.

London is only cloudy and dull in winter because of it's latitude at 51N, which gives it a bad rap in general for dullness, due to how weak the sunlight intensity/solar output is in winter and how short the days are too at that time of year (due to the latitude). 

Although London's 52 hours of sunshine in December suddenly doesn't look that bad when you compare it to the paltry 18 hours that Moscow gets, or the 29 hours that Warsaw gets. Or the 33 hours that Stockholm gets. Or the 40 hours that Copenhagen gets. Or the 46 hours that Berlin gets. Even Paris get's less sunlight hours than London in December, just slightly, as well as slightly less sunlight hours annually. Not to mention Paris has more annual rainfall too. Yet I don't hear people calling Paris 'cloudy' and dull, as they do London. :rolleyes: 

In fact London is probably the sunniest capital city in northern Europe, above say 48N, during the winter. But obviously when compared to central and southern Europe, there is no competition. You guys are far sunnier and warmer, especially in winter. We can though grow CIDP's and Washies fine in London without winter protection (unlike Paris or Berlin). There are a lot of specimens about these days, now that people are planting them everywhere and older specimens have had a chance to grow to decent sizes. None of which need protection. The lowest nighttime temperature in central London last winter was +1.5C.

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UK_Palms

So the first week of September has seen slightly below average temps with highs in the 18-22C range. However, I did hit 26.3C on Tuesday and I am expecting to reach 24/25C on Wednesday too. Then after a brief cool down towards the end of the week, it looks like temperatures will recover to reach the high 20's C, possibly nudging 30C, around London and the southeast at least.

The Met Office mentioned the possibility of a 10 day heatwave lasting well into late September, but that's too far ahead to predict at this stage. Some of their computer models are showing spikes of 31-32C on 16th and 17th September, but then a sharp cool down again in the days after. Another model shows 27-28C for about a week straight, starting Sunday 13th. So it's a bit of an unknown at present. Just as long as it is nice and warm for my birthday.

Either way, I'm just glad to get some proper heat again here, which we haven't really had since the mid-late August heatwave. It is also pretty dry again here, even when overcast conditions present themselves. Rainfall patterns have just become so inconsistent now, although it looks like the bulk of the rainfall might come in winter again. I'm currently on 231mm (9.1 inches) for the year and that's after copping a thunderstorm last week, which they missed just down the road. 

I can barely get anything done after work now as the nights draw in. It was pitch black by about 8pm tonight here, compared to 9pm just 2-3 weeks ago. A gentle reminder that winter is just around the corner. Dreading it frankly. Despite an overnight low of just 17C on Monday night, we have a few chilly nights forecast under the clear skies, now that the days are much shorter and nights longer. Still not expecting my first frost here for another 7-8 weeks though.

1449501929_ScreenShot2020-09-09at02_05_15.thumb.jpg.6ca89981a5be4f6dd682e99a911d79b7.jpg

Edited by UK_Palms

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Texyn
6 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

London is only cloudy and dull in winter because of it's latitude at 51N, which gives it a bad rap in general for dullness, due to how weak the sunlight intensity/solar output is in winter and how short the days are too at that time of year (due to the latitude). 

Although London's 52 hours of sunshine in December suddenly doesn't look that bad when you compare it to the paltry 18 hours that Moscow gets, or the 29 hours that Warsaw gets. Or the 33 hours that Stockholm gets. Or the 40 hours that Copenhagen gets. Or the 46 hours that Berlin gets. Even Paris get's less sunlight hours than London in December, just slightly, as well as slightly less sunlight hours annually. Not to mention Paris has more annual rainfall too. Yet I don't hear people calling Paris 'cloudy' and dull, as they do London. :rolleyes: 

In fact London is probably the sunniest capital city in northern Europe, above say 48N, during the winter. But obviously when compared to central and southern Europe, there is no competition. You guys are far sunnier and warmer, especially in winter. We can though grow CIDP's and Washies fine in London without winter protection (unlike Paris or Berlin). There are a lot of specimens about these days, now that people are planting them everywhere and older specimens have had a chance to grow to decent sizes. None of which need protection. The lowest nighttime temperature in central London last winter was +1.5C.

Retard. You are comparing your palms which are grown in pots which actually need protection from cold in winter (you are clearly lying in here), to the subtropical paradise of the Italian South where they grow WILD AND FREE, without any human intervention. Sections of the Southern Italian forests feature lots of pines, especially upland areas, like the Calabria region; other sections, especially the coastal sections, feature more mesic forests, where broadleaf evergreens like Live Oaks, Magnolias, and Bay Trees, dominate, with lots of palms growing in the understory, and pockets of pine trees present as well.

Unlike the UK, the Italian South actually HAS many varieties of native palms, some quite frost tender too. King palms grow just fine in southern Italian cities like Naples, Palermo, and Catania, and palm trees of many kinds, from palmettos, to washingtonias, to date palms, have naturalized themselves in each of the cities, and in the rest of the Coastal Italian South, with other members of the lineage found growing in tropical areas like the Canary Islands, or Malta. The Italian South's forests, both the coastal subtropical areas, and the broadleaf evergreen areas, are far more lush than the dewy rye heathlands with palms taken indoors in winter people in UK like to pass off as subtropical forests. And since you are talking about gardens too, the Italian South has plenty of gardens that look like the Amazon rainforest, complete with vines, lianas, flowers, bamboo, and vegetation so thick, you have to take a machete through it just to pass.

You also fail to consider that London has 8 -hour long days in December, which would imply that there are 240 possible sunshine hours that month, meaning that there is, on average, about 25% possible sunshine in December in London, and the coldest night this year at Heathrow was –2C on Jan 21st, and I got it from KNMI, a trustworthy climate source.

Edited by Texyn

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UK_Palms

@Texyn When did I compare my climate to the Italian south? You’re the one mentioning Italy in this thread. You guys are clearly warmer and sunnier. Nobody is disputing that. In fact I specifically stated in my previous post to you that there is “no competition” when comparing London to Southern Europe, due to us being so far north at 51N. I was just stating that it’s the lack of sunlight intensity and short days in winter that give London a bad rep for being gloomy. 

Also Heathrow is not central London. It is located in the western suburbs and much further inland than central London and at higher altitude. Heathrow is always a bit cooler in winter and a bit warmer in summer than central London. Their lowest last winter was -1C though according to my sources. Still pretty mild for the lowest minimum, 30 miles inland at 51N. London City airport in central London didn’t drop below 1.5C / 35F last winter though. That is a fact. 

And the reason I have a lot of my palms in pots is because I am moving house in the not too distant future. I am only 26 and don’t want to commit to planting them all in the ground, then either having to dig them all up again, or abandon them when I do move house in 6-12 months. If anything, the fact they survive above ground in pots here is a testament to how mild the winters are at this latitude. I haven’t protected the CIDP, Washies, Queens, Butia etc the past two winters and my lowest last winter here was -3.3C, but I am right out in the rural countryside in a small village. I’m 35 miles inland and there is no urban heat island effect here. The palms do fine though, contrary to your comments. 
 

 

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UK_Palms

A Met Office spokesperson was talking on the BBC earlier about the possibility of us breaking the September record early next week and expects 32-33C in some places on Monday. The forecast could get upgraded, or downgraded, between now and then though. The September record currently stands at 35.6C (96F). I doubt we'll get close to that though.

We seem to be in another dry cycle again here with little to no rainfall. It's already pretty dry out, but looking at the long term forecast, there doesn't seem to be any measurable precipitation predicted over the next 10-14 days... :bemused:

Screen Shot 2020-09-10 at 04.29.07.jpg

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Texyn
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@Texyn When did I compare my climate to the Italian south? You’re the one mentioning Italy in this thread. You guys are clearly warmer and sunnier. Nobody is disputing that. In fact I specifically stated in my previous post to you that there is “no competition” when comparing London to Southern Europe, due to us being so far north at 51N. I was just stating that it’s the lack of sunlight intensity and short days in winter that give London a bad rep for being gloomy. 

Also Heathrow is not central London. It is located in the western suburbs and much further inland than central London and at higher altitude. Heathrow is always a bit cooler in winter and a bit warmer in summer than central London. Their lowest last winter was -1C though according to my sources. Still pretty mild for the lowest minimum, 30 miles inland at 51N. London City airport in central London didn’t drop below 1.5C / 35F last winter though. That is a fact. 

And the reason I have a lot of my palms in pots is because I am moving house in the not too distant future. I am only 26 and don’t want to commit to planting them all in the ground, then either having to dig them all up again, or abandon them when I do move house in 6-12 months. If anything, the fact they survive above ground in pots here is a testament to how mild the winters are at this latitude. I haven’t protected the CIDP, Washies, Queens, Butia etc the past two winters and my lowest last winter here was -3.3C, but I am right out in the rural countryside in a small village. I’m 35 miles inland and there is no urban heat island effect here. The palms do fine though, contrary to your comments. 
 

 

I'm not denying that London is gloomy and places further south in Europe are sunnier, though I was poking fun of those who make out dodgy PWS readings as being legitimate, like the ones reading 105+F temperatures when London with the UHI had a high of only 99F this year. :P

Which sources are you trying to use, and where are you moving to? You tried growing coconuts last year WITHOUT protection and they died from the cold last November, and Washingtonias are damaged by temperatures below 27F.

 

 

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NorCalKing

@sipalms very nicely done! I'm thrilled the fraud has finally been exposed for what he is. 

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UK_Palms
3 hours ago, Texyn said:

I'm not denying that London is gloomy and places further south in Europe are sunnier, though I was poking fun of those who make out dodgy PWS readings as being legitimate, like the ones reading 105+F temperatures when London with the UHI had a high of only 99F this year. :P

Which sources are you trying to use, and where are you moving to? You tried growing coconuts last year WITHOUT protection and they died from the cold last November, and Washingtonias are damaged by temperatures below 27F.

 

 

The official Met station at Heathrow recorded 37.8C (100F) on July 31st, not 99F as you claim. I am about 18 miles SSW of Heathrow, as the crow flies. It's certainly feasible that I can be a few degrees warmer than Heathrow on any given day, given my inland location. Unfortunately there are NO official Met stations in my county (Surrey), therefore I am at liberty to record my own temperatures here and report them. Without an 'official' Met station, it is impossible to get verified, accurate temperatures for anywhere in my county. Not officially recognised confirmations anyway. The 'official' stations at Heathrow and Kew are roughly 7 miles apart, yet can differ by up to 2-3C, so it is totally feasible that my temperature can vary by at least that amount here.

Yes, perhaps my recordings are inaccurate by a degree or two, since I don't have a Stevenson screen or whatever it is called. Plus the surrounding houses and concrete in general maybe traps and radiates more heat in my garden. I don't know. However, I stand by my own recordings in the shade here, even if they are not 100% accurate due to a few minor technicalities. I also recognise that they are not 'official' temperatures for that reason, clearly. Plus, I have never claimed that my readings are 'legitimate' as you say. But that doesn't make the temperature recordings false either though. It's just the temperature that is recorded in my yard, without a Stevenson screen. It could be correct, or it could be a few degrees off. Either way it helps to know and monitor what kind of temperatures I am dealing with in my yard, especially during winter. So my recordings aren't irrelevant. 

You're right that I had a single Cocos Nucifera last year that I was using as summer bedding, which I chose not to protect. Obviously it would not survive here at 51N, or long term anywhere else in Europe for that matter. Including the 'deep south' of Italy. I find it strange that you would mention that coconut though. I do however have Queens (Syagrus Romanzoffiana), Kings Archontophoenix Cunninghamia) and Chambeyronia growing here. None of which were protected last winter and none of which suffered any proper damage. The same with the Washingtonia, which do perfectly fine here. There's quite a few big Washies around the southeast of England nowadays, including several 25-30ft Filifera's and a 40ft Robusta. The guys in the Netherlands have also had good success with Washies and they are marginally colder than me in winter due to being on the continent. Yet they still grow Washies okay there. Just saying.

I'll post some pictures of my other palms this weekend, as I haven't properly since winter 2018-19. You can say what you like about my climate, but how many other places above 50N see temperatures in the 30's C during mid September? Plus we're an island at 50-55N and not even on the continent, which makes it all the more unusual at this latitude. Not to mention central London seeing a low 1.5C (35F) last winter at 51N. So clearly many palms will do fine in London and the south of England. The climate isn't as bad as people like to accentuate. Further north in the UK, outside of the south, is a completely different story however...

1520386215_ScreenShot2020-09-10at20_51_58.thumb.jpg.df4d4b19d10d70addd7d7156f8fe3188.jpg

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Texyn
On 9/10/2020 at 10:37 PM, UK_Palms said:

The official Met station at Heathrow recorded 37.8C (100F) on July 31st, not 99F as you claim. I am about 18 miles SSW of Heathrow, as the crow flies. It's certainly feasible that I can be a few degrees warmer than Heathrow on any given day, given my inland location. Unfortunately there are NO official Met stations in my county (Surrey), therefore I am at liberty to record my own temperatures here and report them. Without an 'official' Met station, it is impossible to get verified, accurate temperatures for anywhere in my county. Not officially recognised confirmations anyway. The 'official' stations at Heathrow and Kew are roughly 7 miles apart, yet can differ by up to 2-3C, so it is totally feasible that my temperature can vary by at least that amount here.

Yes, perhaps my recordings are inaccurate by a degree or two, since I don't have a Stevenson screen or whatever it is called. Plus the surrounding houses and concrete in general maybe traps and radiates more heat in my garden. I don't know. However, I stand by my own recordings in the shade here, even if they are not 100% accurate due to a few minor technicalities. I also recognise that they are not 'official' temperatures for that reason, clearly. Plus, I have never claimed that my readings are 'legitimate' as you say. But that doesn't make the temperature recordings false either though. It's just the temperature that is recorded in my yard, without a Stevenson screen. It could be correct, or it could be a few degrees off. Either way it helps to know and monitor what kind of temperatures I am dealing with in my yard, especially during winter. So my recordings aren't irrelevant. 

You're right that I had a single Cocos Nucifera last year that I was using as summer bedding, which I chose not to protect. Obviously it would not survive here at 51N, or long term anywhere else in Europe for that matter. Including the 'deep south' of Italy. I find it strange that you would mention that coconut though. I do however have Queens (Syagrus Romanzoffiana), Kings Archontophoenix Cunninghamia) and Chambeyronia growing here. None of which were protected last winter and none of which suffered any proper damage. The same with the Washingtonia, which do perfectly fine here. There's quite a few big Washies around the southeast of England nowadays, including several 25-30ft Filifera's and a 40ft Robusta. The guys in the Netherlands have also had good success with Washies and they are marginally colder than me in winter due to being on the continent. Yet they still grow Washies okay there. Just saying.

I'll post some pictures of my other palms this weekend, as I haven't properly since winter 2018-19. You can say what you like about my climate, but how many other places above 50N see temperatures in the 30's C during mid September? Plus we're an island at 50-55N and not even on the continent, which makes it all the more unusual at this latitude. Not to mention central London seeing a low 1.5C (35F) last winter at 51N. So clearly many palms will do fine in London and the south of England. The climate isn't as bad as people like to accentuate. Further north in the UK, outside of the south, is a completely different story however...

1520386215_ScreenShot2020-09-10at20_51_58.thumb.jpg.df4d4b19d10d70addd7d7156f8fe3188.jpg

Well Guildford is closer to the sea than London is, thus the 100+F readings and 75+F lows you "record" are clearly spurious, it would only get cooler as you go south, and I'm aware that there are no Met Office stations in Guildford, you twat. :rolleyes: Anyone with half a brain, and two eyes would know that those 102+F readings in Guildford are utter bullshit, and that Heathrow has a summer precipitation peak, and is not, AT ALL, a Mediterranean climate, unlike the Italian South:

There is no need to argue that UK's gardens look less lush than those in the Italian South, and that palms need human protection in the UK; that is just plain common sense. Anyone with even half a brain would know that the Italian South's gardens are much lusher.

Once again, you fail.

This is a map of interpolated temperatures for the UK on July 31st, more proof that you're posting complete bollocks, @sipalms is right:

 

Screen Shot 2020-09-12 at 8.27.49 AM.png

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UK_Palms
4 hours ago, Texyn said:

Well Guildford is closer to the sea than London is, thus the 100+F readings and 75+F lows you "record" are clearly spurious, it would only get cooler as you go south, and I'm aware that there are no Met Office stations in Guildford, you twat. :rolleyes: Anyone with half a brain, and two eyes would know that those 102+F readings in Guildford are utter bullshit, and that Heathrow has a summer precipitation peak, and is not, AT ALL, a Mediterranean climate, unlike the Italian South

I am around 31 miles inland from the south coast, meaning there is no coastal influence in winter or summer here. Central London however is only about 25 miles inland from the coast. They are marginally closer. Most of East London is within 20 miles of the coast. Combined with their proximity to the Thames estuary as well, it helps to moderate temperatures in winter, which is why central and east London are warmer in winter. Although London is generally warmer, especially in winter, due to the urban heat island effect, which I clearly do not experience out here in the rural countryside. Although I can still get warmer than London here on any given day, especially during summer.

I see you are getting your UK data from overseas via a German university weather tracker, which makes me very dubious, especially since the time and date isn't even shown on that map. For all I know, it could be showing 11am temperatures. I guess I should take those recordings as gospel, over my own climatic data recorded here in my own back yard. Somehow I don't think so. I also know your interpolated map is off by at least 7F because the official Met Station at Heathrow recorded 100F on 31st July and Kew recorded 99F. Yet the map you attached is only showing 93F for the Heathrow area and 94F for Kew? Unless you are suggesting the Met Office's own verified recordings are incorrect by 6-7F...? :hmm: 

Also, Heathrow clearly does not have a summer precipitation peak. If that was the case, the southeast of England in general wouldn't be experiencing major summer droughts over the past 3-4 years. I mean the 5 driest months since the year 2010 have all occurred between spring and summer. The 5 wettest months have all occurred during winter. There are clearly large spikes in precipitation from November - February and big declines in precipitation from April - September. The period from May - June is especially dry nowadays. I know, since I actually live here.

 

4 hours ago, Texyn said:

There is no need to argue that UK's gardens look less lush than those in the Italian South, and that palms need human protection in the UK; that is just plain common sense. Anyone with even half a brain would know that the Italian South's gardens are much lusher.

Once again, you fail.

This is a map of interpolated temperatures for the UK on July 31st, more proof that you're posting complete bollocks, @sipalms is right:

Nobody has questioned southern Italy being warmer and sunnier than the UK. But since you keep mentioning it, we're now into mid September here in southern England, but where is all this rainfall....? I can't see any in the extended forecast. But we're supposed to be 'gloomy', wet and cold. Yet it looks pretty warm and dry for a coastal island at 51N in autumn/fall now. Perhaps we're not bordering on warm-summer Med climate, but it's still not a typical oceanic climate either at this latitude. The southeast of England is becoming increasingly dry both annually and specifically from April - September. It's clearly getting warmer as well. We're expecting 32-33C somewhere in the southeast on both Monday and Tuesday. 

952377566_ScreenShot2020-09-12at15_16_31.jpg.a889bdce5d9008c67b4f98b880ea7700.jpg

1029689786_ScreenShot2020-09-12at16_49_07.thumb.jpg.a81319ae3f1d6c5cd1ed5b9cc34ebc34.jpg

1438217870_ScreenShot2020-09-12at11_53_54.thumb.jpg.d5907390338eabc93ecb285c961e2020.jpg

 

So you think a 39C reading is completely out of the question in July/August, when we are still getting 30C+ in mid September as well. Despite the sunlight intensity having declined massively already this time of year at 51N.

Also, where is all the rain and overcast weather? Apparently it always rains and is cold here, even in summer. Like I have previously said, it's the winter period (Dec - Feb) that gives London and southern England a bad rep in terms of weather. But even then it is ridiculously mild for such a northern latitude.

And no, we don't have to protect every palm here like you say. CIDP and Washies do fine unprotected. 

Edited by UK_Palms

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Texyn
16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I am around 31 miles inland from the south coast, meaning there is no coastal influence in winter or summer here. Central London however is only about 25 miles inland from the coast. They are marginally closer. Most of East London is within 20 miles of the coast. Combined with their proximity to the Thames estuary as well, it helps to moderate temperatures in winter, which is why central and east London are warmer in winter. Although London is generally warmer, especially in winter, due to the urban heat island effect, which I clearly do not experience out here in the rural countryside. Although I can still get warmer than London here on any given day, especially during summer.

I see you are getting your UK data from overseas via a German university weather tracker, which makes me very dubious, especially since the time and date isn't even shown on that map. For all I know, it could be showing 11am temperatures. I guess I should take those recordings as gospel, over my own climatic data recorded here in my own back yard. Somehow I don't think so. I also know your interpolated map is off by at least 7F because the official Met Station at Heathrow recorded 100F on 31st July and Kew recorded 99F. Yet the map you attached is only showing 93F for the Heathrow area and 94F for Kew? Unless you are suggesting the Met Office's own verified recordings are incorrect by 6-7F...? :hmm: 

Also, Heathrow clearly does not have a summer precipitation peak. If that was the case, the southeast of England in general wouldn't be experiencing major summer droughts over the past 3-4 years. I mean the 5 driest months since the year 2010 have all occurred between spring and summer. The 5 wettest months have all occurred during winter. There are clearly large spikes in precipitation from November - February and big declines in precipitation from April - September. The period from May - June is especially dry nowadays. I know, since I actually live here.

 

Nobody has questioned southern Italy being warmer and sunnier than the UK. But since you keep mentioning it, we're now into mid September here in southern England, but where is all this rainfall....? I can't see any in the extended forecast. But we're supposed to be 'gloomy', wet and cold. Yet it looks pretty warm and dry for a coastal island at 51N in autumn/fall now. Perhaps we're not bordering on warm-summer Med climate, but it's still not a typical oceanic climate either at this latitude. The southeast of England is becoming increasingly dry both annually and specifically from April - September. It's clearly getting warmer as well. We're expecting 32-33C somewhere in the southeast on both Monday and Tuesday. 

952377566_ScreenShot2020-09-12at15_16_31.jpg.a889bdce5d9008c67b4f98b880ea7700.jpg

1029689786_ScreenShot2020-09-12at16_49_07.thumb.jpg.a81319ae3f1d6c5cd1ed5b9cc34ebc34.jpg

1438217870_ScreenShot2020-09-12at11_53_54.thumb.jpg.d5907390338eabc93ecb285c961e2020.jpg

 

So you think a 39C reading is completely out of the question in July/August, when we are still getting 30C+ in mid September as well. Despite the sunlight intensity having declined massively already this time of year at 51N.

Also, where is all the rain and overcast weather? Apparently it always rains and is cold here, even in summer. Like I have previously said, it's the winter period (Dec - Feb) that gives London and southern England a bad rep in terms of weather. But even then it is ridiculously mild for such a northern latitude.

And no, we don't have to protect every palm here like you say. CIDP and Washies do fine unprotected. 

Seriously, I'm sick of your utter bullshit you're posting.

You are right about that London is warmer in winter and at night due to the UHI effect, though it doesn't change the daily highs much:

https://www.cibse.org/getattachment/Networks/Groups/Resilient-Cities/Past-Events-and-Presentations/presentation3-Kolokotroni.pdf.aspx

The only reason London is so dry is due to the effects of the Dry Epoch. Once the Dry Epoch is over, in 25-30 years or so from now, London, and the UK will return back to its natural, cool and wet climactic state. The same applies to the rest of Europe, with the Italian South having a Wet Epoch for the time being. This map was from 2pm; I'm not trying to say that the London Met Office stations are overexposed, though it does reflect the true temperatures in the countryside. Heathrow has 41 mm of rain in February with 44 mm falling on average in July, according to Met Office. The Italian South has lots of lush, green, subtropical landscapes, where TROPICAL plants grow OUTSIDE the tropics, without human intervention, unlike the heathlands where palms are taken indoors in winter people like to pass off as Med forests:

 

SS2727473.jpg

italysubtropicalforest.jpg

orangeorchard.jpg

italyoakforest.jpg

palmtrees.jpg

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UK_Palms
10 hours ago, Texyn said:

Seriously, I'm sick of your utter bullshit you're posting.

Bit rich, judging by some of your recent climatic posts on here. I certainly don't profess to be a saint myself, but at the same time people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones pal. You were recently claiming that southern Italy has similar winter weather to the tropical regions of Australia, Mexico and India. So do me a favour. 

10 hours ago, Texyn said:

The only reason London is so dry is due to the effects of the Dry Epoch. Once the Dry Epoch is over, in 25-30 years or so from now, London, and the UK will return back to its natural, cool and wet climactic state. The same applies to the rest of Europe, with the Italian South having a Wet Epoch for the time being. 

At first I thought you were just trolling a bit, but I actually think you genuinely believe this crap. I think you're reading too much into this whole 'dry epoch' stuff and nobody, including yourself, can predict what the increase/decrease in temperatures and precipitation will be like, 25-30 years from now. We're currently in uncharted waters right now in regards to greenhouse emissions, ozone depletion and changes to weather patterns/ocean currents. One thing is for sure however, it is getting progressively warmer and drier in northwestern Europe. Although that could reverse itself in the coming years. However, nobody can say with certainty what the long term prognosis will be. Most people would take your 'dry epoch' theory with a pinch of salt.

10 hours ago, Texyn said:

Heathrow has 41 mm of rain in February with 44 mm falling on average in July, according to Met Office. The Italian South has lots of lush, green, subtropical landscapes, where TROPICAL plants grow OUTSIDE the tropics, without human intervention, unlike the heathlands where palms are taken indoors in winter people like to pass off as Med forests:

If you look at the long-term climatic data for Heathrow, via the Met Office specifically, there is clearly a precipitation spike from October - January. That is the wettest period by far and all 4 of those months are wetter than any of the other 8 months. But again, that is the long-term data. I'm not sure how relevant that is anymore, looking at the data from the past 5 years. There has clearly been a climatic shift here. Annual precipitation is down in general, but winter rainfall amounts have increased dramatically, while spring/summer rainfall has clearly declined massively. 

Heathrow driest months (1948 - present)

1.) August 1995 - 0.3mm (0.01 inches)

2.) June 2018 - 0.4mm (0.01 inches) *0.0mm recorded here at GU3

3.) May 2020 - 2.0mm (0.07 inches) *0.0mm recorded here at GU3

I can't be bothered to post up the wettest months as well, but the 5 wettest are all between October - January. 

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UK_Palms

Strong Mediterranean influence at play this week as the southeast of England get's a big heat injection and continuation of the dry, sunny theme of late. No sign of any rainfall any time soon either. It's still pretty dry here and my county is going onto fire watch again for this coming week.

That's not typically the forecast you would expect to see for mid September at 51N on a coastal island... two consecutive days of 31C and a number of subsequent days in the mid 20's C too. Balls to the wall sunshine this coming week as well. Seems autumn/fall could be drier than average too looking at the long term Met forecast. :bummed: 

I hit 28C / 82F here on Sunday and watered everything heavily in preparation for the week ahead...

1815104839_ScreenShot2020-09-14at04_08_59.thumb.jpg.f4e8be4e3b8e6938794322b78d175a31.jpg

 

1336505331_ScreenShot2020-09-14at04_12_11.thumb.jpg.d0a46a5fcf17772be2ba326f89566ef5.jpg

 

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Texyn
10 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Bit rich, judging by some of your recent climatic posts on here. I certainly don't profess to be a saint myself, but at the same time people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones pal. You were recently claiming that southern Italy has similar winter weather to the tropical regions of Australia, Mexico and India. So do me a favour. 

At first I thought you were just trolling a bit, but I actually think you genuinely believe this crap. I think you're reading too much into this whole 'dry epoch' stuff and nobody, including yourself, can predict what the increase/decrease in temperatures and precipitation will be like, 25-30 years from now. We're currently in uncharted waters right now in regards to greenhouse emissions, ozone depletion and changes to weather patterns/ocean currents. One thing is for sure however, it is getting progressively warmer and drier in northwestern Europe. Although that could reverse itself in the coming years. However, nobody can say with certainty what the long term prognosis will be. Most people would take your 'dry epoch' theory with a pinch of salt.

If you look at the long-term climatic data for Heathrow, via the Met Office specifically, there is clearly a precipitation spike from October - January. That is the wettest period by far and all 4 of those months are wetter than any of the other 8 months. But again, that is the long-term data. I'm not sure how relevant that is anymore, looking at the data from the past 5 years. There has clearly been a climatic shift here. Annual precipitation is down in general, but winter rainfall amounts have increased dramatically, while spring/summer rainfall has clearly declined massively. 

Heathrow driest months (1948 - present)

1.) August 1995 - 0.3mm (0.01 inches)

2.) June 2018 - 0.4mm (0.01 inches) *0.0mm recorded here at GU3

3.) May 2020 - 2.0mm (0.07 inches) *0.0mm recorded here at GU3

I can't be bothered to post up the wettest months as well, but the 5 wettest are all between October - January. 

I wish I could downvote your bullshit. How many times do I have to tell you: the ONLY reason the UK is unusually dry is because of the Dry Epoch, and 5 years of precipitation data is NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF A CLIMATE SHIFT. The origin of this Dry Epoch lies with a climate cycle known as the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, which, in a warm phase, as we are in now, causes precipitation over Western Europe to be below normal, thus resulting in the Dry Epoch. Once the pattern changes, the UK, and the rest of Europe will return to the cooler, wetter,  natural climactic state without any drought. And at its natural climactic state, the Italian South is quite warm, so warm, that locations as far north and inland as Tuscany had near 365 day growing seasons, as proven by records from the Etruscan cultures, who lived in the area during the natural climactic state. Such Dry Epoches appear at different continents, at different times; in the 1930s, for example, it was the US South that was affected, during the Dry Epoch, with even Florida being as dry as Southern California. For more information about the link between the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation and precipitation, see this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/atlantic-multidecadal-oscillation

Did you miss the part where I said that those forest pics of the Italian South were ALL NATURAL? Yes, those are WILD palm trees, and evergreen mesic savannas growing thoroughly in the Italian South, not too dissimilar to what is seen in Tropical India. If the Italian South had cool winters like you claim, then these wouldn't exist.

 

Edited by Texyn

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LivistonaFan
On 9/13/2020 at 11:18 AM, Texyn said:

Seriously, I'm sick of your utter bullshit you're posting.

You are right about that London is warmer in winter and at night due to the UHI effect, though it doesn't change the daily highs much:

https://www.cibse.org/getattachment/Networks/Groups/Resilient-Cities/Past-Events-and-Presentations/presentation3-Kolokotroni.pdf.aspx

The only reason London is so dry is due to the effects of the Dry Epoch. Once the Dry Epoch is over, in 25-30 years or so from now, London, and the UK will return back to its natural, cool and wet climactic state. The same applies to the rest of Europe, with the Italian South having a Wet Epoch for the time being. This map was from 2pm; I'm not trying to say that the London Met Office stations are overexposed, though it does reflect the true temperatures in the countryside. Heathrow has 41 mm of rain in February with 44 mm falling on average in July, according to Met Office. The Italian South has lots of lush, green, subtropical landscapes, where TROPICAL plants grow OUTSIDE the tropics, without human intervention, unlike the heathlands where palms are taken indoors in winter people like to pass off as Med forests:

 

SS2727473.jpg

italysubtropicalforest.jpg

orangeorchard.jpg

italyoakforest.jpg

palmtrees.jpg

Can you please share the exact location of which each picture was taken? Picture number 1 and 4 seem plausible for Southern Italy,  I wouldn't even be shocked if they were taken in Southern France.

Picture number 3 seems to be one of these cheap wall paper pictures. Of course there are Citrus Trees in Southern Italy, but this setting is quite doubtable for a commercial cultivation. 

Now talking about picture 2... Come on... This is a place 6 ° off the equator, maybe 16°, but no way at 36°N. The Coconut trees I saw in Queensland at 26°S in general didn't look as good as those of your picture. Ask e.g.@Daryl

Even northern Sydney has considerably warmer winters than you and there aren't many success stories regarding cocos nucifera. @gtsteve would agree, I reckon. 

 

Hats off to @UK_Palms He did at least try to choose somewhat realistic pictures (admittedly some where of locations 1500 km farther south). 

How can you try to take a random photo of a scenery in e.g. Indonesia and claim it is a forest in Southern Italy? I mean several million people have been to Sicily, Calabria etc. quite often (including me). I am currently not at home, but if I was I am sure I would find your photo sooner or later on the Internet. Maybe it is time for you @sipalms

Final question : Do you even live in Italy? Or did you think that you could do the same as @UK_Palms after his fake was revealed? And in comparison to your posts about the climate of Southern Italy his claims seem very realistic. 

But in my opinion we don't need that many people who are fantasizing about their climates and proving their claims with false photos. Maybe some others will agree. 

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Vancouver_Palm-Riviera
15 hours ago, Texyn said:

I wish I could downvote your bullshit. How many times do I have to tell you: the ONLY reason the UK is unusually dry is because of the Dry Epoch, and 5 years of precipitation data is NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF A CLIMATE SHIFT. The origin of this Dry Epoch lies with a climate cycle known as the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, which, in a warm phase, as we are in now, causes precipitation over Western Europe to be below normal, thus resulting in the Dry Epoch. Once the pattern changes, the UK, and the rest of Europe will return to the cooler, wetter,  natural climactic state without any drought. And at its natural climactic state, the Italian South is quite warm, so warm, that locations as far north and inland as Tuscany had near 365 day growing seasons, as proven by records from the Etruscan cultures, who lived in the area during the natural climactic state. Such Dry Epoches appear at different continents, at different times; in the 1930s, for example, it was the US South that was affected, during the Dry Epoch, with even Florida being as dry as Southern California. For more information about the link between the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation and precipitation, see this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/atlantic-multidecadal-oscillation

Did you miss the part where I said that those forest pics of the Italian South were ALL NATURAL? Yes, those are WILD palm trees, and evergreen mesic savannas growing thoroughly in the Italian South, not too dissimilar to what is seen in Tropical India. If the Italian South had cool winters like you claim, then these wouldn't exist.

 

Hey you are not correct. UK Palms is correct. Be gone with you! :violin:

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sipalms
6 hours ago, LivistonaFan said:

Can you please share the exact location of which each picture was taken? Picture number 1 and 4 seem plausible for Southern Italy,  I wouldn't even be shocked if they were taken in Southern France.

Picture number 3 seems to be one of these cheap wall paper pictures. Of course there are Citrus Trees in Southern Italy, but this setting is quite doubtable for a commercial cultivation. 

Now talking about picture 2... Come on... This is a place 6 ° off the equator, maybe 16°, but no way at 36°N. The Coconut trees I saw in Queensland at 26°S in general didn't look as good as those of your picture. Ask e.g.@Daryl

Even northern Sydney has considerably warmer winters than you and there aren't many success stories regarding cocos nucifera. @gtsteve would agree, I reckon. 

 

Hats off to @UK_Palms He did at least try to choose somewhat realistic pictures (admittedly some where of locations 1500 km farther south). 

How can you try to take a random photo of a scenery in e.g. Indonesia and claim it is a forest in Southern Italy? I mean several million people have been to Sicily, Calabria etc. quite often (including me). I am currently not at home, but if I was I am sure I would find your photo sooner or later on the Internet. Maybe it is time for you @sipalms

Final question : Do you even live in Italy? Or did you think that you could do the same as @UK_Palms after his fake was revealed? And in comparison to your posts about the climate of Southern Italy his claims seem very realistic. 

But in my opinion we don't need that many people who are fantasizing about their climates and proving their claims with false photos. Maybe some others will agree. 

You're right, these photos purportedly of Southern Italy are so BS that it's not even worth the time searching for where they actually are. But, credit where credit is due, @Texyn has tried to follow @UK_Palms playbook to the T...

1) Make a wildly exaggerated claim about your local climate, topography, vegetation and what palms are growing there

2) Repeat above claim/s multiple times on several threads, so that you feel like it is being noticed and respected (when it is not) 

Now comes the best bit:

3) Post up several pictures at once to back up your claims, to do this, you need to sneak in several pics from foreign countries or regions, amongst pics of your own region, in such a way that it is seamless and hardly noticeable.

4) DO NOT (I repeat) do not let anyone question your claims. If they do, you must either a) get into a huge biffy about it then c) post more false pics to cover the first batch.

Point (3) requires a lot of skill. I would have to say that UKPalms has so far proved to be better than Texyn at this, as at least UKPalms didn't try sneaking a pic of a coconut palm in amongst some pics of Surrey (and Turkey and France), although going by the sounds of the climate in Surrey/Southeast UK, it won't be long before you will be able to walk out the back door of your detached house and climb up a coconut tree and get some fresh coconut milk to enjoy in your Piña Colada! After all, temps of 30+ have been recorded in the UK this week. Mind blowing stuff. 

By the way, it'll be interesting to watch the sunshine stats for the southeastern UK between now and December 31. Rumour has it according to UKpalms that they're going to record well in excess of 2000 sunshine hours this year...

Edited by sipalms
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sipalms
On 8/3/2020 at 11:23 AM, UK_Palms said:

Well the sunshine hours are definitely increasing here, in conjunction with a decline in precipitation, especially during spring and summer. Spring 2020, just gone, saw something like 650 hours of sunshine for the UK on average. I think London racked up 700 hours. On the current trajectory, London and the southeast may finish the year on 2,300 sunshine hours. Generally speaking, the south coast of England see's 1,900 hours each year and has seen as much as 2,200 before. But the bone dry, sunny spring of this year may set a few records for annual sunshine hours too. Either way it is definitely getting sunnier here with less precipitation across the year, looking at the trends. Although winter rainfall is increasing. Again that suggests we are moving towards a Mediterranean climate here. 

An update on the above claim. Provisional recorded sunshine data for August 2020 for London Heathrow is in.

This means we can find out the latest rolling total sunshine hours for 12 months to date to give us an idea of whether London will actually get near 2000 sunshine hours in this supposedly record breaking year.

Year  Month    Recorded Sunshine hours at London Heathrow (Source: Met Office)
2019  Sep       156.8
2019  Oct       74.0
2019  Nov      51.3
2019  Dec      56.2
2020  Jan       50.3
2020  Feb      62.0
2020  Mar     148.0
2020  Apr      235.4
2020  May    308.6
2020  Jun     174.9
2020  Jul      171.2
2020  Aug    161.8
Total              1650.50

As we can see, well short of 2000 hours. Well short.

So, for London to get to 2000 hours of sunshine in 2020, 687.7 sunshine hours will be required for Sept to Dec. 

What I have done below for interest's sake, is averaged the sunshine hours for Sep/Oct/Nov/Dec, for the last decade 2009-2019. This is to allow for the so called 'definitely getting sunnier here' and the 'We are moving towards a Mediterranean climate here' claims.

Here are the sunshine stats for the last decade;

           Sep           Oct           Nov           Dec
2009 137.3 84.7 62.4 60.3
2010 128.7 104.0 50.0 18.5
2011 161.2 140.4 52.5 60.6
2012 178.9 85.6 75.4 58.0
2013 118.9 89.6 80.4 51.3
2014 134.6 103.8 51.1 71.6
2015 162.3 94.2 27.7 35.0
2016 122.1 105.6 77.4 55.1
2017 120.1 84.6 66.7 43.8
2018 195.0 137.0 72.9 40.3
2019 156.8 74.0 51.3 56.2
Average 146.9 100.3 60.7 50.1

So this means, if the average sunshine hours from the last decade between Sept and Dec are actually recorded at Heathrow between now and the end of the year, London will end up on 1670 sunshine hours.

And now, here's the killer. What if we took the sunniest Sep/Oct/Nov/Dec on record from the last decade, and used these for the rest of 2020?

Here they are:

Sep(2018)   Oct(2011) Nov(2013) Dec (2014) Total
195.0 140.4 80.4 71.6 487.4

So, 487.4 + the recorded 1312.2 hours so far recorded in 2020 = 1,799.6 hours.

Still over 200 sunshine hours short of the magic 2000, let alone the 2300 above!

I'm sorry @UK_Palms but there is no way on earth that you'll see London get near 2000 hours in the medium term, if ever. It's to do with both your latitude and cloudy climate. Sadly, this is most certainly nothing remotely like a Mediterranean or subtropical climate. No amount of Spring / Summer / Autumn heatwaves can make up for a dismal, damp, grey, cool, moist, depressing winter unfortunately.

This in turn, is why vineyards and other sun and warmth loving indicator crops are rare in the UK. For example wine production in the UK is just 425 tonnes per annum, it is number 67 out of the 73 countries that are recorded as producing wine. To give you an idea, Italy (True Mediterranean) produced 4,796,900 tonnes. thats eleven thousand times more than the UK. Likewise,  New Zealand (barely mediterranean/subtropical) at No. 15 out of 73, producing 320,400 tonnes, which is 753x more than the UK.

I mean, plenty of temperate oceanic climates can get over 2000 hours of sunshine per year. Here in Christchurch we get 2141 average sunshine hours per year, and the cloudiest month (June) gets on average 117 hours, that's more than London's typical Nov and Dec combined! By no means I would call my location 'sunny' compared to southern France/Italy/California etc. Even though vineyards are aplenty in this region of New Zealand.

Another thing I noticed is that in December 2010 just 18.5 hours of sunshine were recorded in London! Amazing. Equivalent of just 2 sunny days in a month.

Stay tuned on this thread for more updates on the Sunshine stats as we go into the end of 2020 and winter in the UK, and more provisional results are released.

Edited by sipalms
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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, sipalms said:

By the way, it'll be interesting to watch the sunshine stats for the southeastern UK between now and December 31. Rumour has it according to UKpalms that they're going to record well in excess of 2000 sunshine hours this year...

Not looking for an argument or anything, but Chichester, Bognor, Selsey, Shanklin, Ventnor etc all average close to 2,000 hours annually. That's going by the long term stats. With the decline in annual precipitation in recent years, especially during late spring-early summer (when days are at their longest) their annual sunshine hours are going to be higher, exceeding 2,000 hours. Whether or not that will definitely be the case this year, I can't say for sure, and we will have to see come December 31st. I'm pretty optimistic for the figures this year though. 

On a side note, Ventnor and Eastbourne are still sitting at 20C at 4am right now. Very mild for mid-September at 51N, given the nights are almost 12 hours long now. Those coastal regions won't be hitting 30C on Tuesday though, unlike the inland regions. But those inland maximums are going to be dependent on cloud cover though. Talk of overnight minimums in the 21-22C range for some places potentially, if it gets hot enough before clouding over. That would be practically unheard of this far north of the equator in mid-September.

5 minutes ago, sipalms said:

This in turn, is why vineyards and other sun and warmth loving indicator crops are rare in the UK. For example wine production in the UK is just 425 tonnes per annum, it is number 67 out of the 73 countries that are recorded as producing wine. To give you an idea, Italy (True Mediterranean) produced 4,796,900 tonnes. thats eleven thousand times more than the UK. Likewise,  New Zealand (barely mediterranean/subtropical) at No. 15 out of 73, producing 320,400 tonnes, which is 753x more than the UK.

While I agree with most of what you said, it's also all relative to the location. The southeast of England has pretty good grape growing potential, but the rest of the UK as a whole is pretty abysmal. You won't find many, if any, grapes growing in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, northern England, the midlands etc. But here in the southeast we have a fair few vineyards and production is increasing year on year, in part due to warmer and sunnier summers thanks to climate change. It's a completely different climate down here though, compared to up north. 

I have a pretty big vineyard in my village funny enough. Well, it's actually on the outskirts of my village, up in the valley at higher elevation, but the vineyard is visible from my street when I look up into the hills. It's not a small vineyard either by any means and possibly one of the biggest in the country. Obviously I still recognise that even here it is nowhere near on par, in terms of production, with most of the other wine producing regions of the world. But we do well enough, given our latitude. Southern England is probably the furthest away from the equator that you can reliably grow grapes, right? I don't think there's anywhere else above 50N where grapevines will routinely survive winters, or produce each summer. I could be wrong though. 48N in Germany being the second furthest from the equator, I would have thought.

Here's my local vineyard...

greyfriars-barrels-outside-cave.thumb.jpg.9b47ce56fb910d8c00459af62561fc30.jpg

IMG_4654.thumb.jpg.b6c5f972fad012dbd055f3ffb3490196.jpg

1256d7_3d91f3169cfd41329718a7d727475a19_mv2.thumb.jpg.814fd010f5d421f278550156ecef48e4.jpg

Surrey-vineyard.thumb.jpg.987846b96890ccc2191f30c793378378.jpg

IMG-20181005-WA0015.jpg.ef76eda1671313e4e85d5e0081c37f69.jpg

EXANbdRWoAA2Hdm.jpg.5e1bbf1fd416209538cbc11a3ba5a09b.jpg

1521716686-surrey-vineyard.thumb.jpg.28a9f1b5e2fc7a21af3428094efb652c.jpg

Here are some photos of my own grapes this year, although they are not in the best spot in terms of sunlight. It's also pitch black here right now too.

thumbnail_image0-3.thumb.jpg.2e3e973a51a39ab3e8448d831cd6d44c.jpg

thumbnail_image1-3.thumb.jpg.fa44e87f2ea5bd3e0b3bd411464494e0.jpg

It's also warm enough for me to grow olives here. I have a number of them this year, although the parrots/parakeets and blackbirds have taken most of them when they were small. I gave up trying to protect them a few weeks back.

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sipalms

@UK_Palms Thanks for the lovely pictures of vineyards in England (although we will actually never know if they are in England or not, will we? Could be Italy or France.)

It's amazing how you defer the point about terrible sunshine stats that the UK gets by swinging the conversation over to vineyards and blasting photos out there.

Did you know just about anyone can grow a grapevine. There are vineyards in the north of England as you say. But they're generally just for looks. Even in southern Ontario, Canada where they get lows down to -20 or more, there are some amazing vineyards. But they get a heck of a lot more sun which is why they yield more which makes them commercially viable. Other than the Novelty factor of cellar door type boutique wineries like the ones you've uploaded pics of, the UK just doesn't get the sunshine to make the refined wines at scale, that people actually want to drink. 

I would be interested to know why you have back tracked on London getting 2300 hours all of a sudden? You specifically mentioned London in your quote below, and most of your focus in proclaiming UK's exotic climate has been in relation to London where the climate zone is basically 10b going on 11a if you were to be believed. Here's the quote again for your interest;

On 8/3/2020 at 11:23 AM, UK_Palms said:

On the current trajectory, London and the southeast may finish the year on 2,300 sunshine hours. Generally speaking, the south coast of England see's 1,900 hours each year and has seen as much as 2,200 before. But the bone dry, sunny spring of this year may set a few records for annual sunshine hours too. Either way it is definitely getting sunnier here with less precipitation across the year, looking at the trends. Although winter rainfall is increasing. Again that suggests we are moving towards a Mediterranean climate here. Not that we are one right now.

For the record, I repeat, London will not, has not, and likely could not achieve 2000 hours of sunshine per annum, ever.

You've cleverly diverted the conversation back to the south coast but sadly the south coast won't have the temp stats that London gets and also I would argue that many places on the south coast would have even more cloudy weather due to the oceanic influence.

Anyhow, London and most of Southeast England, at 1600-1650 hours of sunshine per annum is pretty crap to be honest. Definitely not Med/Subtropic.

Edited by sipalms
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Texyn
On 9/14/2020 at 1:15 PM, Vancouver_Palm-Riviera said:

Hey you are not correct. UK Palms is correct. Be gone with you! :violin:

Well I was clearly correct as it seems to be so.

On 9/14/2020 at 6:38 PM, UK_Palms said:

Not looking for an argument or anything, but Chichester, Bognor, Selsey, Shanklin, Ventnor etc all average close to 2,000 hours annually. That's going by the long term stats. With the decline in annual precipitation in recent years, especially during late spring-early summer (when days are at their longest) their annual sunshine hours are going to be higher, exceeding 2,000 hours. Whether or not that will definitely be the case this year, I can't say for sure, and we will have to see come December 31st. I'm pretty optimistic for the figures this year though. 

On a side note, Ventnor and Eastbourne are still sitting at 20C at 4am right now. Very mild for mid-September at 51N, given the nights are almost 12 hours long now. Those coastal regions won't be hitting 30C on Tuesday though, unlike the inland regions. But those inland maximums are going to be dependent on cloud cover though. Talk of overnight minimums in the 21-22C range for some places potentially, if it gets hot enough before clouding over. That would be practically unheard of this far north of the equator in mid-September.

While I agree with most of what you said, it's also all relative to the location. The southeast of England has pretty good grape growing potential, but the rest of the UK as a whole is pretty abysmal. You won't find many, if any, grapes growing in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, northern England, the midlands etc. But here in the southeast we have a fair few vineyards and production is increasing year on year, in part due to warmer and sunnier summers thanks to climate change. It's a completely different climate down here though, compared to up north. 

I have a pretty big vineyard in my village funny enough. Well, it's actually on the outskirts of my village, up in the valley at higher elevation, but the vineyard is visible from my street when I look up into the hills. It's not a small vineyard either by any means and possibly one of the biggest in the country. Obviously I still recognise that even here it is nowhere near on par, in terms of production, with most of the other wine producing regions of the world. But we do well enough, given our latitude. Southern England is probably the furthest away from the equator that you can reliably grow grapes, right? I don't think there's anywhere else above 50N where grapevines will routinely survive winters, or produce each summer. I could be wrong though. 48N in Germany being the second furthest from the equator, I would have thought.

Here's my local vineyard...

greyfriars-barrels-outside-cave.thumb.jpg.9b47ce56fb910d8c00459af62561fc30.jpg

IMG_4654.thumb.jpg.b6c5f972fad012dbd055f3ffb3490196.jpg

1256d7_3d91f3169cfd41329718a7d727475a19_mv2.thumb.jpg.814fd010f5d421f278550156ecef48e4.jpg

Surrey-vineyard.thumb.jpg.987846b96890ccc2191f30c793378378.jpg

IMG-20181005-WA0015.jpg.ef76eda1671313e4e85d5e0081c37f69.jpg

EXANbdRWoAA2Hdm.jpg.5e1bbf1fd416209538cbc11a3ba5a09b.jpg

1521716686-surrey-vineyard.thumb.jpg.28a9f1b5e2fc7a21af3428094efb652c.jpg

Here are some photos of my own grapes this year, although they are not in the best spot in terms of sunlight. It's also pitch black here right now too.

thumbnail_image0-3.thumb.jpg.2e3e973a51a39ab3e8448d831cd6d44c.jpg

thumbnail_image1-3.thumb.jpg.fa44e87f2ea5bd3e0b3bd411464494e0.jpg

It's also warm enough for me to grow olives here. I have a number of them this year, although the parrots/parakeets and blackbirds have taken most of them when they were small. I gave up trying to protect them a few weeks back.

In the Italian South, olives, and grapes can grow like weeds, unlike in the UK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive

According to the Met Office, it was 64F in Eastbourne at 4 AM: 

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/observations/u100y9uwn

Hopefully someone will close this thread because I'm fucking sick of your deluded bull. :wacko:

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PALM MOD

Good job @sipalms - it's nice when things can get worked out without censoring or deleting - and when the facts are there for all to see and let the reader decide. 

Lesson learned - don't believe everything you read on the internet - even PalmTalk. 

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UK_Palms
26 minutes ago, Texyn said:

Well I was clearly correct as it seems to be so.

In the Italian South, olives, and grapes can grow like weeds, unlike in the UK:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive

According to the Met Office, it was 64F in Eastbourne at 4 AM: 

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/observations/u100y9uwn

Hopefully someone will close this thread because I'm fucking sick of your deluded bullshit. :wacko:

Sorry Eastbourne was 2C cooler than I said, depending on what source you look at (I was not using the Met Office at the time).

Ventnor however, the other place that I mentioned...

4C6B3473-4D9D-462F-BDA6-BDD1C695CDB6.thumb.jpeg.f7edd3b351085b02719264c55241ad1c.jpeg

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Texyn
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

Sorry Eastbourne was 2C cooler than I said, depending on what source you look at (I was not using the Met Office at the time).

Ventnor however, the other place that I mentioned...

4C6B3473-4D9D-462F-BDA6-BDD1C695CDB6.thumb.jpeg.f7edd3b351085b02719264c55241ad1c.jpeg

Did you miss the point about olives?

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Texyn
14 hours ago, LivistonaFan said:

Can you please share the exact location of which each picture was taken? Picture number 1 and 4 seem plausible for Southern Italy,  I wouldn't even be shocked if they were taken in Southern France.

Picture number 3 seems to be one of these cheap wall paper pictures. Of course there are Citrus Trees in Southern Italy, but this setting is quite doubtable for a commercial cultivation. 

Now talking about picture 2... Come on... This is a place 6 ° off the equator, maybe 16°, but no way at 36°N. The Coconut trees I saw in Queensland at 26°S in general didn't look as good as those of your picture. Ask e.g.@Daryl

Even northern Sydney has considerably warmer winters than you and there aren't many success stories regarding cocos nucifera. @gtsteve would agree, I reckon. 

 

Hats off to @UK_Palms He did at least try to choose somewhat realistic pictures (admittedly some where of locations 1500 km farther south). 

How can you try to take a random photo of a scenery in e.g. Indonesia and claim it is a forest in Southern Italy? I mean several million people have been to Sicily, Calabria etc. quite often (including me). I am currently not at home, but if I was I am sure I would find your photo sooner or later on the Internet. Maybe it is time for you @sipalms

Final question : Do you even live in Italy? Or did you think that you could do the same as @UK_Palms after his fake was revealed? And in comparison to your posts about the climate of Southern Italy his claims seem very realistic. 

But in my opinion we don't need that many people who are fantasizing about their climates and proving their claims with false photos. Maybe some others will agree. 

No, these are actual photos of subtropical forests; picture number 2 is a coastal swamp near Agrigento to be exact, and picture 3 is an orange orchard near Caserta. The subtropical swamps may be the most developed, and ubiquitous in southern Sicily, but they are also present in close proximity to the coasts of Palermo, and Messina. I have lived in multiple subtropical places, from Rio di Janeiro to Cape Town, and I live near Noto, and I can tell you that these are all not fake pictures, and that the Italian South is a subtropical paradise.

Edited by Texyn

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sipalms
14 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

thumbnail_image0-3.thumb.jpg.2e3e973a51a39ab3e8448d831cd6d44c.jpg

thumbnail_image1-3.thumb.jpg.fa44e87f2ea5bd3e0b3bd411464494e0.jpg

 

Sorry but I can't help myself.

I have reason to believe that the above grapevines are not your own and these are more false pics.

There are two reasons why, but before I bother explaining, why don't you prove me wrong by uploading a photo of the same vines with of one of your potted Queens in front of them?

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greysrigging

And there is a thread here by our southern Italian member too, peddling the Tropical Southern Italy line.... photos and all
 https://www.city-data.com/forum/weather/3000555-strange-unusual-climates-5.html#post59170749
This is the best one...
"The Italian South is so lucky to have lush, subtropical, ever-green landscapes:" with this pic
Subtropical_semi-evergreen_seasonal_forest_in_Northern_Thailand.thumb.jpg.4b0d59bcca10cafca12ba53efa29fbf6.jpg
But.... you guessed it.... The photo  is from Northern Thailand 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_Thailand.JPG

 

Edited by greysrigging
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