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Spring/Summer drought in southern England and northwestern Europe.

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LivistonaFan
5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

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It seems your meadows got green again:greenthumb:

 

6 hours ago, sipalms said:

Washies also have to be huge to start flowering and seeding and need reliable desert or subtropical heat.

That seems a little exaggerated to me. Even in the elevated back country of Nice (France) there are some Washingtonia seeding quite profusely on a yearly base and I wouldn't classify that climate as a desert or subtropical one. Here is a Washingtonia at nearly 500 meters of elevation:

DSC_2933.thumb.JPG.fbbdba6f049d0b2940ae8da141014b14.JPGDSC_2934.thumb.jpg.25e9539bb6616570aa1984d80c80d4c6.jpg

Edited by LivistonaFan
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UK_Palms
15 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Is there a long term drying and warming trend in the SE of the UK ? In say the last 30 years . Or since 1950 ? Would be interesting to see some graphs. Parts of SE and SW Australia definiterly showing such trends in say the last 30 years.

There has definitely been a drier trend with decreasing rainfall over the past decade. The rainfall has also become unreliable between April - August. But it varies year on year. 
 

I remember when I was a kid (I’m 27 now), and back when I was at school, break/recess and lunch times were always rained off and we were stuck inside a lot of the time. It used to be quite wet back then and that was only 15-20 years ago. 
 

Nowadays we don’t get much rain in general, not like we used to. Although winters have definitely got wetter with heavier rainfalls, whereas the springs and summers have got significantly drier. The rainfall patterns have definitely changed over the past decade or two. 
 

We also get more extreme heat in summer then we used to, with the 3 hottest temperatures ever recorded being in 2003, 2018 & 2019. So I guess you could say that climate change has played a role here. There has definitely been a warmer, drier trend since the year 2000.
 

Then again it also probably means that we are overdue a wet, cold year... which could be next year...

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SouthSeaNate
12 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Simply not true. Washies have seeded on Tresco and in Torquay. I know the big Filifera's in London and Essex have flowered as well. Maybe not set seed, but flowered. The main reason there isn't really any seeding is because people haven't been growing Washies very long in the UK, so there isn't many big, mature specimens around. Give it another 5 years and there will be quite a few big Washies around that are mature enough to fruit. There are a few decent sized ones now though, which should be ready to seed. They might be worth checking. 

And I have seen plenty of CIDP's carrying seed around London as well, providing there are male and female plants nearby to each other. I have collected and germinated CIDP seed from the south coast and London. I also collected some Filifera seeds in London as well, but I haven't germinated them as I already have two decent sized Filifera and many other Washies.

By the way, are you living in Malta? Or are you in the UK?

 

The biggest Robusta in the UK, which is on Tresco. Flowers every 2 years supposedly. 

 

Give it another couple of years and Washies will be everywhere. Filifera especially seems to do well in the southeast, as does Robusta.

Sorry but you are incorrect. Washingtonias have NEVER flowered in the UK, even that tatty old specimen on Tresco never has (& neither have their CIDP's ever produced seed). Maybe you would like to provide some evidence of these flowers seeds? Other than just posting photos of semi mature Washingtonias that you have taken from other forums. which show no flowers.

And Washingtonias are even less hardy than CIDP's, in the UK climate at least, so they are only "long term" in the very mildest areas, they also need hot summers to flower/fruit, which is why even big ones have not done so in the UK. Phoenix canariensis can produce seed in London & the south coast, but even here it isn't something that happens every year & the seed will take a couple of years to develop, so you need a hot summer/mild winter combination otherwise they will not develop. And please you have not collected filifera seeds in London, that is complete rubbish. 

Yes I live in Malta, but am from the UK, as well you know. Not sure what that has to do with anything, as I still have my house/garden in the UK & have been growing palms for  over 25 years & have been a member of the European Palm Society all that time too, so happen to know where these large specimen palms are & know for a fact that Washingtonias have never flowered, let alone produced seed in the UK. Again you need to provide proof of this, if you are stating otherwise.

Washingtonias will never be "everywhere" in the UK, as I said they are only long term palms in the very mildest locations, that is the reason why you don't see more & bigger specimens, because every few years you will get a cold winter that will kill them elsewhere.

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GottmitAlex
6 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

And Washingtonias are even less hardy than CIDP's, in the UK climate at least, so they are only "long term" in the very mildest areas, they also need hot summers to flower/fruit, which is why even big ones have not done so in the UK. Phoenix canariensis can produce seed in London & the south coast, but even here it isn't something that happens every year & the seed will take a couple of years to develop, so you need a hot summer/mild winter combination otherwise they will not develop. And please you have not collected filifera seeds in London, that is complete rubbish. 

Washingtonias will never be "everywhere" in the UK, as I said they are only long term palms in the very mildest locations, that is the reason why you don't see more & bigger specimens, because every few years you will get a cold winter that will kill them elsewhere.

... Uhh...

 

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NorCalKing
7 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Sorry but you are incorrect. Washingtonias have NEVER flowered in the UK, even that tatty old specimen on Tresco never has (& neither have their CIDP's ever produced seed). Maybe you would like to provide some evidence of these flowers seeds? Other than just posting photos of semi mature Washingtonias that you have taken from other forums. which show no flowers.

And Washingtonias are even less hardy than CIDP's, in the UK climate at least, so they are only "long term" in the very mildest areas, they also need hot summers to flower/fruit, which is why even big ones have not done so in the UK. Phoenix canariensis can produce seed in London & the south coast, but even here it isn't something that happens every year & the seed will take a couple of years to develop, so you need a hot summer/mild winter combination otherwise they will not develop. And please you have not collected filifera seeds in London, that is complete rubbish. 

Yes I live in Malta, but am from the UK, as well you know. Not sure what that has to do with anything, as I still have my house/garden in the UK & have been growing palms for  over 25 years & have been a member of the European Palm Society all that time too, so happen to know where these large specimen palms are & know for a fact that Washingtonias have never flowered, let alone produced seed in the UK. Again you need to provide proof of this, if you are stating otherwise.

Washingtonias will never be "everywhere" in the UK, as I said they are only long term palms in the very mildest locations, that is the reason why you don't see more & bigger specimens, because every few years you will get a cold winter that will kill them elsewhere.

Always love when a user with intimate knowledge of the UK brings a sane perspective regarding palms in that region. I've had to completely block the user you are responding to, as all he does is spew BS. 

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UK_Palms
4 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Sorry but you are incorrect. Washingtonias have NEVER flowered in the UK, even that tatty old specimen on Tresco never has (& neither have their CIDP's ever produced seed). Maybe you would like to provide some evidence of these flowers seeds? Other than just posting photos of semi mature Washingtonias that you have taken from other forums. which show no flowers.

And Washingtonias are even less hardy than CIDP's, in the UK climate at least, so they are only "long term" in the very mildest areas, they also need hot summers to flower/fruit, which is why even big ones have not done so in the UK. Phoenix canariensis can produce seed in London & the south coast, but even here it isn't something that happens every year & the seed will take a couple of years to develop, so you need a hot summer/mild winter combination otherwise they will not develop. And please you have not collected filifera seeds in London, that is complete rubbish. 

Yes I live in Malta, but am from the UK, as well you know. Not sure what that has to do with anything, as I still have my house/garden in the UK & have been growing palms for  over 25 years & have been a member of the European Palm Society all that time too, so happen to know where these large specimen palms are & know for a fact that Washingtonias have never flowered, let alone produced seed in the UK. Again you need to provide proof of this, if you are stating otherwise.

Washingtonias will never be "everywhere" in the UK, as I said they are only long term palms in the very mildest locations, that is the reason why you don't see more & bigger specimens, because every few years you will get a cold winter that will kill them elsewhere.

No, you are the one that is mistaken. The Robusta at Chelsea Physic garden in London has flowered. It used to look like crap when it was smaller, after a few bad winters, but now it looking great and putting on decent size. It takes the winters like they are nothing now.

The Filifera that I collected seed from in 2018 may have been a Filibusta hybrid, located in southeast London. I actually picked up the seeds from the ground beneath the palm. There was quite a lot of them and the palm itself wasn't even that big. Maybe 15-20 feet. It was situated in a front garden but the seeds had dropped onto the pavement/sidewalk. There were Robusta's present on the street as well, but I didn't see any flowering. I would assume the seeds were Filibusta hybrids, unless Washies can self pollenate themselves?

Clearly London has enough summer heat and winter warmth to allow Washies to flower and set seed. Given that some parts of London don't even drop below freezing most years and are getting close to 100F almost every summer these days. In fact London did hit 100F last July. And 99F twice in 2018. And that's going by Met Office recordings. No doubt other parts of London have been hotter, that don't have Met stations nearby.

When I first got into palm growing/collecting, I remember people saying the exact same thing about Chamaerops and CIDP's back then... 'they require hot summers and won't set seed here'. Then low and behold specimens of Chamaerops and CIDP flowered and set seed. It's going to be the same with the Washies here, in the southeast of England at least. They will get bigger as time goes on, and there will be more of them, allowing viable seed to form. Climate change is clearly also playing a part now, with drier, warmer conditions. 

I never said Washingtonia's will be everywhere in the UK. Obviously they won't do well in northern England, or Scotland. But you know full well that I was referring specifically to London and the south coast where they are already popping up everywhere and specimens are getting bigger each year. Robusta's especially are being planted en-masse in London. I went into my local Tesco's supermarket in Guildford and they had tons of Robusta's and CIDP's for sale. I don't see many Trachy's being sold now though...

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UK_Palms
58 minutes ago, NorCalKing said:

Always love when a user with intimate knowledge of the UK brings a sane perspective regarding palms in that region. I've had to completely block the user you are responding to, as all he does is spew BS. 

I love how the user claims to have blocked me, yet he is also in my thread, reading it, and contributing to the climate/palm discussion, but not in a relevant way. Absolutely pathetic.

And the guy he mentions lives in Malta, which is 1,500 miles away from the UK. I am actively growing palms here, right now, including Washies, and recording climatic data. I have been documenting the drought and the effect it might have on palms here. It's easy for people in other locations to say "it's all BS" when you're on the other side of the world and behind a computer screen. How many of you are actually in my neck of the woods, inland in the southeast of England?

Edited by UK_Palms

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sipalms
11 hours ago, LivistonaFan said:

That seems a little exaggerated to me. Even in the elevated back country of Nice (France) there are some Washingtonia seeding quite profusely on a yearly base and I wouldn't classify that climate as a desert or subtropical one. Here is a Washingtonia at nearly 500 meters of elevation:

Okay poor choice of words on my behalf. Let's just say climates with reliable, consistent heat.

Nice, in Southern France, might as well be on a different planet climate wise, compared to southern UK, even at 500m elevation.

My viewpoints come from living in a country that straddles latitudes from the likes of Nantes, France, down to Northern Morocco. Washingtonias are very prevalent here, more so as you get closer to the equator (obviously). However, here in the central south island of NZ, while there are plenty of washingtonias, very few if any flower and set seed, and yet our climate is very similar if not quite a bit warmer than where UK palms is located.

I would be interested to know from a palm point of view, of when washingtonias first flower/seed in terms of their height/size?

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PalmsNC

Next 10 days in the scilly isles. doesnt look like a place for seeding washies

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London

 

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Guildford

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Edited by PalmsNC
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UK_Palms
14 hours ago, LivistonaFan said:

It seems your meadows got green again:greenthumb:

 

That seems a little exaggerated to me. Even in the elevated back country of Nice (France) there are some Washingtonia seeding quite profusely on a yearly base and I wouldn't classify that climate as a desert or subtropical one. Here is a Washingtonia at nearly 500 meters of elevation:

DSC_2933.thumb.JPG.fbbdba6f049d0b2940ae8da141014b14.JPGDSC_2934.thumb.jpg.25e9539bb6616570aa1984d80c80d4c6.jpg

Nice Washie. Would you say that it is a Filibusta hybrid? It looks very Filifera dominant to me, but I think the trunk looks more Robusta. 

And yes, the fields and meadows around here have certainly greened up a bit from the 1.06 inches of rain this June. We're still only on 7.3 inches of rain for the year (2020) to date though. And we're halfway through the year. More than half of our rainfall fell during February. 

We've got a strong Atlantic front over us right now though. Highs of 21C and lows of 13C for the next week or so. We should get a bit more rain as well. At least I'm not having to water stuff every day now.

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UK_Palms

@PalmsNC We're in the midst of an Atlantic cold front coming from the NW. There's usually a couple each summer, interspaced with hotter Saharan air masses coming up from the SE. The current conditions won't stay like this all summer. Temperatures might be below average for about 7-10 days, before a high pressure, Saharan air mass returns, pushing north up through Spain and France. Then we usually have a week of 80-90F temperatures. 

Anyway London and Guildford are still having highs of around 70F and lows of 55F during this 'cold' snap. That's still marginally warmer than San Francisco at this time of year. I mean do Washies even flower and set seed in San Francisco? Or is it too cold there in summer? Genuine question.

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sandgroper

This is who I use,  apart from that I have a thermometer at the base of my coconut palm to tell me what the temperature is there with the artificial protection I put in place for that individual plant. Haven't bothered with it this year as the palm is now above the roof line and is too big to protect so it's on its own and exposed to the elements completely. 

Screenshot_20200630-120951_Chrome.jpg

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James760
9 hours ago, sipalms said:

Okay poor choice of words on my behalf. Let's just say climates with reliable, consistent heat.

Nice, in Southern France, might as well be on a different planet climate wise, compared to southern UK, even at 500m elevation.

My viewpoints come from living in a country that straddles latitudes from the likes of Nantes, France, down to Northern Morocco. Washingtonias are very prevalent here, more so as you get closer to the equator (obviously). However, here in the central south island of NZ, while there are plenty of washingtonias, very few if any flower and set seed, and yet our climate is very similar if not quite a bit warmer than where UK palms is located.

I would be interested to know from a palm point of view, of when washingtonias first flower/seed in terms of their height/size?

I have Washingtonia Robustas in my area flowering with 10 feet of trunk. I'll check to see if they set seed in a month or 2.

I always thought they took about 15+ years or 15 to 20+ feet of trunk to flower & set seed but I was proven wrong this year...

I planted a 5 gallon size i dug up for my uncles house in Moreno Valley, CA back in 2005 & planted it at our old house in Hesperia same year. I have a picture somewhere with my daughter in 2009 I believe & it's still small. Today it has about 15-18 feet of trunk & hasn't flowered yet :(

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sipalms

@UK_Palms, in all honesty, why dont you show Some actual real proof of seed collected beneath washingtonias in the UK? I would genuinely love to see. Given your supposed stifling hot saharan summer, no doubt now would be a great time to go on a seed hunt. You also mentioned about mature/large Queens palms in the UK but we've never seen the actual proof so if you have any that would be splendid.

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UK_Palms
48 minutes ago, sipalms said:

@UK_Palms, in all honesty, why dont you show Some actual real proof of seed collected beneath washingtonias in the UK? I would genuinely love to see. Given your supposed stifling hot saharan summer, no doubt now would be a great time to go on a seed hunt. You also mentioned about mature/large Queens palms in the UK but we've never seen the actual proof so if you have any that would be splendid.

I can’t just drive off to London, on a whim, when I work 50 hours a week in Guildford. Just to get a photo for you. I would try to post up a street view image from Google maps, but the location isn’t mapped since it is down a pathway near a courtyard on the side of someone’s property. It’s not located next to a main road.
 

Regarding the queens, I meant my two larger specimens, which are considered large when compared to my smaller Queen seedlings. Obviously I’m not going to have big, mature Queens here as I am only 27 and people haven’t really been growing them here up until recently. They are starting to get established in places now though, especially around London.
 

As I have said before, we need a few more years to get some mature Queens properly established here. It was the same with Washies 10-15 years ago and now there are larger, mature specimens established here. So it is a work in progress. 
 

I will get some pictures up in due course of the Queens that I have. The largest is about 2.5 meters and is in the ground. It has almost doubled in size since April 2018 and came through the last winter unfazed. No protection. 

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SouthSeaNate
17 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

... Uhh...

 

He has a Washingtonia growing in his garden which he grew from seed he collected ON HOLIDAY. His Washingtonia has never flowered, neither have any others in the UK.

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SouthSeaNate
16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

No, you are the one that is mistaken. The Robusta at Chelsea Physic garden in London has flowered. It used to look like crap when it was smaller, after a few bad winters, but now it looking great and putting on decent size. It takes the winters like they are nothing now.

The Filifera that I collected seed from in 2018 may have been a Filibusta hybrid, located in southeast London. I actually picked up the seeds from the ground beneath the palm. There was quite a lot of them and the palm itself wasn't even that big. Maybe 15-20 feet. It was situated in a front garden but the seeds had dropped onto the pavement/sidewalk. There were Robusta's present on the street as well, but I didn't see any flowering. I would assume the seeds were Filibusta hybrids, unless Washies can self pollenate themselves?

Clearly London has enough summer heat and winter warmth to allow Washies to flower and set seed. Given that some parts of London don't even drop below freezing most years and are getting close to 100F almost every summer these days. In fact London did hit 100F last July. And 99F twice in 2018. And that's going by Met Office recordings. No doubt other parts of London have been hotter, that don't have Met stations nearby.

When I first got into palm growing/collecting, I remember people saying the exact same thing about Chamaerops and CIDP's back then... 'they require hot summers and won't set seed here'. Then low and behold specimens of Chamaerops and CIDP flowered and set seed. It's going to be the same with the Washies here, in the southeast of England at least. They will get bigger as time goes on, and there will be more of them, allowing viable seed to form. Climate change is clearly also playing a part now, with drier, warmer conditions. 

I never said Washingtonia's will be everywhere in the UK. Obviously they won't do well in northern England, or Scotland. But you know full well that I was referring specifically to London and the south coast where they are already popping up everywhere and specimens are getting bigger each year. Robusta's especially are being planted en-masse in London. I went into my local Tesco's supermarket in Guildford and they had tons of Robusta's and CIDP's for sale. I don't see many Trachy's being sold now though...

No it hasn't flowered, none in the UK have. There are only a handful of biggish ones growing in the UK & all of them are well known & feature fairly regularly on the EPS forum.  We even know most of the owners of these palms & some are members of the EPS too, the biggest one belongs to Barry who lives in Edmonton North London & he has explicitly stated that his palm has never flowered. Will they ever flower? Who knows, maybe one day, but none have flowered yet & they certainly have not produced any seed.

You are going to have to back up your claims with actual proof, I could say there is a 30ft Coconut palm growing in a front garden down the road from me, but I wouldn't expect anyone to just take my word for it, especially when it is well known that Coconut palms will not grow here.

Or maybe you were just mistaken & collected some Trachycarpus seeds?

By the way where is that lake you had your boat trip on, as I don't recall ever seeing any mountains or cliffs in Surrey? Maybe you mixed some of the photos up with your holiday snaps, as the sky & lighting is completely different in those pics.

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SouthSeaNate
16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I love how the user claims to have blocked me, yet he is also in my thread, reading it, and contributing to the climate/palm discussion, but not in a relevant way. Absolutely pathetic.

And the guy he mentions lives in Malta, which is 1,500 miles away from the UK. I am actively growing palms here, right now, including Washies, and recording climatic data. I have been documenting the drought and the effect it might have on palms here. It's easy for people in other locations to say "it's all BS" when you're on the other side of the world and behind a computer screen. How many of you are actually in my neck of the woods, inland in the southeast of England?

Just because I live in Malta doesn't mean I do not know what is going on in the UK, I'm FROM the UK, frequently there & there is this marvellous thing called the internet, which allows you to keep in contact with people around the world & know what is going on. Incredible I know.

You being the only active UK based member on here is letting you think you can make many outlandish claims, as you think no one will call you out. You are very mistaken.

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UK_Palms

The outlandish claims being the screenshots of temperatures in my area during last weeks heatwave? As if they are all fabricated. Alright then. 

Some would say this is an outlandish claim from yourself...

On 6/29/2020 at 2:01 PM, SouthSeaNate said:

Washingtonias have NEVER flowered in the UK

That is quite a blanket statement to make. I suppose you know the location of every single Washie in the UK, because you have the internet in Malta. 

There’s tons across the south coast and around London, some that are pretty big, so it’s good that you are familiar with every single Washie that is present in the UK, so you can confirm that it has not flowered. 

Either way I can’t be arsed anymore. Until I can post photographic evidence of a flowering Washie, we’ll just agree that none have ever flowered... in order to keep it civil.

ThIs thread was supposed to be weather/climate related, so let’s keep it that way. That goes for myself as well...

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LivistonaFan
2 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

By the way where is that lake you had your boat trip on, as I don't recall ever seeing any mountains or cliffs in Surrey? Maybe you mixed some of the photos up with your holiday snaps, as the sky & lighting is completely different in those pics.

It is quite astonishing indeed. If someone would have shown me the pictures I would have said these are two entirely different lakes. To be more specific I would have thought of the mountainous "lake" as photos of a sheltered bay on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. The pictures of this mountainous "lake" would have reminded e.g. of the eastern Cote D'Azur or western Liguria (maybe Croatia/Greece) and I would have thought those trees were maritime pines (Pinus pinaster) which can be found quite often in southwestern Europe.

If then the person (which was showing me the pictures) told me that these photos were taken of a Lake in Surrey I would have said:"Who the heck would buy such a big sailing boat if the biggest lakes there aren't even a square mile big?!"593638127_InkedpicturefromUKpalmspalmtalk_LI.thumb.jpg.b23415d6b49492b11e21172e4e124e89.jpg

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sipalms
4 hours ago, LivistonaFan said:

If then the person (which was showing me the pictures) told me that these photos were taken of a Lake in Surrey I would have said:"Who the heck would buy such a big sailing boat if the biggest lakes there aren't even a square mile big?!"593638127_InkedpicturefromUKpalmspalmtalk_LI.thumb.jpg.b23415d6b49492b11e21172e4e124e89.jpg

I must be honest, I thought the same.... Especially regarding the pines.

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sipalms
On 6/30/2020 at 7:42 AM, GottmitAlex said:

... Uhh...

 

Also @GottmitAlex, I believe there are pictures of this palm since this video, I would say around 2011 and then again since then, showing it 90% defoliated after a 'beast from the east' type system.

While it recovered, and probably will never be properly killed off in a winter weather system due to its size, I am just intrigued as to the assumed certainty that it will flower and set seed as some claim.

I have no doubt that there are large washingtonias, some likely reaching maturity around the southern coast of the UK, but as I say, I come from a similar climate to this. Most on this forum would assume its a given that washingtonias will flower and set seed once they get to a certain age but personally I have huge doubts about this in the UK because of what I see here.

Similar to here, a lack of long term, consistent summer heat and a cool to cold damp winter are not conducive to flowering and setting seed for a palm that comes from a desert-like environment.

But: Just like you with your stunning and healthy cocos nuciferas in northern mexico, the proof is in the pudding and everyone likes to be surprised with verified photos of zone pushing specimens or seed! 

Many on here probably wonder why I'm so obsessed with this particular forum and @UK_Palms claims. Part of it is cynicism and doubt because I'm a stickler for the truth and I detest exaggeration or fantasy, and the other part of it is me genuinely wanting to be surprised by what can grow to maturity (e.g. Queens) and occur (e.g. Washingtonias setting seed) in the UK because it guarantees that these things can occur where I am located here in New Zealand. 

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greysrigging

Here are some photos taken in rural Victoria ( Australia ). I'll do a bit more research on the subject, suffice to say images like these are reasonably common in the south eastern states. A pair of palms, either 'Çotton' or 'Date' standing forlornly at the front of old and/or abandoned farmhouses.
I've heard or read somewhere that returning soldiers from both Wars who took up 'Soldier Settlement' farms were given the plants.  I wonder if the New Zealanders did the same thing with their returning soldiers ?
101134828_10157377660085954_3933707615229444096_o.jpg.a313b9fa844aa5f4bce3262913dc3b33.jpg101318762_10221114053096448_6997672309930590208_o.jpg.ff85c0907af96140147a87bc378c8bf2.jpg

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sipalms
4 minutes ago, greysrigging said:

I wonder if the New Zealanders did the same thing with their returning soldiers ?

They must have, as either Trachycarpus or CIDP are extremely common outside these old farmhouses. Not so much washingtonias though, perhaps more common in the North Island. The old farmhouses over here look identical to the ones youve posted, my Grandfather's included, which is still standing and has a skydusting trachy out the front like a sentinel.

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GottmitAlex
4 hours ago, sipalms said:

Also @GottmitAlex, I believe there are pictures of this palm since this video, I would say around 2011 and then again since then, showing it 90% defoliated after a 'beast from the east' type system.

While it recovered, and probably will never be properly killed off in a winter weather system due to its size, I am just intrigued as to the assumed certainty that it will flower and set seed as some claim.

 

@sipalms, I never implied there are fruiting Washingtonias in England. Nor was I being purposefully contentious.

My point is there are mature washies there which can sustain the winters without tarps or heaters etc. Of course, due to their microclimates.

As you mentioned, it reminded me of my palms' situation.

Regards

 

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sandgroper

Still a bit curious about that lake, there's obviously a huge variation in the waterways in such a small area.

Screenshot_20200701-120837_Gallery.jpg

Screenshot_20200701-120901_Gallery.jpg

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sipalms
On 7/1/2020 at 9:49 AM, greysrigging said:

Here are some photos taken in rural Victoria ( Australia ). I'll do a bit more research on the subject, suffice to say images like these are reasonably common in the south eastern states. A pair of palms, either 'Çotton' or 'Date' standing forlornly at the front of old and/or abandoned farmhouses.
I've heard or read somewhere that returning soldiers from both Wars who took up 'Soldier Settlement' farms were given the plants.  I wonder if the New Zealanders did the same thing with their returning soldiers ?
101134828_10157377660085954_3933707615229444096_o.jpg.a313b9fa844aa5f4bce3262913dc3b33.jpg

@greysrigging - just noticed this article about an old farmhouse in the Kaipara region, fits our narrative with a rather neglected date palm and trachycarpus out the front!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/real-estate/122056027/abandoned-restoration-family-homestead-for-sale-after-136-years

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sipalms

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-weather-exactly-miserable-weather-18561215

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-weather-forecast-any-summer-22326095

Looks like July is shaping up to be a bit of a let down heat wise for the UK, but the rain and cool weather would be a positive for drought stricken areas no doubt.

One of the UK guys on the other forums reckons overall June and July have been/are very much a let down and it feels like they're heading into autumn with dreary days and cool nights.

The official Met office is still recording and forecasting single digit lows for some nights in the southern UK... pretty amazing when it is supposed to be high summer, in a Med/subtropical climate.

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sandgroper
4 hours ago, sipalms said:

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-weather-exactly-miserable-weather-18561215

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-weather-forecast-any-summer-22326095

Looks like July is shaping up to be a bit of a let down heat wise for the UK, but the rain and cool weather would be a positive for drought stricken areas no doubt.

One of the UK guys on the other forums reckons overall June and July have been/are very much a let down and it feels like they're heading into autumn with dreary days and cool nights.

The official Met office is still recording and forecasting single digit lows for some nights in the southern UK... pretty amazing when it is supposed to be high summer, in a Med/subtropical climate.

Definitely looks pretty cool for the middle of summer.

Screenshot_20200710-121659_Gallery.jpg

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greysrigging
1 hour ago, sandgroper said:

Definitely looks pretty cool for the middle of summer.

Screenshot_20200710-121659_Gallery.jpg

You could blink and reckon it was an Albany WA summer......:D

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SouthSeaNate
On 6/30/2020 at 5:17 PM, UK_Palms said:

The outlandish claims being the screenshots of temperatures in my area during last weeks heatwave? As if they are all fabricated. Alright then. 

Some would say this is an outlandish claim from yourself...

That is quite a blanket statement to make. I suppose you know the location of every single Washie in the UK, because you have the internet in Malta. 

There’s tons across the south coast and around London, some that are pretty big, so it’s good that you are familiar with every single Washie that is present in the UK, so you can confirm that it has not flowered. 

Either way I can’t be arsed anymore. Until I can post photographic evidence of a flowering Washie, we’ll just agree that none have ever flowered... in order to keep it civil.

ThIs thread was supposed to be weather/climate related, so let’s keep it that way. That goes for myself as well...

So what about that lake then? Care to reveal where it is? As there are definitely no mountains in Surrey. If you post obviously fake photos of "a lake" in "Surrey" how on earth do you expect people to believe your other claims?

And it isn't a blanket statement at all, yes every big Washingtonia growing in the UK IS known as there are so few of them. You know full well I am a member of the European Palm Society & you know that the locations of all big UK palms are known & discussed on their forum. The two biggest are growing in Wimbledon & Edmonton, both in London & NEITHER of these have ever flowered, both these palms are frequently discussed & photographed & the owner of the one in Edmonton is even a member of the EPS too. He has stated himself it has never flowered.

If you claim to have got seed from a Washingtonia why didn't you take any photos of this rare occurrence? The proof would still be there to see now as when a Washingtonia flowers it does so when tall & the flowers are very distinctive & the old flower stems stay attached for a long time unless they pruned off (hard to do on a tall palm).

It's interesting that you never make any of these claims on the EPS forum...

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Shiveringtropicals

Well the weather seems to have made a complete 180 turn.
Daytime temperatures have been between 17c and 22c (63f and 72f) for the last 2 weeks.
We have also gotten regular rain and overcast conditions everyday.
And it looks like the weather will stay like this for quite some time.
It feels like autumn now while spring felt like summer.


 

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Marco67

@shiveringtropicals its is very cool and rainy here indeed. Completely different than last year when it was very hot around this time. The wind keeps on blowing from the Atlantic which brings this bad weather unfortunately. In the winter months that is ok with me but not during the summer months :(

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UK_Palms

I haven't bothered checking in or updating this thread over the past 2 weeks as the weather has been pretty poor as others have mentioned. There hasn't been that much in the way of rain, but temperatures have been way down compared to normal, or compared to the summers of recent years. Highs have typically been in the 20-22C range with quite a bit of cloudy/overcast weather. I reached 26C here today and have 27C forecast for tomorrow, but that will be the warmest it has been over the past 2-3 weeks. If I'm not mistaken it has been the coolest summer since 2012. Unless August turns out to be a lot warmer than average, it will be quite a disappointing summer. 

The rain that we have received, combined with the cooler temperatures, has at least allowed some decent recovery from the drought conditions. Most areas of grass have greened up significantly, although it is still a bit patchy in places as the rain that has fallen has been pretty light and not really amounted to much. I am still having to water everything every 2-3 days at least due to the dry conditions. Potted tomatoes and cucumbers are requiring daily watering. The ones in the ground every 3-4 days. I am finding that my tomatoes are a good 2 weeks later than last year as well. It's still pretty dry here though, despite being on the cool side. July so far has only seen 0.13 inches of rainfall across 4 days.

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UK_Palms

@SouthSeaNate Look, I don't want to get drawn into a heated debate and go radically off-topic. Regarding the 'Washie' seeds I collected in London, I have dug them out to check and they are not actually consistent with Washingtonia seeds (too big), so I think they may possibly be Brahea Armata seeds. Either way this has prompted me to begin the germination process. 

We still can't totally rule out a flowering Washie existing somewhere in the southeast, or on the south coast, given the size of some specimens that I have seen. No doubt there are other large specimens out there in people's back yards. Then there's also the Chelsea Physic garden specimen that I want to check out for myself when it reopens, to see if there is evidence of flowering. I can't remember where I saw it, but I'm sure I remember hearing that it had set seed last year. But I might be wrong, as I'm sure you will tell me. I'm not going to comment on this anymore though. You've made it clear that you don't think there are any flowering Washie's in the UK. 

Regarding the lake(s), I have actually been doing quite a bit of fishing over the past month at various lake and coastal regions. Given that I had been criticising all those idiots who had flocked to the coast and packed out the beaches during the pandemic (we have 45,000 deaths now), I said that I was still in Surrey, when in reality I had been travelling out of Surrey county, further afield, including to the coast. I just didn't want to come across as hypocritical, given the lockdown and extent of the pandemic here. And the fact I was moaning about other people flocking to the coast. The pictures I uploaded showed several different fishing spots that I had visited. Fishing was prohibited at the time as well due to the lockdown... :bummed:

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@sipalms There are several different pines in the locations that I have been frequenting, most of which are this type...

Pines.thumb.jpg.6684b3b2a4d6983fddee0603c8e50ade.jpg

 

@sandgroper That photo you quoted of the small lake/creek was taken deep in the woods, in an area that is constantly shaded by trees. It's a completely different environment/ecosystem. I have also only recorded two nights that have dropped into single digits since June 1st with the lowest being 9.1C, under clear skies at night.

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sipalms
35 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

IMG_1842.thumb.jpg.2840fa62efa0bb59bc7f3370b782d50b.jpg

@UK_Palms where exactly in the UK is the above picture, out of interest?

On 7/1/2020 at 3:45 AM, LivistonaFan said:

593638127_InkedpicturefromUKpalmspalmtalk_LI.thumb.jpg.b23415d6b49492b11e21172e4e124e89.jpg

And @UK_Palms where exactly in the UK was this picture taken?

Obviously not Surrey contrary to what everyone was previously led to believe.

I've been to Lakes District before (Coniston, Windermere etc) but don't recall seeing terrain and vegetation like this. 

It looks really really beautiful and I'd love to know where it is.

Edited by sipalms

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UK_Palms

@sipalms Most of the photos, including that one you are asking about, were taken not far from the English Riviera (Jurassic Coast) in the county of Devon, extending down to Cornwall. I spent a weekend fishing offshore on a small boat in late June, venturing inland several times up waterways to catch some trout. Some of the pictures are also from other parts of the south coast (Hampshire), as well as the Lake District (mid June) as you mentioned and a lake that is actually in Surrey and surrounded by hills (not mountains).

Due to the lockdown, I spent quite a bit of time fishing alone with a mate of mine in various places, given that all other amenities were shut due to the virus. You can see the affects of the spring drought in some of my pictures I have uploaded below. Not all photos below are my own (poor quality ones mine), but they show the areas I ventured to...

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sipalms
On 7/17/2020 at 2:35 PM, sipalms said:
On 7/17/2020 at 2:22 PM, UK_Palms said:

IMG_1842.thumb.jpg.2840fa62efa0bb59bc7f3370b782d50b.jpg

@UK_Palms

On 7/1/2020 at 3:45 AM, LivistonaFan said:

593638127_InkedpicturefromUKpalmspalmtalk_LI.thumb.jpg.b23415d6b49492b11e21172e4e124e89.jpg

Sorry @UK_Palms, just to confirm, the above pictures, you took, are in Devon? Where?

 

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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, sipalms said:

Sorry @UK_Palms, just to confirm, the above pictures, you took, are in Devon? Where?

 

I couldn't give you specific locations for about 3/4 of the pictures I took as I was out on a friends fishing boat for 48 hours and taking pictures at random when we came inshore and went up several waterways. We started out in Torquay, Devon and sailed to Falmouth, Cornwall, stopping overnight in Plymouth. He was the navigator/sailor, I was the fisherman and responsible for the 4 rod setup we had.

The picture in question was taken down a waterway near to Salcombe, Devon. I think. The exact location, I can't be sure. Obviously I was taking photos away from the populated areas. You can clearly see the affects of the drought at the time in the pictures.

I know these pictures below were taken in the area between Polkerris and Polperro / Looe in Cornwall on the second day...

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These are the types of endemic pines that I have seen people mention (not my photos)...

Polperro.jpg.2e6cafb6aaa6444b3040329ddf8be4bc.jpg

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956511490_39930432795_01aa8e3914_b(1).jpg.ce148f0cef93b3896f4b34a0be53162d.jpg

 

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LivistonaFan

First of all, I love the UK. I have been there 5 times, each time for at least a week (Cornwall, East Sussex/Kent, coastal Yorkshire, Scotland, Wales). But I must admit that I have never seen this Mediterranean type of a coast there before. Some of your photos seem reasonable and can very possibly be from some of the more exotic looking sections of this beautiful coast. But about some I am slightly doubtful. Please take a look at some of the highest mountains of Devon to see why:

View from Stowes Hill towards Caradon Hill - geograph.org.uk - 229693.jpg

View across Witheybrook - geograph.org.uk - 1083607.jpg

RoughTor.jpg

All of these mountains were polished by glaciers of the last Ice Age, hence they have very broad valleys and are rather flat compared to the Alps. Maybe we can see some similarities by looking at the highest mountains of Cornwall:rolleyes::

Cut Hill - geograph.org.uk - 778081.jpg

Looking towards Condolden Farm - geograph.org.uk - 495375.jpg

I'm sure you get the idea.

 

 

Of course, the coastal hills/cliffs could be a bit steeper. Lemme see...

Prawle Point and Start Point Site of Special Scientific Interest ...

Rugged coastline, cliffs, green fields. Rocks on the shore. Blue sea and blue skies. Sunset over a cliff. Croyde Devon. 17 Beautiful Places to Visit in Devon for a Great Day Out. Devon England. Devon UK. Things to do in Devon. Places to see in Devon. What to see in Devon. Things to see in Devon. What to do in Devon. Devon attractions. Devon top attractions. Devon travel blog. Devon travel guide. The English Riviera. Exeter. Plymouth. Dartmouth. Dartmoor National Park. Exmoor National Park. Salcombe. Clovelly. Totnes. Appledore. Watermouth. Croyde. Woolacombe. Dartmouth. Ilfracombe. Beer. Burgh Island. Lundy Island. Click through to read more...

Yeah, they are indeed steeper! But after the immediate coast it seems the terrain is relatively flat and smooth again. The same goes with areas in the south-eastern UK with bigger cliffs like in Dover.

Let us now compare the highest mountains of Devon and Cornwall with this picture presumably taken in Devon. If you look really really really close, I am sure you can see a difference to the previous mountains, which were formed by slowly moving glaciers (please don't pay attention to the blue circle (which proved me right about my theory that this photo is showing a photo at the ocean, not as claimed at a lake)):

593638127_InkedpicturefromUKpalmspalmtalk_LI.thumb.jpg.b23415d6b49492b11e21172e4e124e89.jpg

 

The last mountain in the background has to be at least ~500 m high and no mountain of the coastal UK gets that high (I "flew" around the southern half of the UK by looking at Google Maps' Terrain function). But maybe I am wrong since it is only a photo and the perspective could trick me. However, those shrubs on the mountain slope look exactly like those in southern Europe. Some of the areas there don't even look as dry as the area in your photo. I visited Tintagel and Port Isaac (Cornwall, both sights that are well-worth visiting) 3 years ago and was rather amazed by the lichen and mosses on the cliffs, certainly not by xeric shrubland. I have been about 6 times in Southern France, 10 times in coastal Italy ( 5x Liguria, 2x Tuscany, 2x Ravenna, 1x in Calabria), once in southern Croatia and twice in Spain and would have expected this coast section rather anywhere there than at 50+°N.

Please name the exact location of the last picture, because I want to visit Cornwall next year again (despite Brexit and Corona) and it would be a pity if I missed this beautiful scenery again.  

I usually go by the motto "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." Let's see if it holds true or not.

 

On a side note:

On 6/30/2020 at 1:05 PM, sipalms said:

You also mentioned about mature/large Queens palms in the UK but we've never seen the actual proof so if you have any that would be splendid.

I can't understand why you are still questioning the existence of large queens in the UK when there are palms growing in Central London that even have a hard time in cities like coastal Barcelona or Athens:blink::

"They seem to have a ridiculously mild microclimate there, where even Roystonia Regia has been growing unprotected the past few years. I've seen several decent sized Royals along the river there." (UK_Palms)

 

@UK_Palms Please correct me if I am wrong. I am happy to learn something new on each day.

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