Giant Butia in zone 7b/8a

[Brad Mondel]

[JLM]

I love butia, they are all over my neighborhood.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Beautiful! Kinda makes me want to try one, but deep down I know it's out of my range. Will just stick to trachycarpus, chamaerops, rhapidopohyllum and my lone sabal palmetto.

[RJ]

Well grown ones always look quite nice around here. The problem is most aren't and look like crap usually. 

[DAVEinMB]

7 minutes ago, RJ said:

Well grown ones always look quite nice around here. The problem is most aren't and look like crap usually. 

You can make or break the overall look by how you prune them too. A lot of people around here remove all foliage besides the very top center. They look horrendous. 

[Manalto]

16 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

A lot of people around here remove all foliage besides the very top center. They look horrendous. 

I see a lot of that here too; they cut away everything except for the center. Some people seem to equate scalping the landscape to doing a thorough job; only the extremes - the neglected and the snooty neighborhoods - get it right.

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I haven't seen it. Does a senescent frond benefit a palm in any way?

Edited March 24, 2020 by Manalto
clarity

[DAVEinMB]

4 hours ago, Manalto said:

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I haven't seen it. Does a senescent frond benefit a palm in any way?

That's an interesting question. Obviously a brown frond is no longer converting sunlight into useful energy for the palm and a fully green frond we can assume is efficiently performing this task. But at what point in degradation from green to brown is the frond more deadweight than beneficial. I imagine it is not linear but maybe someone smarter can shed some light.

[PalmTreeDude]

On 3/23/2020 at 11:22 AM, mdsonofthesouth said:

Beautiful! Kinda makes me want to try one, but deep down I know it's out of my range. Will just stick to trachycarpus, chamaerops, rhapidopohyllum and my lone sabal palmetto.

You’re not alone, I attempted 4 Butias here and I got some to survive a couple winters with burlap wrap, but eventually they all died... Maybe I’ll try again... 

Edited March 24, 2020 by PalmTreeDude

[Manalto]

8 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

That's an interesting question. Obviously a brown frond is no longer converting sunlight into useful energy for the palm and a fully green frond we can assume is efficiently performing this task. But at what point in degradation from green to brown is the frond more deadweight than beneficial. I imagine it is not linear but maybe someone smarter can shed some light.

There was a study that I heard mentioned anecdotally reporting that removal of senescent fronds in no way benefited the plant, i.e., they are not a burden if left on the plant. 

I've also heard it said that the plant reabsorbs minerals from the dying frond but I'm suspicious of this one; it sounds like something somebody cooked up.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Manalto

[Brad Mondel]

This Butia is the tallest I've seen in the upstate.

[mdsonofthesouth]

11 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

You’re not alone, I attempted 4 Butias here and I got some to survive a couple winters with burlap wrap, but eventually they all died... Maybe I’ll try again... 

 

I tried 1 and it didn't even make it out of the pot...died of a fungus before I could plant it. 

[Ninja88]

On 3/21/2020 at 12:39 PM, Brad Mondel said:

I remember seeing this one a few years ago and being surprised. It is probably the biggest Butia in the Upstate SC region. I wonder how long it has been there.

[knikfar]

I’m in 7b near where 8a begins, in Raleigh NC. But they don’t survive here. 

[mdsonofthesouth]

13 hours ago, knikfar said:

I’m in 7b near where 8a begins, in Raleigh NC. But they don’t survive here. 

 

Only thing I can think of is while the areas are the same zone with same ultimate low possibilities the averages are just milder. That or freak genetics and a "perfect" microclimate.

Edited March 29, 2020 by mdsonofthesouth

[RJ]

5 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

Only thing I can think of is while the areas are the same zone with same ultimate low possibilities the averages are just milder. That or freak genetics and a "perfect" microclimate.

They're plenty of them in upstate SC. I have no idea why they don't make it in Raleigh but I know I never saw any when I lived there in 2006. Even Palmetto's are pretty uncommon there. Oddly enough Charlotte has more Palmetto's then Raleigh. 

[knikfar]

We have lots of windmill palms here. And I'm seeing more and more palmettos but still not as many as the windmills. I have 5 sabal birminghams and over 100 sabal bald head islands I'm going to try in my yard. We'll see how they do. 

[Dartolution]

Im about a quarter of the way into zone 8a here (if you look at the USDA zoning map). There are several butias sprinkled about, and a few miles south they are abundant. 

Im planting a small blue butia today (my birthday) that I have been trying to find for a while. Wish it luck!

Edited March 30, 2020 by Dartolution

[DAVEinMB]

8 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

Im about a quarter of the way into zone 8a here (if you look at the USDA zoning map). There are several butias sprinkled about, and a few miles south they are abundant. 

Im planting a small blue butia today (my birthday) that I have been trying to find for a while. Wish it luck!

Happy birthday brotha!

[mdsonofthesouth]

On 3/29/2020 at 4:13 PM, RJ said:

They're plenty of them in upstate SC. I have no idea why they don't make it in Raleigh but I know I never saw any when I lived there in 2006. Even Palmetto's are pretty uncommon there. Oddly enough Charlotte has more Palmetto's then Raleigh. 

The only thing that comes to mind is while two areas may have the same USDA hardiness designation, their time or frequency at those temperatures can be vastly different. As well as average highs and lows can have a great effect on what grows and doesn't. 

 

Makes me think of the guy in coastal Rhode Island that's 7a like me but wraps a needle. I just plant them out exposed as strap leaf and they grow here. We have the same USDA zone, but the heat and winter are vastly different despite being on the same coast and same zone. 

[PalmsNC]

On 3/29/2020 at 4:13 PM, RJ said:

They're plenty of them in upstate SC. I have no idea why they don't make it in Raleigh but I know I never saw any when I lived there in 2006. Even Palmetto's are pretty uncommon there. Oddly enough Charlotte has more Palmetto's then Raleigh. 

Raleigh is milder than Charlotte, however Charlotte is a lot larger with 2 major lakes with private developments on them. Most of Charlotte's palms are clustered around there from what i have seen are clustered around lake Wylie and Lake Norman. Raleigh doesn't have that, our lakes are public reservoirs with strict building codes. I have seen a few butia including a couple large ones, one notable example off six forks road north of 540.  They are harder to find, I see more sago than I see butia. 

[PalmsNC]

16 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

The only thing that comes to mind is while two areas may have the same USDA hardiness designation, their time or frequency at those temperatures can be vastly different. As well as average highs and lows can have a great effect on what grows and doesn't. 

 

Makes me think of the guy in coastal Rhode Island that's 7a like me but wraps a needle. I just plant them out exposed as strap leaf and they grow here. We have the same USDA zone, but the heat and winter are vastly different despite being on the same coast and same zone. 

Raleigh is warmer than Charlotte, this would only be applicable if you wanted to compare ocean city md or something to Charlotte.

[mdsonofthesouth]

3 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Raleigh is warmer than Charlotte, this would only be applicable if you wanted to compare ocean city md or something to Charlotte.

Ocean City, MD is mild and not overly warm.  I bet the average lows between Charlotte and oc are similar but the highs are different. Coming home from OC to the Piedmont of Maryland it's markedly more humid and hotter. 

[PalmsNC]

9 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Ocean City, MD is mild and not overly warm.  I bet the average lows between Charlotte and oc are similar but the highs are different. Coming home from OC to the Piedmont of Maryland it's markedly more humid and hotter. 

Indeed lows are similar, charlottes annual mean minimum is a bit higher and highs a lot warmer. June in OC doesn't even average 80 degree highs! I meant it is similar to your example between coastal Rhode Island and Maryland, similar zone but that doesnt tell full story with charlotte able to grow much more.

[cm05]

On paper Raleigh and Charlotte look identical, I don’t know how one struggles in one city but thrives in the other, it’s not that I don’t believe first hand accounts but it just seems odd.

And Butia doesn’t seem to mind cool winter temperatures in my experience, I’m in New York and mine did very well this winter (in a pot) with high temperatures generally in the mid to upper 40’s.

[mdsonofthesouth]

2 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Indeed lows are similar, charlottes annual mean minimum is a bit higher and highs a lot warmer. June in OC doesn't even average 80 degree highs! I meant it is similar to your example between coastal Rhode Island and Maryland, similar zone but that doesnt tell full story with charlotte able to grow much more.

Agreed. Although what can grow in OC hasnt been truly tested as all the places want coconuts for that tropical feel for 6 months and then replace them. If they actually thought things through they could plant so much more that would actually live and most could possibly live it's full life cycle out. But then again it's a tourist town that gets its money between April and October so they don't much care. I'd be willing to bet chamaerops, and possibly palmettos would do ok there and of course trachycarpus, sabal minor and rhapidophyllum. There is a 20ft trachycarpus that's neglected but still living there and has been through 10 years of neglect and bad years. But expecting OC to come to their senses is a waste of time...

 

There was a story of a neglected palmetto fully exposed north of OC that did ok but the owner eventually fried it when they unnecessarily over protected it. Now Crisfield is a solid zone 8a that I'd love to see what they can grow.

Edited April 2, 2020 by mdsonofthesouth

[RJ]

1 hour ago, cm05 said:

On paper Raleigh and Charlotte look identical, I don’t know how one struggles in one city but thrives in the other, it’s not that I don’t believe first hand accounts but it just seems odd.

And Butia doesn’t seem to mind cool winter temperatures in my experience, I’m in New York and mine did very well this winter (in a pot) with high temperatures generally in the mid to upper 40’s.

I agree, they do look identical. Both even have the same deep red clay, so I'm not exactly sure why. Perhaps Charlotte gets a bit more protection from the mountains where Raleigh gets a bit more prolonged cold from the north/northeast? I'm not sure I would say they thrive in Charlotte, but they certainly seems to do better. I'm 2 hours south of Charlotte and butia's are all over the place here. I would say they thrive and we have some stunning examples that look fantastic fully exposed to the elements.  Most consider downtown Columbia a solid 8b and the botanical garden grows a fair amount of 9a stuff. 

[PalmsNC]

8 hours ago, cm05 said:

On paper Raleigh and Charlotte look identical, I don’t know how one struggles in one city but thrives in the other, it’s not that I don’t believe first hand accounts but it just seems odd.

And Butia doesn’t seem to mind cool winter temperatures in my experience, I’m in New York and mine did very well this winter (in a pot) with high temperatures generally in the mid to upper 40’s.

I doubt it is a climatic factor at all and again relates to the people who planted them and where. They are not common palms in either city at all. And again , Charlottes big palms are all found along Lake Norman and Lake Wylie , Something Raleigh doesnt have. my neighbor has a super hardy sabal that survived 4f in 2018 with nothing but Christmas lights if i remember correctly, and I live in the country side ( not raleigh as my location states).

Edited April 3, 2020 by PalmsNC

[RaleighNC]

On 3/24/2020 at 6:18 PM, Manalto said:

There was a study that I heard mentioned anecdotally reporting that removal of senescent fronds in no way benefited the plant, i.e., they are not a burden if left on the plant. 

I've also heard it said that the plant reabsorbs minerals from the dying frond but I'm suspicious of this one; it sounds like something somebody cooked up.

Yes, as leaves senesce, plants can generally resorb about 50% of the nitrogen and phosphorus in those leaves, and a smaller percentage of potassium. It does vary from species to species, so the amount could be somewhat different for palms. But you can be certain that nutrient resorption does occur --  is so widely observed across all kinds of plants that it would be very surprising if it did not occur in palms. But once leaves are dead, brown and dry, there is no way for the plant to access those nutrient, so if leaves are killed quickly due to freezing or drought, the nutrients are lost to the plant.  And I agree as long as part of a leaf is still alive and green, it is still photosynthesizing to some extent and will be providing some net benefit to the palm. However as a leaf gets older, its rate of photosynthesis gradually declines, so that benefit diminishes through time.  Again this is something that is seen across plants of all kinds. But these benefits of retaining old leaves might not matter much in a well-fertilized and well-lit palm,  if there are plenty of healthy leaves remaining.

[Manalto]

Thanks, Bill. In my life, I've innocently doled out so much bad information, I cringe, so I wanted to be cautious about this one.

What we do with our landscapes is a result of our own aesthetic sensibilities. I think (for me at least), once we understand that a senescent leaf provides some benefit to the plant, it acquires a functional beauty and we don't have to rush to amputation.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Manalto

[EastCanadaTropicals]

On 3/23/2020 at 11:22 AM, mdsonofthesouth said:

Beautiful! Kinda makes me want to try one, but deep down I know it's out of my range. Will just stick to trachycarpus, chamaerops, rhapidopohyllum and my lone sabal palmetto.

Try the butia x Jubaea hybrid