Sunset zones

[SoulofthePlace]

Are sunset zones still used and can they be applied or calculated in other countries (since this is the/an International PS)? I am trying to find out my sunset zone in the Azores (our climate described in my signature and under avatar and profile). Elevation 140 m (459 ft.), latitude 38º.

[kinzyjr]

The Sunset Zones are used, but there may not be one that comes close to detailing the Oceanic Cool Mediterranean climate of the Azores.  The closest might be Santa Catalina island.  Here is a link to another thread on Sunset Zones:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61804-what-are-sunset-climate-zones/

[SoulofthePlace]

19 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

The Sunset Zones are used, but there may not be one that comes close to detailing the Oceanic Cool Mediterranean climate of the Azores.  The closest might be Santa Catalina island.  Here is a link to another thread on Sunset Zones:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61804-what-are-sunset-climate-zones/

Thank you. Looks like C.I. has a drier climate with more temperature variations and is less green. Would be nice to hear opinions what Pico island, Azores sunset zone could be (closer to), whether closer to 1 or to 10 or 20 etc.

[bubba]

Your Azores climate is a complete outlier and fits no current Sunset Zone. Certainly do not take that as a negative. To the contrary, your climate is one of the most interesting on earth.

To that end, I have always speculated that it may have the potential for the furthest Cocos nucifera from the equator. A palm enthusiast, who resided in Bermuda but whose family was from the Azores shared this thought with me. Because of the Azores location in the middle of the forever warmer waters of the Gulfstream, you rarely encounter temperatures below 50°F in the middle of winter. anything near freezing would be perhaps a once in every five hundred year occurrence.

The problem is with the lack of heat necessary for a coconut palm to survive. However, the fact that you can grow Areca catchetu at such great latitude shows the power of the Gulfstream. At the same time, numerous areas in the Azores have hot volcanic springs.. We speculated that it may be possible to grow Cocos nucifera if planted in a microclimate that took advantage of the warm ocean water and also the heat from a planting near enough to a hot spring so as to increase the lack of heat conundrum. Love your name and the beauty of the Azores. I would encourage you to give the Cocos nucifera a shot with these parameters!

[SoulofthePlace]

Coconut palm is grown by one enthusiast nearby at an elevation of probably 100m or more, but I don't know how it is doing now and I doubt it will bear normal fruit. I would like to plant a coconut here, but have not found one to purchase yet, preferably in a size of 1m since seedlings of tropical palms are very hard to raise here (without special greenhouses). When I do I will post here, but that may be years from now.

Regarding volcanic springs, (probably) not on this island. Owning a property with a volcanic spring or even with a spring, let alone a creek one must be a very lucky human being. I doubt there are year round creeks or streams or even springs on Pico island. I am on the north side of the island. The southern side has a little bit more sun exposure.

Regarding plant hardiness zones, my zone is definitely 11b, but only accordingly to winter night lows and not accordingly to year round highs. Winter is almost never above +18C (this winter though is warmer) and summer never above 27-28C perhaps the asphalted towns close to water may get up to 30C in summer some days some hours. So the dilemma is, can a USDA z11b still be a z11b with this kind of lack of heat? Perhaps because of lack of heat it becomes z9b for instance? I see people growing Butias (capitata and I think perhaps also yatays) and even Trachycarpus, lots of CIDPs of course (no Sabals that I know of) and of course Washingtonias and I suspect a lot of filibustas, with some filiferas and some robustas. There is an occasional tropical looking palm or two or three, but those could also be hardy to a zone 9 without having the frost of a zone 9. I have the feeling this is some kind of weird zone 9 without the frost. So if I can't have a Sunset zone, can I still have a USDA plant hardiness zone?

[kinzyjr]

@SoulofthePlace I wouldn't get too hung up on USDA zones or Sunset Zones.  My current USDA zone is 9b.  My refrigerator is, by definition, a zone 10a.  There are a lot of palms outside my house, but none inside my refrigerator.  Santa Catalina from my original post is USDA 10b or 11 with no coconuts due to the perpetual cool weather.  Here in Florida, it is not uncommon to see them in mild zone 9b areas until we get a strong arctic front.

@bubba summarized it perfectly by stating that your climate is an outlier.  As far as the palms that will perform well in your area, that is dictated by your overall growing conditions.  Look for palms that will grow well in cooler but frost-free conditions.  Howea forsteriana and Howea belmoreana come to my mind as my personal favorites for these types of climates.  Here, it's a necessity to grow them in shade because of the intense heat and sun in the summer time.  Where you're at, they're probably fine anywhere + anytime. 

[SoulofthePlace]

Let's make things a little bit more complicated. For example, my Howea belmoreana, which is about 6 years old would be my guess (please take a look at the 2 photos attached), gets some of its fronds burned by our strong summer sun. I've read it will stop doing that after about 5 years in the ground. It's been there perhaps for 3 years now. Will see. Yet I have not got my hands on a Howea forsteriana yet and I eventually will, despite me previously thinking it was not a very attractive palm and I had some priorities to investigate/grow. Yet I still have to have at least one HF growing in my lava ingot garden with no native soil in it. So I agree that there are hundreds or thousands of individual hardiness zones or micro-climates on Earth. I have noticed so far that some palms that are marked for warm subtropical and especially those that are marked for warm temperate climate (by RPS and by Palmpedia) will most likely linger, survive, live or even do well in my outlier climate. Yet many of us are zone pushers. Those palms that are marked mostly for tropical climates usually decline and fade away here, except some which are marked for tropical highlands climate, but even those can be killed by our strong sun (Ceroxylon adieu), even if temps do not become hot. It feels quite hot in the summer and even during winter if it is +18C and on a sunny day it feels quite "hot" already, because also of a high humidity in the air. Yet Areca catechu, Ptychosperma elegans, Archontophoenix, Veitchias do fine, although don't necessarily look their best here. In fact Areca catechu looks best so far with a minimum of browned fronds (attached, with mostly green fronds after the winter). Perhaps these are not fully tropical palms, that's why they survive here. Will they bear seeds and fruit, will see. So the complication is that not only lack of heat and lack of frost but also the relative strong sun and even lack of tropical humidity during summer makes this climate not exactly entirely coolish LHI or perhaps I have not travelled well enough. The grass will burn some during summer and there are droughts even in January sometimes! P.S.: Your fridge being z10a

Edited March 20, 2020 by SoulofthePlace

[SoulofthePlace]

Also I wanted to mention that I am looking forward to see what my grown palms over the next several decades will develop into. Not them, but their offsprings (from seed). Does lack of heat mean lack of developing interesting  palm varieties? What if some of the palms' offsprings develop into a local xxx picoensis variety? Do palms need high summer heat to develop such varieties? Can growers from São Miguel island confirm of such palm varieties existing? Perhaps the climate is too mild to have varieties and the frost and the high heat is the creator?

[SoulofthePlace]

Azores climate seems to be like London (cool temperate western margin) + 5C:

http://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/geography/climate-geography/the-cool-temperate-western-margin-british-type-climate/77789

 

[SoulofthePlace]

Accordingly to the BIOCLIMATIC MAP OF EUROPE most of the Azores are... Temperate Hyperoceanic Submediterranean climate. I suspected something like this would surface.

http://www.globalbioclimatics.org/form/bi_med.htm

Edited March 20, 2020 by SoulofthePlace

[lzorrito]

On 3/17/2020 at 12:23 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

Are sunset zones still used and can they be applied or calculated in other countries (since this is the/an International PS)? I am trying to find out my sunset zone in the Azores (our climate described in my signature and under avatar and profile). Elevation 140 m (459 ft.), latitude 38º.

Hi, this is my first post on Palmtalk. Your post, for far many reasons, is very interesting for me.I was wondering if  "ressalga" gets to your place? The road we see on your post, is it the "transversal" or the "regional"? Your northen exposure, there in São Roque, is quit a tricky one regarding to some palms, right?

[cm05]

Sunset Zones are hyper detailed for California, everywhere else looks like an afterthought to me. The maps could use an update as well.