What coconut varieties would be the best candidates for southern California?

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

Apparently it turns out that certain coconut palm varieties are hardier than others. I live in Murrieta, CA, where I believe it could grow in a good microclimate (as demonstrated by the one in Corona, CA, where the climate and weather is almost identical and perhaps even colder than where i live, and yet seems happy.) In winter, the high temp is around 65 to 72, with a low of 39 to 43. There are some days out of the year where the high is 55 to 60, but the nights are 45 or above. There would be a few nights where the temp if briefly 30 degrees, but it quickly rebounds. Once every few years, you could get a low of 28 or 29, but anything lower would be once every decade or two, they should recover in summer. I noticed that the average extreme temperature has been rising recently (probably due to the city's growth.)Also, I'm in at a higher point so it might be warmer. What varieties would perform best around here?

Edited March 14, 2020 by coconuts_dont_growhere_but

[Chris Chance]

Honestly in Murrieta most areas see bad frost and very few microclimates that Corona might have. I used to live in Murrieta and typically it can be mild but can have bad frost that would kill any coconut variety. Another thing I saw when I lived there was snow and it was actually quite a bit. On the west side of town where my parents lived at the time had 6 inches. Also kings are even difficult to grow in Murrieta but also it depends on what part of town again. Are you one a south facing hill?

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

58 minutes ago, Chris Chance said:

Honestly in Murrieta most areas see bad frost and very few microclimates that Corona might have. I used to live in Murrieta and typically it can be mild but can have bad frost that would kill any coconut variety. Another thing I saw when I lived there was snow and it was actually quite a bit. On the west side of town where my parents lived at the time had 6 inches. Also kings are even difficult to grow in Murrieta but also it depends on what part of town again. Are you one a south facing hill?

It faces west. I live in down the street from the Super Target. The place live is like the border between 9b and 10a. And also, it last snowed 5 years ago

Edited March 14, 2020 by coconuts_dont_growhere_but

[Chris Chance]

4 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

It faces west. I live in down the street from the Super Target. The place live is like the border between 9b and 10a. And also, it last snowed 5 years ago

I would say that area gets colder than you think. In my opinion the only way to grow a coconut there is to put a heated greenhouse around it during the winter. I lived there long enough and saw it freeze many times. The problem with that Valley that I learned was the radiation frost actually settles into the Valley with nowhere to go because of the hills in the west. If you live near Cal Oaks and I used to live near by I seen it get into the 20s many times and killed palms more hardy than coconut. Seen Archontophoenix and Dypsis decaryi defoliate not to mention long periods of cold nights. Don't want to give you bad news but I don't think coconuts stand a chance in Murrieta. Good news is there's lots of other cool palms that can be grown there.

[Chris Chance]

I lived there before I moved to Moreno Valley and Beccariophoenix alfredii is a good look alike. This one was in a pot when it snowed and it survived it now it's looking a lot like a coconut. This winter it saw 27 and still looks good.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

1 minute ago, Chris Chance said:

I would say that area gets colder than you think. In my opinion the only way to grow a coconut there is to put a heated greenhouse around it during the winter. I lived there long enough and saw it freeze many times. The problem with that Valley that I learned was the radiation frost actually settles into the Valley with nowhere to go because of the hills in the west. If you live near Cal Oaks and I used to live near by I seen it get into the 20s many times and killed palms more hardy than coconut. Seen Archontophoenix and Dypsis decaryi defoliate not to mention long periods of cold nights. Don't want to give you bad news but I don't think coconuts stand a chance in Murrieta. Good news is there's lots of other cool palms that can be grown there.

I'm not sure if its some extra tiny microclimate but the weather forecast said it would be 25 degrees over a month ago, yet the queen palms in my neighborhood show no apparent damage whatsoever, when they should be severely damaged at that temperature. But then again, it might have to do with the ancestory of the queen palms, since ive heard that the ones in the mountain regions of South America do better in frost than the ones in rainforests.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

2 minutes ago, Chris Chance said:

I lived there before I moved to Moreno Valley and Beccariophoenix alfredii is a good look alike. This one was in a pot when it snowed and it survived it now it's looking a lot like a coconut. This winter it saw 27 and still looks good.

That looks like a good palm. How old is it?

[Chris Chance]

1 minute ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

I'm not sure if its some extra tiny microclimate but the weather forecast said it would be 25 degrees over a month ago, yet the queen palms in my neighborhood show no apparent damage whatsoever, when they should be severely damaged at that temperature. But then again, it might have to do with the ancestory of the queen palms, since ive heard that the ones in the mountain regions of South America do better in frost than the ones in rainforests.

Queens actually can take down to the low 20s before they fry. I saw it happen in Vegas when I lived there in 07. Even Washingtonia robusta were damaged bad. A good indicator is look around at the pygmies in that area and I bet they are damaged. 

[Chris Chance]

4 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

That looks like a good palm. How old is 

I have grown that Beccariophoenix since 2012. They're not fast growers but very rewarding. It has been in the ground for almost 5 years and it really took off since being planted. 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

1 minute ago, Chris Chance said:

Queens actually can take down to the low 20s before they fry. I saw it happen in Vegas when I lived there in 07. Even Washingtonia robusta were damaged bad. A good indicator is look around at the pygmies in that area and I bet they are damaged. 

Like the pygmy date palms?

[Chris Chance]

1 minute ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Like the pygmy date palms?

Yes they fry and come back all the time around there unless they have canopy. 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

1 minute ago, Chris Chance said:

Yes they fry and come back all the time around there unless they have canopy. 

Not damaged at all. ill get a picture when i can.

[PalmatierMeg]

The other thing you have to remember is that coconuts are "cool sensitive" as well as cold sensitive. Days and days of nights in the upper 30s to lower 40s and days in the 50s and/or 60s  will kill them as surely as one night at freezing. Coconuts demand lots of sun and high heat: 80-90+F. They show cold damage at temps in the 40s. I had one night - no frost - that fell to 38F and my dwarf red spicatas now have significant cold damage to their foliage. Cold and frost are a double nightmare, as are cold and rain. In FL I am blessed that my winters are dry and mostly sunny, that the occasional cool/cold night is followed by quick temperature rebounds after sunrise into the 70s and occasionally 80s. By March highs hit the 80s daily and by April often the 90s. Coconuts will not photosynthesize below 50F and will starve to death on cool, sunny days.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

8 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

The other thing you have to remember is that coconuts are "cool sensitive" as well as cold sensitive. Days and days of nights in the upper 30s to lower 40s and days in the 50s and/or 60s  will kill them as surely as one night at freezing. Coconuts demand lots of sun and high heat: 80-90+F. They show cold damage at temps in the 40s. I had one night - no frost - that fell to 38F and my dwarf red spicatas now have significant cold damage to their foliage. Cold and frost are a double nightmare, as are cold and rain. In FL I am blessed that my winters are dry and mostly sunny, that the occasional cool/cold night is followed by quick temperature rebounds after sunrise into the 70s and occasionally 80s. By March highs hit the 80s daily and by April often the 90s. Coconuts will not photosynthesize below 50F and will starve to death on cool, sunny days.

Anything below 55 is like 1 or 2 days out of the year. In winter, most days are in the high 60s and a few in the 70s here and there. We get about 265 sunny days a year. The temps reach 80s by April. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by coconuts_dont_growhere_but

[Chris Chance]

I can guarantee it gets into the low 30s all the time around there. If it didn't you would see a lot more tropicals around. It does depend on drainage too but I don't think it's rare to drop below 55 in that area. Even in Fallbrook which I know people growing things in a much better area on a hill get into the 40s.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

4 minutes ago, Chris Chance said:

I can guarantee it gets into the low 30s all the time around there. If it didn't you would see a lot more tropicals around. It does depend on drainage too but I don't think it's rare to drop below 55 in that area. Even in Fallbrook which I know people growing things in a much better area on a hill get into the 40s.

Oh I do have a south facing wall that gets sun virtually the entire day. I also have a west facing slope. The queen palms are right up against a west facing fence and there is a north facing wall in front of it. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by coconuts_dont_growhere_but

[PalmatierMeg]

I understand CA weather in general terms. All my kinfolk, except for my brother and me, hail from No Cal. They would as soon take a header off a redwood tree than ever move away from their perfect weather paradise. But perfect weather for people is no such thing for coconuts and many tropical plants. And like my blissful California dreamin' kinfolk, a coconut won't budge off its priorities.

I suggest you take a few hours to really tour the area where you live and make a count of all the coconut palms growing within a 5-mile radius of your home. How many did you see? 10? 50? More? But if you find none, you need to re-evaluate your options, which may require investment in a serious greenhouse or conservatory. If no one is growing a coconut in Murrieta there is a reason. And that reason is not likely that you are the sole coconut lover in town. 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

20 hours ago, Chris Chance said:

Queens actually can take down to the low 20s before they fry. I saw it happen in Vegas when I lived there in 07. Even Washingtonia robusta were damaged bad. A good indicator is look around at the pygmies in that area and I bet they are damaged. 

The pygmies have no damage. The washingtonas dont have any noticeable damage whatsoever. I also have a passionfruit vine that showed little to no frost damage.

Edited March 15, 2020 by coconuts_dont_growhere_but

[GottmitAlex]

10 hours ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

The pygmies have no damage. The washingtonas dont have any noticeable damage whatsoever. I also have a passionfruit vine that showed little to no frost damage.

If in Corona, CA (being a 9b zone, it snows, frosts and the rest of it) there is a beautiful coconut. I don't see why not to try one in your yard based on what you have mentioned.

In front of a south facing wall, protect if as much as you can during winters. I suggest a green tall or green Malaysian dwarf variety. 

It's worth a shot. The sooner you plant it in pure sand the faster it will begin to develop its root system.  There are many on Ebay.

Good luck!

 

 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

If in Corona, CA (being a 9b zone, it snows, frosts and the rest of it) there is a beautiful coconut. I don't see why not to try one in your yard based on what you have mentioned.

In front of a south facing wall, protect if as much as you can during winters. I suggest a green tall or green Malaysian dwarf variety. 

It's worth a shot. The sooner you plant it in pure sand the faster it will begin to develop its root system.  There are many on Ebay.

Good luck!

 

 

Wait Malayan or Malaysian dwarf? Also, what kind of green tall?

[GottmitAlex]

2 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Wait Malayan or Malaysian dwarf? Also, what kind of green tall?

Malayan dwarf.

Any green tall: Jamaican/Atlantic, Panama/Pacific talls.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

If in Corona, CA (being a 9b zone, it snows, frosts and the rest of it) there is a beautiful coconut. I don't see why not to try one in your yard based on what you have mentioned.

In front of a south facing wall, protect if as much as you can during winters. I suggest a green tall or green Malaysian dwarf variety. 

It's worth a shot. The sooner you plant it in pure sand the faster it will begin to develop its root system.  There are many on Ebay.

Good luck!

 

 

Also, i wonder if I were to grow a coconut, and also some of its descendants here, than maybe they will eventually become more suited to the climate. Also, I worry that the corona one might not pull through this cool and rainy march.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

Just now, GottmitAlex said:

Malayan dwarf.

Any green tall: Jamaican/Atlantic, Panama/Pacific talls.

Oh ok thanks:)

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

1 minute ago, GottmitAlex said:

Malayan dwarf.

Any green tall: Jamaican/Atlantic, Panama/Pacific talls.

I heard that Samoan dwarf coconuts evolved on the cool mountain slopes of the island, hence is why they are short and stocky to the point people question if it is a coconut. Also, would Maypan hybrids be recommended because they are a hybrid between Malayan and Panama.

[GottmitAlex]

4 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

I heard that Samoan dwarf coconuts evolved on the cool mountain slopes of the island, hence is why they are short and stocky to the point people question if it is a coconut. Also, would Maypan hybrids be recommended because they are a hybrid between Malayan and Panama.

Maypans are still tall. However since most are yellow/golden, I recommend green for your situation.

And get 2 or 3. Chances are some will perish.

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by GottmitAlex

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

1 minute ago, GottmitAlex said:

Maypans are still tall. However since most are yellow/golden, I recommend green for your situation.

And get 2 or 3. Chances are one some will perish.

 

Ok. I belive the corona coconut palm is a dwarf variety, considering how little its grown.

[GottmitAlex]

Just now, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Ok. I belive the corona coconut palm is a dwarf variety, considering how little its grown.

Who knows. Bear in mind during cold weather, coconuts (and many other palms) decrease or pause their growth.

 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

Just now, GottmitAlex said:

Who knows. Bear in mind during cold weather, coconuts (and many other palms) decrease or pause their growth.

 

Well its been there for about 12 years. There is a youtuber online in Lake placid, with temperatures like me, who has a Malayan dwarf that was about the same height at that age.

[mnorell]

7 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Ok. I belive the corona coconut palm is a dwarf variety, considering how little its grown.

"Dwarf" coconuts are not really small in stature (perhaps an argument could be made for the Niu Leka or a couple of others). The dwarf designation merely refers to the fact that they fruit at a low height (thus easy pickings on plantations) and that they grow more slowly than, say, a Panama tall. But Malayan greens (sometimes called Malayan Green Dwarf) can make a beautiful tall grove of palms. It just takes them longer than some of the other types. The fastest coconut forms (Panama being the fastest I know) put on close to two feet of trunk a year in the Florida Keys; about a foot a year for most other forms). The Corona coconut can hardly be expected to be growing robustly enough to have become very tall. The tallest known coconut in SoCal is the La Quinta, and it is indeed a fairly good-sized specimen. But coconuts grow slowly in most of Southern California because they do their growing at night, and California nights (outside of the low desert) are quite cool, which makes them move more slowly than they would in Florida, Hawai'i or other humid, tropical climates with their very warm nights.

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

Wait they grow at night?

[mnorell]

20 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Wait they grow at night?

Yes, only at night. They photosynthesize during the day, then "switch gears" at sunset and begin producing new tissue using the carbohydrates that have been generated through photosynthesis (or that they have stored previously). You can easily observe this phenomenon by marking a new leaf-spear emerging from the crown of a palm with a pen or sharpie. Do this in the morning after sunrise and again just before sunset and you will see no movement of that spear. But look again the next morning and you will suddenly see the product of the plant's nocturnal growth. This is true of any palm I have ever tested, and indeed for just about every monocot that I know; though I have witnessed some growth in bananas in daylight, and also in some heliconias late in the day before it actually goes dark. Nevertheless even in those cases the nighttime growth is quite pronounced while any daytime growth is fairly small. 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

9 hours ago, mnorell said:

Yes, only at night. They photosynthesize during the day, then "switch gears" at sunset and begin producing new tissue using the carbohydrates that have been generated through photosynthesis (or that they have stored previously). You can easily observe this phenomenon by marking a new leaf-spear emerging from the crown of a palm with a pen or sharpie. Do this in the morning after sunrise and again just before sunset and you will see no movement of that spear. But look again the next morning and you will suddenly see the product of the plant's nocturnal growth. This is true of any palm I have ever tested, and indeed for just about every monocot that I know; though I have witnessed some growth in bananas in daylight, and also in some heliconias late in the day before it actually goes dark. Nevertheless even in those cases the nighttime growth is quite pronounced while any daytime growth is fairly small. 

Well thats good i guess because again, we get 265 sunny days a year thats about as much as if not more than some coconut growing places in central Florida

[mnorell]

13 minutes ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Well thats good i guess because again, we get 265 sunny days a year thats about as much as if not more than some coconut growing places in central Florida

Unfortunately that doesn't have too much bearing on the process. Which is plainly supported by the many beautiful coconuts growing in Central Florida. Coconuts need warmth to carry out their metabolic processes, and that very importantly means that it wants nighttime temperatures, when it is busy manufacturing new cells, to be in the 70s and 80s. Spend some time in Florida (or any other warm, tropical climate) watching coconuts grow during the warm season (when sunlight is often muted by cloud-cover) and the point will be driven home very quickly. They can be awesomely fast-growing under those circumstances. Even there, in the winter, where temperatures are similar to or warmer than coastal California during summer, coconuts slow down markedly in their growth. The cool-to-chilly evenings and nights in California, which many people enjoy for their own personal comfort, are anathema to a lowland tropical palm like a coconut. That's why Howea, Beccariophoenix, Attalea and some of the other cocoid palms and hybrids would be a much better choice for that deluxe tropical feel than Cocos for pretty much all of the mostly frostless areas of California.