What varieties where the coconut palms that survived the 2010 freezes?

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

So i recently heard that there was some huge freeze event in Florida in 2010, and some varieties did better than others. I'm trying to find a variety that will be most suited to the area i'm from. I know that some areas with winter temps similar to here in various places have coconut palms, and even heard of one in a pot in Santa Ana. 

[kinzyjr]

@coconuts_dont_growhere_but

Welcome to PalmTalk.  I guess it would depend on "where" in Florida specifically.  Inland in Central Florida, the survivors are in protected microclimates, predominantly of types Jamaican Tall, Panama Tall, Maypan hybrids, and Green Malayan Dwarf.  Toward the coast and further south, there are likely survivors of more varieties.  In your locality, you most likely want to find out which variety the Corona Coconut is and go from there.  @GottmitAlex will likely have good advice for you as well.

Probably the most famous inland survivor is the "I-Drive Coconut" (Google Street View).  @palmsOrl believes it to a Jamaican Tall.

I'd lean toward that or maybe a Pacific Tall, but I'm certainly no expert on the varieties.  My go-to with Jamaican Tall is usually the shape of the crown.  They usually have a full crown that is nearly spherical in shape.  The Malayan varieties have more of an umbrella-shaped crown.  Hard to use that method when they are trimmed though...

I personally grow Jamaican Tall, Green Malayan Dwarf and Maypan.  The Green Malayan is my oldest (2011).

[PalmatierMeg]

On Jan 11, 2010 our yard hit an all time low of 28.5F (I've lived here since 1993). Between Jan. & Sep. I lost over 30 species of tropical palms - the last, a Hydriastele beguinii, took 9 months to die. I had one Green Malayan juvenile coconut and lost that, too. My recollection is that any coconuts more than a few miles from the Gulf or not close to any body of water (I live on a freshwater canal) were toast. Survivors in the fishing village of Matlacha east of Pine Island took serious damage but eventually came back.

My other recollection is that the majority of the equally cold sensitive, weedy Adonidia merrillii, the ubiquitous Christmas palm, were wiped out. The few that survived that winter did not flower or set seeds for two years - Hallelujah.

[ruskinPalms]

The thing about the winter of 2010 was the prolonged “cool” that did in a lot of coconuts. I can distinctly remember a lot of sea fog that year, meaning even when a warm airmass moved in, sea fog would form over the abnormally cool gulf and bay waters and make it easily 15 to 20 degrees F cooler than areas just a few miles inland (I.e. 80 degrees inland, 60 to 65 on the coast). Those coastal coconuts were subjected to a lot of prolonged cool and damp weather that year with a lot less sun than usual, not too unlike coastal California. The last significant freeze was in Jan 2018 when an advective freeze took me down to 27F. I had a green Malayan dwarf in the ground that only suffered about 20% burn and put out one floppy frond prior to resuming business as usual. It is in a Spot protected from north winds and gets the first rays of light in the morning and is pretty much full sun all day in the winter so that helps. No ponds or any water of consequence near it (which might be a good thing believe it or not). Unless you are on big bodies of water like the gulf, bay or one of those multi thousand acre lakes in central Florida, I have a bad feeling that these little retention ponds cause more harm than good. I lived on a retention pond in Ruskin from about 2005 to 2009 and all it seemed to do is steam on cold nights and create a great environment for frost or frozen dew to form on my palms. I had way more damage in Ruskin than I have ever had here in Parrish and the ultimate temps may go a little lower where I am now. I have yet to see frost on the ground or car windshield here, maybe a little on roof tops once, maybe because it is so damn dry here in the winter. 

[ruskinPalms]

 
 

Temp map for my area during that freeze. Notice how the D. lutescens In the background. Coconuts are maybe a little hardier than people think as long as freezes are brief and followed by sun and daytime heating. 

[ruskinPalms]

Here it is right now after this winter

 

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

6 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

The thing about the winter of 2010 was the prolonged “cool” that did in a lot of coconuts. I can distinctly remember a lot of sea fog that year, meaning even when a warm airmass moved in, sea fog would form over the abnormally cool gulf and bay waters and make it easily 15 to 20 degrees F cooler than areas just a few miles inland (I.e. 80 degrees inland, 60 to 65 on the coast). Those coastal coconuts were subjected to a lot of prolonged cool and damp weather that year with a lot less sun than usual, not too unlike coastal California. The last significant freeze was in Jan 2018 when an advective freeze took me down to 27F. I had a green Malayan dwarf in the ground that only suffered about 20% burn and put out one floppy frond prior to resuming business as usual. It is in a Spot protected from north winds and gets the first rays of light in the morning and is pretty much full sun all day in the winter so that helps. No ponds or any water of consequence near it (which might be a good thing believe it or not). Unless you are on big bodies of water like the gulf, bay or one of those multi thousand acre lakes in central Florida, I have a bad feeling that these little retention ponds cause more harm than good. I lived on a retention pond in Ruskin from about 2005 to 2009 and all it seemed to do is steam on cold nights and create a great environment for frost or frozen dew to form on my palms. I had way more damage in Ruskin than I have ever had here in Parrish and the ultimate temps may go a little lower where I am now. I have yet to see frost on the ground or car windshield here, maybe a little on roof tops once, maybe because it is so damn dry here in the winter. 

If thats the case how long will they survive with daytime temps of below 65? What about 60? 55?

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

5 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

 
 

Temp map for my area during that freeze. Notice how the D. lutescens In the background. Coconuts are maybe a little hardier than people think as long as freezes are brief and followed by sun and daytime heating. 

Yeah thats what happens around here in California the coldest nights usually have days of well over 60 degrees

[ruskinPalms]

I’m not sure what are the lowest average temps that a coconut can survive. They grow in Bermuda and I think the Canary Islands which do not have nearly as much overall heat as say Florida or Cuba but also don’t go as low on temps. I’m sure there are some experts on this forum that could give you a better answer. As someone mentioned, if you can replicate the microclimate of the corona California coconut in your yard, then you might be able to pull it off. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

22 hours ago, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

If thats the case how long will they survive with daytime temps of below 65? What about 60? 55?

Where I live on the east side if Corpus Christi, Texas (Flour Bluff to be exact, about 6/10 of a mile inland from the Laguna Madre), I estimate my normal high/low temp in Jan. to be 64F/50F, which would give me an average temp of about 57F, chillier than Coconut Palms like (lowest average temp of 60F and above is what they need, especially for soil temp), but in my case, in normal winters, the average temp between high/low and thus average soil temp is only below 60F for about 3 weeks.  Also, in normal winters, my yard usually gets down to about 33F on the coldest morning, and usually only gets into the 30'sF about 4 times each winter.  We have some days in the winter with highs in the upper 70'sF to low 80'sF, but we also have extended periods with highs in the 40'sF and 50'sF with lows in the 40'F and chilly drizzle.  I have 3 Coconut Palms in my yard.  One has been in the ground for 4 winters.  It is a Green Malayan Dwarf.  It is about 17ft. tall in overall height with 2ft.of woody trunk height at its base.  It was trunking and about 10 ft. tall in overall height when I planted it.  The first two winters I protected it with Christmas lights and wrapped the trunk with a blanket.  The first two winters, it was exposed to at least 4 or 5 freezes in the upper 20'sF' total including a 3.5 inch snowstorm, and it has survived.  The coldest night it has experienced is 27.7F.  I also have 2 , 10 ft. tall Coconut Palms that I sprouted from nuts washed up on the beach here.  They are about 3.5 years old.  One is a Maymex Hybrid cross between a Golden Malayan Dwarf and Mexican Tall, and the other is I think a Mexican Tall.  They spent this whole winter unprotected.  They all 3 experienced new leaves that snapped and broke in the middle after 2 spells of REALLY warm weather in the 80'sF on day in November, then about 40F the next afternoon, once in November, then again in December, which lead to the new leaves collapsing and breaking due to shock and browning/weakening g of the leaves in the middle as the tried to emerge.  But now they are all growing again.  I hope this helps you.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I also grow everything ALL ORGANIC, which apparently increases the cold hardiness/extended cool hardiness of tropical trees and plants by 2F to 3F or more depending on the species.  So, that gives me a big edge when it comes to successfully growing my Coconut Palms in this marginal climate for them.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Mr. Coconut Palm

[coconuts_dont_growhere_but]

2 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Where I live on the east side if Corpus Christi, Texas (Flour Bluff to be exact, about 6/10 of a mile inland from the Laguna Madre), I estimate my normal high/low temp in Jan. to be 64F/50F, which would give me an average temp of about 57F, chillier than Coconut Palms like (lowest average temp of 60F and above is what they need, especially for soil temp), but in my case, in normal winters, the average temp between high/low and thus average soil temp is only below 60F for about 3 weeks.  Also, in normal winters, my yard usually gets down to about 33F on the coldest morning, and usually only gets into the 30'sF about 4 times each winter.  We have some days in the winter with highs in the upper 70'sF to low 80'sF, but we also have extended periods with highs in the 40'sF and 50'sF with lows in the 40'F and chilly drizzle.  I have 3 Coconut Palms in my yard.  One has been in the ground for 4 winters.  It is a Green Malayan Dwarf.  It is about 17ft. tall in overall height with 2ft.of woody trunk height at its base.  It was trunking and about 10 ft. tall in overall height when I planted it.  The first two winters I protected it with Christmas lights and wrapped the trunk with a blanket.  The first two winters, it was exposed to at least 4 or 5 freezes in the upper 20'sF' total including a 3.5 inch snowstorm, and it has survived.  The coldest night it has experienced is 27.7F.  I also have 2 , 10 ft. tall Coconut Palms that I sprouted from nuts washed up on the beach here.  They are about 3.5 years old.  One is a Maymex Hybrid cross between a Golden Malayan Dwarf and Mexican Tall, and the other is I think a Mexican Tall.  They spent this whole winter unprotected.  They all 3 experienced new leaves that snapped and broke in the middle after 2 spells of REALLY warm weather in the 80'sF on day in November, then about 40F the next afternoon, once in November, then again in December, which lead to the new leaves collapsing and breaking due to shock and browning/weakening g of the leaves in the middle as the tried to emerge.  But now they are all growing again.  I hope this helps you.

Over here the high/low is about 67/40. There are some days where the temp goes above 70, and some days where the temp is between 55 and 60(which are usually rainy days) but the low is like 45. Nevertheless, there are only a few days where he sun's warmth cannot be felt, since nonstop rain for an entire day is rare, and we get 265 sunny days a year. I think i live in a solid zone 10a or at least a very warm zone 9b(I can tell cause the passionfruit vine outside gets only a little frost damage per year). The forecast once said it would be in the high 20s the entire night from 1 am to 8 am just last February, but there was less than 5 mm of ice on the water bucket, so it was probably not the case around here mabye because I'm on higher ground(there should be a good third of an inch of ice on there.) I have queen palms and pygmy date palms have no noticeable damage whatsoever and there are also washintona palms with no damage either. I know there some foxtail palms or royal palms or king palms and their look alikes around here, just dont remember where, and i dont know how they did over the frost. Theres some cyads that arent damaged either. I also cant remember where the bird of paradises are but they exist. The apricot tree and and pluot tree where in bloom at the time but had no noticeable frost damage. So, yeah im definately zone 10, but that doesnt mean the cool temps wont do the coconuts in.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 3/15/2020 at 11:42 PM, coconuts_dont_growhere_but said:

Over here the high/low is about 67/40. There are some days where the temp goes above 70, and some days where the temp is between 55 and 60(which are usually rainy days) but the low is like 45. Nevertheless, there are only a few days where he sun's warmth cannot be felt, since nonstop rain for an entire day is rare, and we get 265 sunny days a year. I think i live in a solid zone 10a or at least a very warm zone 9b(I can tell cause the passionfruit vine outside gets only a little frost damage per year). The forecast once said it would be in the high 20s the entire night from 1 am to 8 am just last February, but there was less than 5 mm of ice on the water bucket, so it was probably not the case around here mabye because I'm on higher ground(there should be a good third of an inch of ice on there.) I have queen palms and pygmy date palms have no noticeable damage whatsoever and there are also washintona palms with no damage either. I know there some foxtail palms or royal palms or king palms and their look alikes around here, just dont remember where, and i dont know how they did over the frost. Theres some cyads that arent damaged either. I also cant remember where the bird of paradises are but they exist. The apricot tree and and pluot tree where in bloom at the time but had no noticeable frost damage. So, yeah im definately zone 10, but that doesnt mean the cool temps wont do the coconuts in.

Samuel, I envy your normal daytime high if that is it for January, as it is a couple of degrees warmer than mine, but your normal overnight lows are 10 degrees below mine, which makes your area too chilly for Coconut Palms to survive there.  A normal low of 40F is way too cold for them, unless maybe you had warm enough daytime highs to offset the chilly overnight lows, say normal daytime highs in the 70'sF, but even so, I still think those lows on a regular basis would still be too chilly for them to survive.

John

[Cape Garrett]

2010 was a cold Winter and some palms were lost throughout town.  I think people take this cold to some extreme level...this was lost, all Christmas palms wiped out, coconuts...not true at all.  Christmas palms took a hit but probably 90% plus came back just fine.  Very few coconuts died in my area. Some yes but those were not exactly healthy to begin with.  Mostly what dies was not well taken care of.  I live in Cape Coral Florida.  I lost no palms and had over 60 species...hydriastele,  pinanga k., christmas palms, chambeyronia,  cocos species, king palms, ptychospermas, veitchia,  bottle, spindle,  I can go on.  Lost not one.   All 10B palms.  Damage yes.  Death no.  Go with a tall variety coconut palm.  The dwarfs are a bit more cold sensitive.  Although your nighttime  lows are so chilly not sure if it can work for you.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Cape Garrett

[Jeff985]

8 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Samuel, I envy your normal daytime high if that is it for January, as it is a couple of degrees warmer than mine, but your normal overnight lows are 10 degrees below mine, which makes your area too chilly for Coconut Palms to survive there.  A normal low of 40F is way too cold for them, unless maybe you had warm enough daytime highs to offset the chilly overnight lows, say normal daytime highs in the 70'sF, but even so, I still think those lows on a regular basis would still be too chilly for them to survive.

John

Haven’t seen an updated picture of your cocos in a while. Why are you holding out on us John?

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 3/29/2020 at 9:10 AM, Jeff985 said:

Haven’t seen an updated picture of your cocos in a while. Why are you holding out on us John?

Sorry about that.  Things have been really stressful lately as my wife lost her job at the hotel she worked at.  I will try to take some good photos of them and get them posted here later this week.

[Jeff985]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Sorry about that.  Things have been really stressful lately as my wife lost her job at the hotel she worked at.  I will try to take some good photos of them and get them posted here later this week.

Damn... Sorry to hear that John. I hear the unemployment website and call center is flooded, but if you can get through, it’s worthwhile. Good luck. 

[redant]

I lost a bunch of coconuts in that freeze, my tall, Jamaican or whatever version of tall it is went through just fine, no damage. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 4/7/2020 at 9:33 PM, Jeff985 said:

Damn... Sorry to hear that John. I hear the unemployment website and call center is flooded, but if you can get through, it’s worthwhile. Good luck. 

Thanks.

[sonoranfans]

coconuts are probably the most planted palm tree in the world for a few centuries for the fruit.   They are not native to hawaii and yet there they are in huge numbers.  Finding new supposedly cold  tolerant coconut genetics is kind of like reinventing the wheel, already been done.   there might even be threads in the freeze section that have answered some of theses question.  This site has more than 100,000 posts on palms and palm growing. I'm pretty sure the different varieties have already been planted out named or un named.  Drive around and look for a big one(or 3) to find out what survived 2010.  One caveat is that near the beach they are planted with typically 10'+ trunk already.  When I drive around and look at them in my area, the larger ones fall off drastically as you leave the water area as Meg said.   there are some exceptions of ones in bradenton that stand next to a warm building, but mostly its pretty clear that they dont last longer than say 15-20 years here and possibly less if you plant near a 30 year cold event.  I saw 2010 as well, 28F x 2 nights of radiational cold with 5-6 hrs(?) below freezing.  It killed all the ones west east of route 41 and many towards the gulf from there.  They also tend to look unhealthy, the ones that do survive.  At the gulf, near the water they look OK, not miami ok, but not tortured.