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Palm’s Throughout Destin Florida

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Estlander
4 minutes ago, Xenon said:

There are hundreds, if not thousands of 15+ year old queens in Houston.  Plenty of 15+ year old pygmy dates as well. 
Doubt Destin can compete with a 28F mean avg minimum in the last 20 years. 
houstonavgmin.PNG.815bd18fee9faba0502ac0cc958c16c4.PNG

I don’t know what Destin’s mean avg. minimum in the last 20 years is to compare.

Destin’s official temps, in the past at least, came from the Fort Walton Beach-Destin airport or the Eglin AFB. Both on the mainland and much colder. So probably difficult to find reliable historic data for Destin.

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Jeff985
Just now, Estlander said:

I don’t know what Destin’s mean avg. minimum in the last 20 years is to compare.

Destin’s official temps, in the past at least, came from the Fort Walton Beach-Destin airport or the Eglin AFB. Both on the mainland and much colder. So probably difficult to find reliable historic data for Destin.

The Houston numbers are from hobby airport. Not one of the warmer spots. Not one of the coldest spots either. It’s outside the urban heat island and too far from the water to benefit from that. 

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Jeff985
5 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Losing a few is quite different from 99% wipeout. It sounds like you want to argue Houston is colder than Destin, but the many queen palms here and the figures don't lie. At this point, the central heat island of Houston is probably trending even warmer than downtown or lakeshore New Orleans. Central Houston has only seen below 25F once (2018) in the last 20 years and at one point had 10+ year foxtails and mango trees.  The airport data (Hobby) gets some urban effect but not as much as the central core of the city. 
 

Don’t forget about the royals and kings that grew for an extended period. 

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Estlander
13 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Losing a few is quite different from 99% wipeout. It sounds like you want to argue Houston is colder than Destin, but the many queen palms here and the figures don't lie. At this point, the central heat island of Houston is probably trending even warmer than downtown or lakeshore New Orleans. Central Houston has only seen below 25F once (2018) in the last 20 years and at one point had 10+ year foxtails and mango trees.  The airport data (Hobby) gets some urban effect but not as much as the central core of the city. 

 

Houston is a MUCH bigger area with millions of people. That’s just way more people there to plant things. Purely a numbers game. 
And I’m pretty sure you lost more than a few in 18-19F.
99% wipeout hasn’t happened here either. 
 

Central heat island? Artificial heat doesn’t exactly mean your area is warmer by default as set by nature, and not a fair comparison. 
No heat island effect here to boost our numbers. 
The matter of a fact is that no Queen would ever live out it’s natural life cycle in Houston, just as it wouldn’t here. 

Edited by Estlander

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Xenon
8 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Houston is a MUCH bigger area with millions of people. That’s just way more people there to plant things. Purely a numbers game. 
And I’m pretty sure you lost more than a few in 18-19F.
99% wipeout hasn’t happened here either. 
 

Central heat island? Artificial heat doesn’t exactly mean your area is warmer by default as set by nature, and not a fair comparison. 
No heat island effect here to boost our numbers. 
The matter of a fact is that no Queen would ever live out it’s natural life cycle in Houston, just as it wouldn’t here. 

The fact of the matter is Houston is warmer than Destin and queens live longer and look better in Houston than they do in Destin.  Houston also has pygmy dates while Destin doesn't. I've been to Destin, Panama City, etc and it all looks colder than Houston. 

Edited by Xenon

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Jeff985
4 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Houston is a MUCH bigger area with millions of people. That’s just way more people there to plant things. Purely a numbers game. 
And I’m pretty sure you lost more than a few in 18-19F.
99% wipeout hasn’t happened here either. 
 

Central heat island? Artificial heat doesn’t exactly mean your area is warmer by default as set by nature, and not a fair comparison. 
No heat island effect here to boost our numbers. 
The matter of a fact is that no Queen would ever live out it’s natural life cycle in Houston, just as it wouldn’t here. 

Again, it depends on where in Houston. Not all of Houston experienced teens in 2018. Yes , northwest Houston had a higher fatality rate for queens. Probably about 30-40% died. Central Houston and southeast Houston very few died. In southeast Houston there weren’t even many roebeleniis that died. Majestys, And bismarkias also did very well. Call urban heat islands artificial if you like, but the effects it has on plant is very real and it’s only going to get warmer. 

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Jeff985

All 2018 survivors. This is just a small sample I happened to have on my phone. Photos I took around my neighborhood for another thread. 

8B8C9C74-40A8-432C-AE64-82A91823722F.jpeg

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Estlander
36 minutes ago, Xenon said:

The fact of the matter is Houston is warmer than Destin and queens live longer and look better in Houston than they do in Destin.  Houston also has pygmy dates while Destin doesn't.

You mean your urban heat island is warmer than Destin, right? There are plenty of decent size Pygmy Date Palms as well. In the past threads I have posted pics of many of them. I also have one in my yard, as well as two Majesty palms. 

Now how can a Pygmy Date survive a 19-18F? These guys start really struggling around 25F to stay alive. Were the only survivors in the artificial urban heat island?

Honestly I don't care if Houston is warmer or not. Houston is somewhere at western Jacksonville level, but nowhere near Jax Beach level.  Don't make Houston out to be like it's some subtropical palm paradise, cause it's not. I'm really struggling to find palms in Houston neighborhoods on Google maps, so it's not like they're everywhere.

And how many palms exactly are native to Houston area? At least the panhandle has several, like Sabal Palmetto, Serenoa Repens, Sabal minor, Needle palm.

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Estlander
1 hour ago, Xenon said:

The fact of the matter is Houston is warmer than Destin and queens live longer and look better in Houston than they do in Destin.  Houston also has pygmy dates while Destin doesn't. I've been to Destin, Panama City, etc and it all looks colder than Houston. 

And how did all the 8B palms, as you put them, like P. Canariensis/Dactylifera/Sylvestris, Livistona Chinensis/Decora, W. Robusta do in that 19-18F night back in Jan 2018?  SURELY they all looked pristine in your true 9A, and not a fake one like Destin, which is at best 8B/9A cause we can't grow Queens here as successfully as you can.

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Xenon
2 hours ago, Estlander said:

You mean your urban heat island is warmer than Destin, right? There are plenty of decent size Pygmy Date Palms as well. In the past threads I have posted pics of many of them. I also have one in my yard, as well as two Majesty palms. 

Now how can a Pygmy Date survive a 19-18F? These guys start really struggling around 25F to stay alive. Were the only survivors in the artificial urban heat island?

Honestly I don't care if Houston is warmer or not. Houston is somewhere at western Jacksonville level, but nowhere near Jax Beach level.  Don't make Houston out to be like it's some subtropical palm paradise, cause it's not. I'm really struggling to find palms in Houston neighborhoods on Google maps, so it's not like they're everywhere.

And how many palms exactly are native to Houston area? At least the panhandle has several, like Sabal Palmetto, Serenoa Repens, Sabal minor, Needle palm.

The biggest difference is that Houston is essentially 9b/10a for many years and may only see low 20s once or twice a decade (or not at all). Houston (using Hobby Airport as a "middle" source i.e not the warmest/nor the coldest area) didn't see temperatures below 25F from 1991-1995, 1997-2009 and again from 2012-2016. The past two winters have not seen temperatures below 30F and several pockets have not seen a freeze at all since Jan 2018.  The occasional 20F freeze is usually followed by a string of very mild winters which allows things that are bud hardy enough (pygmy dates and majesties are indeed bud hardy to 20F) to fully recover. Mature foxtail palms planted in the early 2000s persisted in our "aritificial microclimate" until 2017/2018. 

If you crunch the numbers, both Houston (Hobby Airport) and Jacksonville Beach average an extreme min low of 28F for the 1990-2019 period. 
jackbeach.PNG.f0504e333907bac143fffcc70e93a17e.PNG



In case you have trouble finding stuff on Google, 

Here are some queen palms in Houston, they've been there since 2007 (and probably well before that): https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7059628,-95.4630974,3a,75.6y,3.32h,101.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1saBl9_i6M7a1pUaJqTUAylA!2e0!5s20190101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

And here are some pygmy dates that also date to at least 2007: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7700478,-95.3703639,3a,71.9y,359.16h,103.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4nvrnJ2HcgDtrr1UDdrSWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Some dead trunks to prove they are unprotected, there are also some queen palms that tower over the house just behind: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7676653,-95.3801321,3a,75y,34.38h,94.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2UU8TXMUrTEE2B5_D5HmHQ!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i16384!8i8192
 

Edited by Xenon

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Xenon
2 hours ago, Estlander said:

And how did all the 8B palms, as you put them, like P. Canariensis/Dactylifera/Sylvestris, Livistona Chinensis/Decora, W. Robusta do in that 19-18F night back in Jan 2018?  SURELY they all looked pristine in your true 9A, and not a fake one like Destin, which is at best 8B/9A cause we can't grow Queens here as successfully as you can.

Yeah there was a bit of bronzing, nothing major; most stuff recovered by the end of summer. The Livistona decora and W. robusta lining Interstate 45 were flowering in late summer 2018 and of course look pristine by now. W. robusta is by far the most common palm in Houston and they pop up as weeds along I-610 and I-10 and are seemingly left there to become part of the greenscape. We have/had many pre-89 P. canariensis but they have been slowly dying off in the last 10-15 years due to Texas Phoenix Palm Decline. P. dactyfilera is really only popular in commercial landscapes in Houston and is featured prominently in areas like NASA Road 1, the Memorial corridor, City Centre and several other areas as you travel along both of the major interstates and other major roads. 

Not sure why you think this is some kind of pissing contest, even USDA agrees Destin is borderline 9a.  Notice how far inland zone 9a extends in the Houston. All of those palms you mentioned are found in 8b/borderline 9a areas of Texas like Austin, San Antonio, College Station etc. 
1493810718_destin8b.PNG.6e17d13d976125b957d4064c7e7f855f.PNGjacksonville.PNG.adcf8038460a85bae00ac9d35719ebb5.PNG1856341743_houston9a.PNG.0d08be2d939dfe70e3d7830012a23375.PNG

Edited by Xenon

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Estlander
8 hours ago, Xenon said:

1493810718_destin8b.PNG.6e17d13d976125b957d4064c7e7f855f.PNG

Yes, and USDA is wrong here, as they are with many locations. Can’t take these maps too literally. If you extend that map you’ll see they have many more inland areas here as 9A that get quite a bit colder than Destin and have no bays around them to moderate temperatures. 

Destin is actually one of the warmest areas here with the largest palm diversity as it has a large bay to the north and northwest. 

USDA probably took temperatures from the Destin-Fort Walton airport and just threw Destin together with Fort Walton Beach and the rest of Okaloosa Co. 

All the southern parts of adjacent counties are in 9A. Why they left Destin as 8B is absolutely absurd and a mistake that has no basis in reality. 

And by placing Katy Tx as 9A shows how wrong USDA gets things in some areas. 
Katy can compete perhaps with Crestview here and not Destin. Lol  Even Crestview has more palms and they’re easy to find. 
I’ve been looking around Katy and all I see are a few Sagos. Haven’t seen a single palm yet, but I’ll keep on looking lol.

And don’t get me started about that place in winter. All those deciduous trees everywhere. Yuck. I’m not getting even a remotely subtropical vibe from that place. 
Even nature didn’t give you any native palms, except perhaps Sabal minor. 

If humans didn’t plant any foreign palm species, the panhandle would have four palm species against your lonely Sabal minor. So, already by default, as nature intended, this areas is more subtropical by looks.

And the Queens and Pygmy Dates you’ve posted. Laughable. Those are your decades old specimens that have been there for decades? Lol. We have Pygmy Dates the same size here and Queens that are bigger and better looking. 
I have no time nor the wish to fill this thread with pics again to continue this piss fight. Use search and you’ll see where I have  posted many pics with our Queens and Pygmies. 

Edited by Estlander

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Jeff985
24 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Yes, and USDA is wrong here, as they are with many locations. Can’t take these maps too literally. If you extend that map you’ll see they have many more inland areas here as 9A that get quite a bit colder than Destin and have no bays around them to moderate temperatures. 

Destin is actually one of the warmest areas here with the largest palm diversity as it has a large bay to the north and northwest. 

USDA probably took temperatures from the Destin-Fort Walton airport and just threw Destin together with Fort Walton Beach and the rest of Okaloosa Co. 

All the southern parts of adjacent counties are in 9A. Why they left Destin as 8B is absolutely absurd and a mistake that has no basis in reality. 

And by placing Katy Tx as 9A shows how wrong USDA gets things in some areas. 
Katy can compete perhaps with Crestview here and not Destin. Lol  Even Crestview has more palms and they’re easy to find. 
I’ve been looking around Katy and all I see are a few Sagos. Haven’t seen a single palm yet, but I’ll keep on looking lol.

And don’t get me started about that place in winter. All those deciduous trees everywhere. Yuck. I’m not getting even a remotely subtropical vibe from that place. 
Even nature didn’t give you any native palms, except perhaps Sabal minor. 

If humans didn’t plant any foreign palm species, the panhandle would have four palm species against your lonely Sabal minor. So, already by default, as nature intended, this areas is more subtropical by looks.

And the Queens and Pygmy Dates you’ve posted. Laughable. Those are your decades old specimens that have been there for decades? Lol. We have Pygmy Dates the same size here and Queens that are bigger and better looking. 
I have no time nor the wish to fill this thread with pics again to continue this piss fight. Use search and you’ll see where I have  posted many pics with our Queens and Pygmies. 

I used to live in Katy. It is one of the coldest places in the Houston area, yet there are tens, of thousands of palms there. Robustas are literally weeds there. They grow in ditches and cracks in sidewalks. Queens aren’t hard to find. 2018 killed 30-40% of the queens in Katy. Foxtails and kings survive there for about a decade at a time. In southeast Houston people plant bottle palms in the ground. I’m not delusional, I know they are doomed, but they do survive in the ground, without protection for 5 or so years at a time. There’s even an Adonidia a couple miles from my house that just came through it’s second winter in the ground undamaged. Yes this area can see extremes, but the overwhelming majority of years are warm 9b or cool 10a. We’ve posted our annual lows over the last 30 years. The numbers don’t lie. And those numbers are from a spot that is not a warm spot, nor is it a cold spot. I live on the bay. 2018 my place bottomed out at 22f. That’s the only time since 1989 it’s gotten below 25f here.

 

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Estlander
9 hours ago, Xenon said:

The biggest difference is that Houston is essentially 9b/10a  The past two winters have not seen temperatures below 30F and several pockets have not seen a freeze at all since Jan 2018. 
The occasional 20F freeze is usually followed by a string of very mild winters which allows things that are bud hardy enough (pygmy dates and majesties are indeed bud hardy to 20F) to fully recover. 

And I suppose you think we experience bad freezes here every winter? 
You do realize that it’s essentially the same here, right? After a bad winter we too get a string of warm ones. Last winter’s low here is only 33F. This winter we dropped to 30F just once. That’s two back to back 10A winters. Everything here has a chance to recover just fine after a bad one as well. 

And Majesties are definitely a no-go in Houston if you want a nice looking specimen. The one Jeff posted is up against a wall and still has a severely beat up trunk. 

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Jeff985
7 minutes ago, Estlander said:

And I suppose you think we experience bad freezes here every winter? 
You do realize that it’s essentially the same here, right? After a bad winter we too get a string of warm ones. Last winter’s low here is only 33F. This winter we dropped to 30F just once. That’s two back to back 10A winters. Everything here has a chance to recover just fine after a bad one as well. 

And Majesties are definitely a no-go in Houston if you want a nice looking specimen. The one Jeff posted is up against a wall and still has a severely beat up trunk. 

The majesty I posted is just one of the majestys in the Houston area. I just snapped that one because I drive by it every day. If you saw the rest of the property you would see that it’s very neglected. They rarely mow their damn yard, I can’t imagine they fertilize or water that thing, which majestys require to look decent. There are much better looking majestys in Houston. They are way under used though. I think it’s because they’re marketed as house plants. I know nothing about Destin nor will I pretend to. But to say things won’t grow here that I see every day is absurd. There is a palm talk member from Pensacola, which looks like it is really close to Destin. Judging by some of his posts low 20’s is fairly common. Maybe there is a temperature influence Destin has that Pensacola doesn’t. I don’t know, but you clearly know nothing about Houston. 

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Xenon
1 hour ago, Estlander said:

 

And by placing Katy Tx as 9A shows how wrong USDA gets things in some areas. 
Katy can compete perhaps with Crestview here and not Destin. Lol  Even Crestview has more palms and they’re easy to find. 
I’ve been looking around Katy and all I see are a few Sagos. Haven’t seen a single palm yet, but I’ll keep on looking lol.

And don’t get me started about that place in winter. All those deciduous trees everywhere. Yuck. I’m not getting even a remotely subtropical vibe from that place. 
Even nature didn’t give you any native palms, except perhaps Sabal minor. 

 

But does Crestview have 15+ year old queen palms? There is also Bismarckia planted in a completely exposed location dating to the mid 2000s here. Are we now going to call querns and Bismarckia 8b palms too? :winkie: 

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Estlander
2 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

. I know nothing about Destin nor will I pretend to. But to say things won’t grow here that I see every day is absurd. There is a palm talk member from Pensacola, which looks like it is really close to Destin. Judging by some of his posts low 20’s is fairly common. Maybe there is a temperature influence Destin has that Pensacola doesn’t. I don’t know, but you clearly know nothing about Houston. 

Fair enough. But Xenon certainly seems to be an expert, lol, Jumping in a thread that’s not even about Queens, and starts going on about what an ice box Destin is that can’t grow them, and how he can grow thousands of them. Not to mention Pygmy Dates that don’t even die in 19-18F. Must be some magical climate. 
I didn’t start this piss fight between our two locations. My point was never to claim that Destin is warmer. I was only trying to show that it’s not bad here after he started this nonsense, and that his climate is not anything to write home about either, especially Katy.

The way Xenon talks about Houston is as if it’s 9B or something. You’re nowhere even near to moving up to that classification.

You can’t even grow Norfolk Islands pines, which warm 9A areas in FL already can.

And even 9B areas in Florida have very few Royals, Foxtails etc. and lose them from time to time. Only in 9B/10A areas can you grow them reliably. So you guys better stick with Queens and magical Pygmy Dates that survive 19-18F. 
 



 

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Estlander
3 minutes ago, Xenon said:

But does Crestview have 15+ year old queen palms? There is also Bismarckia planted in a completely exposed location dating to the mid 2000s here. Are we now going to call querns and Bismarckia 8b palms too? :winkie: 

No Crestview doesn’t have any Queens that old. But for such a magical town with such a magical climate you sure are void of palms, even 8B palms. 

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Xenon
3 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Fair enough. But Xenon certainly seems to be an expert, lol, Jumping in a thread that’s not even about Queens, and starts going on about what an ice box Destin is that can’t grow them, and how he can grow thousands of them. Not to mention Pygmy Dates that don’t even die in 19-18F. Must be some magical climate. 
I didn’t start this piss fight between our two locations. My point was never to claim that Destin is warmer. I was only trying to show that it’s not bad here after he started this nonsense, and that his climate is not anything to write home about either, especially Katy.

The way Xenon talks about Houston is as if it’s 9B or something. You’re nowhere even near to moving up to that classification.

No need to be so personally attacked by a discussion centered around Houston (not Katy) vs. Destin. A few miles west of me is actually the hard boundary for pre-2010 queen palms. If you by the numbers, Houston is numerically zone 9b for the current 30 year period. The warmest microclimates are certainly 9b, dropping below 25F only once in the last 20 years sounds like 9b to me. But I never argued that claim either, totally okay with Houston being just warm 9a haha 

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Jeff985
9 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Fair enough. But Xenon certainly seems to be an expert, lol, Jumping in a thread that’s not even about Queens, and starts going on about what an ice box Destin is that can’t grow them, and how he can grow thousands of them. Not to mention Pygmy Dates that don’t even die in 19-18F. Must be some magical climate. 
I didn’t start this piss fight between our two locations. My point was never to claim that Destin is warmer. I was only trying to show that it’s not bad here after he started this nonsense, and that his climate is not anything to write home about either, especially Katy.

The way Xenon talks about Houston is as if it’s 9B or something. You’re nowhere even near to moving up to that classification.

You can’t even grow Norfolk Islands pines, which warm 9A areas in FL already can.

And even 9B areas in Florida have very few Royals, Foxtails etc. and lose them from time to time. Only in 9B/10A areas can you grow them reliably. So you guys better stick with Queens and magical Pygmy Dates that survive 19-18F. 
 



 

I’ll say it again... Not all of Houston got down to 19. The Houston metro area is 60 miles east to west and 80 miles north to south. A weather station inside a 4 square foot box can’t possibly be an accurate representation of an area that large with multiple weather influences. I can’t and won’t speak for Destin, but I can and will speak for Houston and therefore I will say there are still thousands of queens that survived 2018 and plenty of roebeleniis. Again inside the i610 loop and to the south and east of it very few died. Believe it or don’t that’s up to you. If you’re really concerned about it drive over here and see for yourself. As far as the pissing match goes, there is an obvious solution. Houston’s lows for the last 30 years have been posted. Do the same for Destin and see what the numbers say. I know Destin weather station isn’t in one of its warmer spots. Neither is ours so it seems like a fair comparison. 

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Estlander
10 minutes ago, Xenon said:

No need to be so personally attacked by a discussion centered around Houston (not Katy) vs. Destin. A few miles west of me is actually the hard boundary for pre-2010 queen palms. If you by the numbers, Houston is numerically zone 9b for the current 30 year period. The warmest microclimates are certainly 9b, dropping below 25F only once in the last 20 years sounds like 9b to me. But I never argued that claim either, totally okay with Houston being just warm 9a haha 

Don’t forget that there are pre 2010 Queens here as well and they look very good. 
Yes, in Houston the area where Queens can be grown longer term is much larger. Here that is only near the coast with bays to the north to moderate freezing temps coming in from north/northwest. 
 

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Xenon
2 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I’ll say it again... Not all of Houston got down to 19. The Houston metro area is 60 miles east to west and 80 miles north to south. A weather station inside a 4 square foot box can’t possibly be an accurate representation of an area that large with multiple weather influences. I can’t and won’t speak for Destin, but I can and will speak for Houston and therefore I will say there are still thousands of queens that survived 2018 and plenty of roebeleniis. 

To his credit, there are surviving roebelenii in the west 610 area that saw 19-20F. Magical or not, I don't know. That January 2018 freeze was a radiational one so there wasn't a significant temperature spread like usual. IAH saw 18F, most of the city saw 19F, inner loop 20F, around TMC was 21-22F (only area with significantly green queens), the bayfront was also reading low 20s. 

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JLM

Sorry to comment on this, but really @Jeff985 you asked me to do this. I put Pensacola as a big location center near me, im actually north of Pensacola and have already noted that on my location. Im in a solid 8b zone here being north of I-10. @Estlander already knew i wasnt exactly in Pensacola, so yeah, im going to get some mid-upper 20 degree nights. Thats because im not halfway surrounded by water like Destin is. When we have freezes here, Destin is the warmest spot on the map usually staying above freezing unless it gets too bad. I may not know nothing about Houston, but i can say this by looking at street view, i only see QUEENS near League City area, which is closer to the bay. Destin on the other hand, is surrounded by water with Choctawhatchee Bay to the north and the Gulf of Mexico to the south. The gulf usually stays above 68F which means the bay isnt far off from that. You have constant sea and land breezes which regulates temperatures throughout Destin. Houston has no interaction with with these said breezes, and is nothing a concrete artwork which will hold in the cold if it gets too bad. The gulf is not concrete, its water, and that water never usually goes below 65F, which means heat from the gulf is transported back and forth between Destin and the gulf. Im sorry but im in favor with Estlander because i do believe that although none of these two places are tropical, Destin is more tropical than Houston by a long shot. Those kings and royals you speak of probably dont last but more than 8 years max if even that. Let this piss fight come to an end peacefully. The matter is not really something to argue over, its just facts. Facts that Destin is more "tropical" than Houston. Thats all i have to say unless i get fired back upon.

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Estlander
8 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I’ll say it again... Not all of Houston got down to 19. The Houston metro area is 60 miles east to west and 80 miles north to south. A weather station inside a 4 square foot box can’t possibly be an accurate representation of an area that large with multiple weather influences. I can’t and won’t speak for Destin, but I can and will speak for Houston and therefore I will say there are still thousands of queens that survived 2018 and plenty of roebeleniis. Again inside the i610 loop and to the south and east of it very few died. Believe it or don’t that’s up to you. If you’re really concerned about it drive over here and see for yourself. As far as the pissing match goes, there is an obvious solution. Houston’s lows for the last 30 years have been posted. Do the same for Destin and see what the numbers say. I know Destin weather station isn’t in one of its warmer spots. Neither is ours so it seems like a fair comparison. 

Fair enough. The Houston urban heat island effect and being on the Gulf side helped some areas of town out a bit there in Jan. 2018. 
 


 

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Jeff985
38 minutes ago, JLM said:

Sorry to comment on this, but really @Jeff985 you asked me to do this. I put Pensacola as a big location center near me, im actually north of Pensacola and have already noted that on my location. Im in a solid 8b zone here being north of I-10. @Estlander already knew i wasnt exactly in Pensacola, so yeah, im going to get some mid-upper 20 degree nights. Thats because im not halfway surrounded by water like Destin is. When we have freezes here, Destin is the warmest spot on the map usually staying above freezing unless it gets too bad. I may not know nothing about Houston, but i can say this by looking at street view, i only see QUEENS near League City area, which is closer to the bay. Destin on the other hand, is surrounded by water with Choctawhatchee Bay to the north and the Gulf of Mexico to the south. The gulf usually stays above 68F which means the bay isnt far off from that. You have constant sea and land breezes which regulates temperatures throughout Destin. Houston has no interaction with with these said breezes, and is nothing a concrete artwork which will hold in the cold if it gets too bad. The gulf is not concrete, its water, and that water never usually goes below 65F, which means heat from the gulf is transported back and forth between Destin and the gulf. Im sorry but im in favor with Estlander because i do believe that although none of these two places are tropical, Destin is more tropical than Houston by a long shot. Those kings and royals you speak of probably dont last but more than 8 years max if even that. Let this piss fight come to an end peacefully. The matter is not really something to argue over, its just facts. Facts that Destin is more "tropical" than Houston. Thats all i have to say unless i get fired back upon.

Only way to really know is to look at Destin’s numbers. 

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Estlander

In honor of Xenon, I will post pics of some of the plant life around Destin-Okaloosa Island-Santa Rosa Beach that should demonstrate beautifully what zone Destin is in. And there's plenty more if that's not enough for him.

First, here are the Queens

 

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Estlander

Here is Arenga Engleri both back in 2011 and now. As you can see during that time it hasn't gotten cold enough to damage it.

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Estlander

Here are just a couple of many large Philodendrons here. Some have trunks that are 6ft tall. If Destin is such a freeze hole, then how have those managed to get such large trunks here?

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Estlander

Here are just some of Nicolai Strelizia. They even get large enough here to put on woody trunk and flower. One of mine is flowering right now and the other ones, if you look closely, have recently flowered as well.

Photo Mar 31, 4 58 06 PM.jpg

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Estlander

Here are some of P. Reclinata hybrids

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Estlander

Here are just some of the Pygmy Dates. There are more around town that I can go and take pics of if you don't believe me.

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Estlander

And Yucca Elephantipes, which are the least hardy of the Yucca. I have pics of only a few right now, but these are actually very common and there are even larger ones here. Again, I'd be happy to take pics of those as well and post them. Have a few those in my yard too. The last pic is one of mine.

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Photo Mar 31, 6 02 22 PM.jpg

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Xenon

Nice pics, thanks for posting them.  I never denied your area not having queens or pygmy dates, only that a great majority of them (probably all of the pygmy dates) were planted in the last 5-6 years post the big freeze you had in 2014.  Everything else you posted seems like standard low end 9a fare. I admittedly live in a colder western suburb of Houston which I consider the fringe of 9a and Yucca elephantipes, Strelitzia nicolai, and Philodendron selluom of that size or bigger are common landscape subjects here. Nothing that would turn heads. 

I won't accuse you of cherry picking, but all of the streetviews you posted either show queens/pygmy dates in 2011 that do not exist in 2017 or 2019 (probably killed in 2014) streetview or palms planted more recently like the queen on the state highway planted in 2015. 

Edited by Xenon

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Estlander
4 minutes ago, Xenon said:

I won't accuse you of cherry picking, but all of the streetviews you posted either show palms in 2011 that do not exist in 2017 or 2019 (probably killed in 2014) streetview or palms planted more recently like the queen on the state highway planted in 2015. 

Destin is a very new area. There was almost nothing here in the 80’s. As the area develops and gets built out more and more, and more palm choices become available, more get planted.
I don’t know any Queens that died in 2014, but I don’t deny that a couple of weaker one may have. But many new ones have been planted since. 
Destin bottomed out at 20F both in 2010 and 2014. If Queens and Pygmies don’t die in Houston in a 19-18F freeze, then why should they die here at 20F? 

And I very much like to see old and new streetview images for comparison from Houston as a proof that there are decades old Pygmies, Queens and Bismarckias. 

Decades old Queens, Pygmies and Bismarckias are very tall. Nothing you have shown me is larger than Queens here and most certainly not decades old. 

And ‘decades’ is not the same as 15 years. 
I would try to find them myself, but I simply don’t have that much free time to find those thousands of Queens there. They must be hiding from me. 
Yet, for some reason, I don’t have any trouble finding them in warmer areas than Houston closer to the Gulf, like League City etc. 

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Jeff985
13 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Destin is a very new area. There was almost nothing here in the 80’s. As the area develops and gets built out more and more, and more palm choices become available, more get planted.
I don’t know any Queens that died in 2014, but I don’t deny that a couple of weaker one may have. But many new ones have been planted since. 
Destin bottomed out at 20F both in 2010 and 2014. If Queens and Pygmies don’t die in Houston in a 19-18F freeze, then why should they die here at 20F? 

And I very much like to see old and new streetview images for comparison from Houston as a proof that there are decades old Pygmies, Queens and Bismarckias. 

Decades old Queens, Pygmies and Bismarckias are very tall. Nothing you have shown me is larger than Queens here and most certainly not decades old. 

And ‘decades’ is not the same as 15 years. 
I would try to find them myself, but I simply don’t have that much free time to find those thousands of Queens there. They must be hiding from me. 
Yet, for some reason, I don’t have any trouble finding them in warmer areas than Houston closer to the Gulf, like League City etc. 

Picking random spots on google maps for an area the size of Houston is pretty much meaningless. I’ve done the same thing. When I look at street view for Corpus Christi I hardly see any palms. Yet when I drive there I see thousands of queens and pygmys. Along with plenty of mature foxtails and towering royals. There’s even the occasional coconut. Read my actual posts. I’ve never made any accusation or opinions about the climate in Destin. I don’t know anything about it and I simply don’t care enough to research it. Everything I’ve said has been about Houston. If you’re telling me there aren’t thousands of queens queens here that survived 2018 you’re either calling me a liar or delusional. Neither of which I appreciate. You keep commenting on Houston’s climate but the numbers don’t lie. I’ve posted the annual lows at hobby airport for the last 30 years (1989-2018). If you add them together then divide by 30 you get an average annual low of 28f. I’m sorry if math offends you but that’s just reality. 

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Estlander

But enough of this. I admit, Houston is leaps and bounds warmer than Destin. Hell, even Katy is. The minute you step into it, you get a sense you’ve stepped into some subtropical palmy paradise. 
Never mind the fact that you have no native palm species there perhaps with the exception one of the cold hardiest tiny palms like Sabal minor.  
Nature sure pulled a fast one over your area, didn’t it? Lol. I mean, it gave ice box Destin four much less cold hardy palm species,  and left your toasty warm Katy with just one at best. Sad, just sad.  Not to mention, unfair!:(

Edited by Estlander

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Xenon
4 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Destin is a very new area. There was almost nothing here in the 80’s. As the area develops and gets built out more and more, and more palm choices become available, more get planted.
I don’t know any Queens that died in 2014, but I don’t deny that a couple of weaker one may have. But many new ones have been planted since. 
Destin bottomed out at 20F both in 2010 and 2014. If Queens and Pygmies don’t die in Houston in a 19-18F freeze, then why should they die here at 20F? 

And I very much like to see old and new streetview images for comparison from Houston as a proof that there are decades old Pygmies, Queens and Bismarckias. 

Decades old Queens, Pygmies and Bismarckias are very tall. Nothing you have shown me is larger than Queens here and most certainly not decades old. 

And ‘decades’ is not the same as 15 years. 
I would try to find them myself, but I simply don’t have that much free time to find those thousands of Queens there. They must be hiding from me. 
Yet, for some reason, I don’t have any trouble finding them in warmer areas than Houston closer to the Gulf, like League City etc. 

Hardiness or lack thereof is more nuanced than just a strict "kill temp" of 18F, 19F, 20F, etc. Duration of freeze, conditions before and after the freeze, etc are just as important.  There's no denying that queens and pygmy dates survived 19F in parts of Houston. But keep in mind most of these areas where pygmy dates survived had not seen below 24-25F for the preceding 20 years, so it may just be a once in a blue moon survival kind of thing. These were all very established and healthy palms and even then I won't deny plenty of pygmy dates died. In some cases only individual stems on the same plant clump survived.

You don't know any queens that died in 2014? Yet all of the street views you yourself provided show a kill date in the mid 2010s, which in all likelihood is attributed to the 2014 freeze.  Most of the streetview links I have previously provided are verifiable to the late 2000s, just toggle the timestamp setting on desktop. 

I'll leave you with these streetviews, all verifiable to 2008. I've already posted the pygmy dates. 

big Queen visible from the interstate growing in neglected warehouse conditions:  https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7766027,-95.391599,3a,24y,173.55h,92.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-mwOuAFA73a-vItMYujTGw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Bismarckia and bonus queens: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.6951758,-95.4033593,3a,75y,352.88h,91.68t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slrmxwy9uBtYT9LHZKX-h0w!2e0!5s20181201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Guess you'll just have to trust me but central Houston is warmer than League City and parts of the urban core rival even bayfront areas. As you travel south towards the beach, things only look more tropical for tourist/vibe purposes "oh it's the beach, we gotta have palm trees" (for example this one of the southern freeway interchanges: https://www.google.com/maps/@29.6068997,-95.2062267,3a,75y,326.31h,82.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdwr_MVN6fUO_M4LCxFFntA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192, this stretch is lined with W. robusta and Eucalyptus, further north on I-45 towards downtown is a mix of W. robusta and Livistona decora) and neighborhoods in the central city tend to conform to the ritzy classic southern look despite being a warm microclimate.  

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Estlander
5 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

Picking random spots on google maps for an area the size of Houston is pretty much meaningless. I’ve done the same thing. When I look at street view for Corpus Christi I hardly see any palms. Yet when I drive there I see thousands of queens and pygmys. Along with plenty of mature foxtails and towering royals. There’s even the occasional coconut. Read my actual posts. I’ve never made any accusation or opinions about the climate in Destin. I don’t know anything about it and I simply don’t care enough to research it. Everything I’ve said has been about Houston. If you’re telling me there aren’t thousands of queens queens here that survived 2018 you’re either calling me a liar or delusional. Neither of which I appreciate. You keep commenting on Houston’s climate but the numbers don’t lie. I’ve posted the annual lows at hobby airport for the last 30 years (1989-2018). If you add them together then divide by 30 you get an average annual low of 28f. I’m sorry if math offends you but that’s just reality. 

In a city with similar climate and millions of people, of course you have more Queens. This is not a competition who has more Queens. Lol
Look at the size of Destin and it’s population compared to Houston. If we had thousands of them, they’d overnumber possibly even Sabals. 
And if you’re such a perfect climate for Queens, them why are they so hard to find compared to a similarly sized and populated Orlando?

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Jeff985
11 minutes ago, Estlander said:

But enough of this. I admit, Houston is leaps and bounds warmer than Destin. Hell, even Katy is. The minute you step into it, you get a sense you’ve stepped into some subtropical palmy paradise. 
Never mind the fact that you have no native palm species there perhaps with the exception one of the cold hardiest tiny palms like Sabal minor.  
Nature sure pulled a fast one over your area, didn’t it? Lol. I mean, it gave ice box Destin four much less cold hardy palm species,  and left your toasty warm Katy with just one at best. Sad, just sad.  Not to mention, unfair!:(

I’m completely missing your point about natives. California only has one native ( W. Filifera). Are you saying Destin has a more suitable climate for palms than San Diego? As far as which is warmer between Houston and Destin goes. It’s simple. We’ve shown the lows for the last 30 years in Houston. Not numbers we made up. Numbers from NOAA. Average low is 28f. Your turn. If yours is higher congratulations. If it’s not then it’s settled. If you’re not going to even look at the facts then why make baseless assertions. 

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Estlander
1 minute ago, Xenon said:

Hardiness or lack thereof is more nuanced than just a strict "kill temp" of 18F, 19F, 20F, etc. Duration of freeze, conditions before and after the freeze, etc are just as important.  There's no denying that queens and pygmy dates survived 19F in parts of Houston. But keep in mind most of these areas where pygmy dates survived had not seen below 24-25F for the preceding 20 years, so it may just be a once in a blue moon survival kind of thing. These were all very established and healthy palms and even then I won't deny plenty of pygmy dates died. In some cases only individual stems on the same plan

You don't know any queens that died in 2014? Yet all of the street views you yourself provided show a kill date in the mid 2010s, which in all likelihood is attributed to the 2014 freeze.  

What kill date? There are several around where I am that have been there since 2006 or before. The first Queen in my picture series is on the streetview images from 2007. 
Hell, there is even a pre 2010 Queen in central Fort Walton Beach 8B. It does have some trunk damage, but otherwise looks beautiful. 
But, in the last 6 years many many new Queens have been planted everywhere. 
Besides, so WHAT if a couple of Queens die every now and then? Weaker ones need to be weeded out. 
How you forgotten the January 2018 freeze already, which killed many in your are and none here? Geeshhhh...

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