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Wet feet in zone 9A (Sabal Casiarum and Washingtonia Filabusta)


ceeskiroy

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Hello,

My passion is to create a palm tree landscape but unfortunately I have to strikes. Im in zone 9a, which used to be zone 8B, and Im low on the water table. Drainage can be iffy in certain spots of my yard because its higher in silt, but it can be sandier in other areas. The biggest issue is that Im low on the water table.  So what I did was dug a 18" hole and waited for the water to fill the hole. Then I kept adding sand back until it was no longer wet. I was left with about a foot depth before the hole held water. So my questions are:

 

1. Is this still considered wet feet being that I should have 1 foot of soil for the roots to not sit in water?

 

2. Can Sabal Casiarum or Washingtonia Filibusta grow in wet feet?

 

3. I know about Sabal Minor, Sabal Palmetto and mixed info on Windmill and Chinese fan palms. Are there any more for wet feet in zone 8-9A?

 

Thanks,

Colin

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54 minutes ago, ceeskiroy said:

Are there any more for wet feet in zone 8-9A?

Hi Colin, welcome to PalmTalk!

I'm also in a cool zone 9a but I don't have the water table issue that you have.  The first palms that come to mind are Serenoa repens (saw palmetto) and Acoelorraphe wrightii (paurotis palm) which I'm sure you're familiar with being Florida natives.  Arenga engleri likes moist soil but I don't think they tolerate constantly wet feet.  Not sure about Sabal casiarum either since it tolerates dry conditions once established but I'd say Washingtonia would not be happy in those conditions.  Hope this helps some - I'm sure others will offer more specific experience.

Jon

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Jon Sunder

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Wow. I had no idea there were this many species. Awesome thanks. When you say seasonally soggy soils, is that going to be a different growing conditions than water constantly 1 foot below the surface due being low lying marsh lands surrounded by bay water.

 

Keep in mind it 1 foot below surface about halfway up my yard. I only have about 7 inches before I hit water  on my back yard back end fence line. Id really love to put something here other than just a Sabal Palmetto, but I figure its not possible.  Would the Trachycarpus be okay on my back fence line.?

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Because I have adobe clay soil that is "seasonally soggy," I built up a 3+ ft-high berm on part of my property and planted a dozen palms on it. That helps the drainage issue during our wet NorCal winters. Perhaps this might be an option for you? While my palms are still small, this planting looks great. I'll worry about overcrowding in another ten years! ;)

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@ceeskiroy Welcome to the forums!  One thing you can do to increase the amount of palms you can grow is elevated plantings.  Even a small difference in elevation could help a situation like yours.  For example, if you used retaining wall blocks and then mounded up the soil toward the middle of a planting bed, you could get yourself some better drainage.

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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13 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@ceeskiroy Welcome to the forums!  One thing you can do to increase the amount of palms you can grow is elevated plantings.  Even a small difference in elevation could help a situation like yours.  For example, if you used retaining wall blocks and then mounded up the soil toward the middle of a planting bed, you could get yourself some better drainage.

Well I want it along a wood fence so I couldnt have the dirt sitting on the wood fence. I could spend more money and do a concrete filled cinder block backing up against the fence ( only because Im in a hurricane zone and my fence has blown over 2 times and I would want my whole wall and bed to be destroyed if fence blows over.). Would 1foot high be enough?

 

How deep is a palms root system? Would build up 1ft retaining wall be enough?

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I have the same issue.  I did a combination of digging drainage and planting on mounds.  Even 12” to 18” made a big difference in my case.  

Sabal minor and S palmetto can handle wet ground seasonally, and Butia odorata are fairly tolerant too.  Windmills are more susceptible.  I have no idea with regards to the other species you mentioned.

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3 minutes ago, Turtlesteve said:

Windmills are more susceptible.

Not to disagree, but my experience is the exact opposite.  Soaking muck ground and the Trachycarpus love it, they grow at 2x the rate of the ones I have in more free draining sandy soil.  Lots of mature windmills around here that live in very wet conditions with seasonal flooding.

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Thank You guys. Does anyone have any experience with Casiarum sabal in wet feet? I think they look nicer than the Sabal Palmetto native to my area.

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8 hours ago, ceeskiroy said:

Well I want it along a wood fence so I couldnt have the dirt sitting on the wood fence. I could spend more money and do a concrete filled cinder block backing up against the fence ( only because Im in a hurricane zone and my fence has blown over 2 times and I would want my whole wall and bed to be destroyed if fence blows over.). Would 1foot high be enough?

 

How deep is a palms root system? Would build up 1ft retaining wall be enough?

You could do something like that.  Having that extra foot will allow to grow some things that don't like sitting in (almost) standing water.  There are some desert species, like date palms, that pick up speed in their growth rate when they hit ground water.  This extra foot might be enough clearance for them to get by.  Palm root systems are varied.  Some grow out more than they grow down, others the opposite.  It depends on which palms you would like to plant.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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5 hours ago, Chester B said:

Not to disagree, but my experience is the exact opposite.  Soaking muck ground and the Trachycarpus love it, they grow at 2x the rate of the ones I have in more free draining sandy soil.  Lots of mature windmills around here that live in very wet conditions with seasonal flooding.

That's certainly interesting.  The only times I have seen mature ones die here it was those planted in poor drainage locations, and after the ground was completely saturated for weeks on end.  Maybe some other complicating factor is at play?  I otherwise agree with your comment on soil, they definitely dislike sand and prefer dense soil or clay.

Steve

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1 hour ago, Turtlesteve said:

That's certainly interesting.  The only times I have seen mature ones die here it was those planted in poor drainage locations, and after the ground was completely saturated for weeks on end.  Maybe some other complicating factor is at play?  I otherwise agree with your comment on soil, they definitely dislike sand and prefer dense soil or clay.

Steve

It must be the heat and humidity combo.  When its hot here, it's dry, and when it's wet its mild to cold.

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2 hours ago, Chester B said:

It must be the heat and humidity combo.  When its hot here, it's dry, and when it's wet its mild to cold.

There prolly is something to that. I have 3 trachys planted out in my front yard within 5 to 7 feet of each other. The middle one speared pulled and the only difference of the 3 is the middle one gets less sun (wet longer). Maybe trachys just hate our clay and wet cold winters. 

T J 

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14 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

There prolly is something to that. I have 3 trachys planted out in my front yard within 5 to 7 feet of each other. The middle one speared pulled and the only difference of the 3 is the middle one gets less sun (wet longer). Maybe trachys just hate our clay and wet cold winters. 

The ones I have in clay in my backyard love it.  Whenever I dig around them it's wet slop and has a bit of a sulphur smell, but I do see worms in there.  7" of rain in January so far and they're looking great, never had had a Trachy spear pull yet.  Summer is when they suffer around here if you don't make sure they're getting enough water.

 

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12 minutes ago, Chester B said:

The ones I have in clay in my backyard love it.  Whenever I dig around them it's wet slop and has a bit of a sulphur smell, but I do see worms in there.  7" of rain in January so far and they're looking great, never had had a Trachy spear pull yet.  Summer is when they suffer around here if you don't make sure they're getting enough water.

 

Yeah I'm not sure what it is honestly, just my experience. Palms seem to do much better when mound planted around here 

T J 

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4 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Yeah I'm not sure what it is honestly, just my experience. Palms seem to do much better when mound planted around here 

Needles and Sabal minor I plant in wet areas too without worry.  Everything else gets mound planted which includes S. causiarum and W filibusta.

Edited by Chester B
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1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Needles and Sabal minor I plant in wet areas too without worry.  Everything else gets mound planted which includes S. causiarum and W filibusta.

I had 2 mule palms that i didnt mound plant. One was lost, the other i pulled , I and put in a pot to be nursed back to life. 

T J 

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This may be stupid but I picture a palm in a mount to be more easily ripped out of the ground during high winds. And hurricane experience on here for palms on mounds.?

 

 

Random question. Ive seen what appears to be brown stain applied to the trunk of sabal palm that I like what it looks like compared to the moldy grey trunks in my area. What exactly is that they are painting on and how often does it need to be applied?

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Well it lightly rain yesturday and the holes I dig are all still filled with water about 6-8 inches from the surface. This has been atleast 18 hours so it looks like my soil condition are worse than I thought. I assume this is considered water logged soil after all. I was surprised that even the hole I dug half way up my yard was still almost full with water.  It appears Im alot more limited with palm tree selection than what I originally thought.

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10 hours ago, ceeskiroy said:

This may be stupid but I picture a palm in a mount to be more easily ripped out of the ground during high winds. And hurricane experience on here for palms on mounds.?

Random question. Ive seen what appears to be brown stain applied to the trunk of sabal palm that I like what it looks like compared to the moldy grey trunks in my area. What exactly is that they are painting on and how often does it need to be applied?

Possible that they just "shaved" the leaf bases off.

 

7 hours ago, ceeskiroy said:

Well it lightly rain yesturday and the holes I dig are all still filled with water about 6-8 inches from the surface. This has been atleast 18 hours so it looks like my soil condition are worse than I thought. I assume this is considered water logged soil after all. I was surprised that even the hole I dug half way up my yard was still almost full with water.  It appears Im alot more limited with palm tree selection than what I originally thought.

You may have to put French drains under your palms! ;)

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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My Washingtonia filiferia didn’t like being potted plants. I picked a good spot with plenty of room on the south side of my house that’s slightly down hill. It stays pretty wet during rainy periods, but they are doing better in ground. I’m in NW Louisiana and I protect mine when temps get lower than upper 20s. 

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  • 1 year later...

Hello Guys. It been a while. I have tried all I can. At this point Im going to give the mound a try. For something like a Sylvester or Mule palm how wide should the mound bee? And what type of soil would be best?

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There is some good info in this attached U of F paper on growing palms in North Florida:

 

EP35900 (Palms for North Florida).pdf

Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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If palms dont work, you can always put Musa basjoo back there, they probably wouldnt have a problem with wet feet, and they add a nice tropical touch!

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Palms - 4 S. romanzoffiana, 1 W. bifurcata, 2 W. robusta, 1 R. rivularis, 1 B. odorata, 1 B. nobilis, 2 S. palmetto, 1 A. merillii, 1 P. canariensis, 1 BxJ, 1 BxJxBxS, 1 BxS, 3 P. roebelenii, 1 H. lagenicaulis, 1 H. verschaffeltii, 9 T. fortunei, 1 C. humilis, 2 C. macrocarpa, 1 L. chinensis, 1 R. excelsa

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On 1/28/2020 at 9:23 AM, Chester B said:

Not to disagree, but my experience is the exact opposite.  Soaking muck ground and the Trachycarpus love it, they grow at 2x the rate of the ones I have in more free draining sandy soil.  Lots of mature windmills around here that live in very wet conditions with seasonal flooding.

Same.  They seem to love wet clay.

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On 1/28/2020 at 7:11 PM, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Maybe trachys just hate our clay and wet cold winters. 

We have more clay and colder wetter winters in the PNW and they thrive here.  I think because it's very close to their natural environment in China.

Edited by Fallen Munk
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2 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

We have more clay and colder wetter winters in the PNW and they thrive here.  I think because it's very close to their natural environment in China.

Your right about that , I may have made that statement cause I had lost 1 Trachy to what I thought was a cold wet winter. My other 2 in the same area are doing great 

T J 

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