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How close is too close?


James B

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So as I am running out of space to plant palms that need cover from the intense inland sun here in Rancho Cucamonga I have options under canopy of taller Archontophoenix but I want to make sure I don’t wind up with a jungle that looks like a mess vs a jungle that is athletically pleasing. I have a 5 gal Chambeyronia Macrocarpa, will plan on getting another couple flamethrowers(including hookeri) or a 15 of either this spring and possibly a dypsis pembana which I understand need some sun cover here. Will this work as most of the remaining spots in my yard will get extreme sun come May and I don’t want to slow down an already slow growing palm while it acclimates to the sun I get here.

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I’ve read that chambeyronia macrocarpa will adapt to full sun, but everyone I’ve talked to that’s tried it says otherwise. Not that it’ll kill them. They just don’t look as good.  I just bought one last week. I’ll be planting it in the shade of a large oak. 

Edited by Jeff985
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14 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

I’ve read that chambeyronia macrocarpa will adapt to full sun, but everyone I’ve talked to that’s tried it says otherwise. Not that it’ll kill them. They just don’t look as good.  I just bought one last week. I’ll be planting it in the shade of a large oak. 

Agreed. Most members here have said that as well. There might be a spot or two that gets full sun morning and mid day then gets a bit of a break from sun around 2ish in summer but I want to first plant them where I know they will do well before I decide to get creative and experiment.

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James, our places out here in the I.E. are living experiments.  You have to come by soon and see what I have done (for better or worse).  Hopefully we can all learn from each other. 

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1 minute ago, Sr. Califas said:

James, our places out here in the I.E. are living experiments.  You have to come by soon and see what I have done (for better or worse).  Hopefully we can all learn from each other. 

I can vouch for Gabriel.  He has mad growing skills!

 

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Huntington Beach, CA

USDA Zone 10a/10b

Sunset Zone 24

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I would plant the Flamethrower in the shade that far inland. They will burn for sure during the summer if in full sun. Archontophoenix will grow much faster so it will open up. I don't have much space myself and probably planted stuff too close. The goal is to get nice canopy then try some more tender palms. For example I planted a Kentiopsis under a queen to protect. The queen is much faster so now the Kentiopsis is nice and visible. 

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Definitely shade for the Flamethrower!

As far as how close is too close, there's no right answer and really depends on what you like. If you're concerned about overcrowding, the most important factor to consider is growth speed. Competing crowns look overcrowded but staggered heights, even for palms a few feet apart, can look very pleasing in my opinion.

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yeah flamethrowers can adapt to sun, but they don't look nearly as good.  They like mostly shade with some sun.  I have a row of tall trees to the south of mine and open sky to the north.  In summer when it gets  5hrs direct mid day sun, the leaves open up and turn quickly from the rose to yellow in two days.  This past christmas with zero direct sun, the rose colored leaf lasted 7 days.  

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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2 hours ago, Sr. Califas said:

James, our places out here in the I.E. are living experiments.  You have to come by soon and see what I have done (for better or worse).  Hopefully we can all learn from each other. 

I have been meaning to get over to see you for sometime! Between work and 2 kids I have my hands full but it is something I look forward to!

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I see lawn there. If worried about overcrowding just start removing lawn. You just need to mow the stuff all the time. Palms are such low maintenance.

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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I actually like having a bunch of palms of staggering heights planted fairly close together. It looks more natural. 

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21 hours ago, Matt in OC said:

Definitely shade for the Flamethrower!

As far as how close is too close, there's no right answer and really depends on what you like. If you're concerned about overcrowding, the most important factor to consider is growth speed. Competing crowns look overcrowded but staggered heights, even for palms a few feet apart, can look very pleasing in my opinion.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. 

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In my Los Altos garden, my C. hookerii has grown above the protective wall to its east and is now in full sun almost all day and that hasn't seemed to negatively impact it at all. The air is less dry here than in inland Southern CA though but we do get a lot of 90° weather here and a few 100°+ days as well. 

 

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Edited by Jim in Los Altos
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Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

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I’m a big fan of cramming them in now! Stagger palms with quick growth with slower growers or shade/protection lovers underneath. My royals have a spindle and a P. Sargentii nearby. My queens have a Pygmy date and a Baccariophoenix. Mules have a cocothrinax and Brahea. Etc. little pockets placed around the yard based on exposure and speed.  Yard has tons of wide open space to walk/play. 

In the end, experiment! It’s your canvas! You can always be adjusting or recreating until you find your preference. 

 

Your yard looks great!

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I’ve always been a big fan of packing them in tight. Archontophoenix (56 of them) and Syagrus (8) comprise most of the canopy. The close plantings help humidify an otherwise somewhat dry summer air. They also help hold in heat during the winter and keep understory plants out of the potentially burning summer sun. As long as there is relief from the denseness in several places like lawn, patios, etc. it won’t look like an unpenetrable jungle.  

 

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Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

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Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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Looks awesome Jim! What is the palm in the pic after the red chambeyronia leaf with the green ringed trunk and the swollen base? Clinostigma? Hedyscepe?

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4 minutes ago, James B said:

Looks awesome Jim! What is the palm in the pic after the red chambeyronia leaf with the green ringed trunk and the swollen base? Clinostigma? Hedyscepe?

That’s one of the many Howea forsteriana in the garden. With time, they become good canopy as well. 

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Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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Jim your yard is absolutely beautiful. Hope I get a chance to take the short drive over and see it someday. 

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5 minutes ago, enigma99 said:

Jim your yard is absolutely beautiful. Hope I get a chance to take the short drive over and see it someday. 

Love to have you over to the garden Derrick. I would guess it’s about an hour and a half drive. 

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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24 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

That’s one of the many Howea forsteriana in the garden. With time, they become good canopy as well. 

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Ah ok beautiful palm! I never get to see them that size around here. I lost a triple planted that got destroyed in January of 2019 where it saw 29 degrees with 50 mph winds that beat it up to bad to recover.

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5 hours ago, James B said:

Ah ok beautiful palm! I never get to see them that size around here. I lost a triple planted that got destroyed in January of 2019 where it saw 29 degrees with 50 mph winds that beat it up to bad to recover.

Haven’t had anything under 33° F here since 2007 when it dropped to 26.5° one night and a day or two right at freezing right after the 26.5° and none of my Howea were killed though they suffered some brown leaf tipping. I’m surprised you lost yours at 29°. Must have been the accompanying winds. 

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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On 1/10/2020 at 6:53 PM, Tyrone said:

I see lawn there. If worried about overcrowding just start removing lawn. You just need to mow the stuff all the time. Palms are such low maintenance.

Exactly!!!  :D  I'm planting out a 30' x 15' section of grass that was always a pain to mow.  Once I get the major waves of weeds out of the newly mulched area, the palms are very low maintenance!

Regarding the OP, I had a Chamby in a part-sun area that was getting sun through about 11AM, oak canopy shade 11AM-3PM and then full sun 3PM-7PM.  It did okay there, and didn't even burn when the oak directly overhead suddenly died.  At that point it was only getting shade from about 1-3PM, but it had probably adapted.  The leaves were a lighter green and the new leaf color didn't last as long, but it was okay.  I transplanted it to under a pair of Queens in the backyard, since I didn't want the tree guys to drop limbs on it by accident.  

I'd think that spot is okay for a Chamby, just keep in mind they stretch out in lots of shade and get huge.

The Pembana I have is in nearly full sun in the summer, and it's growing like a weed.  It went from 3' overall to over 8' last year.  It probably gets a bit of filtered sun around 12-1PM, but otherwise full blazing sun.  As with the Chamby its leaves are a lighter green than if it were in shade, but zero burn.

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9 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Haven’t had anything under 33° F here since 2007 when it dropped to 26.5° one night and a day or two right at freezing right after the 26.5° and none of my Howea were killed though they suffered some brown leaf tipping. I’m surprised you lost yours at 29°. Must have been the accompanying winds. 

I'm surprised too. I'm growing mine in 9B in full shade. In the last few years it's probably hit 28 a time or two, limited damage

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2 hours ago, enigma99 said:

I'm surprised too. I'm growing mine in 9B in full shade. In the last few years it's probably hit 28 a time or two, limited damage

The winter Santa Ana’s I have had at my place the past two January’s have been brutal. 50 plus with gusts well over 60 mph. It had multiple leaves snapped in half at the base and just could not regrow fast enough so I pulled it. I filled that same spot with an 11 ft tall Alexandrae back in October and two weeks ago the winds snapped a 6 foot leave off at the base like it was nothing.y thinking was put a larger palm to handle the wind tunnel up against the back of my house better but even a decent sized palm took some real damage. It’s fine and will pull through but all of my palms leaves are looking pretty ratty right now unless they are the smaller palms under the canopy of the bigger ones taking the brunt of the wind.

Edited by James B
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