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Hybrids!


ruskinPalms

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Hi all!

I’m curious what hybridizes with what. I’ve heard of foxy ladies, mules etc. I’ve seen plenty of wild Phoenix hybrids growing in the area. What are common hybrids that are encountered in your area or garden? Please specify which palms are the “mom” and “dad”. Such as what does it take to make a foxy lady? Do foxtails and Adonidia hybridize together? Does Adonidia even hybridize with anything at all? I see plenty of foxtails and Adonidia flowering and fruiting together in this area so I’m curious if some of those seeds could be hybrids. Please post pictures and information regarding hybrids you have in your garden. 

Thank you!

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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Adonidia can hybridize with veitchia 

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"it's not dead it's sleeping"

Santee ca, zone10a/9b

18 miles from the ocean

avg. winter 68/40.avg summer 88/64.records 113/25

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I have a few mules but one I have is what I call a Jack ass palm --- its a (JubeaxButia) x Syagrus ----   I have a Butia x Syagrus coronata -- Robena palm , and a Butia x Syagrus piccophylla --- I have some small Butia x S. schizophylla --but am waiting fer character leaves to develop. 

 

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Around my area the typical Mule Palm and interspecific hybrids with Phoenix.  While we don't have many Washingtonia filifera, it is likely some of our Washingtonia robusta are actually filibusta hybrids.  It's unlikely any of my Jubaea chilensis will survive to adulthood, so I may consider an intergeneric hybrid with Butia at some point.

This article by @Geoff is a good resource: https://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3012

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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13 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

Thanks for replies. 
So would I look for foxy lady seeds on a veitchia or on a foxtail?

Usually, the seed-bearer comes first in hybrid name: http://www.palmpedia.net/palmsforcal/Wodyetia_x_Veitchia

Wodyetia = Foxtail.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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7 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

Thanks for replies. 
So would I look for foxy lady seeds on a veitchia or on a foxtail?

 Thinking X-ed seed could be produced by either, esp. if in close prox. ( like they are up at Kopsick, or in  @Butch apparent situation w/ his ) and would be worth looking through. That said, Veitchia seed i'd collect there always looked pure to my eyes, or at least seem consistent with how seed of the species in the collection should look... same with any Foxtail seed i'd collect ( which honestly, wasn't much.. Always a ton of it on the ground for collecting though.. Buckets full if someone were so inclined )

Remember, there is a X Foxy lady there that does produce seed, though whether or not any seed you might find on the ground might be fertile, is a 50/50 gamble.. Found only one "good" seed after 5 different trips up there when the Foxy was seeding..  Believe @Zeeth has had luck w/ seed he'd been able to collect before. It sits closer to the Veitchias so i'd imagine they would be the most likely pollen donor.. or vise versa ( Bees transferring pollen from the X Foxy Lady to which ever Veitchia nearby )

Not sure where it is.. and not about to go digging around for it, lol..  but recall a thread that discussed the differences in seed ( size / shape ) between Veitchia,  Wodyetia, and X Foxy Lady.  Pretty helpful.

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I think that some hybrids are natural and some must be hand pollinated, depending on the cross.  I am thinking foxy ladies are hand pollinated, they aren't easy to find.  I have a natural BxJ and a hand pollinated (BxJ)xJ.  Phoenix, readily hybridize when in proximity in florida, and I have found phoenix hybrids often have nasty surprises.  I like my rupicolas from MB palms, they look like the real thing, slow growing, soft thorns and red fruits.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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16 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 Thinking X-ed seed could be produced by either, esp. if in close prox. ( like they are up at Kopsick, or in  @Butch apparent situation w/ his ) and would be worth looking through. That said, Veitchia seed i'd collect there always looked pure to my eyes, or at least seem consistent with how seed of the species in the collection should look... same with any Foxtail seed i'd collect ( which honestly, wasn't much.. Always a ton of it on the ground for collecting though.. Buckets full if someone were so inclined )

Remember, there is a X Foxy lady there that does produce seed, though whether or not any seed you might find on the ground might be fertile, is a 50/50 gamble.. Found only one "good" seed after 5 different trips up there when the Foxy was seeding..  Believe @Zeeth has had luck w/ seed he'd been able to collect before. It sits closer to the Veitchias so i'd imagine they would be the most likely pollen donor.. or vise versa ( Bees transferring pollen from the X Foxy Lady to which ever Veitchia nearby )

Not sure where it is.. and not about to go digging around for it, lol..  but recall a thread that discussed the differences in seed ( size / shape ) between Veitchia,  Wodyetia, and X Foxy Lady.  Pretty helpful.

I'm pretty sure you are right about being able to cross them either way.  I've seen a few articles with Veitchia coming first.

@Zeeth Did report sprouting one here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/53645-foxy-lady-seeds/

... and a plant from seed here:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/48051-christmas-tour-of-my-palmetto-garden/&tab=comments#comment-737897

Here is a thread with a good photo comparison between the seeds of a Foxtail and a Foxy Lady: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/49089-foxy-lady-seeds/

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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Teddy Bear Triangle hyrbid, Dypsis decaryi x leptocheilos. A very sought after palm in my books, Mike Evans has a nice specimen in his yard. I am still on the lookout for one. Not sure which one is the seed-bearer.

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Mine was a volunteer, that popped up from a pile of maybe, a hundred  foxtail seeds... I have no idea if the seed looked any different from the other foxtail seeds... I wish there was a way to tell the difference in the seed stage... I have no means of potting out hundreds and hundreds of seeds, just in getting a chance at a foxylady... My veitchia is about 85' away from my foxttail that produced the seed... I have two foxtails closer to the veitchia (one within 10')... So there could be more seeds that produce foxyladys, but without knowing what to look for in the seed stage, they are just going to waste... The only reason I got this one, is that it rocketed a head of the other volenteers in size, and looked a little different... Purely luck on my part...

Butch

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4 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

I'm pretty sure you are right about being able to cross them either way.  I've seen a few articles with Veitchia coming first.

When hand / manually crossed, i'd think it just depends on which pollen is used.. Perhaps one is more receptive to pollen than the other?, Male/female flowers open at different times on each genus.. Maybe why Wodyetia is used more as the seed donor ( Mother plant ) in the cross?? Definitely no expert in this arena, lol but don't think the basics are all that different from crossing other stuff.

Since both Veitchia, Wodyetia.. ( and apparently Foxy ladies as well )  produce both male / female flowers, specimens allowed to cross naturally would at least have equal opportunity to cross/ be crossed. Was always interesting that the larger F. L. at Kopsick produced less seed than either the nearby Veitchia, or the Foxtails even though there were bees everywhere when it and the others were flowering..

Kopsick  FoxyLady, 2014:
SAM_3099.thumb.JPG.6fb7777aeab1767fb8c824e13ae6fe46.JPG

Closer-up of the flower/fruiting inflos, 2014:  Some fruit developing, but not near as "fertile" as nearby Veitchias.
SAM_3100.JPG.cd842fc3b1444e713122c9e1812a650e.JPG

49 minutes ago, Butch said:

Mine was a volunteer, that popped up from a pile of maybe, a hundred  foxtail seeds... I have no idea if the seed looked any different from the other foxtail seeds... I wish there was a way to tell the difference in the seed stage... I have no means of potting out hundreds and hundreds of seeds, just in getting a chance at a foxylady... My veitchia is about 85' away from my foxttail that produced the seed... I have two foxtails closer to the veitchia (one within 10')... So there could be more seeds that produce foxyladys, but without knowing what to look for in the seed stage, they are just going to waste... The only reason I got this one, is that it rocketed a head of the other volenteers in size, and looked a little different... Purely luck on my part...

Butch

Yea, lol  don't think i'd pot all produced seed either.. maybe lay out a random 1/2-full bucket full and toss some mulch over it, then pick out any standouts/ potential crosses i notice that germinate.. compost the others. That said,

From re-reading the last of the threads @kinzyjr dug up ( appreciate that btw ) and what i remember from experience, Foxy Lady seed will look distinctly different than either Wodyetia or Veitchia well before ripening.. Not quite as lens / Almond shaped as Veitchia.. nor as rounded/ Golf-ball shaped as Wodyetia.. Very apparent on the Kopsick Foxy Lady.. Perhaps a bit harder to distinguish on the others.. Admit i really never sorted through abundant Foxtail seed, or payed especially careful attention to Veitchia seed i'd collect there. Perhaps as seed is shed from your specimens, pick out those seeds that look somewhat in between the two parents to germinate.  Would be on the lookout for such myself..

Any possible crosses in all this Foxtail seed, lol.
SAM_2992.JPG.24744247d3c1e7affc6ab8000826bb52.JPG

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You can probably find some Foxy Ladies around gardens with Foxtails and Vetchias.   They are hard to tell when young, but when they are variegated, they stand out more.   Here are a few I just noticed in the garden buried in the pile of Foxtail seed.  Have dug up a number of them in the past.   When a Foxtail crosses with Christmas palm, the late and great John DeMontt (Redland Nursery) would call them Christmas Tails.  That is a name that can stick.

 

DSCN5127.thumb.JPG.bb0e9d6577e4e066a17947893a3891c2.JPG

 

Here is an F2 Foxylady from seed of mine in the garden.  I donated that large FL at Kopsick many years ago when in 7 gal container.  That one is same batch as 6 others I have in garden, just about all are variegated.  I have grown a number of the variegated FL seed (F2), but only 1 came out extremely variegated, and slowly died because of lack of photosynthesis.   Last pic are some small F2s in containers.  I have noticed that some take on more traits of Foxtail and some look like Vetchia.

DSCN5128.thumb.JPG.c8832a1605dc99a067a6966048477e2a.JPG

DSCN5129.thumb.JPG.f225b70d0d71fe83b0fcacf0bb46668b.JPG

DSCN5130.thumb.JPG.649b239e720771fd8c8dfa3730255883.JPG

DSCN5131.thumb.JPG.798804eef8bdd7ca8cddbd1749301f2e.JPG

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@Mike Evans I would definitely be Interested in foxy lady seeds especially if they turn out to be more cold hardy and faster growing then both parents. I wonder why they haven't become more common yet ? 

T J 

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2 hours ago, Mike Evans said:

You can probably find some Foxy Ladies around gardens with Foxtails and Vetchias.   They are hard to tell when young, but when they are variegated, they stand out more.   Here are a few I just noticed in the garden buried in the pile of Foxtail seed.  Have dug up a number of them in the past.   When a Foxtail crosses with Christmas palm, the late and great John DeMontt (Redland Nursery) would call them Christmas Tails.  That is a name that can stick.

 

DSCN5127.thumb.JPG.bb0e9d6577e4e066a17947893a3891c2.JPG

 

Here is an F2 Foxylady from seed of mine in the garden.  I donated that large FL at Kopsick many years ago when in 7 gal container.  That one is same batch as 6 others I have in garden, just about all are variegated.  I have grown a number of the variegated FL seed (F2), but only 1 came out extremely variegated, and slowly died because of lack of photosynthesis.   Last pic are some small F2s in containers.  I have noticed that some take on more traits of Foxtail and some look like Vetchia.

DSCN5128.thumb.JPG.c8832a1605dc99a067a6966048477e2a.JPG

DSCN5129.thumb.JPG.f225b70d0d71fe83b0fcacf0bb46668b.JPG

DSCN5130.thumb.JPG.649b239e720771fd8c8dfa3730255883.JPG

DSCN5131.thumb.JPG.798804eef8bdd7ca8cddbd1749301f2e.JPG

There have to be some Christmas Tails in the seeds set by the trees in my hood. Too bad I’ll never know what they look like. Most people hack off the fruit from their palms here. There are a few mature V. arecina scattered about that are fruiting too, but they are far, far less common than foxtails and Adonidia. The Adonidia in my neighborhood set mass quantities of fruit this year but most has made it to the dump... There are some big foxtails too that fruit prolifically but best I can tell by eyeballing them while going by, the fruits are pretty standard. As a side note, foxtails seem to flower and fruit year round; the Adonidia definitely seem to align with Christmas haha. There aren’t enough Veitchia in my neighborhood to know their flowering/fruiting pattern. I do have two seedling Veitchia in the ground that aren’t even pinnate yet so many years remain before they will flower, if they live. So, my best bet is finding a Christmas Tail seed. Any pictures if what that hybrid looks like? 

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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22 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

When hand / manually crossed, i'd think it just depends on which pollen is used.. Perhaps one is more receptive to pollen than the other?, Male/female flowers open at different times on each genus.. Maybe why Wodyetia is used more as the seed donor ( Mother plant ) in the cross?? Definitely no expert in this arena, lol but don't think the basics are all that different from crossing other stuff.

Since both Veitchia, Wodyetia.. ( and apparently Foxy ladies as well )  produce both male / female flowers, specimens allowed to cross naturally would at least have equal opportunity to cross/ be crossed. Was always interesting that the larger F. L. at Kopsick produced less seed than either the nearby Veitchia, or the Foxtails even though there were bees everywhere when it and the others were flowering..

Kopsick  FoxyLady, 2014:
SAM_3099.thumb.JPG.6fb7777aeab1767fb8c824e13ae6fe46.JPG

Closer-up of the flower/fruiting inflos, 2014:  Some fruit developing, but not near as "fertile" as nearby Veitchias.
SAM_3100.JPG.cd842fc3b1444e713122c9e1812a650e.JPG

Yea, lol  don't think i'd pot all produced seed either.. maybe lay out a random 1/2-full bucket full and toss some mulch over it, then pick out any standouts/ potential crosses i notice that germinate.. compost the others. That said,

From re-reading the last of the threads @kinzyjr dug up ( appreciate that btw ) and what i remember from experience, Foxy Lady seed will look distinctly different than either Wodyetia or Veitchia well before ripening.. Not quite as lens / Almond shaped as Veitchia.. nor as rounded/ Golf-ball shaped as Wodyetia.. Very apparent on the Kopsick Foxy Lady.. Perhaps a bit harder to distinguish on the others.. Admit i really never sorted through abundant Foxtail seed, or payed especially careful attention to Veitchia seed i'd collect there. Perhaps as seed is shed from your specimens, pick out those seeds that look somewhat in between the two parents to germinate.  Would be on the lookout for such myself..

Any possible crosses in all this Foxtail seed, lol.
SAM_2992.JPG.24744247d3c1e7affc6ab8000826bb52.JPG

 

This was what mine looked like coming out of the pile of foxtail seeds/seedlings... Definitely something different...

4id95NP.jpg

Butch

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This subject fascinates me...  I would like to try crossing the foxtail and veitchia purposely... Not just leave it up to a couple of bees to do the work... My problem is that I have no easy access to the flowers that are 20' ft up... Ladders are no good in my planters, and after all I am 71 yrs old... And I mean OLD:crying:... I was thinking of a pole, with a brush, or something else attached to collect some pollen, then try dusting the female flowers? Maybe cut off the male flowers and lay them on the female flowers on the other tree... But I don't know the difference between the female and male, or when they are ripe for this process... I do watch the bees, and guess they know when the flowers are ready?  Any ideas?...

Butch

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25 minutes ago, Butch said:

This subject fascinates me...  I would like to try crossing the foxtail and veitchia purposely... Not just leave it up to a couple of bees to do the work... My problem is that I have no easy access to the flowers that are 20' ft up... Ladders are no good in my planters, and after all I am 71 yrs old... And I mean OLD:crying:... I was thinking of a pole, with a brush, or something else attached to collect some pollen, then try dusting the female flowers? Maybe cut off the male flowers and lay them on the female flowers on the other tree... But I don't know the difference between the female and male, or when they are ripe for this process... I do watch the bees, and guess they know when the flowers are ready?  Any ideas?...

Butch

Find a college kid that needs gas/beer money? :)

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Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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5 minutes ago, Butch said:

This subject fascinates me...  I would like to try crossing the foxtail and veitchia purposely... Not just leave it up to a couple of bees to do the work... My problem is that I have no easy access to the flowers that are 20' ft up... Ladders are no good in my planters, and after all I am 71 yrs old... And I mean OLD:crying:... I was thinking of a pole, with a brush, or something else attached to collect some pollen, then try dusting the female flowers? Maybe cut off the male flowers and lay them on the female flowers on the other tree... But I don't know the difference between the female and male, or when they are ripe for this process... I do watch the bees, and guess they know when the flowers are ready?  Any ideas?...

Butch

Tough to say.. Definitely could cut off male flowered inflos to collect pollen.. imagine you'd have to get up to where the inflos are located to pollinate well though. Plus, if one or both genus produces both male/female flowers on the same inflo, you'd have to emasculate ( rid the inflo of male flowers ) on the mother plant to avoid any possible self pollination, up the chances of successful cross pollination. 

From what i remember.. (  Members w/ more experience in this arena, feel free to make any corrections.. add to anything i might have missed ) Differences between the male/female flowers on both Wodyetia and Veitchia should be pretty straight forward. Pretty sure both genus produce separate male/ female flowers, say on the same stalk / tree,   just not perfect "individual" flowers ( perfect referring to flowers that have both male/ female parts in the same flower. ): Male/ Staminate flowers look like puffballs = all stamens / pollen producing organs. Kind of attractive up close, imo.. Female parts ( Ovary ) is either not present, or is greatly reduced and infertile.. 

Female/ pistillate flowers lack pollen producing organs and are smaller, not as showy..  Think they have 3 tiny petal/ sepal- like looking parts that recurve a bit.. Can tell they're the ones that will produce seeds..  Pull down an inflo and the differences between the two sexes, flower-wise, should be easy to see up close.  Thinking Wodyetia might produce inflos that are either predominately... or all male or female.. Again, i could be totally wrong..  If correct, think that would make it even easier to attempt cross pollination.

As far as timing: when female flowers are receptive to receiving pollen, vs. when male flowers are shedding pollen.. Honestly not sure either.. Couldn't really get up high enough in any of the Foxtails or Veitchia at Kopsick to tell if both opened / were receptive at the same time, or if ..say male flowers open before female, or vise versa...  etc..  

Both ( ...and the Foxy Lady ) seemed as though they always had flowers/ fruit in various stages of development through out the year though.
 

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I think purposeful crosses have already been done many times.  We used to have a nursery that offered wodyetia x veitcha and  the reverse.  As I recall, the foxy lady(former) was the big leaflet nonplumose cross, easily the best looking.  There used to be a half dozen breeders on this forum who either performed the crosses by hand or had someone else do it.  Some go as far as to pollinate with a bag around the female flower stalk).

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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This seems to be a little more complicated than I thought... I think access to the flowers would be the hard part for me... I appreciate the info... Both verities, that I have, have flowers or fruit/seeds most of the year... I guess I'll have to teach some of the local bees to only go from the male veitchia flowers to the female foxtail flowers ;)... Since I have the ingredients, but not the tools or knowledge...

Butch

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For hybrids the two individual palms have to have the same amount of Chromosomes. 1st photo Mule palm, second foxy lady, third foxy lady with tribear behind it. Seabreeze nurseries did the tribear. 

80572271_2564785897133900_7567506829639417856_n.jpg

81136640_1266654853545189_93324176143679488_n.jpg

81147722_582393122546792_7965871080772468736_n.jpg

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1 minute ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Oooh coconut queens !!! I so miss mine =( I haven't seen them available on here in awhile 

I will put some 3 gallons up for sale this summer. Our seedlings sold out pretty quickly. Have some sprouting now but they are spoken for.

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1 minute ago, ErikSJI said:

I will put some 3 gallons up for sale this summer. Our seedlings sold out pretty quickly. Have some sprouting now but they are spoken for.

That's awesome!!! Definitely keep me in mind =) You growing foxy ladies too ? 

T J 

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22 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

That's awesome!!! Definitely keep me in mind =) You growing foxy ladies too ? 

We have not done any in a few years.  There seems to be more of a demand for them.

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Just now, ErikSJI said:

We have not done any in a few years.  There seems to be more of a demand for them.

If foxy ladies are more cold hardy then either parents then this hybrid definitely has a purpose. The fact that it displays hybrid vigor is another reason it should be grown more. 

T J 

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I wouldn't make that claim of it being more cold hardy then both the parents at best maybe a couple degrees. You see nurseries trying to rename the queen palm all the time because of certain provenance.  Piru, mountain, silver etc.  They all die within a couple degrees of each other. If there is a scientific study on it for palms. I have yet to see it.  With all the variables in hybrids and not knowing which parent palm it is going to take on the most. It is impossible to know for every seedling.

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2 hours ago, ErikSJI said:

I wouldn't make that claim of it being more cold hardy then both the parents at best maybe a couple degrees. You see nurseries trying to rename the queen palm all the time because of certain provenance.  Piru, mountain, silver etc.  They all die within a couple degrees of each other. If there is a scientific study on it for palms. I have yet to see it.  With all the variables in hybrids and not knowing which parent palm it is going to take on the most. It is impossible to know for every seedling.

I totally get that ...... Just from browsing PT I have gotten the feeling that most people's experience with Foxy ladies have been that there a tad bit more hardy then there parents. Even a couple degrees could make a huge deal on full defoliation or death. Foxtails are grown here all the time but most palm enthusiasts know it's only time before a cold snap takes them out. If foxies grow as fast as they do they should take over growing foxtails in general imo. 

T J 

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Here is a volunteer Phoenix hybrid that has me thinking roebelenii and reclinata mix. 20191229_120936.thumb.jpg.3e49611e56fbb0b2356962274d2521cd.jpg

Leaf stem 11' with spines along the lowest 4'10" of stem. 

Typical leaf from one of the larger trunks of the group. 

20191229_121041.jpg

Edited by Tampa Scott
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On 12/28/2019 at 3:56 PM, ErikSJI said:

For hybrids the two individual palms have to have the same amount of Chromosomes. 1st photo Mule palm, second foxy lady, third foxy lady with tribear behind it. Seabreeze nurseries did the tribear. 

81147722_582393122546792_7965871080772468736_n.jpg

Awesome tri-bear! I feel like I am the only one who likes these things. Any idea if Seabreeze has any for sale?

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8 hours ago, Tampa Scott said:

Here is a volunteer Phoenix hybrid that has me thinking roebelenii and reclinata mix. 20191229_120936.thumb.jpg.3e49611e56fbb0b2356962274d2521cd.jpg

Leaf stem 11' with spines along the lowest 4'10" of stem. 

Typical leaf from one of the larger trunks of the group. 

20191229_121041.jpg

Cool stuff these Phoenix hybrids around here. I see them viciously growing along the railroad tracks and and drainage ditches, almost always in a clumping form, daring anyone or anything to try to disturb them. I wonder if some of these hybrids will overcome Texas date palm decline?

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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