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Is this just some minor Damage or is it reason to worry?

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Palmfarmer

Today over night i suddenly noticed one of the fronds pushing out on my mule palm had gone completly yellow and dry. I planted it just one week ago and the coldest it has experienced is a few hour brief dip to -1, daytime temps have been 20c and night 5 on average. Is this just some minor frost damage or is it some kind of severe shock?

 

also someone mentioned it looked more like a Butia x allogopteria than regular mule, if thats the case how cold hardy are those? I could not find any info online about Butia x allogopteria by the way thats why i ask. 

Watering wise i have given it 10 liters per day this first week and plan on giving it 10 liters every other day then tapering down to 2-3 times per week. The soil does not drain super good but its not horribe either.  Size wise its around 1 meter tall. 

I read on some other palm forum that this was often caused by a combo of wet soil and cold wheater so how shoud i water this if its the case?

butia.jpg

butia2.jpg

Edited by Palmfarmer

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

I believe it is something to worry about. It's never good for the newest fronds to be discolored. Usually when transplanted a palm will burn off the nutrients of the oldest fronds first. I have found in my clay soil Mules prefer to be mound planted. How did you amend your soil ? 

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Chester B

I'd be worried too.  Whenever I've seen that it's usually the end.  Might want to get some peroxide on that to see if you can clean it up.

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Estlander

Assuming it has some kind of crown rot, you can try the peroxide treatment. But if the spear pulls, then to speed things up, it’s best to behead the palm until you see healthy tissue.  That way you cut out the infected part and air can dry it all out. 

 

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Fusca
16 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Watering wise i have given it 10 liters per day this first week and plan on giving it 10 liters every other day then tapering down to 2-3 times per week. The soil does not drain super good

It sounds like too much water to me for this time of year.  If your soil does not drain that well then 2-3 times per week is probably OK to start and then taper down from that.  If you can check the soil a few inches down and it still feels moist you don't need to add more water.  Butia (and Butia hybrids) don't need so much water especially in cool/cold weather.

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Stevetoad

thats no good. the spear will pull out. i would start dumping H2o2 into the growing point to try and kill any rot that has set in. I think thats your only hope.

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Palmfarmer

Thanks for input going to hardware store AS we speak. How much should i pour down there each time and how often? 

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Stevetoad
5 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Thanks for input going to hardware store AS we speak. How much should i pour down there each time and how often? 

you cant really over due it. id do it at least once every other day. pour in enough that it over flows the growing point

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Palmfarmer

Ok, do you recommend just cutting of the dead spear as well? Is there a percentage Max you would not go over? Can i use the peroxide they sell at hair salons? 

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Stevetoad
6 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Ok, do you recommend just cutting of the dead spear as well? Is there a percentage Max you would not go over? Can i use the peroxide they sell at hair salons? 

I dont know. Ive always used the stuff they sell at the drug store. 3% i think it is. the spear will pull out with a slight tug soon. no need to cut it. the recovery can be a long one too if it recovers at all.  I had a Bizzy do this and it took 2 years before i saw it put out a new spear. funny enough its now my biggest and fastest bizzy. 

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Palmfarmer

Yeah i bought a lot at the pharmacy now its between 2.5 and 3.5 depending.

yes the survivors becomes the most Hardy sometimes.  7 dollars for this 

IMG_20191218_155723524.jpg

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Steve in Florida

They like dry winters.   You're watering like it is summertime.   Overwatering during the winter will likely lead to root rot and death.  During the winter you just need to water to keep the rootball from drying out. 

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Palmfarmer
18 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

They like dry winters.   You're watering like it is summertime.   Overwatering during the winter will likely lead to root rot and death.  During the winter you just need to water to keep the rootball from drying out. 

yes i was overwatering way too much. the thing was i was in a dilemma due to this being planted in winter and you need extra water to make it root. i have given it a solid dose of hydrogen peroxide now and i will wait a few days until the soil drys up some more and give it 8 liter per irrigation 2x week while i give it hydrogen peroxide every other day. sounds ok? 

Edited by Palmfarmer

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UK_Palms
27 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

They like dry winters.   You're watering like it is summertime.   Overwatering during the winter will likely lead to root rot and death.  During the winter you just need to water to keep the rootball from drying out. 

My winters are far from dry here and I get a lot of wet-cold, but I have never seen this happen to my Butia Odorata. I also have Queens here which have taken -2.5C so far this winter and remained undamaged. He gets considerably less rainfall than I do and has less cold in general. So I doubt it is wet-cold damage. 

Possibly transplant shock? The damage looks similar to what I experienced on my Washingtonia Robusta last spring. I still don't know what caused that though. Despite having perfectly fine, green fronds emerge in March and April, it started pushing out brown, dead looking fronds in May and into June. But it did grow out of it eventually. Kind of odd.

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Palmfarmer
6 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

My winters are far from dry here and I get a lot of wet-cold, but I have never seen this happen to my Butia Odorata. I also have Queens here which have taken -2.5C so far this winter and remained undamaged. He gets considerably less rainfall than I do and has less cold in general. So I doubt it is wet-cold damage. 

Possibly transplant shock? The damage looks similar to what I experienced on my Washingtonia Robusta last spring. I still don't know what caused that though. Despite having perfectly fine, green fronds emerge in March and April, it started pushing out brown, dead looking fronds in May and into June. But it did grow out of it eventually. Kind of odd.

I Believe it might be shock as well. since this palm was first grown in veracruz mexico. Then shipped in a box for 2-3 days up here to durango where it is much more dry and cold and then planted in the ground. I agree i overwatered but i find it weird that the spear should start to rot after only 1 WEEK OF WATERING anyone have any input? 

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Palmfarmer

Here is photos from today as seen it does pull out some healthy leafs on the other side.  The wet is from the peroxide treatment. 

butiatoday2.jpg

butiatoday.jpg

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Palmfarmer

is it benificial to mix in some peroxcide when i water the plant as well? 

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Phoenikakias
54 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

I Believe it might be shock as well. since this palm was first grown in veracruz mexico. Then shipped in a box for 2-3 days up here to durango where it is much more dry and cold and then planted in the ground. I agree i overwatered but i find it weird that the spear should start to rot after only 1 WEEK OF WATERING anyone have any input? 

Fungi are always there but only weakened palms sicken.

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Steve in Florida
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

My winters are far from dry here and I get a lot of wet-cold, but I have never seen this happen to my Butia Odorata. I also have Queens here which have taken -2.5C so far this winter and remained undamaged. He gets considerably less rainfall than I do and has less cold in general. So I doubt it is wet-cold damage. 

Possibly transplant shock? The damage looks similar to what I experienced on my Washingtonia Robusta last spring. I still don't know what caused that though. Despite having perfectly fine, green fronds emerge in March and April, it started pushing out brown, dead looking fronds in May and into June. But it did grow out of it eventually. Kind of odd.

Do you have 70F highs on winter days like he says he does?  

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Steve in Florida
2 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

yes i was overwatering way too much. the thing was i was in a dilemma due to this being planted in winter and you need extra water to make it root. i have given it a solid dose of hydrogen peroxide now and i will wait a few days until the soil drys up some more and give it 8 liter per irrigation 2x week while i give it hydrogen peroxide every other day. sounds ok? 

I have extremely sandy soil and found that watering once every two weeks was too much. I have palms from two to 12 feet tall.  There is very low evapotranspiration during the winter as compared to hotter months.   Excessive application of hydrogen peroxide in the crown with increase rot since it breaks down to water.  You want the crown to dry out as quickly as possible after applying it so I would apply hydrogen peroxide a maximum of once every one to  two weeks and do it early in the day so it will dry quickly.  You can find your weekly evapotranspiration rate by leaving a container full of water outside and measuring how much has evaporated over a week.  If you find birds or other animals are drinking from the container you can simply poke down in the soil near the rootball and water when the top one inch has gotten very dry.  

It's likely the palm was grown at a frost free nursery and was in growth mode when you received it.  After it was planted it experienced frost for the first time which is extremely damaging to new growth and was very overwatered and not allowed to dry out.  I have seen this happen many times.     

Edited by Steve in Florida

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Steve in Florida
48 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

is it benificial to mix in some peroxcide when i water the plant as well? 

Yes.  Hydrogen peroxide will kill most of the bad bacteria in you soil plus send oxygen directly to the roots.

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UK_Palms
2 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

Do you have 70F highs on winter days like he says he does?  

No, I wasn't implying that I do. Although I did hit 74F last February. 

1 hour ago, Palmfarmer said:

I Believe it might be shock as well. since this palm was first grown in veracruz mexico. Then shipped in a box for 2-3 days up here to durango where it is much more dry and cold and then planted in the ground. I agree i overwatered but i find it weird that the spear should start to rot after only 1 WEEK OF WATERING anyone have any input? 

After seeing the more recent pics that you have just uploaded, I can see the damage is far worse than I first realised. That spear looks to be as dead as a dodo. A week of overwatering with 70F highs and no rain isn't going to damage the palm that quickly, to that extent. Especially if the lowest you've had during that time is -1C. No way. 

Either the palm was infected with a disease when purchased, or the ground and soil is contaminated in some way. It could even be impact damage to the growing point, caused while in transit, or by it blowing over when in a pot, before it was planted. Whatever it is, that spear doesn't look good. Probably a bacterial disease. Hopefully the Peroxide treatment helps it bounce back. 

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Steve in Florida
9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

No, I wasn't implying that I do. Although I did hit 74F last February. 

 

What I was trying to convey was that your growing conditions are much cooler than his.  Palms grown under colder conditions react differently from ones grown under much warmer conditions.  Even active good and bad bacteria can be different and react differently.  If you imported actively growing Butia or mule palms from a frost free nursery in Europe and watered the heck out of them and did not protect them from frost you would likely be experiencing similiar problems as Palmfarmer.

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Palmfarmer

Thanks for the input guys. It does suck if it does die, but at least i have learned something. so Peroxide once every two weeks then and i will water much more sparingly checking the soil every time and hopefully it pulls through. I will keep you guys updated. 

Coming to think of something my queen was planted at allmost the same time and it has no damage although it is in extremly well draining soil. it was bought at a local nursery though so maybe it has been exposed to some cold wheater before. 

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Palmfarmer

I gave the yellow spear and leaf a bit of a tug and them came out pretty easily. both where wet at the tip. the spear tip was so soft now it almost felt Like undercooked spaghetti. I rinsed one more time with Peroxide to make sure that i get rid of bacteria from the spear and the leaf i just pulled out. 

 

What will happen now? will the plant just lose all leaves or will it continue to carry leaves untill it eventually dies completly or grows a new spear? is there any point in closing the hole up? it will probably not rain here in a couple of months. 

 

spearpulled.jpg

butianospear.jpg

butiaoverall.jpg

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Palmfarmer
On 12/18/2019 at 11:14 AM, Estlander said:

Assuming it has some kind of crown rot, you can try the peroxide treatment. But if the spear pulls, then to speed things up, it’s best to behead the palm until you see healthy tissue.  That way you cut out the infected part and air can dry it all out. 

 

as you can see its gone today. if i choose this option how far down should i cut? any other members here that has good experiences with beheading palms? 

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Steve in Florida

It could possibly produce new growth in the spring.  If your winters are very dry that's much better for recovery.  Keep the growth point open so it will stay dry.  Cutting the trunk is the last thing to try and should always be done when there is no more chance of a freeze that would kill the tender new growth.  Losing a new leaf is not a big deal.  I've seen many palms recover from that, even in the wild. 

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Palmfarmer
5 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

It could possibly produce new growth in the spring.  If your winters are very dry that's much better for recovery.  Keep the growth point open so it will stay dry.  Cutting the trunk is the last thing to try and should always be done when there is no more chance of a freeze that would kill the tender new growth.  Losing a new leaf is not a big deal.  I've seen many palms recover from that, even in the wild. 

ok thanks, So you think it has a good chance of surviving? 

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Steve in Florida
3 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

ok thanks, So you think it has a good chance of surviving? 

Yes,  as long as the roots don't rot from too much moisture in the soil.

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Palmfarmer
4 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

Yes,  as long as the roots don't rot from too much moisture in the soil.

I am letting it dry up so i think it should be fine. have not watered since monday and its still moist so i will wait untill tomorrow and see how the soil is. hope i dont kill it by drying it out too much. Thanks for all the help so far. 

Edited by Palmfarmer

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Steve in Florida

I did a little calculation of when you were watering with 10 liters of water per day for a week.  If you were watering a square foot area that is the equivalent of 28 inches of rainfall over one week!

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GottmitAlex
4 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

I did a little calculation of when you were watering with 10 liters of water per day for a week.  If you were watering a square foot area that is the equivalent of 28 inches of rainfall over one week!

:o

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Estlander
3 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

as you can see its gone today. if i choose this option how far down should i cut? any other members here that has good experiences with beheading palms? 

The fact that it’s winter and your area experiences freezing temps. is not helping things, but you start cutting high and move downward until you no longer see any brown musty smelling plant matter. 
If you cut downward centimeter by centimeter should be safe. 
In the summer you’d see new growth pushing upwards in a matter of hours. 



 

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Fusca
22 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

any other members here that has good experiences with beheading palms? 

I agree with Steve - cutting the trunk is a last resort.  Below are a few pics of my Copernicia alba that experienced -7°C (20°F) back in January 2018.  It had just started to go palmate and still obviously small.  The problem was not the cold but rather the hot Christmas lights that I wrapped around it to "protect it".  I didn't realize how hot the lights would get until after one night of use and they fried the leaves to a crisp!  In late February I performed the surgery cutting down to just a few inches.  The first pic was taken the day after cutting showing new growth.  The second pic was taken a week later.  It took about 6 months or more to get back to the size it was before the damage and is now about 6' overall height!

I've also had success with a spear pull and applying hydrogen peroxide as you have just done.  Keeping the hole dry is good and I think you will be fine with no rain forecasted in the near future.  If it is indeed a hybrid mule palm you should see some new growth fairly soon letting it dry out some.  Best of luck to you!

 

1772825859_Copernicaalba-Feb2018.thumb.JPG.043d0cbd2b9dbb318e94394f8e5826bd.JPG

1035405859_Coperniciaalba-Mar2018.thumb.JPG.683438e79fc8024b128f22227897fe3d.JPG

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Tyrone

I’ve just had a spear pull on my 9ft tall Syagrus pseudococus. Everything else looks fine on the plant except for the shrivelled up new spear. In went the peroxide. I’m hoping it recovers. I don’t want to try cutting the trunk down yet. The second newest spear is still dark green and hasn’t fully opened. Here’s hoping it’s still pushing that spear out. Very weird as the plant has been in the ground about 3 years.

Palmfarmer, if your plant wants to live it will keep going. It’s a bit of a waiting game though. If it doesn’t keep going the growing bud is likely already dead.

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Palmfarmer

Thanks for all the info guys, there is supposedly going to rain quite a lot next sunday. but i cover the hole to the best of my abilities with some plastic and plan to rinse it afterwards with peroxide.

Kind of offtopic i have a old Filfera that lost all its leaves because i cut of to much of its roots back in september when i planted it. it still seems alive, the spear and a frond that seemingly is spreading but i am not 100% sure. however the spear and green foliage are slightly moist so i belive it is alive. js jt normal that a filifera pushes its leaf so slow? its been gradually spreading maybe 1 cm the last 2 months. what is the longest i should wait with the filifera before i behead it? 

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Palmfarmer

The mule is going down rapidly now. I Have done nothing but cleaning it out with peroxide properly once and checked the soil for moisture. 

All the leaves has turned quite stiff and lost their moisture. Is this a goner now or is it normal for a palm to lose all its fronds once the spear goes but still be alive? 

If it dies i definitly buy a new one in spring and not go crazy on the watering. The mule is probably among my top 5 palms now.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

From the sounds of it most likely a goner. I had a mule spear pull and I waited the whole growing season to let it recover since all the oldest fronds were lush green. With no apparent growth I finally decided to cut and found the palm had been dead for awhile. Doesn't sound like you will have the same waiting game. I have found mules in my gumbo clay to be more troublesome then both its parents. 

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petiole10
On 12/19/2019 at 12:07 AM, Steve in Florida said:

Do you have 70F highs on winter days like he says he does?  

70F is the highest ever recorded winter temp in the UK and was attained last winter. The 74F that UK member states is exaggerated and is to be ignored, much as are most recordings from that particular vicinity

@PalmfarmerSorry to hear about your palm. It seems unlikely, but is still just about possible that the central growing point may recover. The plant will be going through shock process, hence the other fronds dying back - but left alone and kept as dry as can be, there is a slight chance fresh growth may emerge in the Spring. from the cleaned growing point.  You can still buy another mule and then the existing struggling one is a bonus if it recovers :)

 

Edited by petiole10

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UK_Palms
5 hours ago, petiole10 said:

70F is the highest ever recorded winter temp in the UK and was attained last winter. The 74F that UK member states is exaggerated and is to be ignored, much as are most recordings from that particular vicinity

Not sure why you need to raise this, in such a manner, when I was just responding to a question I was asked. He asked me if I experience 70F highs in winter, to which I clearly replied 'no'. Although I also mentioned that I had recorded 74F last February.

Yes, 70.9F is the 'official' highest MET recorded winter temperature in the UK. But on that same day, last February, I recorded 74.1F in my yard and there were multiple independent weather stations in my vicinity showing 73-75F. So it's not my fault that there are no 'official' Met Office stations within a 10 mile radius of me to verify such recordings, officially. 

And you're saying that my recording of 74F is false and exaggerated, as are "most" recordings in my area, supposedly. Haha. Alright then. So tell me, what part of southern England are you actually from then? You seem to know my climate in the western fringes of the Surrey Hills far better than I do. 

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