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David_Sweden

Value of 2.7m Lipstick Palm?

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David_Sweden

I reached the point where my Lipstick Palm is too big for my apartment, which is 2.4m to the ceiling:

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It also has 4 stolons which reach outside the pot and more are on the way - probably each of these can eventually be cut off to start new palms:

Stolons.thumb.jpg.2d1257f8bfb551f247ff71566c7c2744.jpg

And my Rhopalostylis  baueri will also have to go now - reaches 15 cm below the ceiling but new fronds are more vertical at first and hit the ceiling so hard there is some damage before fully unfolded:

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I suppose anyone who grows palms indoors will have to think of a plan what to do after a few years when they get too big. I had hoped to move to an apartment with more space but that does not seem to happen. And maybe also make some small changes to slow down growth a bit (natural changes, like a bit less light).

I already gave away a Kentia to a kind of botanical garden (Universeum) 2 years ago that got too big:

Kentia_r.thumb.jpg.c8ecd6a5f3e34d351b9a56a3e93285b6.jpg

But even a Kentia this size has a normal price tag of about €200 to 350 and rarer ones seem to usually cost at least twice as much. The Lipstick palm I think is a special case since I find nobody selling these in Europe, and since e g the reputable Palmbob considers this to be the most beautiful palm in the whole world. I'm thinking of trying to sell it to a luxury hotel, shopping center or commercial botanical garden for at least €1000, maybe €3000. Does that sound reasonable? Unfortunately I can't sell it at e g eBay in the winter.  

I'm also a bit concerned about by whom and how it will be managed. Shopping centers I bet have special "plant people" hired. It needs decent humidity (has had normally 40-50%RH with a peak of ~60% in the morning) and temperature, but I hope they have climate control that can manage this. Ordinary indoors air in Sweden in the winter will not do (can easily go down to 30%). And it needs good light, but I use two 70W ceramic metal halide spots which are intended for shops plus that they often have lots of glass. I also wonder if they realize and can handle if the soil needs to be swapped. For some reason Lipstick palms are really easy when it comes to roots and aeration in the senses that roots do not stick out the bottom more than 1 cm or so, and the roots seem to create a fine mesh that helps drainage because even though it is mostly peat (with ~25% seramis) it is very well drained. Peat will break down but so will any soil mix (some, like bark or coir, just a bit later). I wouldn't want to be the one to exchange all the soil although it might well be doable in a big tub.  And my Kentia was twice as old in almost 100% peat and less well draining so it might be long before soil breaks down in a bad way I'm guessing.

BTW the Lipstick is tilted a bit to the right! This is because when the last frond emerged on the main stem, I had to tilt it to the left to avoid damage (almost), and it stood like that for a few weeks, and when I erected it again, it had an angle to the right since it seems to have copnsated for my tilt. But since then, it has not un-tilted itself. Actually, the top front pointing to the right should point to the left.

Edited by David_Sweden
Correction
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PalmatierMeg

In Sweden: Priceless? I sold two 3m red & green lipsticks 5-6 years ago for $200 each on eBay with free pickup. They were worth a lot more but I wanted to rehome them before winter. The problem is not only pricing it but being realistic about value and knowing if there is a market of informed palm lovers for it at your desired price. Only you have a concept of that. You may want to look into internet auction sites that might list it.

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dalmatiansoap

Wow! Impressive plants, I hope you will find new home for them. My choice would be botanical gardens before anything else.

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Rickybobby

Awesome. And people say they aren’t good house plants? Wow they look perfect 

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PalmatierMeg

I agree, David. You really have the touch for growing palms indoors. A botanical garden route may be the way to go if you can't find a buyer. Could you write off its value with a receipt from such an organization? It would be a shame if you sold those beautiful palms to someone without the knowledge and ability to keep them alive.

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Valhallalla

How about the Palm House (Palm Huset)? It shouldn't hit the ceiling there.

http://tradgardsforeningen.se/wps/portal/enhetssida/tradgardsforeningen/palmhuset/!ut/p/z1/nZDBCoJAFEW_pYVb35vRTNqNZokFmiDZbMJiGgN1xCyhr09qkxAh3d17nHMXFzikwKvsfpFZe1FVVvT3nlsHk66QBCZZh9HMRrawKbqGj7Zrwe4FRGTBiNkD6JMlsq1nhbFnIm6mwMf4OAhDJ6aOgbgK6T_-Z9M4_wfAf9cHwGWhju-pWHU0bAm8EWfRiEa_Nf07b9v6OtdQw67rdKmULIR-UqWG35RcXVtIhyTUZZIk6WMjdmzyBB_sl04!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/

https://www.goteborg.com/en/palmhuset/

I had the opportunity to visit The Palm House and surrounding gardens when I was in Göteborg in June 2002. I stayed in a hotel a few blocks away so it was a short walk. I spent a few hours checking out the glass house and the gardens. Cool place.

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David_Sweden

I know. There are 3 houses with palm trees in Gothenburg: The Botanical Garden (owned by the region but financed 50% by fees, 50% by the region), the municipal "Palmhuset" (meaning "The Palm House") and Universeum (actually a kind of indoors amusement park with a big jungle section with lots of palm trees). And I gave my Kentia to Universeum. Didn't see it there though when I looked but I might have overlooked it and they said it might end up in the staff's coffe room..  When I gave the Kentia away I asked all 3.  The Botanical Garden was not interested. The Palm House never replied. BTW The Palm House already have a Rhopalostylis  sapida although much smaller than mine. Some palms there look a bit pitiful.. But all in all it's a nice place.

Thanks for all comments.

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GottmitAlex
11 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

I agree, David. You really have the touch for growing palms indoors. A botanical garden route may be the way to go if you can't find a buyer. Could you write off its value with a receipt from such an organization? It would be a shame if you sold those beautiful palms to someone without the knowledge and ability to keep them alive.

Hear, hear!

Your potential (local) buyers for those specific plants are either: Botanical garden/ greenhouse nursery and/or an aficionado with a very tall ceiling.

 

 

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Ittai Baratz

Wow, such an amazing palm. I've seen them everywhere in Singapore, but nowhere else. 

How long did you have it and did you start from seed? What's the temperature in your house normally? My house is usually around 50% RH and I do have some humidifiers running for my aroids.. 

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David_Sweden

Thanks. I bought it as a 90cm plant with just green leaves in June 2015, there is a pic above showing it at that date and in 2019, to scale. Temp is usually 22-23 degC. Was lucky to find one. It had mealy bugs though, but they all met a gruesome death. :evil:

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wimmie

David, a few years ago, in the trade here in Holland I bought a Lipstick in your size for 35 euro's. So, if I were you, I would just look for a genuine palmenthousiast to pass it on and maybe trade it for something else? Good to see that Palms do well in your care!

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Matt in OC

Wow, that's incredible. I'd love to know what you use for potting soil. You have the magic touch!

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Allen

Free shipping to TN, USA?  Nice palm!!!!!!!!!!!

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David_Sweden

Thanks. Can't be shipped in the winter, this palm dies if subjected to below ~+10degC they say. Have stated humidity and soil already.

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Xenon
16 hours ago, wimmie said:

David, a few years ago, in the trade here in Holland I bought a Lipstick in your size for 35 euro's.

35 euros??! That's crazy cheap. 

David, your palms are amazing! Even better looking than many specimens outdoors

Edited by Xenon

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wimmie
On 12/11/2019 at 10:16 AM, Xenon said:

35 euros??! That's crazy cheap. 

David, your palms are amazing! Even better looking than many specimens outdoors

Yes, that was crazy cheap indeed, even cheaper than Howea's of the same size.  Guess I was just a lucky guy!

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David_Sweden

I now got reply from Palmhuset that they are not interested even for free (and this is even though they have a Rhopalostylis sapida half the size om my Rhopalostylis baueri and not nearly as nice).

Universeum is even stranger: Their "gardener" said they want "durable" plants so that they can cope with people, and that they focus on palms from South America. These palms are not less durable than any other, just require decent environment, which they probably easily can provide. The Lipstick they could even place in a pond for special effect. And focus on S America? How come they accepted my Kentia 2 years ago then? It comes from outside Australia just like Rhopalostylis baueri. The visitors certainly won't care what part of the world they come from,  they just want pretty exotic palms with different looks. Well, I know they don't have any palm course at the gardener's university SLU...

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Ittai Baratz
2 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

I now got reply from Palmhuset that they are not interested even for free (and this is even though they have a Rhopalostylis sapida half the size om my Rhopalostylis baueri and not nearly as nice).

Universeum is even stranger: Their "gardener" said they want "durable" plants so that they can cope with people, and that they focus on palms from South America. These palms are not less durable than any other, just require decent environment, which they probably easily can provide. The Lipstick they could even place in a pond for special effect. And focus on S America? How come they accepted my Kentia 2 years ago then? It comes from outside Australia just like Rhopalostylis baueri. The visitors certainly won't care what part of the world they come from,  they just want pretty exotic palms with different looks. Well, I know they don't have any palm course at the gardener's university SLU...

Well if you can't sell it, can you chop off the main trunk and let the suckers grow? I've seen people do that with Bananas grown as houseplants.

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palmsOrl
6 hours ago, Ittai Baratz said:

Well if you can't sell it, can you chop off the main trunk and let the suckers grow? I've seen people do that with Bananas grown as houseplants.

This is what I should and would have done had I really thought it through.

Retail nurseries in South Florida are selling Cyrtostachys renda the size of the one the original poster has for thousands of dollars.  It is a shame that there is not more of a market in Sweden.

Cyrtostachys renda tends to require equatorial tropical rainforest conditions and wet, rich soil to thrive.  Specific conditions for sure, but if the basic requirements are met, it is not a difficult palm to grow.  I would keep trying to sell it online within your country.

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David_Sweden

Hm to cut off the main stem sounds kinda horrible. Or isn't it? Wouldn't that leave a big hole in the middle?

I wrote about Universeum and Palmhuset because I am flabbergasted about their complete lack of what would be a sensation and attraction and the pityfully unskilled gardener who imagines these trees are more delicate that others. Palmhuset have a few gigantic palms but most of them are tiny and unimpressive, they really should step up and have higher ambitions.

Anyway, for me this is a bigger, general issue: If one gets a small palm and is successful at growing it then after a few years it will be too big for your apartment so I need a plan for what to do at that point. I thought getting paid would be a good general plan, especially for a palm people repeatedly say can not be grown indoors, but more importantly to find a nice home for them. Otherwise I'd better stop having palm trees at all. Or stick to the few dwarf types any maybe some very slow growing ones.

My plan B would rather be to keep them until spring and then sell them at e g eBay, I'm sure it is easy to find buyers for the Baueri. The Renda many enthusiasts would want but outdoors conditions in Europe at best are a bit like California I think which is not good enough. So if not a botanical garden, hotel etc, then an enthusiast with a greenhouse or suitable house with climate control and plenty of room. I doubt I will find such a person within range in Sweden. In the spring I could maybe even ship it outside Europe to any place where customs won't stop it.

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Kim

I don't know about the botanical places you have mentioned, but these days most serious botanic gardens are very stringent about "accession," meaning provenance of the palm or the seed. The goal seems to be 1) to be able to show documented compliance with national and international regulations and 2) to have a pure product on display -- the real deal, from the source, not a hybrid, etc.  That said, I am not in any way educated as a botanist or scientist and may have misstated the purpose, but that is my impression. Gardens and zoos constantly get offers of donations but rarely accept them. And certainly, in your case, the challenge of keeping the palm healthy is beyond the will of the garden administrators to keep it alive.

I will chime in with others to say you have succeeded phenomenally where most have failed, with your exquisite Cyrtostachys renda.

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David_Sweden

Thanks. I could help them with compliance in the sense show receipt from eBay, I doubt the seller "seltene-pflanzen" imports them from outside Europe since he would get caught if doing it in the scale he has. Other than that I can't see any certificate etc being warranted within the EU. But I don't think these are the reasons. More likely it is bad management and/or gardeners, or gigantic ignorance. Palmhuset has lots of plants that were given and Universeum already got one and the manager was positive, the gardener not. "Botaniska" is smaller.

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wimmie

Maybe sell it to a tropical (swim)paradise?

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Miami_grower

These do need wet toes to thrive. Ours in Miami had slow growth in a 2 m wide, 2 m deep pit of specially prepared soil (combating Miami's alkaline soil) mix. After a year, following the experience at Fairchild Gardens, I moved them (in 10 gal containers) to a backyard fish pond edge submerged 10 cm or so. In two years I had to divide them and replant, the divisions(1.5 m) went for $300 each. 

I use the same guidance for my seedlings now. After sprouting they go in tubes, in about 3 cm of a moving water tray(all under light, indoors). They go outside in Deeppots after that. 

There are buyers all over who would want large ones. I sold a set to a enthusiast in Upstate New York. I warned him about the temperature requirement. "No  problem, he had a tropical pool & arboretum at the center of his restaurant." 

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David_Sweden

Where is the tropical paradise? Can not ship it in the winter, it is too cold.

I had a seedling too before which i sold. My experience with the seedling is clear: Sure u can keep it wet but it works equally well to treat it like most other plants i e water when (slightly) moist. Requirement for wet feet i think is a myth or exaggeration. But sure better too much than too little.

The same goes for my big Renda although last few months i have seen some unexpected brown tips, my theory is maybe soil is partially a bit dry but am not sure. I use one of them cheap moisture meters, only way to get a pic of moisture deep down, but pot is so deep now it doesnt reach everywhere

Edited by David_Sweden

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David_Sweden

By now I at least got 2 replies from sensible persons: The Botanical Garden in Gothenburg would be interested if it wasn't for that they are building new greenhouses at the same spot where it is today which means relocating all plants step by step the next few years so they won't add to the collection. And the Botanical Garden in Uppsala say they can't pay anything and that they can't arrange transportation in the immediate future. So if anyone knows a way to get them from Göteborg to Uppsala for free then let me know..

I could put an ad at e g eBay (or the Swedish version "Tradera") but I don't think there's a good way to assure the buyer is suitable. And even less a way to adjust price depending on buyer, e g I could give them away if it was for a public Botanical Garden but if it is a wealthy collector he would not get them for free..

The solution that makes most sense is to keep them until spring when I believe I can find buyers at e g eBay. But i will be tricky to manage handling both transport and to care for them for about 4 months in this smaller apartment, and even more since I can't move them straight from here to the new flat.

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Rickybobby

I hope my palms get this big someday that I have the same problem. Well done on growing these indoor giants 

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abdalav

Maybe a shopping mall or a hotel with a high ceiling lobby would be interested. But if I were you, I'd try to keep the clustering ones by cutting the largest stems.

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David_Sweden

I e-mailed 4 shopping malls and 5 luxury hotels Dec 12th with reminder Jan 11th but no response. With the reminder I required "read receipt" and got 4 (people can say no to receipts) but all were delivered. I don't think any one of them is likely to be capable of handling the Lipstick palm well but the Baueri should be very suitable. Guess I could call them but would take lots of time and I'm busy moving, and would expect them to show interest..

Don't know why people talk about chopping the main stem off.  I can see several reasons why not:  it is ~5 cm wide at the lower part plus all the fronds emerging from there so it would leave a big gap, at least 10cm; I couldn't cut it close to the soil and hardly even use a saw since it is impossible to avoid the other stems then, there are plenty of them; and finally, what is beautiful is the red stems and chopping the main stem off would put me back in time by years, it has reached a point when there's so much red stems it looks quite nice but if I every few years cut off the biggest stem then most of the time it would not look very nice. No, it should be somewhere with minimum 3 m to the ceiling.

A major general disappointment from my point of view though is that if it is this hard to find buyers or even takers of big palms then what is the point of growing palms indoors at all? It felt good to no longer be the "killer of palms" like everyone else, I know how Kentias are produced in assembly line factories and even IKEA sell big amounts of this and other palms, and they don't last very long and don't grow very big in general because most people don't know much about how to treat even the easiest palms. I could help people learn how to treat palms and even help introducing more types but why should I, it would just mean lots of big palms ending up at dumps. Better to stick to dwarf types then, and maybe some really slow growing ones like Coccothrinax.

On the other hand there are sellers in Europe of big palms, several in Germany like Palme Per Paket and Palmenhandel with at least 9m high palms, and several rather big in Spain selling over eBay. So there seems to be a market. Palmenhandel I assume must sell the big ones to institutions and companies mainly.

Edited by David_Sweden

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David_Sweden

I found a company in Germany who want the Lipstick palm. However I checked prices to ship these palms. DHL Express allow up to 3 metres and I estimate these to require about 300x50x50cm however cost is over €2000 (doesn't matter if 100 kg or 50 kg, price is due to volume)! Should I cut it to 1,8m cost would still be a bit over €1000! And Schenker don't allow >120cm from private persons.

I used to have a company and I know if you are a customer, you get much lower prices, big companies with good deals pay a fraction. In any case, this stops any chance of selling these over eBay. The recipient would have to be a company with a good deal at DHL or other.

I don't know if eBay themselves offer good shipping options. Can't find anyone at ebay.co.uk selling palms >2m outside the UK. Since I don't like in the UK I doubt they offer any help at all. Meaning I can't use eBay to sell palms this size. Well eBay is quite horrible for sellers anyway.

Edited by David_Sweden

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abdalav
On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 4:12 AM, David_Sweden said:

w why people talk about chopping the main stem off.  I can see several reasons why not:  it is ~5 cm wide at the lower part plus all the fronds emerging from there so it would leave a big gap, at least 10cm; I couldn't cut it close to

The main reason to cut it would be: you can keep the plant. The option (if you don't find a new home to it) is seeing it perish in the cold outside your home.

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David_Sweden

I totally disagree on that point. If one manages to make palms do well in an apartment, within a few years it will become too big, so one should have a plan for that. My plan A was to move to an apartment with 3 m to the ceiling and then give it light fewer hours so that it would last maybe several years more. But as it turns out I am moving to another flat with standard height 2,4 m. Also, even with a 3 m ceiling flat they will eventually reach the ceiling. And even today they are becoming hard to manage with a 24 L pot 39 x 39 cm, my way of flushing plants is to put them on top of a bucket and flush and that is hard and heavy now, requires some space to the ceiling and even the bucket looks like it would give in if bigger. And to be honest, such big palms look awesome and majestic in an airy space but crowded in here.

If I was to keep a C renda in a 2,4 m apartment and cut main stems maybe every 3 years then during each 3 year period it would most of the time look quite disappointing. In fact, even now I consider it as being "almost at full potential"  when it comes to looks. With a 3 m ceiling it would reach what I would call full potential when it comes to looks, with an impressively big amount of red stems.

It's a pity that I failed to get an apartment with higher ceiling and have to move in the middle of the winter with C renda hating cold temps (some say it dies if below +5C some +10C). 

My plan B, after completion of plan A, I expected to be way off in the future and would involve finding a good home, either in e g  a botanical garden or sell it e g on eBay. It is disappointing to see the shipping costs and I used to have a company so I know that as a company customer you get much lower rates and more options but companies with big shipping volumes get even much lower rates, that's how it works.

And imagine if I was able to teach people (ordinary persons, not the ones in this forum) how to properly take care of their Kentias and Arecas etc which today are small and declining only to die after a few years, it would mean tremendous amounts of  big palms every year with nowhere to go. Well I suppose one way to overcome that is if people change to growing only dwarf types, and cold-hardy ones which can be put in European gardens, and rarer types which e g botanical gardens and hotels would welcome, especially slow-growing types, i e not so many Kentias anymore. But if I can't arouse an interest with a C renda this size and a R baueri then it looks really dark on the botanical garden & hotel front as well as the eBay front. 

I have looked over what the shopping malls and luxurious hotels look like around here and I have to say shopping malls are not suitable for R baueri since it is more wide than high and they don't have wide empty areas, they would rather want plants that don't spread much except in height. And some hotels are "old style" in old buildings and quite narrow-ish. But many newer ones have vast open areas and look like they are yearning for a R baueri, I will talk to some of those today.

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