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Dartolution

Sabal blackburniana Inquiry

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Fusca
59 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I still remember the sign the listed this as Sabal blackburniana back in the 2000’s. If my computers never crashed I am sure I would have a picture of the sign. Nevertheless, that trunk is sweet. It is just not entirely leaf hardy for zone 8b. I can recall it from 20 years ago, it’s grown- lost its boots- but grown slowly. It’s trunk does remind me of the Causarium at Fairchild Gardens. Even those back in 2005 were too tall to notice anything but the trunk.

As of this past weekend I could not detect any new growth on this palm.  The other Sabals closer to the building are pushing new growth but also had 100% leaf damage.  Those 2 Sabals were labeled as mexicana but the extent of damage makes me question the ID based on other mexicana I have seen around town in more exposed areas with much less leaf damage.

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Collectorpalms
3 minutes ago, Fusca said:

As of this past weekend I could not detect any new growth on this palm.  The other Sabals closer to the building are pushing new growth but also had 100% leaf damage.  Those 2 Sabals were labeled as mexicana but the extent of damage makes me question the ID based on other mexicana I have seen around town in more exposed areas with much less leaf damage.

What? You checked out that big boy and it’s not looking good??

Those “Mexicana” burned in 2010 and 2011 as well.

It is plausible that they are wrong, or we are talking about different hardiness in some Mexicana. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Collectorpalms

Look at these Sabal Mexicana, they survived 1989 and they look horrible this time. I couldnt see any green yet from a ways away.

some how I am feeling lucky that some of my palms are doing better than others locally. May be just the sheer number of palms I have lol

2B1C731A-E44D-46FD-B77B-C17A83ADFCB3.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms

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GoatLockerGuns
15 minutes ago, Fusca said:

other mexicana I have seen around town in more exposed areas with much less leaf damage

I have noticed the same.  I have two juvenile Sabal mexicana planted in the ground that weathered the freeze just fine unprotected.  Both suffered only minor leaf "burn," and both are pushing up new spears post-freeze.  One of those Sabal mexicana still only has strap leaves!  I grew both from seed harvested from Sabal mexicana growing on Lackland AFB.

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Fusca
6 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

What? You checked out that big boy and it’s not looking good??

Those “Mexicana” burned in 2010 and 2011 as well.

It is plausible that they are wrong, or we are talking about different hardiness in some Mexicana. 

No signs of life yet but no reason to think it's done. 

Probably is variation within mexicana but the garden is not very diligent about putting out correct signage.  A couple of visits ago I informed them that they had a sign with Chamaerops humilis in front of a silver Serenoa repens and no other palms within 100' to be confused with.  They've since removed the sign but haven't replaced it with the correct one yet.  There are several unlabeled palms in their palm-pavilion and I am probably going to post an ID request thread in the main forum soon to see if anyone can identify what looks like a Dypsis with a round seed.

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RJ
On 4/9/2021 at 1:42 PM, Collectorpalms said:

Look at these Sabal Mexicana, they survived 1989 and they look horrible this time. I couldnt see any green yet from a ways away.

some how I am feeling lucky that some of my palms are doing better than others locally. May be just the sheer number of palms I have lol

2B1C731A-E44D-46FD-B77B-C17A83ADFCB3.jpeg

I thought one of the identifying at tributes os the Texas Saba (mexicana) was the flower stalks are short; shorter the the leaves. Those palms clearly  have longer then flowers ... 

Edited by RJ

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Collectorpalms
1 hour ago, RJ said:

I thought one of the identifying at tributes os the Texas Saba (mexicana) was the flower stalks are short; shorter the the leaves. Those palms clearly  have longer then flowers ... 

Here is a Texas Sabal directly from the Sabal Mexicana preserve, on the Rio Grand You can see the similarities. When inflorescence first come out they are straight up or out and then slowly hang down to the sides or straight down.Typically when then have viable seeds they are heavy and hang down toward the trunk. But a lot of time caterpillars eat the baby seeds.

other two factors are the large seed size, and the fact that Sabal palmetto stayed mostly green. I doubt these are a rare pair of Sabals. (Something other than Mexicana or Palmetto).

E40538A1-4CFF-4F26-9E1B-C4239D60E05F.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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tlow
On 4/9/2021 at 12:56 PM, GoatLockerGuns said:

I have noticed the same.  I have two juvenile Sabal mexicana planted in the ground that weathered the freeze just fine unprotected.  Both suffered only minor leaf "burn," and both are pushing up new spears post-freeze.  One of those Sabal mexicana still only has strap leaves!  I grew both from seed harvested from Sabal mexicana growing on Lackland AFB.

Here is a 15G S. Mexicana that we planted as 15G in October, after the freeze... I was sure this thing was a goner.. Defoliated entirely, trimmed off a bunch of Petioles but it stayed green and it's now growing like a weed!

IMG_20210225_094425.thumb.JPG.c4f93a62e0f305be7c439369c98cc369.JPG

Here it is now, just a few days ago... Since then I can see the petiole coming up and the fronds have split... pretty excited and if it came back it through this freeze, boy it should be good going forward..

IMG_20210404_154509.thumb.JPG.8928885cc52c980b89473df7120da8c8.JPG

Here is another one we got that I have not written off yet.. It hasn't moved or done very much but the petioles are still green so I am leaving it alone.  Hoping the summer wakes it up.

IMG_20210406_165541.thumb.JPG.12b3ecab91770b3ba13ae99c1554c75b.JPG

 

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RJ
11 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Here is a Texas Sabal directly from the Sabal Mexicana preserve, on the Rio Grand You can see the similarities. When inflorescence first come out they are straight up or out and then slowly hang down to the sides or straight down.Typically when then have viable seeds they are heavy and hang down toward the trunk. But a lot of time caterpillars eat the baby seeds.

other two factors are the large seed size, and the fact that Sabal palmetto stayed mostly green. I doubt these are a rare pair of Sabals. (Something other than Mexicana or Palmetto).

 

Hmmmm. Must of got my sabal species confused. I'll have to dig back into my notes. 

Thanks

 

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GoatLockerGuns
11 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

other two factors are the large seed size, and the fact that Sabal palmetto stayed mostly green.

Concur with the larger seed size of Sabal mexicana.  It has been my experience that Sabal mexicana have much larger fruit/seeds than Sabal palmetto.  Below are two sets of seeds I harvested myself a few years back.  The one labeled Sabal palmetto was harvested from a palm in Fort Walton Beach, Florida.  The one labeled Sabal mexicana was harvested from what I believe to be a Sabal mexicana located on Lackland AFB, Texas.

image.jpeg.73e31411c9951b2b2c46f333aa5414ee.jpeg

A picture of the ripe suspected Sabal mexicana drupes aforementioned when the fruit was sill hanging from the palm below (they look similar to bunches of grapes hanging off the vine...they are that big):

image.jpeg.8cf49f296abbadf0ce4e7bc55ee34f44.jpeg

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Collectorpalms
On 12/6/2019 at 7:20 PM, Dartolution said:

S.Blackburniana2-06DEC2019.jpg

Yours looks a lot like this one being offered for sale. Where did yours come from?

01D3E852-CBC3-4CEB-8ACB-39711D9AAD4B.jpeg

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Collectorpalms
25 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

@Collectorpalms Phil from JungleMusic 

After this winter, Do you think it’s one of the big leaf minor ecotypes or what is Sabal Blackburniana coming out of Florida?
 

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Dartolution

@Collectorpalms

Well it survived 16F relatively unscathed and has been pushing growth slowly but surely all winter. Each leaf is getting larger and larger and the hastula / costa (I forget the exact term) appears to be getting longer with each leaf. 

If it is indeed a minor, it is large enough to flower I would imagine, and until such time there is really no point in speculating. I just about drove myself batty last year trying to hahaha! 

"blackburniana" is a unicorn mystery sabal wrapped in an enigma at best. There seems to be a long history of its exact origin and/or parentage, and at present isn't recognized as an official species. 

So, best thing anyone can do at the moment is continue to grow what they believe to be blackburniana, observe and make note, and document when it flowers, seed size etc to try and describe it. 

There is very little literature on the palm, and what exist is conflicting. 

 

For now its a beautiful large leafed sabal that I am quite glad I got. I received it and a beautiful Bismarckia from Phil and don't regret it whatsoever! 

 

All that mess having been said, I do have some blackburniana seeds that I have germinated from @Chris Chance palm. So in a few years we can see what they appear to be as well. 

 

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Dartolution

Here are some better images of it today in the sunlight, and a closeup of the frond. 

SabalBlackburniana121APR2021.thumb.jpg.1097f80fd3fdc1b994b93e1f293183dd.jpg

SabalBlackburniana221APR2021.thumb.jpg.f32a0db7ce27d2b827798969dfebe482.jpg

SabalBlackburniana321APR2021.thumb.jpg.0c03613ab52100eefc50ba7e757ece45.jpg

 

Growth has picked up quite a bit in the last 2 weeks. 

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Chris Chance

Here's mine now days. Popping out some more flowers.

20210411_113607.jpg

20210411_113624.jpg

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Collectorpalms
1 hour ago, Chris Chance said:

Here's mine now days. Popping out some more flowers.

20210411_113607.jpg

20210411_113624.jpg

Thank you for update! What is your average low, and lowest low there?

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Chris Chance
On 5/4/2021 at 12:54 PM, Collectorpalms said:

Thank you for update! What is your average low, and lowest low there?

The lowest I seen here is 27 so it really hasn't been tested here. Definitely bullet proof for me.

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Dartolution

Here are from shots from today. Also one of the germinated seeds from @Chris Chance for a size example.

SabalBlackburniana110MAY2021.thumb.jpg.a57391fe9089d39c5060680cf259a6a8.jpg

SabalBlackburniana210MAY2021.thumb.jpg.87434aa7ea1ee6f594925834c7868e6d.jpg

SabalBlackburniana310MAY2021.thumb.jpg.e96c3cbad37abdd363afedb49d776dea.jpg

SabalBlackburniana410MAY2021.thumb.jpg.49fd2ef0ed958840e14276163fb1ccf4.jpg

CCBlackburnianaSeed10MAY2021.thumb.jpg.ded280b0a2bbff0bf1194707be705afc.jpg

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ando.wsu

Here is my 8 year old sabal blackburniana.  At least that is what it was labeled as when i purchased it.  5 years ago it was barely peaking over the block fence and has since taken a liking to the AZ heat.  

481F6275-0098-460C-8696-6B539B89F9EB.jpeg

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Dartolution

Looks great @ando.wsu! Is it on drip irrigation? Fertilizer?

Where did you obtain yours?

 

 

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ando.wsu
1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

Looks great @ando.wsu! Is it on drip irrigation? Fertilizer?

Where did you obtain yours?

 

 

my house has been a rental the last 5 years and i just recently sold it to close mid january.  Fairly certain it has not been fertilized by the tenants nor watered adequately judging by the dead and non existent grass.  It is on a drip system however. 

when i lived there i fertilized frequently.  Other palms that survived the last 5 years of neglect were a brahea brandigii (sp), chinese fan palm clump.  Palms that died were queens, royal, triangle, butia palms. All of the mexican, pigmy date and european fan palms thrived (blue and green forms).  i had too many palms for tenants to manage as a rental property when i moved to hawaii the last 5 years. So i somewhat expected this. 

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Dartolution
16 hours ago, steve617 said:

Wanted to share this. I've been intrigued about the Blackburniana. This link has a little info. I've ordered 2 from them this morning and having them shipped in April. https://www.plantdelights.com/products/sabal-blackburniana

@steve617 PDN is a good nursery to order from I doubt you'll be disappointed. 

However, The image represented appears more like a Minor to me for a 10 year old flowering palm of that size, and the fact that the inflorescence is held outside the leaf canopy. 

I also don't see the light colored interior of the frond closest to the petiole that is in mine and other references - though that may be more of a characteristic of sabal bermudana. 

 

It's a mystery still.

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teddytn

Sabal Blackburniana that just came in the mail. Biggest palm I’ve ever received from PDN, usually just strap leaf stage. Has the same lime green color as @Chris ChanceD4F6153D-17CC-40E2-BC02-96239A2E7D4A.thumb.jpeg.2e947be789abd4d36035315477570688.jpeg

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Allen
1 hour ago, teddytn said:

Sabal Blackburniana that just came in the mail. Biggest palm I’ve ever received from PDN, usually just strap leaf stage. Has the same lime green color as @Chris Chance

That's a great looking palm from PDN.  Surprised it's not full strap leaf.  You've got a lot of palms in the background there!  What is your current list of palms looking like?

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teddytn
2 hours ago, Allen said:

That's a great looking palm from PDN.  Surprised it's not full strap leaf.  You've got a lot of palms in the background there!  What is your current list of palms looking like?

That’s how every other palm I’ve ever received from them has been was strap leaf. That’s a tough question to answer. I’ll try my best. This is just what’s potted.

26 Sabal palmetto various sizes from 2 year olds up to 3 gallon, 5 gallon, 7 gallon plant. All Panama City beach Florida seed source.

3 Sabal etonia

4 Sabal Brazoria, 3 strap leaf, 1 seven gallon

1 Sabal minor mccurtain strap leaf

2 Sabal minor Emerald Isle giant strap leaf

7 Sabal Birminghams, 6 strap leaf, 1 one gallon

1 Sabal palmetto fat boy 1 gallon

8 Sabal minor NC variety, 6 two year olds, 1 three gallon, 1 seven gallon

2 Trachycarpus Takil, 3 gallon

6 Trachycarpus fortunei, 3-4 year olds

1 Trachycarpus wagnerianus, 4 year old

1 Serenoa repens silver, 3 gallon

1 med fan humilis, 3 gallon

1 Sabal tamaulipas, strap leaf

1 Sabal Blackburniana, 1 gallon we’ll call it. Those are all in that plant room. Tons of other stuff in there. Yuccas, opuntias, lavenderF6D733C7-85DD-4512-A7E1-03A5C3FF2C1D.thumb.jpeg.00c7ac73a173bb6f569416029fd74733.jpeg0B08F837-4A32-419F-ABCF-821BDB21BC72.thumb.jpeg.535347df911fbaab96e7e790414047a1.jpegUpstairs I might have 4 times the number of palms, all seed starts since the fall. These are all seedlings.

30 Sabal bermudana

40 Sabal palmetto Florida 

4 Sabal minor florida

6 Sabal minor somewhere in texas

14 Sabal minor Chappell hill, TX

33 Sabal minor South Georgia

25 Sabal minor savanah silver

19 Sabal minor talladega 

17 Sabal tamaulipas

7 Sabal louisiana

4 med fan vulcano

2 phoenix dactlifera

A few others that haven’t sprouted yet. I’m tired of not having availability to palms to mess around with. Being where we are I really want quite a few to plant to experiment with, losing one may not be the end of the line for a species. Need a bigger sample size to really decide if it’s hardy or not here. All the different minor varieties are rock solid here for sure, I’ll have a bunch to share in a few more months. Try to keep the plastic bags over the top or I would have to water more than once a week, especially the pots still on the heating mat.75A8D4AB-80E1-4642-B252-6348ED79AD01.thumb.jpeg.03269ce963da3934e8af0fe835f4bb96.jpeg8284D633-F78E-483D-9067-B603BB992E39.thumb.jpeg.77a862693386b0c820a9097fa6d54b3e.jpeg

4370D44D-24D3-425D-8F85-D911A8BC2B52.thumb.jpeg.9c52885a791fda64a07cc94c9137e3ab.jpegE4B32049-4041-4105-95CD-BF8837BE37BC.thumb.jpeg.2d07dd123c5aca03a51de21627568247.jpeg

 

 

 

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Allen
1 hour ago, teddytn said:

That’s how every other palm I’ve ever received from them has been was strap leaf. That’s a tough question to answer. I’ll try my best. This is just what’s potted.

26 Sabal palmetto various sizes from 2 year olds up to 3 gallon, 5 gallon, 7 gallon plant. All Panama City beach Florida seed source.

3 Sabal etonia

4 Sabal Brazoria, 3 strap leaf, 1 seven gallon

1 Sabal minor mccurtain strap leaf

2 Sabal minor Emerald Isle giant strap leaf

7 Sabal Birminghams, 6 strap leaf, 1 one gallon

1 Sabal palmetto fat boy 1 gallon

8 Sabal minor NC variety, 6 two year olds, 1 three gallon, 1 seven gallon

2 Trachycarpus Takil, 3 gallon

6 Trachycarpus fortunei, 3-4 year olds

1 Trachycarpus wagnerianus, 4 year old

1 Serenoa repens silver, 3 gallon

1 med fan humilis, 3 gallon

1 Sabal tamaulipas, strap leaf

1 Sabal Blackburniana, 1 gallon we’ll call it. Those are all in that plant room. Tons of other stuff in there. Yuccas, opuntias, lavenderF6D733C7-85DD-4512-A7E1-03A5C3FF2C1D.thumb.jpeg.00c7ac73a173bb6f569416029fd74733.jpeg0B08F837-4A32-419F-ABCF-821BDB21BC72.thumb.jpeg.535347df911fbaab96e7e790414047a1.jpegUpstairs I might have 4 times the number of palms, all seed starts since the fall. These are all seedlings.

30 Sabal bermudana

40 Sabal palmetto Florida 

4 Sabal minor florida

6 Sabal minor somewhere in texas

14 Sabal minor Chappell hill, TX

33 Sabal minor South Georgia

25 Sabal minor savanah silver

19 Sabal minor talladega 

17 Sabal tamaulipas

7 Sabal louisiana

4 med fan vulcano

2 phoenix dactlifera

A few others that haven’t sprouted yet. I’m tired of not having availability to palms to mess around with. Being where we are I really want quite a few to plant to experiment with, losing one may not be the end of the line for a species. Need a bigger sample size to really decide if it’s hardy or not here. All the different minor varieties are rock solid here for sure, I’ll have a bunch to share in a few more months. Try to keep the plastic bags over the top or I would have to water more than once a week, especially the pots still on the heating mat.

 

Wow you really have it going on.  I didn't realize you had so many.  Hope you got a good shovel for all that stuff.  How many are going in the ground this year?

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teddytn
1 hour ago, Allen said:

Wow you really have it going on.  I didn't realize you had so many.  Hope you got a good shovel for all that stuff.  How many are going in the ground this year?

It’s a disease lol. For just palms in the 30 or more range should make it in the ground this year. All the seedlings will stay potted at least another year or more. I need to get my hands on at least 10 more minors this year and then I should be good 

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steve617

Thanks I had delayed shipping on mine till April. Have 2 coming from pdn. I should have put an earlier date. Perhaps I can change. 

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MarkbVet
On 11/25/2019 at 5:48 PM, Dartolution said:

I have found it increasingly difficult to find good information on this cultivar. 

Does anyone have any experience with this sabal, or know of references I can check out for information about its culture?

I have one on the way soon and want to make sure I know as much as possible.

Thanks :)

Well...PlantDelights has had one (at least) of these for years, so you could write and ask them re: their experiences with it; this palm is very hardy according to them.  They mentioned their seed source was Huntington Gardens, so I'd also contact them if you can; they may be full of good info (though their climate zone may be quite a bit milder than that of PlantDelights). 

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MarkbVet

@teddytn nice peanut cactus (Chamaecereus) you have there... I've got 3 outdoors against the house (somewhat rain sheltered) but no other protection:  one is the classic cherry red blooms, other  2  are hybrids, one with white flowers, and a larger stemmed one with purple flowers.  All 3 are living and growing well just from getting less winter rain (they rot in my open cactus garden).   In So. Oregon I'm thinking they'll live w/o rain protection.   Pretty flowers on these (and profuse bloomers!)  

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teddytn
10 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

@teddytn nice peanut cactus (Chamaecereus) you have there... I've got 3 outdoors against the house (somewhat rain sheltered) but no other protection:  one is the classic cherry red blooms, other  2  are hybrids, one with white flowers, and a larger stemmed one with purple flowers.  All 3 are living and growing well just from getting less winter rain (they rot in my open cactus garden).   In So. Oregon I'm thinking they'll live w/o rain protection.   Pretty flowers on these (and profuse bloomers!)  

Good eye! Can get confused with mammilaria lady fingers at first glance. I’ve had that potted for maybe 9-10 years now. Got hit by some bugs last year when it was outside, but that thing is a champ. Super easy to root segments and start new ones too. Jealous you can grow this outside! Lol

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teddytn
15 hours ago, steve617 said:

Thanks I had delayed shipping on mine till April. Have 2 coming from pdn. I should have put an earlier date. Perhaps I can change. 

I usually hold off until spring to have plants shipped. This year I’ve had palms, cactus, agaves, yuccas all shipped in the mail during the winter with no problems. I would try and change the date if they’ll let you. 

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steve617

I sent them an email for March instead of April. Be intresting how they do. Yours looks very nice.

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tlow

Any update on this one?  Love these and I'm getting 2x from Plant Delights come Friday and going into the ground.  If there are seeds for sale, would be happy to pick some up from ya.  Beauty!

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steve617

I got two from Plants Delight last Friday. Not not near as big as teddytn. I potted mine going to wait a year or 2 probably. I also ordered some seeds from Chris Chance on ebay. 

So I have a story. Here is the short version. I emailed Hunnington Gardens about their Blackburniana. Thats were the seeds came from that grew the Blackburniana at Plants Delight. Hunnington got their seeds from a Boctanial Garden in Switzerland in 1984. Also if you Google sabal Blackburniana Switzerland you can find a pdf article in a magazine with a photo of a Blackburniana Published in 1908. Of course it seems to be in a green house or observatory. Just surprised they were Blackburniana over 100 years ago.  I kind of have a feeling possibly Blackburniana was reclassified as palmetto. blackburniana is now considered a synonym of S. palmetto. Also Hunnington said there's a chance their seeds could be Hybrids since they are so many there.

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