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Sabal blackburniana Inquiry

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Fusca
59 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I still remember the sign the listed this as Sabal blackburniana back in the 2000’s. If my computers never crashed I am sure I would have a picture of the sign. Nevertheless, that trunk is sweet. It is just not entirely leaf hardy for zone 8b. I can recall it from 20 years ago, it’s grown- lost its boots- but grown slowly. It’s trunk does remind me of the Causarium at Fairchild Gardens. Even those back in 2005 were too tall to notice anything but the trunk.

As of this past weekend I could not detect any new growth on this palm.  The other Sabals closer to the building are pushing new growth but also had 100% leaf damage.  Those 2 Sabals were labeled as mexicana but the extent of damage makes me question the ID based on other mexicana I have seen around town in more exposed areas with much less leaf damage.

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Collectorpalms
3 minutes ago, Fusca said:

As of this past weekend I could not detect any new growth on this palm.  The other Sabals closer to the building are pushing new growth but also had 100% leaf damage.  Those 2 Sabals were labeled as mexicana but the extent of damage makes me question the ID based on other mexicana I have seen around town in more exposed areas with much less leaf damage.

What? You checked out that big boy and it’s not looking good??

Those “Mexicana” burned in 2010 and 2011 as well.

It is plausible that they are wrong, or we are talking about different hardiness in some Mexicana. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Collectorpalms

Look at these Sabal Mexicana, they survived 1989 and they look horrible this time. I couldnt see any green yet from a ways away.

some how I am feeling lucky that some of my palms are doing better than others locally. May be just the sheer number of palms I have lol

2B1C731A-E44D-46FD-B77B-C17A83ADFCB3.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms

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GoatLockerGuns
15 minutes ago, Fusca said:

other mexicana I have seen around town in more exposed areas with much less leaf damage

I have noticed the same.  I have two juvenile Sabal mexicana planted in the ground that weathered the freeze just fine unprotected.  Both suffered only minor leaf "burn," and both are pushing up new spears post-freeze.  One of those Sabal mexicana still only has strap leaves!  I grew both from seed harvested from Sabal mexicana growing on Lackland AFB.

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Fusca
6 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

What? You checked out that big boy and it’s not looking good??

Those “Mexicana” burned in 2010 and 2011 as well.

It is plausible that they are wrong, or we are talking about different hardiness in some Mexicana. 

No signs of life yet but no reason to think it's done. 

Probably is variation within mexicana but the garden is not very diligent about putting out correct signage.  A couple of visits ago I informed them that they had a sign with Chamaerops humilis in front of a silver Serenoa repens and no other palms within 100' to be confused with.  They've since removed the sign but haven't replaced it with the correct one yet.  There are several unlabeled palms in their palm-pavilion and I am probably going to post an ID request thread in the main forum soon to see if anyone can identify what looks like a Dypsis with a round seed.

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RJ
On 4/9/2021 at 1:42 PM, Collectorpalms said:

Look at these Sabal Mexicana, they survived 1989 and they look horrible this time. I couldnt see any green yet from a ways away.

some how I am feeling lucky that some of my palms are doing better than others locally. May be just the sheer number of palms I have lol

2B1C731A-E44D-46FD-B77B-C17A83ADFCB3.jpeg

I thought one of the identifying at tributes os the Texas Saba (mexicana) was the flower stalks are short; shorter the the leaves. Those palms clearly  have longer then flowers ... 

Edited by RJ

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Collectorpalms
1 hour ago, RJ said:

I thought one of the identifying at tributes os the Texas Saba (mexicana) was the flower stalks are short; shorter the the leaves. Those palms clearly  have longer then flowers ... 

Here is a Texas Sabal directly from the Sabal Mexicana preserve, on the Rio Grand You can see the similarities. When inflorescence first come out they are straight up or out and then slowly hang down to the sides or straight down.Typically when then have viable seeds they are heavy and hang down toward the trunk. But a lot of time caterpillars eat the baby seeds.

other two factors are the large seed size, and the fact that Sabal palmetto stayed mostly green. I doubt these are a rare pair of Sabals. (Something other than Mexicana or Palmetto).

E40538A1-4CFF-4F26-9E1B-C4239D60E05F.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms

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tlow
On 4/9/2021 at 12:56 PM, GoatLockerGuns said:

I have noticed the same.  I have two juvenile Sabal mexicana planted in the ground that weathered the freeze just fine unprotected.  Both suffered only minor leaf "burn," and both are pushing up new spears post-freeze.  One of those Sabal mexicana still only has strap leaves!  I grew both from seed harvested from Sabal mexicana growing on Lackland AFB.

Here is a 15G S. Mexicana that we planted as 15G in October, after the freeze... I was sure this thing was a goner.. Defoliated entirely, trimmed off a bunch of Petioles but it stayed green and it's now growing like a weed!

IMG_20210225_094425.thumb.JPG.c4f93a62e0f305be7c439369c98cc369.JPG

Here it is now, just a few days ago... Since then I can see the petiole coming up and the fronds have split... pretty excited and if it came back it through this freeze, boy it should be good going forward..

IMG_20210404_154509.thumb.JPG.8928885cc52c980b89473df7120da8c8.JPG

Here is another one we got that I have not written off yet.. It hasn't moved or done very much but the petioles are still green so I am leaving it alone.  Hoping the summer wakes it up.

IMG_20210406_165541.thumb.JPG.12b3ecab91770b3ba13ae99c1554c75b.JPG

 

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RJ
11 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Here is a Texas Sabal directly from the Sabal Mexicana preserve, on the Rio Grand You can see the similarities. When inflorescence first come out they are straight up or out and then slowly hang down to the sides or straight down.Typically when then have viable seeds they are heavy and hang down toward the trunk. But a lot of time caterpillars eat the baby seeds.

other two factors are the large seed size, and the fact that Sabal palmetto stayed mostly green. I doubt these are a rare pair of Sabals. (Something other than Mexicana or Palmetto).

 

Hmmmm. Must of got my sabal species confused. I'll have to dig back into my notes. 

Thanks

 

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GoatLockerGuns
11 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

other two factors are the large seed size, and the fact that Sabal palmetto stayed mostly green.

Concur with the larger seed size of Sabal mexicana.  It has been my experience that Sabal mexicana have much larger fruit/seeds than Sabal palmetto.  Below are two sets of seeds I harvested myself a few years back.  The one labeled Sabal palmetto was harvested from a palm in Fort Walton Beach, Florida.  The one labeled Sabal mexicana was harvested from what I believe to be a Sabal mexicana located on Lackland AFB, Texas.

image.jpeg.73e31411c9951b2b2c46f333aa5414ee.jpeg

A picture of the ripe suspected Sabal mexicana drupes aforementioned when the fruit was sill hanging from the palm below (they look similar to bunches of grapes hanging off the vine...they are that big):

image.jpeg.8cf49f296abbadf0ce4e7bc55ee34f44.jpeg

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Collectorpalms
On 12/6/2019 at 7:20 PM, Dartolution said:

S.Blackburniana2-06DEC2019.jpg

Yours looks a lot like this one being offered for sale. Where did yours come from?

01D3E852-CBC3-4CEB-8ACB-39711D9AAD4B.jpeg

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Dartolution

@Collectorpalms Phil from JungleMusic 

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Collectorpalms
25 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

@Collectorpalms Phil from JungleMusic 

After this winter, Do you think it’s one of the big leaf minor ecotypes or what is Sabal Blackburniana coming out of Florida?
 

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Dartolution

@Collectorpalms

Well it survived 16F relatively unscathed and has been pushing growth slowly but surely all winter. Each leaf is getting larger and larger and the hastula / costa (I forget the exact term) appears to be getting longer with each leaf. 

If it is indeed a minor, it is large enough to flower I would imagine, and until such time there is really no point in speculating. I just about drove myself batty last year trying to hahaha! 

"blackburniana" is a unicorn mystery sabal wrapped in an enigma at best. There seems to be a long history of its exact origin and/or parentage, and at present isn't recognized as an official species. 

So, best thing anyone can do at the moment is continue to grow what they believe to be blackburniana, observe and make note, and document when it flowers, seed size etc to try and describe it. 

There is very little literature on the palm, and what exist is conflicting. 

 

For now its a beautiful large leafed sabal that I am quite glad I got. I received it and a beautiful Bismarckia from Phil and don't regret it whatsoever! 

 

All that mess having been said, I do have some blackburniana seeds that I have germinated from @Chris Chance palm. So in a few years we can see what they appear to be as well. 

 

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Dartolution

Here are some better images of it today in the sunlight, and a closeup of the frond. 

SabalBlackburniana121APR2021.thumb.jpg.1097f80fd3fdc1b994b93e1f293183dd.jpg

SabalBlackburniana221APR2021.thumb.jpg.f32a0db7ce27d2b827798969dfebe482.jpg

SabalBlackburniana321APR2021.thumb.jpg.0c03613ab52100eefc50ba7e757ece45.jpg

 

Growth has picked up quite a bit in the last 2 weeks. 

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Chris Chance

Here's mine now days. Popping out some more flowers.

20210411_113607.jpg

20210411_113624.jpg

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Collectorpalms
1 hour ago, Chris Chance said:

Here's mine now days. Popping out some more flowers.

20210411_113607.jpg

20210411_113624.jpg

Thank you for update! What is your average low, and lowest low there?

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Chris Chance
On 5/4/2021 at 12:54 PM, Collectorpalms said:

Thank you for update! What is your average low, and lowest low there?

The lowest I seen here is 27 so it really hasn't been tested here. Definitely bullet proof for me.

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Dartolution

Here are from shots from today. Also one of the germinated seeds from @Chris Chance for a size example.

SabalBlackburniana110MAY2021.thumb.jpg.a57391fe9089d39c5060680cf259a6a8.jpg

SabalBlackburniana210MAY2021.thumb.jpg.87434aa7ea1ee6f594925834c7868e6d.jpg

SabalBlackburniana310MAY2021.thumb.jpg.e96c3cbad37abdd363afedb49d776dea.jpg

SabalBlackburniana410MAY2021.thumb.jpg.49fd2ef0ed958840e14276163fb1ccf4.jpg

CCBlackburnianaSeed10MAY2021.thumb.jpg.ded280b0a2bbff0bf1194707be705afc.jpg

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