Giant Washingtonia Filifera i came a cross

[SeanK]

8 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

That is so sad that this beautiful Palm was chopped down! But I am glad to hear that you preserved the genetics by taking seeds and I remember your lovely garden, that is good news that the offspring will be protected and become a permanent part of your paradise! Now at least this story has a happy Palm ending!

And YES I am not botanist but I have seen enough Washingtonia that I absolutely believe that deserves to be noted as a different form that trunk is uncommon at 20 years even much older Filiferas don’t have trunks that fat, definitely looks more like Jubea size.

Incredible I could tell from the short height that the Palm wasn’t even very old! I have seen much older Filiferas that  don’t have trunks anywhere near that wide! Nice find and great addition to any Palm collection!

Can you explain a genetic basis for dividing Washingtonia into two distinct species vs. lumping everything into one?

[Dwarf Fan]

2 hours ago, SeanK said:

Can you explain a genetic basis for dividing Washingtonia into two distinct species vs. lumping everything into one?

As I have said before I am no botanist just a guy who stares at Palm trees everywhere I go, so pardon me if I misunderstand your question but if you are asking about genetic traits of the two species here is what I have learned and use to ID Washingtonias:

Washingtonia Robusta (Mexican Fan Palm) - Lighter “Shiny” Green Palmate fronds with segments that are NOT cut below the half way point, Trunk is wider at the base and tapers thinner up towards the crown, max height up to about 100’. Crown size is SMALLER in width than Filifera. Larger “Shark Teeth” like spines more evenly spaced on Petiole. Overall slender and thinner more “dainty” shape.

Washingtonia Filifera (California Fan Palm) - Darker “Matte/Flat” Green Palmate fronds with segments that ARE deeply cut below the half way point, trunk is more cylindrical in shape and tends to be wider in girth max height up to about 60’. Crown size is larger in width Robusta. Smaller tiny more “spikey” spines spaced more irregularly on the Petiole. Overall thicker wider and more “stout” shape.

I have seen 100s of not 1000’s of both species of Washingtonias in habitat in Southern California, Baja Mexico and Texas.  I use the above genetic traits as a sort of quick checklist to ID which of the two species I am looking at. 

Now Texas is a bit of a head scratcher at times because it has such a proliferation of FILIBUSTA Hybrids all over the state that it makes getting positive ID on a Washy a bit on more difficult here at times. 
 

My personal take on the geographic spread of Washingtonia in the regions I have frequented breaks down as follows:

Southern California - Prolific mix of Robusta and Filifera and Filibusta Hybrids. More Robustas along the coast and primarily PURE Filifera in desert regions.

Baja Mexico - Primarily PURE Robustas with some pockets of Filiferas.

Texas - East Texas PURE Filifera and PURE Robusta.

Central and South Texas: Pure Robusta and LOTS of Filibusta Hybrids very few PURE Filiferas.

 

Anyone else want to chime in and critique my observations feel free, as I said I am a novice Palm lover and these are just casual observations not empirical scientific data points. 

[SeanK]

21 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

As I have said before I am no botanist just a guy who stares at Palm trees everywhere I go, so pardon me if I misunderstand your question but if you are asking about genetic traits of the two species here is what I have learned and use to ID Washingtonias:

Washingtonia Robusta (Mexican Fan Palm) - Lighter “Shiny” Green Palmate fronds with segments that are NOT cut below the half way point, Trunk is wider at the base and tapers thinner up towards the crown, max height up to about 100’. Crown size is SMALLER in width than Filifera. Larger “Shark Teeth” like spines more evenly spaced on Petiole. Overall slender and thinner more “dainty” shape.

Washingtonia Filifera (California Fan Palm) - Darker “Matte/Flat” Green Palmate fronds with segments that ARE deeply cut below the half way point, trunk is more cylindrical in shape and tends to be wider in girth max height up to about 60’. Crown size is larger in width Robusta. Smaller tiny more “spikey” spines spaced more irregularly on the Petiole. Overall thicker wider and more “stout” shape.

I have seen 100s of not 1000’s of both species of Washingtonias in habitat in Southern California, Baja Mexico and Texas.  I use the above genetic traits as a sort of quick checklist to ID which of the two species I am looking at. 

Now Texas is a bit of a head scratcher at times because it has such a proliferation of FILIBUSTA Hybrids all over the state that it makes getting positive ID on a Washy a bit on more difficult here at times. 
 

My personal take on the geographic spread of Washingtonia in the regions I have frequented breaks down as follows:

Southern California - Prolific mix of Robusta and Filifera and Filibusta Hybrids. More Robustas along the coast and primarily PURE Filifera in desert regions.

Baja Mexico - Primarily PURE Robustas with some pockets of Filiferas.

Texas - East Texas PURE Filifera and PURE Robusta.

Central and South Texas: Pure Robusta and LOTS of Filibusta Hybrids very few PURE Filiferas.

 

Anyone else want to chime in and critique my observations feel free, as I said I am a novice Palm lover and these are just casual observations not empirical scientific data points. 

Thanks. I believe most of us use the same criteria to eyeball these. What I wonder though, is there a chromosomal basis to decide between two species or just one. It's similar to deciding how many species under Trachycarpus; first one must decide what genetics define differentiation.

[Dwarf Fan]

6 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Thanks. I believe most of us use the same criteria to eyeball these. What I wonder though, is there a chromosomal basis to decide between two species or just one. It's similar to deciding how many species under Trachycarpus; first one must decide what genetics define differentiation.

So no DNA/Genetic tests have EVER been preformed and published to differentiate W. Robusta Vs. W. Filifera? These two species have only just been VISUALLY IDed up to this point in history?!? I know that there are lots of obscure Palms that haven’t been lab tested but these are iconic trees! These are the “Hollywood” Palm trees seen in countless blockbuster movies for decades… Washingtonias are an icon for goodness sake!

If this is what you are saying it seems to point to something that I am picking up on during my short time here so far on Palm Talk. There is a TON that we collectively do not know about Palm trees not only at the Scientific/Botanical level, but even the lack of Palm knowledge at every local nursery I have ever been to has been extremely disappointing and frustrating! 99.99% people on the planet do not know or care to know squat about Palm trees! What makes this even more infuriating is that EVERYONE universally associates them with Fun Vacations, Beautiful Beaches, Exclusive Resorts, Tropical Paradises etc. you would think the Palm tree would be one of the most studied plants on Earth but apparently not everyone shares our affinity for this noble tree.

Dare I say that Palm Talk might be currently the best place on the planet to get accurate and up to date information about Palm trees?

That whole Butia Capitata/Odorata debacle was not only hilarious it really illustrated how even the “experts” are not even necessarily “experts” when it comes to IDing Palm trees. LOL!

[SeanK]

@Dwarf Fan - Add to that the multitude of species which have shifted genus in the last 23 years! There needs to be a 23&Me for palms.

[Dwarf Fan]

55 minutes ago, SeanK said:

@Dwarf Fan - Add to that the multitude of species which have shifted genus in the last 23 years! There needs to be a 23&Me for palms.

^^^ That is right how could I have forgotten that little gem!

“With what we have now learned, we now know that we know much less than what we previously that we knew.”

- Some Palm tree “expert” somewhere probably 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Dwarf Fan