Palm Identification

[NCFM]

I recently saw this palm on Belews Lake, NC while fishing.  It's pretty tall (the picture doesn't do it justice) and looks like it's been there for quite a while. I figured it was a trachycarpus fortunei but I may be wrong.

Edited November 16, 2019 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[Chester B]

Sure looks like one with a mega skinny trunk.

[NCFM]

3 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Sure looks like one with a mega skinny trunk.

Yeah, the trunk looks different than those of the other trachycarpus I see around here.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Trachycarpus Nova??

[NCFM]

12 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Trachycarpus Nova??

 

12 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Trachycarpus Nova??

I think you may be right

[mdsonofthesouth]

Yeah I really want to try on of those. @TexasColdHardyPalms you still selling them?

[Swolte]

I got one from TCHP last year and its been doing great getting through the past summer.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Yes.  I have a lot of them.

[mdsonofthesouth]

9 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Yes.  I have a lot of them.

 

Can you send me a quote for one?

[Chester B]

18 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

 

Can you send me a quote for one?

He has an ebay sellers account.  They're posted there.  

[Bigfish]

Looks like a regular old Trachycarpus fortunei to me.  ‘Nova’ isn’t nearly as cold-hardy as fortunei, and plus it’s not common at all.

[NCFM]

23 hours ago, Bigfish said:

Looks like a regular old Trachycarpus fortunei to me.  ‘Nova’ isn’t nearly as cold-hardy as fortunei, and plus it’s not common at all.

Well this lake is in zone 7a, so I don't know if a Nova would survive there or not. However, the property it was on had several other species of palms including a sabal palmetto and a large needle palm bush, so I'd imagine the owner is interested in palms and might have bought a rarer variety. 

[Bigfish]

I don’t think that ‘Nova’ is hardy to zone 7.  From what I have heard and read, it’s quite a bit less hardy than fortunei.

[RyManUtah]

4 hours ago, Bigfish said:

I don’t think that ‘Nova’ is hardy to zone 7.  From what I have heard and read, it’s quite a bit less hardy than fortunei.

I would agree. Everything I’ve read, I don’t see a nova surviving in 7, unless they provide it protection. I have a seedling that I’m hoping survives my 8 long term when it’s in the ground. Looks like fortunei, but skinny. Genetics? 

regardless, it’s a good looking palm 

[NCFM]

14 hours ago, Bigfish said:

I don’t think that ‘Nova’ is hardy to zone 7.  From what I have heard and read, it’s quite a bit less hardy than fortunei.

Oh ok, I guess this one is just an older fortunei. 

[Manalto]

Ring the doorbell and ask!

[NCFM]

13 hours ago, Manalto said:

Ring the doorbell and ask!

It's a vacation home and I doubt they're around much this time of year. I'll have to look out for them next summer.

[Tropicdoc]

Looks identical to all the older trachycarpus around here

[RyManUtah]

I have limited experience with growing Trachycarpus, but a have noticed a variance of truck thickness among local fortunei. The ones in my yard seem to have a lot thicker trunks Than most. I would assume it all comes down to environment: sun exposer, water, soil, etc. 

[Fusca]

I've seen a few Trachys planted around the San Antonio Riverwalk with the "hair" stripped/burned off so the smooth trunks make them look thinner.  Hard to tell from the original photo but it kinda looks like that was done to that palm.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Looks to me like the older petiole bases remain in that pic. Around here they grow to decent diameter and some can be rather hefty. 

Cheers.

[Chester B]

6 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Looks to me like the older petiole bases remain in that pic. Around here they grow to decent diameter and some can be rather hefty. 

Cheers.

East coast trachys seem to be pretty scrawny compared to our west coast ones.  Seems like warm nights and humidity make the difference. 

[mnorell]

13 minutes ago, Chester B said:

East coast trachys seem to be pretty scrawny compared to our west coast ones.  Seems like warm nights and humidity make the difference. 

No, they are not 'scrawny' in the least. Trachycarpus fortunei grows beautifully in the Deep South and there are many, many specimens 20+ feet tall to prove it. They are very quick growers there. There is a small naturalized forest of them in Natchez, Mississippi that is something to behold. That being said, there are gorgeous specimens in and around Bellagio/Lago di Como in Italy. A diametrically opposed climate! The key word, I think, for this species is 'versatile.'

[Chester B]

10 hours ago, mnorell said:

No, they are not 'scrawny' in the least. Trachycarpus fortunei grows beautifully in the Deep South and there are many, many specimens 20+ feet tall to prove it. They are very quick growers there. There is a small naturalized forest of them in Natchez, Mississippi that is something to behold. That being said, there are gorgeous specimens in and around Bellagio/Lago di Como in Italy. A diametrically opposed climate! The key word, I think, for this species is 'versatile.'

Yep I totally agree.  Perhaps I should clarify that It's not the canopy that is "scrawny",  its the very narrow trunks they seem to have.  I don't know if they grow faster down there and that's why they appear that way.  We have fortunei here that have trunks that are as wide as me.

As far as versatility I totally agree - sun/shade, dry/wet they seem to take it all.

[NCFM]

15 hours ago, mnorell said:

No, they are not 'scrawny' in the least. Trachycarpus fortunei grows beautifully in the Deep South and there are many, many specimens 20+ feet tall to prove it. They are very quick growers there. There is a small naturalized forest of them in Natchez, Mississippi that is something to behold. That being said, there are gorgeous specimens in and around Bellagio/Lago di Como in Italy. A diametrically opposed climate! The key word, I think, for this species is 'versatile.'

In Greensboro NC they are fairly abundant, some over 25-30 foot. Their trunks are a lot thicker so that’s what threw me off. Do you know the coordinates of the forest in Natchez, I’d love to take a look at that on google maps. There are some naturalized fortuneis here too in Greensboro around an old cemetery.

Edited December 9, 2019 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[mnorell]

Chester, you must be one skinny fellow! I've never seen a Trachycarpus fortunei trunk that I would say is anywhere as wide as a person...but I've never been to Oregon either and I know trees grow pretty robustly there 

And Gray, you can only see the less impressive (and not so tall) "full sun" specimens in the Natchez grove from Google aerials or street-view. It is at the end of a short street called Gastrell Avenue. The really impressive part of the grove isn't quite visible from the satellite pics as it is understorey. It started when a well-known horticulture professional there, who used to have a nursery, many years ago planted some of them at a house on the edge of a ravine/creek (in Mississippi called a 'bayou'). A lush, shady area under a lot of tall trees going down the embankment to the creek, and over the years many, many trees sprouted and spread downhill...and one would have to sort of scale down into the ravine (amidst the poison ivy!) to really get the full effect. Those downslope trees form a wonderful canopy as I remember in that shady, moist environment. I'm sure there are more like this throughout the south, as in the right circumstances they are pretty gregarious. Most of the trunks in Natchez eventually lose their leaf-bases in a moist, shady situation--not so easily in sun--and thus give a slender effect, certainly in proportion to their tall statures after a few years.

[NCFM]

9 hours ago, mnorell said:

Chester, you must be one skinny fellow! I've never seen a Trachycarpus fortunei trunk that I would say is anywhere as wide as a person...but I've never been to Oregon either and I know trees grow pretty robustly there 

And Gray, you can only see the less impressive (and not so tall) "full sun" specimens in the Natchez grove from Google aerials or street-view. It is at the end of a short street called Gastrell Avenue. The really impressive part of the grove isn't quite visible from the satellite pics as it is understorey. It started when a well-known horticulture professional there, who used to have a nursery, many years ago planted some of them at a house on the edge of a ravine/creek (in Mississippi called a 'bayou'). A lush, shady area under a lot of tall trees going down the embankment to the creek, and over the years many, many trees sprouted and spread downhill...and one would have to sort of scale down into the ravine (amidst the poison ivy!) to really get the full effect. Those downslope trees form a wonderful canopy as I remember in that shady, moist environment. I'm sure there are more like this throughout the south, as in the right circumstances they are pretty gregarious. Most of the trunks in Natchez eventually lose their leaf-bases in a moist, shady situation--not so easily in sun--and thus give a slender effect, certainly in proportion to their tall statures after a few years.

Interesting, the grove sounds beautiful. I didn't realize trachycarpus could naturalize in the Southern US until I saw some near the cemetery I mentioned above. Some day soon I'll try to go by there and take some pictures and post them here. 

[Pal Meir]

T fortunei with clean trunks:

[Chester B]

14 hours ago, mnorell said:

Chester, you must be one skinny fellow! I've never seen a Trachycarpus fortunei trunk that I would say is anywhere as wide as a person...but I've never been to Oregon either and I know trees grow pretty robustly there 

And Gray, you can only see the less impressive (and not so tall) "full sun" specimens in the Natchez grove from Google aerials or street-view. It is at the end of a short street called Gastrell Avenue. The really impressive part of the grove isn't quite visible from the satellite pics as it is understorey. It started when a well-known horticulture professional there, who used to have a nursery, many years ago planted some of them at a house on the edge of a ravine/creek (in Mississippi called a 'bayou'). A lush, shady area under a lot of tall trees going down the embankment to the creek, and over the years many, many trees sprouted and spread downhill...and one would have to sort of scale down into the ravine (amidst the poison ivy!) to really get the full effect. Those downslope trees form a wonderful canopy as I remember in that shady, moist environment. I'm sure there are more like this throughout the south, as in the right circumstances they are pretty gregarious. Most of the trunks in Natchez eventually lose their leaf-bases in a moist, shady situation--not so easily in sun--and thus give a slender effect, certainly in proportion to their tall statures after a few years.

I looked it up.  From what you can see quite a few palms!  It's got me thinking, I have a small pond/catchment area that is the overflow from the pond in our HOA that looks to be a similar habitat.  It's mostly surrounded by scrubby Alders so I have a couple hundred Trachycarpus seedlings and I think this might be a good home for at least 50 of them.  I'm on the board of directors so if anyone asks me what I'm doing I'll tell them "community improvements".

[mnorell]

I know they have naturalized in Switzerland as well, so I think you have a good chance of starting a small forest, as they are obviously fond of a wide variety of climates. I'm sure they would love that moist habitat!

[Chester B]

I'm actually surprised they're not naturalized here as there are literally thousands of them planted throughout the Portland area. Or at least I'm not aware of any naturalizations.  You do see seedlings popping up all around mature trees though.  1st of April I will start planting and hopefully I will get to see some nice palms in a few years.