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Rickybobby

Global warming my butt

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GottmitAlex
2 hours ago, sipalms said:

Of course not. Just don't tell me to stick to palms. I thought for a minute perhaps you were on the wrong forum.

Hear, hear!

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The7thLegend

The United States also takes up more of the earth's global surface space than most countries.  If you were to calculate CO2 emmissions per square kilometer the US is #37.

 

The List of Countries Ranked by Fossil CO2 Emissions Per Square Kilometer | CareOurEarth

 

I'd post the list but it's rather long.

 

 

 

Edited by The7thLegend
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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, sipalms said:

Thanks for telling me to stick to palms when you have a content count equivalent to the amount of free citizens in China :floor: :interesting:

Also thanks for liking my posts over the years, I noticed and appreciated it. But I'm not prepared to stand by and let the USA, or my country and other western nations get thrown under the proverbial bus about climate emissions. Cheers bud

How noble of you, Simon. I'm sure the American's will appreciate you standing up for them in the face of evil. Just for the record though, I wasn't throwing America under the bus. I was merely stating that they have one of the highest greenhouse emissions per capita and also the highest emissions per capita in the world for any country with a population over 30 million. The average American uses 3 x as much C02 than the average Chinese person. The average Australian uses 4 x as much C02 as the average Chinaman. That is a fact. Or do you refute that?

Relative to population, the USA's C02 output is far worse than China's. It's only because China has 4 x the population that they emit more on an overall scale. It's the same reason why the UK emits far more C02 than Qatar overall, because we have a much bigger population. When in reality Qatar actually has the worst rate of emissions per capita in the entire world and has to do much, much better. Yes, I am calling Qatar out on it. So it is relevant to state these things, showing C02 emissions per capita and assessing it proportionately. I know the truth hurts for some people though. 

Basically we are all partly to blame in this issue and can do better. Saying that China is responsible for 95% of emissions is just ridiculous, especially when it is an American saying it. Talk about hypocrisy. China is probably responsible for about 30% of global emissions across a population of 1.4 billion. The USA is probably responsible for about 15% across a population of just 330 million people. I'm just approximating it, but both countries clearly have terrible records for different reasons. I am not attacking the USA or China so to speak, but it is important to be transparent on the issue instead of burying our heads in the sand over it, or just deflecting the blame elsewhere. 

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UK_Palms
8 minutes ago, The7thLegend said:

The United States also takes up more of the earth's global surface space than most countries.  If you were to calculate CO2 emmissions per square kilometer the US is #37.

 

The List of Countries Ranked by Fossil CO2 Emissions Per Square Kilometer | CareOurEarth

 

I'd post the list but it's rather long.

 

 

 

 

By your logic you will also be excusing China as well then since they are a massive country too with a big population. In reality, China has quite modest emissions per capita, however due to the sheer number of citizens living there, they must clearly reduce their emissions significantly still to bring down the overall output, which is the highest in the world. That would be expected from a country with a population of 1.4 billion though. You need to look at both emissions per capita and then also total emissions for that country too. Both are relevant when assessing this.

Looking at C02 output per capita, the USA is a lot worse than China although it still doesn't make the top 10. Places like Qatar, Bahrain, UAE and Australia are the worst offenders and should be called out 100% for their emissions per capita. Fortunately they have small populations so the total output isn't that high compared to others like China and USA. However the USA does have the 2nd worst total output of emissions, which is significantly worse than China relevant to its population. There is no excusing that. Both China and the USA have terrible emission rates, for slightly different reasons. Both could do much better, although pretty much every country out there could do better. It's not just on China and the USA. 

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sipalms
5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Places like Qatar, Bahrain, UAE and Australia are the worst offenders and should be called out 100% for their emissions per capita.

Okay, Greta.

Did you know if Australia reduced it's carbon emissions to zero (not net zero, but zero), it would make less than 3% difference to global emissions.

Did you take into account that those on your hit list are disproportionately high because they export fossil fuels (and therefore warm homes and buildings and poor folks in places like China).

Did you notice that China's emissions per capita continue to rise exponentially, and they have no intent or care to do anything about it? Compared to the US per Capita which has been working hard to reduce, at the expense of economic growth;

Screenshot_20210906-062731_Chrome.thumb.jpg.2ded030492503c3996e0abf43b6ea05e.jpg

I'm still giggling by your sudden climate change preachiness including condemnation of certain countries, when in many other forums here and elsewhere you're raving on about how great it is that apparently Syagrus will be flourishing in the UK in "Just a few years". I've never heard you express any concern about this anywhere... 

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UK_Palms

@sipalms If you think I am some liberal, left-wing, environmentalist nut job then you are wrong. I can't stand Greta or that Extinction Rebellion group that has been protesting, blocking roads, vandalising stuff and causing problems in London. However, I am just sick of seeing the false narratives put out there to dismiss us from changing our ways, or to deflect the blame on to others. China's C02 emissions may be progressively increasing, which is certainly concerning, but China still only produces 7.4 tons per capita on average. Whereas the US is still producing 15.2 tons per capita on average. So your average American uses more than twice as much C02 as the average Chinese person. So how can China supposedly be 95% responsible for the current greenhouse emissions!? They only produce more in total as a country because they have more people. They actually use less C02 per person than the USA. It's the same reason why the UK produces more total C02 than the absolute worst emitter per capita, Qatar. 

You can't penalise a country for having a larger population, otherwise it looks even worse for the US and big western countries anyway. Including mine. Tiny countries like Kiribati and Monaco would have so much leverage against us. I mean the US military alone consumes more C02 than half of the countries in the world. So it's the C02 emissions per capita that really needs to be scrutinised. Otherwise the gulf countries like Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, etc will go unchallenged, despite being the worst C02 polluters in the world per capita. Qatar especially is the absolute worst for C02 emissions per capita/person at 32 tons. You cannot criticise China or America without calling out Qatar and the gulf states. Australia too. Again though, pretty much every country has to take accountability at this stage. Including my own. Hoping that climate change and global warming isn't real, or just over-exaggerated, isn't fair for the future generations of this planet. I am not preaching to the masses, but I am separating fact from fiction on the whole C02 emissions issue. The truth clearly hurts for some people though.

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UK_Palms

It turns out that both China and the USA each have 3 cities in the top 10 worst for greenhouse gas emissions. America also has 20 cities in the top 100 worst C02 emitters, compared to 28 cities for China in the top 100. However given China's 1.4 billion people vs America's 330 million people, it actually reflects really badly on the USA, since China is going to obviously have more 'big' cities, which will generate more total C02 emissions. To be in proportion with China, you would expect America to have just 7 cities in the top 100 worst for emissions, not 20 cities.

Both Seoul in South Korea and Guangzhou in China have the biggest total carbon footprints by far, but that is in part due to their huge populations. They actually have relatively low per capita rates at 13 and 6 respectively. New York City on the other hand is the 3rd worst in the world for total emissions, however the per capita rate in NYC is 17, much higher than the other two. So again the stats reflect pretty badly on the USA. China comes out looking pretty bad as well in this. Make no mistake. It's clear who the two worst contributors to C02 emissions are.

517675568_Screenshot2021-09-06at00_29_06.thumb.png.77a3028bbf50082ebe5dc1083f68baf8.png

 

Here is map of China's emissions per capita. The bright yellow area to the north is a real area of concern due to the concentration of emissions being released in that area. The vast majority of the country has relatively low emissions though, per capita. It is still an unacceptable level, especially in the north, which the Chinese Communist Party need to address. Of course they won't and I also get that is part of the issue. China is clearly a problem, but let's be transparent about it. 

1195649875_Screenshot2021-09-06at00_16_58.thumb.png.9474d2d9f2a192d59f035e27b0d80e5d.png

 

Here is the USA's emissions per capita map, which is considerably higher and more widespread across the whole country. It is far worse than China per capita. Fact. If China's emissions map looked like this, their total C02 output would be about 3 x higher than it currently is. So if the USA had 1.4 billion citizens like China, they would lead the world in total emissions by far. They are second to China right now in total output, but that is only because China has 4 x more people. Proportionate to population, the USA emits more greenhouse gases.

2087299632_Screenshot2021-09-06at00_14_43.thumb.png.0c3f153419541efffb50cb9802fd0760.png

 

I don't want to hear American's blaming China anymore and saying they are 95% of the problem. Both the USA and China are as bad as each other in the C02 emissions department, for slightly different reasons. Both need to make massive changes still in the years to come. I totally appreciate that America is actually trying to improve it, unlike communist China, but America's C02 emission rate per capita is still more than double China's. I find it mind boggling that a country of 330 million people can release 5-6 billion tons of C02 emissions each year. China may release 11 billion tons a year themselves, but that is against a population of 1.4 billion. It is relevant to mention that, but still an appalling statistic for China too.  

In regards to China and their ruling communist party, they also need to sort out their massive pollution problem in general and to stop dumping plastic in the oceans. China is the worst all-round polluter 100%. Most nations should be rightfully calling them out, although it is a bit hypocritical of American's to blame China when they themselves are the 2nd worst polluters in the world and worse than China per capita. So countless other, smaller, cleaner countries will potentially have to pick up the climate change tab in the years to come because of China and the USA. I'm talking about low lying Pacific islands that may be lost, or people living in the Sahara desert region, where it may become hotter and drier. Largely due to just two countries. 

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UK_Palms

America has by far the biggest gas emission footprint in the world with more than double 2nd place Russia and almost 3 x China's output. All those big cars, trains, planes and also the enormous military guzzling it down no doubt...

183595314_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_33_41.thumb.png.325249895b88801d858cb892faaaa953.png

 

America the worst again for oil emissions too with China in 2nd and India 3rd. I honestly expected China to be the worst in this category now, but it is comfortably America in front. 

1063065065_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_34_40.thumb.png.c2bc7b362daab41cc8e476a95761b356.png

 

USA the worst in the world again for Gas Flaring rates as well. Russia 2nd and Iran 3rd. I did not expect the USA to top the chart for Gas Flaring, since that is essentially burning gas in order to extract more gas from the earth. Quite an aggressive process in terms of the needless emissions being released from it. Soviet countries have historically done a lot of flaring, so I'm surprised to see the USA on top instead of Russia or Iran. I didn't actually realise the USA was quite this bad for greenhouse emissions. 

1651171050_Screenshot2021-09-06at04_04_05.thumb.png.3b69da2ebf2ab09de2bbc08d52d76343.png

 

China is undeniably the absolute worst in the world for coal burning though, which is also arguably the dirtiest fossil fuel. That alone is as bad as the 3 other categories combined that the USA leads in. Although India and USA are 2nd and 3rd in coal outputs here too. India is another one that needs to sort their act out too, although relative to its population (1.2 billion) it is nowhere near as bad as the USA, especially in terms of their per capita rates. China is a massive, massive problem with those ridiculous coal burning rates though.

232414532_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_35_30.thumb.png.cc516bda004233d47e453e31e223ad79.png

 

Total bovine output rates are pretty similar, although China has 4 x the population of the USA and obviously requires more bovine and food in general to feed its people, so America is excessively high again here too. Especially compared to India, Russia and Japan. China actually has a far better Bovine output rate than America, proportionate to its population (1.4 billion vs 330 million). American consumption rates are off the scale as these totals are relevant to population. 

300795460_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_56_14.thumb.png.b33963b6e61a6ae149bdc1f77619b2c5.png

 

It doesn't make great reading if you are Chinese or American. Two serious world polluters who are equally bad when it comes to emissions, but for multiple different reasons. Really shocking stats, especially some of America's ones. We already knew that China was the worst polluter and a massive problem, but America isn't any better ultimately. Hopefully both countries can make drastic changes to cleaner fuel in the near future. I am less optimistic about China doing that though with their awful communist regime. I expect Russia to become progressively worse as well  over time. Russia could be the worst emitter in a few decades, due to the sheer amount of resources it has not used yet. China on the other hand should start running out.

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Jubaea_James760

@UK__Palms, who are these Americans your referring to that said China is 95% of the problem? 

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Jubaea_James760

@UK__Palms, nobody knows America's exact population. Your missing a huge number of illegal immigrants plus how many tourists we have vs other countries. I doubt there's very many people taking trips to China. Still, no doubt according to your analysis We'd be on the top of your list. 

Another thing, we're still free to say what we want in this country, can't say the same for others. If you don't want to hear another word( not supporting your narrative) on the topic why be on this thread? 

 

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UK_Palms

@Jubaea_James760 You seem to insinuate that China is mostly to blame and that 22 of the 25 worst cities for emissions are in China. In reality it is both China and the USA. They both have 3 cities in the top 10 worst for emissions. Per capita rates of emission are far higher in the USA too, compared to China. Yet I routinely see Americans blaming China for CO2 emissions to excuse their own excessive rates. You are suggesting that yourself in your previous comment.
 

On 9/3/2021 at 5:07 AM, Jubaea_James760 said:

As far as " bad choices = consequences " , I think most people on here understand this fully. But for who's bad choices are we paying consequences for? 

According to researchers just 25 cities in the world contribute more the half the global greenhouse emissions in the world. With only 3 of these cities not in China. 

 

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Jubaea_James760
7 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I don't want to hear American's blaming China anymore and saying they are 95% of the problem.

Re-read my post. Nowhere did I say this ^

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Jubaea_James760

Or suggest it.

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sipalms

@UK_Palms have you wrapped up your Queens yet? 

Can we have an end of summer selfie with them?

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UK_Palms

@Jubaea_James760 You didn’t say it exactly, but when you said “for who’s bad choices are we paying for” it’s pretty obvious you are implying that the USA and the rest of the world are paying for China’s emissions. That is certainly true to an extent, however the rest of the world is also paying for the USA’s excessive emissions too. They lead China in gas, oil and flaring emissions and also per capita rates of emissions, which is the important one. That way the gulf states can be held accountable too, 

There seems to be some denial going on in the USA and a general assumption that China is the root cause for global emissions. In reality both countries are as bad as one another in terms of emission rates, for different reasons, which I have highlighted. Proportionate to its population though, America is particularly bad. A lot of countries around the world are going to suffer in years to come because of China and America’s reckless consumption of fossil fuels and extreme C02 output.

I’m sorry if the truth hurts. I really like America as well, whereas I cannot stand communist China, so I am not trying to be biased against America. I will almost always side with America, however on this issue I am just fed up of seeing false narratives put out to excuse America’s own excessive C02 consumption. There is clearly an echo chamber that exists within American society which says “China is worse”. Therefore excusing it’s own terrible emission rates. I think most American’s don’t actually realise how bad their country’s emission rates are either. 

51046B39-717A-4E8A-B406-43DDDE6CBD89.thumb.jpeg.625f667a4f72211f6a3b11755deebf17.jpeg


C699C004-95A3-4C34-8C6E-C14CF477B947.thumb.jpeg.d0bc314966c5fa3f59250a326200ee99.jpeg

 

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UK_Palms
3 hours ago, sipalms said:

@UK_Palms have you wrapped up your Queens yet? 

Can we have an end of summer selfie with them?

I’m thinking I won’t be wrapping my Queens up anytime soon, given that it is currently 29C / 85F in my yard right now. Plus I’m expecting close to 32C / 90F tomorrow. I may still take a Queen selfie though, just for you.

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Teegurr
10 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

America has by far the biggest gas emission footprint in the world with more than double 2nd place Russia and almost 3 x China's output. All those big cars, trains, planes and also the enormous military guzzling it down no doubt...

183595314_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_33_41.thumb.png.325249895b88801d858cb892faaaa953.png

 

America the worst again for oil emissions too with China in 2nd and India 3rd. I honestly expected China to be the worst in this category now, but it is comfortably America in front. 

1063065065_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_34_40.thumb.png.c2bc7b362daab41cc8e476a95761b356.png

 

USA the worst in the world again for Gas Flaring rates as well. Russia 2nd and Iran 3rd. I did not expect the USA to top the chart for Gas Flaring, since that is essentially burning gas in order to extract more gas from the earth. Quite an aggressive process in terms of the needless emissions being released from it. Soviet countries have historically done a lot of flaring, so I'm surprised to see the USA on top instead of Russia or Iran. I didn't actually realise the USA was quite this bad for greenhouse emissions. 

1651171050_Screenshot2021-09-06at04_04_05.thumb.png.3b69da2ebf2ab09de2bbc08d52d76343.png

 

China is undeniably the absolute worst in the world for coal burning though, which is also arguably the dirtiest fossil fuel. That alone is as bad as the 3 other categories combined that the USA leads in. Although India and USA are 2nd and 3rd in coal outputs here too. India is another one that needs to sort their act out too, although relative to its population (1.2 billion) it is nowhere near as bad as the USA, especially in terms of their per capita rates. China is a massive, massive problem with those ridiculous coal burning rates though.

232414532_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_35_30.thumb.png.cc516bda004233d47e453e31e223ad79.png

 

Total bovine output rates are pretty similar, although China has 4 x the population of the USA and obviously requires more bovine and food in general to feed its people, so America is excessively high again here too. Especially compared to India, Russia and Japan. China actually has a far better Bovine output rate than America, proportionate to its population (1.4 billion vs 330 million). American consumption rates are off the scale as these totals are relevant to population. 

300795460_Screenshot2021-09-06at03_56_14.thumb.png.b33963b6e61a6ae149bdc1f77619b2c5.png

 

It doesn't make great reading if you are Chinese or American. Two serious world polluters who are equally bad when it comes to emissions, but for multiple different reasons. Really shocking stats, especially some of America's ones. We already knew that China was the worst polluter and a massive problem, but America isn't any better ultimately. Hopefully both countries can make drastic changes to cleaner fuel in the near future. I am less optimistic about China doing that though with their awful communist regime. I expect Russia to become progressively worse as well  over time. Russia could be the worst emitter in a few decades, due to the sheer amount of resources it has not used yet. China on the other hand should start running out.

Thanks for the stats. One thing I would like to add is that it's mostly large corporations outputting this CO2, and since the US has so many, this is the primary cause of its inflated numbers. Now, I'm not excusing these corporations, just clarifying US citizens aren't really to blame. With that being said, I want to get out of here.

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sipalms
10 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I may still take a Queen selfie though, just for you.

Go ahead and make my day!

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ahosey01
On 9/5/2021 at 5:29 PM, UK_Palms said:

It turns out that both China and the USA each have 3 cities in the top 10 worst for greenhouse gas emissions. America also has 20 cities in the top 100 worst C02 emitters, compared to 28 cities for China in the top 100. However given China's 1.4 billion people vs America's 330 million people, it actually reflects really badly on the USA, since China is going to obviously have more 'big' cities, which will generate more total C02 emissions. To be in proportion with China, you would expect America to have just 7 cities in the top 100 worst for emissions, not 20 cities.

Both Seoul in South Korea and Guangzhou in China have the biggest total carbon footprints by far, but that is in part due to their huge populations. They actually have relatively low per capita rates at 13 and 6 respectively. New York City on the other hand is the 3rd worst in the world for total emissions, however the per capita rate in NYC is 17, much higher than the other two. So again the stats reflect pretty badly on the USA. China comes out looking pretty bad as well in this. Make no mistake. It's clear who the two worst contributors to C02 emissions are.

517675568_Screenshot2021-09-06at00_29_06.thumb.png.77a3028bbf50082ebe5dc1083f68baf8.png

 

Here is map of China's emissions per capita. The bright yellow area to the north is a real area of concern due to the concentration of emissions being released in that area. The vast majority of the country has relatively low emissions though, per capita. It is still an unacceptable level, especially in the north, which the Chinese Communist Party need to address. Of course they won't and I also get that is part of the issue. China is clearly a problem, but let's be transparent about it. 

1195649875_Screenshot2021-09-06at00_16_58.thumb.png.9474d2d9f2a192d59f035e27b0d80e5d.png

 

Here is the USA's emissions per capita map, which is considerably higher and more widespread across the whole country. It is far worse than China per capita. Fact. If China's emissions map looked like this, their total C02 output would be about 3 x higher than it currently is. So if the USA had 1.4 billion citizens like China, they would lead the world in total emissions by far. They are second to China right now in total output, but that is only because China has 4 x more people. Proportionate to population, the USA emits more greenhouse gases.

2087299632_Screenshot2021-09-06at00_14_43.thumb.png.0c3f153419541efffb50cb9802fd0760.png

 

I don't want to hear American's blaming China anymore and saying they are 95% of the problem. Both the USA and China are as bad as each other in the C02 emissions department, for slightly different reasons. Both need to make massive changes still in the years to come. I totally appreciate that America is actually trying to improve it, unlike communist China, but America's C02 emission rate per capita is still more than double China's. I find it mind boggling that a country of 330 million people can release 5-6 billion tons of C02 emissions each year. China may release 11 billion tons a year themselves, but that is against a population of 1.4 billion. It is relevant to mention that, but still an appalling statistic for China too.  

In regards to China and their ruling communist party, they also need to sort out their massive pollution problem in general and to stop dumping plastic in the oceans. China is the worst all-round polluter 100%. Most nations should be rightfully calling them out, although it is a bit hypocritical of American's to blame China when they themselves are the 2nd worst polluters in the world and worse than China per capita. So countless other, smaller, cleaner countries will potentially have to pick up the climate change tab in the years to come because of China and the USA. I'm talking about low lying Pacific islands that may be lost, or people living in the Sahara desert region, where it may become hotter and drier. Largely due to just two countries. 

Not to dip my toes in controversy, but in fairness this is a strange map, because the deepest concentration appears to be in Northern Michigan / Wisconsin and almost nobody lives up there - and many drive snowmobiles half the winter.  Would think the real highest per-capita concentration would be northwest North Dakota.

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UK_Palms

@ahosey01 Could it be that there are a higher concentration of factories, farms, mines, oilfields, logging camps etc in that region? Or perhaps the citizens in that region burn more fuel for warmth during the long, cold winter? I notice other cold winter places like Denver and Salt Lake City have very high per capita rates too. Anchorage also has one of the highest in the US. Total C02 output in places like northern Michigan isn't necessarily high, it just means that the fewer people that do live there have very large carbon footprints. Higher than the national average. 

I suppose big city's generally have a relatively low per capita footprint, since a lot of people use public transport and don't have to commute very far. Not many own cars. The citizens tend to be more liberal and eco-friendly too. But due to the sheer number of people living in a big city the total output is going to obviously be massive, despite the lower per capita rate. Hence why it is best to use per capita rates when assessing the severity of the issue in a country. Otherwise you are penalising a country or city for having a large population, when in theory they could be quite eco-friendly, or have far lower rates than other countries with smaller populations.

Here's a map of the total carbon footprint across the USA. Not surprisingly, the areas with the highest total emissions are the biggest cities such as NYC, Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Dallas, San Francisco etc. That would be expected for big cities due to the population and doesn't reflect per capita rates. So those northern regions don't actually emit that much in the grand scheme of things, but the people that do live there seem to emit far more than the national average, unlike in places like NYC or Chicago, which just have high emissions due to the high population living in that region.

573719569_Screenshot2021-09-07at20_30_16.thumb.png.f96056abaea116bc045eb0a69b9c0a53.png

 

Qatar is by far the worst country in the world for C02 emissions, followed by the other gulf states like Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc. It's hard to believe just how much gas the average Bahrain or Qatari citizen burns through. Their total output is relatively low due to them having small populations, but the per capita rates for those countries is an absolute disgrace. Kuwait as well in regards to their ridiculous oil emissions. I'm really surprised at just how much coal Australia burns through as well per capita. Scott Morrison has some explaining to do.

It's pointless calling out China and America if these other countries aren't held to account for their emissions too. You can clearly see who the worst countries are per capita and it certainly isn't China. Although China, South Africa and Australia all have serious problems with the amount of coal that they burn, which is the dirtiest fossil fuel. Australia has no excuse because they are a rich, developed nation, so they can definitely do better. Whereas it can certainly be argued that people in China and South Africa are poorer with less access to cleaner fuels.

170923140_Screenshot2021-09-07at23_33_58.thumb.png.ba0dee657177f4d34e3235697f05d365.png

 

I suppose us Brit's kicked it all off with the industrial revolution back in the Georgian Era. 200 years ago we were pretty much the only country burning fossil fuels (coal at the time) for power and Britain was responsible for 98% of the world's emissions. We were almost single handedly responsible for all emissions between 1750 - 1850 as the main global superpower. 

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Per capita rates back then were a fraction of what they are now though. Britain is still the 5th worst C02 polluter for total emissions since 1750 though, so we have to take a large portion of the blame too, as does Russia who are the 2nd worst since 1750. Today the UK has a population of 70 million and is responsible for just 1% of global emissions currently. The USA has a population of 330 million and is responsible for 15%. China has 1.4 billion and is responsible for 30% of global emissions. It is worrying how China is increasing it's C02 output, while other countries like the USA are slowly lowering there's, to America's credit, however the USA's per capita rates are still far higher than China's and total output since 1750 does not look good on the USA...

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Assuming man-made climate change isn't fake, or just exaggerated by scientists and elitists (it could well be), then the USA and China are going to be directly responsible for the effects in poorer African or south American countries that have hardly any carbon footprint and may be more prone to the effects of storms, flooding, droughts, heatwaves etc. Madagascar is currently experiencing the first ever climate change induced famine, supposedly. 1-2 million people are starving to death because the rain has stopped there, so they cannot grow crops anymore. Some parts haven't had any rain for 4 years now. Perhaps that isn't due to man-made climate change, however there is a very high probability that it is due to it...

 

Due to the drought on land, the people are having to depend on the sea, which is also just as barren as the land now due to climate change and subsequent coral bleaching...

 

This is really alarming to see just how much sea levels have actually risen in only a few decades. You only have to watch the first 6 minutes of this video to see. That is all. 

 

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The7thLegend

@UK__Palmsproblem is your analysis of the US teeters on political, something I'm trying to avoid.  As hinted to in my earlier post, we produce because we can.  UK and other countries are much smaller.  However the European Union as a whole is VERY guilty of CO2 emmissions and I can site the statistics to show this but you can easily find these on your own since you posted so many.  Now...... think about what some of our (the US) CO2 emmissions go to.  Again, trying not to get political but look at all the world peace initiatives, immigrants, exports, foreign aid, etc the US produces "per capita" compared to other countries.  This is MUCH more than any other country AND our emmissions are coming down.  Perhaps it would be best the US bail out of ALL foreign affairs and let all other countries deal with the problems on their own, then they'll have to use their OWN resources and produce.  Food for thought.  

 

Now look, I'm not saying we don't have some irresponsible shleps and corporations polluting but you have to keep in my mind the big picture.  We also have more land mass and so forest management is big... but littering our oceans with plastic and trash, killing wildlife and warming our oceans further is easily something that can be avoided by ALL countries... world peace is another thing.

 

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sipalms

@UK_Palms I don't even have time to consider trying to start a response to your entire latest essay above. But I need to clarify a point above, do these figures include;

a) the total production of the countries fossil fuels (e.g. does it include the millions of tonnes of coal that Australia mines and exports? Or the oil and gas that Qatar and Kuwait export?) Or is it solely the domestic consumption? Because Australia for example, is a warm country, with very little need for coal heating, it also has abundant solar and wind energy.

b) the emissions associated with the production and mining of the above? E.g., the huge amount of gas emitted with oil well burnouts/burnoff/pressure release, or the refining process?

If it's both or either of the above, then your analysis is total BS and not worth the proverbial paper it's written on. Especially the sanctimony in relation to the UK lol.

For a crude (excuse the pun) analogy, It's like blaming the drug dealer for someone's OD.... 

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sandgroper
1 hour ago, sipalms said:

@UK_Palms I don't even have time to consider trying to start a response to your entire latest essay above. But I need to clarify a point above, do these figures include;

a) the total production of the countries fossil fuels (e.g. does it include the millions of tonnes of coal that Australia mines and exports? Or the oil and gas that Qatar and Kuwait export?) Or is it solely the domestic consumption? Because Australia for example, is a warm country, with very little need for coal heating, it also has abundant solar and wind energy.

b) the emissions associated with the production and mining of the above? E.g., the huge amount of gas emitted with oil well burnouts/burnoff/pressure release, or the refining process?

If it's both or either of the above, then your analysis is total BS and not worth the proverbial paper it's written on. Especially the sanctimony in relation to the UK lol.

For a crude (excuse the pun) analogy, It's like blaming the drug dealer for someone's OD.... 

Well put.  Agriculture and mining produce a considerable amount of C02 emissions however if country's like Australia didn't have the resources to produce and export these commodities to country's like the UK that can't can't feed themselves they'd all have to grow poor looking, cold damaged, munted tomatoes for a feed. 

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sipalms
37 minutes ago, sandgroper said:

country's like the UK that can't can't feed themselves they'd all have to grow poor looking, cold damaged, munted tomatoes for a feed. 

:floor:

Let alone when someone in the UK tucks into a nice lamb rack or beef tenderloin from AU or NZ, they should consider the all farts that that animal did just to feed their greedy mouth, because there's no land and not enough sun to make a good go of meat production in their own backyard!!

Damn those Aussies and their emissions that bought me this meal that I can't produce! Damn those awful kiwis for their grotty diesel tractors, that trimmed those grapevines and made me this stunning bottle of Sauvignon Blanc wine, because we don't have a hope of producing a drinkable drop in this cloudy damp country!

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UK_Palms

@sipalms What a convoluted response. We aren’t talking about methane emissions coming out of a cows rear end, or minuscule emissions from wine production. We are talking about heavy-duty emissions from combusting coal, oil, gas etc. You can try and deflect from the real issue all you like, but that is all the more the reason that I have had to expose the reality of global emissions. Everyone wants to blame China, and they are obviously a problem don’t get me wrong, but in reality the Gulf states, the USA and Australia are far worse offenders per capita, relevant to population. Irrespective of imports/exports these countries still emit a massive amount of emissions relevant to their population and then try to excuse their actions by blaming China. Fact. 

I wasn’t being sanctimonious either. My country is the 5th worst for C02 emissions, historically speaking. I was acknowledging that the UK has been a massive part of the problem as well, and still is part of the issue. The fact of the matter is though that European countries have reduced their C02 output significantly and have far lower per capita rates than some of those other countries I have listed, such as the Gulf countries, the USA and Australia. We are just talking about C02 emissions though, nothing more, so let’s not make it personal, or make out that I am attacking a country in general because that is not the case. All countries have some responsibility in improving the current situation, not just the worst offenders. But it is important to bring some clarity and reality into perspective, instead of just blaming China for most of it, since that is the easiest and most convenient option for most people nowadays. 

Also, I want to make it clear that no single citizen is to blame for these C02 issues, it is on the governments who have allowed it to happen for so long, or have refused to implement cleaner energy solutions, or have left it too late. Wider society is to blame across multiple generations, to a degree, but no single individual, whether from Qatar, USA or China is accountable. It is a collective issue for the world and one that starts from the top. The governments in the Gulf countries, China, USA and Australia need to do better though, period. It’s the poorer countries, in Africa especially, with less relief and infrastructure that will suffer the most from any potential climate change and they have barely any carbon footprint either. It seems you would prefer to overlook this though and excuse the excessive C02 emissions of the worst offending countries. 

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sipalms
14 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@sipalms What a convoluted response.

HAHAHAHAHAHHA LOL LOL LOL :floor:

You have mentioned 'convoluted' three times in this debate! New favourite word?

For the record your word count in your posts on this page only 3,802 words. 

My word count is 461.

Tell me who's convoluted.

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UK_Palms
5 hours ago, sipalms said:

HAHAHAHAHAHHA LOL LOL LOL :floor:

You have mentioned 'convoluted' three times in this debate! New favourite word?

For the record your word count in your posts on this page only 3,802 words. 

My word count is 461.

Tell me who's convoluted.

Convoluted in the sense that you are trying to divert and deflect from the main issue regarding excessively high C02 rates, especially per capita. You were implying that wine and beef exports to the UK are as much of a problem as the ridiculous amounts of gas, oil and coal emissions that are literally being pumped out into the atmosphere. In reality both beef and wine make up a tiny fraction of the emissions compared to those other incredibly pollutive fossil fuels. You can filibuster all you like and make jokes about the UK, but I am clarifying the actual proportion of emissions, relevant to country and population. It isn’t about politics or bias, it is about facts. And it is clearly a very hard pill for some people to swallow.

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Jimhardy

Yawn...........

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bubba

What if global warming is caused by natural forces that have caused climate change to occur over endless epochs of the earth’s history? 

https://townhall.com/columnists/justinhaskins/2017/10/03/reasons-why-climate-alarmism-and-the-fear-it-is-meant-to-generate-is-unjustified-n2389772

 

Is it not mindful to rely on a fundamental proven truth before we are hurllurked into taking action that has no bearing on a phenomena? Why does mankind constantly overvalue our importance on earth? Why are we always running from one in emergency to the next in today’s culture?

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UK_Palms

I agree the world has gone nuts now. While I was highlighting the actual amounts of C02 released, I have never been totally sold on the idea of climate change and I feel that we have no idea how much of it, if any, is actually human driven. Clearly the climate has naturally warmed and cooled over thousands of years, which it will continue to do. The question is how much of the current warming is due to us humans? Having said that, reducing our C02 emissions and waste/plastic usage can only be a good thing for the environment though.

Unfortunately we now have a new wave of climate change protestors here in the UK. On Tuesday I was over an hour late for work because of the stupid 'insulate Britain' protestors blocking the roads. They're mostly a bunch of far-left, self-righteous, elderly anarchists who just want to cause as much disruption as possible in the name of 'climate change'. They basically want the government to insulate all homes to reduce energy consumption, but ultimately it is all about protesting climate change. Two years ago they were protesting under the name of 'Extinction Rebellion'. Now it's 'insulate Britain'. Absolute morons. One of their tactics is to glue their hands to the road so they can't be moved. Never seen anything so ridiculous.

 

Best way to deal with these people, just drag them and throw them to the curb...

 

 

Absolute disgrace...

 

 

Pathetic on so many levels...

 

 

These f*ckers are even given instructions to block ambulances from getting past and to not move out the way. You actually see a paramedic dragging protestors off the street...

 

People have had enough of these woke eco-warrior idiots after weeks of protests...

 

 

Glueing your hands to a busy highway is the stupidest thing ever in the history of stupid ideas... and what a waste of police time and resources. 

 

 

I have never seen such immature protesting. 60 year old men crawling around on all fours on the street to disrupt traffic and to stop people getting to work...

 

 

Pretty sure all that paint on the road amounts to vandalism. Bit ironic given that they are supposedly 'eco-warriors'. Lock their asses up for a year and they wont do it anymore. 

 

 

Absolute cretans...

 

 

These eco-warriors are crazy, woke idiots...

 

Retired doctor says the earth will run out of oxygen in 2-3 years as the oceans will die. Sums up these people...

 

 

These people are total morons. At least the cops have become a bit more heavy handed in recent days with these "climate emergency" people...

 

 

This idiot is the ringleader of this pathetic climate change mob...

 

This seems to be a western problem. These climate protestors would never get away with this kind of behaviour in Russia or China. They would get beaten and thrown in jail.

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Silas_Sancona
15 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I agree the world has gone nuts now. While I was highlighting the actual amounts of C02 released, I have never been totally sold on the idea of climate change and I feel that we have no idea how much of it, if any, is actually human driven. Clearly the climate has naturally warmed and cooled over thousands of years, which it will continue to do. The question is how much of the current warming is due to us humans? Having said that, reducing our C02 emissions and waste/plastic usage can only be a good thing for the environment though.

Unfortunately we now have a new wave of climate change protestors here in the UK. On Tuesday I was over an hour late for work because of the stupid 'insulate Britain' protestors blocking the roads. They're mostly a bunch of far-left, self-righteous, elderly anarchists who just want to cause as much disruption as possible in the name of 'climate change'. They basically want the government to insulate all homes to reduce energy consumption, but ultimately it is all about protesting climate change. Two years ago they were protesting under the name of 'Extinction Rebellion'. Now it's 'insulate Britain'. Absolute morons. One of their tactics is to glue their hands to the road so they can't be moved. Never seen anything so ridiculous.

 

Best way to deal with these people, just drag them and throw them to the curb...

 

 

Absolute disgrace...

 

 

Pathetic on so many levels...

 

 

These f*ckers are even given instructions to block ambulances from getting past and to not move out the way. You actually see a paramedic dragging protestors off the street...

 

People have had enough of these woke eco-warrior idiots after weeks of protests...

 

 

Glueing your hands to a busy highway is the stupidest thing ever in the history of stupid ideas... and what a waste of police time and resources. 

 

 

I have never seen such immature protesting. 60 year old men crawling around on all fours on the street to disrupt traffic and to stop people getting to work...

 

 

Pretty sure all that paint on the road amounts to vandalism. Bit ironic given that they are supposedly 'eco-warriors'. Lock their asses up for a year and they wont do it anymore. 

 

 

Absolute cretans...

 

 

These eco-warriors are crazy, woke idiots...

 

Retired doctor says the earth will run out of oxygen in 2-3 years as the oceans will die. Sums up these people...

 

 

These people are total morons. At least the cops have become a bit more heavy handed in recent days with these "climate emergency" people...

 

 

This idiot is the ringleader of this pathetic climate change mob...

 

This seems to be a western problem. These climate protestors would never get away with this kind of behaviour in Russia or China. They would get beaten and thrown in jail.

For sum' folks,  Ignorance is bliss i guess..  If that is really what you / others with a similar frame of mind believe,  i'm sure there is plenty of places in both countries to move to, that are perfect for such beliefs..  Rest of the world will continue to evolve, and do better.. 

So much hate, over people standing up for solutions to help curb energy consumption ( ...or any other issue that isn't self - serving )??  When did thinking like the worst of human kind,  from either place,  become something anyone would want to model??   Forget standing up for the environment,    That   is  the exact definition of crazy.  imho:wacko:

 

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UK_Palms
12 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

For sum' folks,  Ignorance is bliss i guess..  If that is really what you / others with a similar frame of mind believe,  i'm sure there is plenty of places in both countries to move to, that are perfect for such beliefs..  Rest of the world will continue to evolve, and do better.. 

So much hate, over people standing up for solutions to help curb energy consumption ( ...or any other issue that isn't self - serving )??  When did thinking like the worst of human kind,  from either place,  become something anyone would want to model??   Forget standing up for the environment,    That   is  the exact definition of crazy.  imho:wacko:
 

I have been pretty critical of energy consumption rates and emissions in general, however there is a limit to how people go about tackling it. I mean this is utterly ridiculous. Blocking up the streets and stopping people getting to work to earn a living, or stopping kids from getting to school, or preventing ambulances from passing through is totally unacceptable. What right do they have to block the roads like that? If one of your parents was in an ambulance being rushed to hospital and these guys block up the street, are you okay with that?

Also the most ironic thing about it all is that people are sat in traffic, with their engines still running, but going nowhere due to these protestors. So it's kind of counter productive to their cause. I also think it is damaging to their cause in the way that other people who care about climate change and the environment, like myself, are just going to get angry over this and push back against them. I genuinely think it has had a negative impact on the way people view climate change and their tolerance to protests over it. Like people have had enough of them blocking roads or droning on about the climate emergency, myself included.

In fact one of the main ringleaders is married to a business executive who earns £150,000 a year and owns 6 cars. Another member went on an expensive road trip around Europe 2 years ago using a diesel camper van. Another protestor has been exposed for having several businesses with terrible emission rates. So a lot of these people don't even practice what they preach, yet they want to tell us how we should live our lives. They just want to protest and cause disruption because this seems to be the cool thing to do on the 'left' these days. I can tell you that these protests have not gone down well in the UK. I didn't want to upload the violent videos, but fights have broken and regular every day folk have just had enough of these idiots blocking the roads. How will that possibly help fight climate change!? 

Here we see the leader of Insulate Britain, Liam Norton, defending his protest after a stroke victim was left stuck in traffic for 2 hours and he then compares himself to Winston Churchill...

 

What a complete and utter idiot...

 

Well said by this interviewer, especially on calling out China, however he's giving the USA a free pass here...

 

This is the Extinction Rebellion guy who set up 'Insulate Britain' and appointed Liam Norton, saying protestors should not move for ambulances with dying patients. Unbelievable.

 

These people are sanctimonious prats...

 

Not Boris Johnson's biggest fan but he says it how it is here... enough is enough.

 

So you agree with this level of stupidity and eco-terrorism from these climate activists...? @Silas_Sancona Would you want this flash mob protesting on the streets in Phoenix, stopping you from getting to work or preventing ambulances from taking sick patients to hospital? Legit question. 

Edited by UK_Palms

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Silas_Sancona
44 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

 

So you agree with this level of stupidity and eco-terrorism from these climate activists...? @Silas_Sancona Would you want this flash mob protesting on the streets in Phoenix, stopping you from getting to work or preventing ambulances from taking sick patients to hospital? Legit question. 

Legit, yes..

I'll put it like this.... and allow others ( who it may not already be obvious to.. ) to read the Tea Leaves..

If it wasn't for not being able to tolerate the heat here,  i'd have been on the front lines -protest wise- Last summer, ..both here,  and in Washington..  Or out in California, joining some family friends from Australia who were also on the protest lines..  same w/ protesting Mining developments, Oil pipelines,  X # of other social / justice / environmental issues in dire need of scorched earth reform..

If i had kids, they too would have been on the front lines ..so they can see what and why changes are needed / why it is necessary not to be the person sitting back and staying silent when bad things are occurring.  Same with a Girlfriend /  Wife.. if i decide to marry.. ( Kind of an out dated goal in life, ...the way in which it has been viewed for generations anyway.  Don't need a piece of paper to show that you love someone..  imo )

Would skip work too..  And encourage my employees to join in, if they choose ..with pay.

Like my Grandfather / other trustworthy role models through my life have said, " We did not fight .." the good fight " to run and hide when duty calls.. We do not join the battle with the bad side either "   Standing up for something isn't always pretty, ..or popular ..among the un-popular..  Always stand bravely in the face of adversity, and help others who might fear being so brave, find their confidence to stand up for what is right ..and benefits all, not just some, not just me.  Let those who might un-friend you, for your bravery   leave ..they weren't humans worth much anyway.. "

I may always try to give everyone i cross paths with the benefit of any possible doubt,  but if, when what lies beneath when said coat is removed,  is nothing but clear,  undeniable disappointment,  truth is all that is shared, so matter how crystal clear to the person.  Truth doesn't hurt,  some people just weren't taught to accept it.

When a storm moves in, i run into it ..and enjoy the show.. Thankful to respect and understand / continue getting to know forces that are far bigger than me..  Come across potentially dangerous critters while out and about, enjoy and are thankful for the gift of their presence too..

At my last job, i essentially told my boss to " shove it " after they tried to make me / the rest of our staff work extra hours, unpaid.. in 110F heat, after my co-workers and i had already worked 8 / 8+ hours, in 110F heat,   ..All this after i'd already had to miss work from suffering heats stroke a few weeks earlier..  All this to help complete something, that could have been completed the next morning.. ( in reality, nothing really needed to be done to complete this leg in that project.. Was all " busy work " )  Had no other job lined up either.. No worries..  Will do it again, if necessary..  Not a useful idiot, .. Those are the kind of people that employers like this enjoy exploiting / abusing..

In the past,  made it pretty clear, without a word eluding to,  to another employer  that if what was occurring there at that time didn't cease,  lawyers ..among more revealing things, might be called upon..

In a nutshell, i might disappoint some ( which is perfectly fine / acceptable ), but i'll work every day to not be a disappointment to myself ..or everything in the world i'm part of .. Again, no " Useful idiot " here.   ..An educated one? maybe??, haha..

Fighting the good fight ain't always pretty,  but is necessary.  No Worries.  ..Onward, upward -only  :)

-N

 

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PALM MOD

We have been deleting topics regarding Global Warming and/or Climate Change for a long time now - since they usually, if not always, become political, controversial, and repetitive. This one has slipped through the cracks for a while now. However, instead of deleting it, I am going to close it - but leave it so that it can be read and/or referred to as an illustration as to why we don't like to entertain these discussions here.

Nothing is solved, nobody's mind is changed. And I'm sure no one wants selective censorship of certain comments and  opinions while trying to keep things in accordance with PT policy (no politics, no controversy). Or as what now takes place on other social media platforms - deleting comments determined to be "misinformation," with what remains amounting to the slanted "truth" of those making these determinations.

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