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Dartolution

Wilt Stop on Queen Palm?

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Tropicdoc
On 11/30/2019 at 9:36 PM, Dartolution said:

@Jeff985 that's exactly why I suspect overheating instead of freeze damage. 

I sprayed 2 applications on the leafs, and while the temps were cool/cold and overcast they appeared great, green, glossy, and erect. 

We had the 2 nights of 21F and 27F, whereby I wrapped the crap out of her. She came out of it looking unscathed, and has so since last week when we had temps in the low and mid 70s and bright and sunny. 

I still believe this is due to the inability to transpire and cool the leaf due to the wilt stop coating the entire surface of the leaf so thick. Basically cooking it from the inside out. 

I thought the stomata to transpire were on the underside of the leaf

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Dartolution
21 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

I thought the stomata to transpire were on the underside of the leaf

@Tropicdoc You're correct. All of the leaf was however sprayed, undersides included, as well as the petiole and base. 

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JLM

I live in Pensacola, FL and i have 2 queen palms, they are both young and havent grown a trunk yet. My smallest one has taken on some moderate to severe frost damage in the past couple of weeks. This last freeze we had here which was earlier this week, i had them covered. All i used was a sheet and some christmas lights, which worked very very well, but it had already taken on some damage and it looks very poor. There is still some green, but it appears that most of fronds have turned brown. I have also fertilized in the past 6 hours to help ensure its ready for winter nutrient wise, hoping this helps. I should be able to post a picture tomorrow morning to show you what it looks like, and maybe some advice on how to recover this dude, also my tallest one is mostly green and is more frost tolerant, but still has damage to the biggest fronds with some possible nutrient deficiencies, seems like potassium or magnesium or both. Also fertilized 6 hours ago. Thanks!

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GottmitAlex
49 minutes ago, JLM said:

I live in Pensacola, FL and i have 2 queen palms, they are both young and havent grown a trunk yet. My smallest one has taken on some moderate to severe frost damage in the past couple of weeks. This last freeze we had here which was earlier this week, i had them covered. All i used was a sheet and some christmas lights, which worked very very well, but it had already taken on some damage and it looks very poor. There is still some green, but it appears that most of fronds have turned brown. I have also fertilized in the past 6 hours to help ensure its ready for winter nutrient wise, hoping this helps. I should be able to post a picture tomorrow morning to show you what it looks like, and maybe some advice on how to recover this dude, also my tallest one is mostly green and is more frost tolerant, but still has damage to the biggest fronds with some possible nutrient deficiencies, seems like potassium or magnesium or both. Also fertilized 6 hours ago. Thanks!

What are your lows. Wilt pruf on palns helps against dehydration. But not against snow/sleet/freeze. For that, you have to protect the palm.

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Estlander
1 hour ago, JLM said:

I live in Pensacola, FL and i have 2 queen palms, they are both young and havent grown a trunk yet. My smallest one has taken on some moderate to severe frost damage in the past couple of weeks. This last freeze we had here which was earlier this week, i had them covered. All i used was a sheet and some christmas lights, which worked very very well, but it had already taken on some damage and it looks very poor. There is still some green, but it appears that most of fronds have turned brown. I have also fertilized in the past 6 hours to help ensure its ready for winter nutrient wise, hoping this helps. I should be able to post a picture tomorrow morning to show you what it looks like, and maybe some advice on how to recover this dude, also my tallest one is mostly green and is more frost tolerant, but still has damage to the biggest fronds with some possible nutrient deficiencies, seems like potassium or magnesium or both. Also fertilized 6 hours ago. Thanks!

Queens usually start showing damage in the very low 20’s. Pensacola hasn’t dropped anywhere near that yet this year. Very surprised yours are showing severe damage already. 
My young and recently planted Queen showed absolutely no damage after a night of icy rain at 27F, followed by another night around 22F back in January of 2018. 
In the same winter both New Orleans and Houston dropped to 19F and reportedly about half of their Queens survived too. 

Oh, and you definitely don’t wanna fertilize in the winter. Fertilizer forces the palm into growth. Actively growing palms get damaged easier. 

Edited by Estlander

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Estlander

Also, Welcome to the forum. Glad to see another member from around here.  I’m in Destin.

Edited by Estlander

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JLM
6 hours ago, Estlander said:

Queens usually start showing damage in the very low 20’s. Pensacola hasn’t dropped anywhere near that yet this year. Very surprised yours are showing severe damage already. 
My young and recently planted Queen showed absolutely no damage after a night of icy rain at 27F, followed by another night around 22F back in January of 2018. 
In the same winter both New Orleans and Houston dropped to 19F and reportedly about half of their Queens survived too. 

Oh, and you definitely don’t wanna fertilize in the winter. Fertilizer forces the palm into growth. Actively growing palms get damaged easier.

The fertilizer i used was Suniland 6-1-8, i think it needs to be 13-3-13. Mostly to try to help with dificiency problems. As you can tell i dont have very much experience with queen palms. Surprised they have lasted this long in what we have had so far. This queen is very young and was planted directly after we got it from Lowe's, both of them looked great in the pot, but then we had drought problems that started causing browning on my biggest one. It hasnt recovered because it dropped cold not too long after the drought completely ended. I tried to keep it watered, watering around the base and out 2 feet from the base, didnt seem to work very well. One reason might be shock because it was getting watered greatly then it turned of dry. 

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JLM

The first two is my biggest queen, and the last two are my smallest queen.

20191208_084447.jpg

20191208_084408.jpg

20191208_084238.jpg

20191208_084246.jpg

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Dartolution
10 hours ago, JLM said:

I live in Pensacola, FL and i have 2 queen palms, they are both young and havent grown a trunk yet. My smallest one has taken on some moderate to severe frost damage in the past couple of weeks. This last freeze we had here which was earlier this week, i had them covered. All i used was a sheet and some christmas lights, which worked very very well, but it had already taken on some damage and it looks very poor. There is still some green, but it appears that most of fronds have turned brown. I have also fertilized in the past 6 hours to help ensure its ready for winter nutrient wise, hoping this helps. I should be able to post a picture tomorrow morning to show you what it looks like, and maybe some advice on how to recover this dude, also my tallest one is mostly green and is more frost tolerant, but still has damage to the biggest fronds with some possible nutrient deficiencies, seems like potassium or magnesium or both. Also fertilized 6 hours ago. Thanks!

@JLM Mine appears to be about the same size as yours. Like what has been mentioned before, I wouldn't fertilize at this time of year. When you say your last freeze, what were your temperatures? Im curious. Also, about how long have they been planted in the ground? Did Lowes have them under shade cloth?

 

 

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Estlander
2 hours ago, JLM said:

The fertilizer i used was Suniland 6-1-8, i think it needs to be 13-3-13. Mostly to try to help with dificiency problems. As you can tell i dont have very much experience with queen palms. Surprised they have lasted this long in what we have had so far. This queen is very young and was planted directly after we got it from Lowe's, both of them looked great in the pot, but then we had drought problems that started causing browning on my biggest one. It hasnt recovered because it dropped cold not too long after the drought completely ended. I tried to keep it watered, watering around the base and out 2 feet from the base, didnt seem to work very well. One reason might be shock because it was getting watered greatly then it turned of dry. 

Still not sure it’s cold damage as it simply hasn’t gotten cold enough yet for such damage to occur, and especially so with protection. 

My Queen was the same size back in January 2018. The only protection mine saw was a towel around the lower half of the palm. Fronds were completely exposed. The next morning after we had that night with icy rain, I actually picked ice out from the crown of it, lol.

Yes, it barely rained all summer here as well, but if you gave it water every now and then and also mulched it, it should be good on water. 
So, all this damage happened right after those two brief dips into barely freezing weather? 
What kind of Christmas lights did you use? Anything but the smallest ones can seriously burn the fronds. 
 

One of the best fertilizers for palms is Palmgain 8 2 12. Everyone here, including me, have had very good results with it. 
You can find it at Home Depot. Lowes doesn’t have it. 

Edited by Estlander

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Estlander

We’ve dropped to freezing just once this year so far here on the coast. Had a low of 31F one morning. 
Here’s my Queen now. It’s about 20ft. tall. 

183E2B10-FECA-4245-945F-EC1D0ECDD831.jpeg

13106074-0BB6-4BF1-8B3D-76A0AF751FD5.jpeg

Edited by Estlander
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JLM
10 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@JLM Mine appears to be about the same size as yours. Like what has been mentioned before, I wouldn't fertilize at this time of year. When you say your last freeze, what were your temperatures? Im curious. Also, about how long have they been planted in the ground? Did Lowes have them under shade cloth?

 

 

My temperatures have been back and forth, we have lows getting down into the lower 30s or upper 20s for atleast one night for the past three weeks. Other than that, the highs usually balance out at around 70 degrees, lows in the upper 50s to lower 60s. Today has been very wet, off and on rain all day. The only reason i fertilized yesterday was so it wouldnt die through the winter, it looks like its having nutrient problems. Also, how do i stop moisture from building on the inside of the bag i put on top of the tree, the only reason i use a bag and a sheet is because its so tall the sheet can only go so far. Do you have a recommendation on how i can stop that. I also dont know if it was under a shade cloth, i didnt buy them, some relatives did and brought them straight from Lowes to home. They should have been but im not very sure. They were planted in mid September, then we had a drought, it was hot and dry for a period. It was well kept during that period, extended watering everyday. The smallest didnt start turning brown until it turned off cold, and when we have frost here, we have frost to the point where it looks like there is snow on the roof. 

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JLM
10 hours ago, Estlander said:

Still not sure it’s cold damage as it simply hasn’t gotten cold enough yet for such damage to occur, and especially so with protection. 

My Queen was the same size back in January 2018. The only protection mine saw was a towel around the lower half of the palm. Fronds were completely exposed. The next morning after we had that night with icy rain, I actually picked ice out from the crown of it, lol.

Yes, it barely rained all summer here as well, but if you gave it water every now and then and also mulched it, it should be good on water. 
So, all this damage happened right after those two brief dips into barely freezing weather? 
What kind of Christmas lights did you use? Anything but the smallest ones can seriously burn the fronds. 
 

One of the best fertilizers for palms is Palmgain 8 2 12. Everyone here, including me, have had very good results with it. 
You can find it at Home Depot. Lowes doesn’t have it. 

Had to have happened in the cold we have had, my smallest was fully green until it turned cold, my biggest has some brown in small spots before, but after the cold set in, more brown appeared. The christmas lights i use are multicolor mini lights on both of them. Works great. Havent seen any areas of heat damage. This is the first winter they will go through, they may be shocked, especially the smallest, being so young. If it isnt cold then i have no idea what could be wrong.

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Estlander
1 hour ago, JLM said:

Had to have happened in the cold we have had, my smallest was fully green until it turned cold, my biggest has some brown in small spots before, but after the cold set in, more brown appeared. The christmas lights i use are multicolor mini lights on both of them. Works great. Havent seen any areas of heat damage. This is the first winter they will go through, they may be shocked, especially the smallest, being so young. If it isnt cold then i have no idea what could be wrong.

Hmmmm.... very strange indeed. Maybe you got a Queen with extremely weak genes as far as cold tolerance. But even then one night in the upper 20’s and another at 31 or so is too soon for such damage to appear. 
Also, not saying this is what you did, but putting a plastic bag with no ventilation openings over a plant is a very bad idea, as is any plastic directly touching the fronds. 
If low 20’s, or freezing weather with rain in general, are not forecasted then simply putting a sheet over a palm for frost protection is enough. You can also put up beach umbrellas over them as canopy this winter when they’re still small. 
I actually also planted my Queen in September(2017), less than four months before the freeze of January 2018. 
That winter my area experienced quite a few nights between 32-27F and one night around 23-22F. Mine wasn’t the least bit shocked or damaged through that. The same with other Queens around town. I only saw one Queen that took damage that winter, but that too quickly recovered. 

By the amount of frost you said you get over there, are you somewhere in the northern part of town near I-10?  


 

 

Edited by Estlander

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JLM
15 hours ago, Estlander said:

Hmmmm.... very strange indeed. Maybe you got a Queen with extremely weak genes as far as cold tolerance. But even then one night in the upper 20’s and another at 31 or so is too soon for such damage to appear. 
Also, not saying this is what you did, but putting a plastic bag with no ventilation openings over a plant is a very bad idea, as is any plastic directly touching the fronds. 
If low 20’s, or freezing weather with rain in general, are not forecasted then simply putting a sheet over a palm for frost protection is enough. You can also put up beach umbrellas over them as canopy this winter when they’re still small. 
I actually also planted my Queen in September(2017), less than four months before the freeze of January 2018. 
That winter my area experienced quite a few nights between 32-27F and one night around 23-22F. Mine wasn’t the least bit shocked or damaged through that. The same with other Queens around town. I only saw one Queen that took damage that winter, but that too quickly recovered. 

By the amount of frost you said you get over there, are you somewhere in the northern part of town near I-10?  


 

 

I am actually in Pace, but Pensacola is the closest known location besides Milton. So yes, way north of I-10. I guess i just got unlucky and received some queens with bad cold genes. I hope it is not anything like rotting, that would be terrible. Hopefully they survive through the winter, i suspect we will have some frozen precip this winter sometime in January. I have also put a plastic bag over it, moisture was a problem. So i need to poke holes in it to vent, or dont use a bag at all?

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Dartolution

I wouldn't use any kind of plastic for multiple reasons. Check out youtube for cold protecting palm trees. There are tons of informative videos that will guide you through several different ways to go about it. 

Plastic is a no-no because it can cause fungus and rot in the crown, and plastic DOES NOT insulate from cold, instead it provides a mode of contact and can actually cause burn instead of prevent it if the leaf is touching it, which may have happened in your case. Fabric, good quality frost cloth (not that cheap crap from the big box stores, and a proper barrier will go a long way along with lights. I am still experimenting and learning myself. :)

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GottmitAlex
11 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

I wouldn't use any kind of plastic for multiple reasons. Check out youtube for cold protecting palm trees. There are tons of informative videos that will guide you through several different ways to go about it. 

Plastic is a no-no because it can cause fungus and rot in the crown, and plastic DOES NOT insulate from cold, instead it provides a mode of contact and can actually cause burn instead of prevent it if the leaf is touching it, which may have happened in your case. Fabric, good quality frost cloth (not that cheap crap from the big box stores, and a proper barrier will go a long way along with lights. I am still experimenting and learning myself. :)

I concur. Unless your tenting with plastic (plastic not touching the fronds) and a supplemental heat source (120/240 watt halogen/incandescent lamp) trained at the soil (heat rises), then no, do not employ plastic as a wrap around for any palm/tree. It's detrimental.

 

 

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Estlander
11 hours ago, JLM said:

I am actually in Pace, but Pensacola is the closest known location besides Milton. So yes, way north of I-10. I guess i just got unlucky and received some queens with bad cold genes. I hope it is not anything like rotting, that would be terrible. Hopefully they survive through the winter, i suspect we will have some frozen precip this winter sometime in January. I have also put a plastic bag over it, moisture was a problem. So i need to poke holes in it to vent, or dont use a bag at all?

If you had plastic touching the fronds, then that’s what probably caused the damage, and not bad genes.  Plastic simply amplified the damage. 
I don’t think Queens even exist that take such damage in the very upper 20’s, bad genes or not.

You can use plastic over frost cloth, but remove it first thing in early morning before the sun comes up. 
 

Edited by Estlander

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Allen
8 hours ago, Estlander said:

If you had plastic touching the fronds, then that’s what probably caused the damage, and not bad genes.  Plastic simply amplified the damage. 
I don’t think Queens even exist that take such damage in the very upper 20’s, bad genes or not.

You can use plastic over frost cloth, but remove it first thing in early morning before the sun comes up. 
 

Agree with this.  Although plastic can be used in cooler areas if done in a way to not touch fronds and be vented properly OR used on a one night basis.  I've had my palms in plastic huts for 3 months with no issues.  

 

These huts have a large vented space under the back that can't be seen in this pic and have blackout material over the plastic on the 'sun' side.  They are left for 2-3 months like this with no issues

IMG_0696.JPG

 

 

IMG_1208.JPG

Edited by Allen
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Estlander
8 hours ago, Estlander said:

You can use plastic over frost cloth, but remove it first thing in early morning before the sun comes up. 
 it’s not such a go

I misspoke a little here. The plastic meeds to be removed soon after sunup, not before, as it’s always the coldest at dawn. 

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Estlander

JLM, you should check out a Mule palm. Your life would be so much easier with those guys. It’s a hybrid between a Queen and Butia/Pindo. Also 5F more cold hardier than a Queen and looks kinda like a Coconut. 

Queens grow too fast. By next winter you would have hard time protecting yours. 

Here’s one of my Mules. 

5CF3885E-F402-44AC-B2DF-C07CE6846899.jpeg

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JLM
6 hours ago, Estlander said:

JLM, you should check out a Mule palm. Your life would be so much easier with those guys. It’s a hybrid between a Queen and Butia/Pindo. Also 5F more cold hardier than a Queen and looks kinda like a Coconut. 

Queens grow too fast. By next winter you would have hard time protecting yours. 

Here’s one of my Mules. 

5CF3885E-F402-44AC-B2DF-C07CE6846899.jpeg

Yes, i have considered a mule palm, but i am also considering doing an expiriment during the spring. I have a big green egg, and the base has cracked, so i might use that base as a "pot" to grow a baby queen palm. I would be able to take it in and out as needed. I have also examined other queens in my neighborhood and they are still green, so it is the bag most definetly. I will expiriment a new method probably next week before it gets cold again on covering it. Before i do that, i have a question. Would a zip tie cause wounds in the trunk of the tree, if it will then i will not do that. What i will try to do is cut small holes in the corners of sheet and pull the sheet down as far as possible without bending the fronds, then running a zip tie through the corners of the sheet and securing the sheet onto the trunk. I dont have materials to build a wooden contraption around so it doesnt have contact to the sheet. I also cant go to Lowes for a while either, wish i could but cant. So hopefully this would work.

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Estlander
1 hour ago, JLM said:

Before i do that, i have a question. Would a zip tie cause wounds in the trunk of the tree, if it will then i will not do that. What i will try to do is cut small holes in the corners of sheet and pull the sheet down as far as possible without bending the fronds, then running a zip tie through the corners of the sheet and securing the sheet onto the trunk.

If you use a zip tie, then leave a little bit of space between the trunk and the zip tie......or just use rope instead. 

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JLM

 

1 hour ago, Estlander said:

If you use a zip tie, then leave a little bit of space between the trunk and the zip tie......or just use rope instead. 

Ok, i will leave some space in between. Im not going to cover it tonight, yes it will get cold, but frost will not be an issue, frost is my main concern. Btw, i do have a pile of wood in my backyard that isnt being used for anything so i will see what i can do with that. Thanks for the advice and information! I will comment more if i have anymore problems throughout the winter. Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!! (For if i dont comment before that time, i have semester exams next week and a certification exam this week)

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Dartolution

For those of us who did suffer frost damage, or cold damage, do you wait until spring to trim back the dead fronds?

The stems still have green in them, thats why I haven't already. 

 

 

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GottmitAlex
41 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

For those of us who did suffer frost damage, or cold damage, do you wait until spring to trim back the dead fronds?

The stems still have green in them, thats why I haven't already. 

 

 

I suggest to wait it out. The last thing you want us to have an exposed green stem cut during winter.

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Dartolution

Thanks @GottmitAlex kinda what I was thinking as well. I really don't like to cut off a leaf unless its turned brown and the plant has pulled as much as it can back out of it.

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JLM

My biggest queen has not produced any fronds since i have had it. I now have 1 large spear, and 3 very small ones, last week i only had 2 spears, now i have 4. The fertilizer i used a few weeks ago is slow releasing so i dont think it would already have an affect on it. I also have 2 existing fronds that are browning at the base, one of them has already started drooping. Luckily it is not supposed to be cold for atleast a few weeks so it will have time to grow out.

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Dartolution

I've noticed that the winter growth seems pale colored and is more droopy than in the summer for some reason. 

There is still new leaf emerging on mine, but no other spear in the center coming in after it that I can tell. 

 

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JLM
10 hours ago, Dartolution said:

I've noticed that the winter growth seems pale colored and is more droopy than in the summer for some reason. 

There is still new leaf emerging on mine, but no other spear in the center coming in after it that I can tell. 

 

Yes the largest spear is a pale light green, the others are just light green. These other two just emerged the other day aswell, probably when it was wrapped up because i had no clue of them until yesterday. I have been checking on the largest spear which is getting pretty tall. I might be able to get pictures Monday, as this weekend has been a total washout so far. I think what has stunted the largest one is the fact that it has some brown on the rop of it, and has been there for a while. The spears look mostly healthy to me other than some brown spots, but it is something i will be keeping track of throughout my winter break.

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JLM

I have a quick question, my small queen, in some pictures above, is not having black spot appear in the brown areas. It looks like a banana that has been sitting on the counter for a little while. I might be able to get pictures of this here soon. I hope its not a disease or anything.

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JLM

Here they are.

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Dartolution

This is what 2 nights at 21F back in November did... Oh the carnage!

I protected it with frost cloth but no supplemental heating other than plumbing heat tape which was clearly not enough. 

The good news is the last (newest) frond still is green, though pale from winter. 

 

QueenPalm24DEC2019.jpg

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JLM
2 minutes ago, Dartolution said:

This is what 2 nights at 21F back in November did... Oh the carnage!

I protected it with frost cloth but no supplemental heating other than plumbing heat tape which was clearly not enough. 

The good news is the last (newest) frond still is green, though pale from winter. 

 

QueenPalm24DEC2019.jpg

That is good that it is still green, my biggest spear opens up a little more each day. I expect it to be fully open by mid January providing we dont have anymore freezes, which it looks like we will though sadly.

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Dartolution

@JLM My lesson learned was that when I wrap it in frost cloth, I need to use a thermacube and C9 lights as well. A heat tape is not enough. 

I've since purchased a thermacube and 25ft string of C9's and am prepared for January. 

 

I would suggest you do the same if you expect temperatures in the 20's. 

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JLM
1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

@JLM My lesson learned was that when I wrap it in frost cloth, I need to use a thermacube and C9 lights as well. A heat tape is not enough. 

I've since purchased a thermacube and 25ft string of C9's and am prepared for January. 

 

I would suggest you do the same if you expect temperatures in the 20's. 

This last cold snap we just had, all i did was wrapped it with mini lights and sheets, worked well. I think that is what helped my spears because of the heat.

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Dartolution

Oh man on man did we have a bad storm that came through yesterday here. 

The state had several fatalities and wind gusts up to 70mph. My area received wind gusts around 40-50mph according to weather underground. 

There were around 90K people without power, and trees down in every county statewide, including my area where several pines fell over roadways. 

 

My queen palm was ripped to shreds and I mean bad! 

I tried to lay it over but Ive never seen wind like that here before. 

As a result there was only 1 frond left standing, and that night the wind took it too. 

This is the result. You can see where I went ahead and removed the broken fronds.

This has not been a good year for this queen :(

Do you think it will recover from this abuse?

 

QueenPalm12JAN2020.jpg

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Allen

Probably will be tough to keep it alive outside.   I bring my potted palms inside during winter if there are any issues.  Lots of damage for a palm that should take wind

A7C6EEA3-79DF-4336-847C-1C92683E384F.jpeg

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Dartolution

@Allen We had severe storms move through, however I agree. 

Upon inspection today I found that there was crown rot setting in, which explains why that new frond broke. 

I chopped off about 4 inches down from the break point and applied a copper based fungicide to the top of the palm and in the leaf bases. 

Im not sure if it will recover or not. In the mean time, I am trying to source a 'litoralis' or 'santa catarina' queen. If anyone knows where I can get one (legit one) let me know. 

 

In the meantime, Im going to keep trying to nurse this one back to health. 

When it had all its leaves it was over 14 ft tall. I could not bring it it unfortunately. 

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JLM
1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

@Allen We had severe storms move through, however I agree. 

Upon inspection today I found that there was crown rot setting in, which explains why that new frond broke. 

I chopped off about 4 inches down from the break point and applied a copper based fungicide to the top of the palm and in the leaf bases. 

Im not sure if it will recover or not. In the mean time, I am trying to source a 'litoralis' or 'santa catarina' queen. If anyone knows where I can get one (legit one) let me know. 

 

In the meantime, Im going to keep trying to nurse this one back to health. 

When it had all its leaves it was over 14 ft tall. I could not bring it it unfortunately. 

We had storms here aswell, the wind got rough for a bit, i thought my biggest queen was going to snap but it held up very well. My spear has opened up more but was delayed by an unexpected frost. 

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