Sabinaria observations

[JohnLight]

Hello and good morning!

     Has anyone actually grown Sabinaria from seed? I went with some larger cones as I wasn’t sure how far the tap root was going to go down. The seed was planted 1” from the top of these cones which measure 10” in depth. All the seeds planted had a tap root of approx 3” at the time of planting. I haven’t seen anything pop up in roughly 2 1/2 months. Today I decided to take a peak at the bottom of the cones and the seeds seem to be doing very well! Looks as though the tap root is beginning to come through the bottom of the cones. That’s roughly 9” of tap root and I don’t know when it’s going to stop. Still nothing at the surface but it’s good to know they are still growing! If anyone has any further experience feel free to share! Here are a few pics...

[Pal Meir]

It is only the seed petiole which is going so deep, but the seedling does not have any roots like tap roots. When I had received a seedling in a 20cm deep pot (1st pic) from @Kai I immediately repotted it (2nd pic) because it was planted too deep. The new pot was only 12cm high (3rd pic):

 

Two years later when I gave the seedling back to @Kai it was repotted into a Ø14.8xH17.4cm pot:

 

 

[JohnLight]

What would be your recommendation on these?

[Pal Meir]

14 minutes ago, JohnLight said:

What would be your recommendation on these?

Cut open the pot and have a look at the root system. Be careful not to break the thicker roots or hurt their tips!

[JohnLight]

1 hour ago, Pal Meir said:

Cut open the pot and have a look at the root system. Be careful not to break the thicker roots or hurt their tips!

If I cut open the Tubes I have to be ready to repot them. The seed petiole has already grown so much that I’m likely going to have to put them into 3g pots which is way to big.... what are your thoughts?

[Pal Meir]

3 minutes ago, JohnLight said:

If I cut open the Tubes I have to be ready to repot them. The seed petiole has already grown so much that I’m likely going to have to put them into 3g pots which is way to big.... what are your thoughts?

The seed petiole is flexible, but don’t break it! So you don’t need a big pot. — Without seeing how it looks inside your pot I can’t recommend anything.

[JohnLight]

Today I had some extra time so I dug down around the seed petioles. I found one with a leaf that may have never emerged if I didn’t go digging. I’m thinking I may need to repot all of these into smaller containers, specifically not tubes. Thoughts?

[Pal Meir]

18 hours ago, JohnLight said:

Today I had some extra time so I dug down around the seed petioles. I found one with a leaf that may have never emerged if I didn’t go digging. I’m thinking I may need to repot all of these into smaller containers, specifically not tubes. Thoughts?

Leave that seedling as it is now, wait with repotting until it has grown its eophyll and part of 2nd leaf and will look like on my 1st photo (when I got the seedling from Kai).

[JANAIY]

Any updates on this topic? 
How is your Sabinaria doing now? 

[JohnLight]

They are doing great. 1 leaf at the present time with great roots!

[JohnLight]

I ran into another issue on ones I put in the smaller precut tubes, this is a second batch that doesn’t have any leafs yet. I would have figured the seed petioles would have curled around the bottom or something along those lines but I found this...so as far as fixing the large tube issue...looks like I created another. The seed petioles are at least 3 times as thick as the first batch.

[JohnLight]

I’m not exactly sure if this is even an issue yet to be honest. I’ll have to get a shot of the roots that grow off of the seed petioles. I don’t even know what’s normal at this point. As long as everything works out, I’m a happy camper! This is a learning process and I’ve had help from many people on this subject. If you have squirrels, I’d be very careful as they have run off with some of my seeds.

[JohnLight]

Today was interesting, I found some of the Sabinaria have already begun to throw a leaf below the liner completely! I'm curious if I'm the only one with this issue or why all of my seeds have done this. They certainly like a deeper container to start and I think If I were to do this again I would leave them be in the taller liner. I'm pretty sure if I would have left them alone they would have been fine. On another note, they don't start growing roots from what I can tell until the leaf begins to emerge and turn green. Pics to follow.

[JohnLight]

[NOT A TA]

3 hours ago, JohnLight said:

Today was interesting, I found some of the Sabinaria have already begun to throw a leaf below the liner completely!

That IS interesting! Please keep us informed.

[JANAIY]

Are you sure this to be the leaf?  I know Sabinaria seeds are remote germinators. This means the main root needs to be in the soil and than the little part what is growing  will grow upward until it reaches the top soil and than from there a new leaf will form. I don’t know the correct words how each part is called but I am pretty sure  that I am correct. 

I would plant it back with lots of care since the roots are very sensitive so it can grow up to the top soil.  
The problem you have is that the root grew down too much and came out and than obviously  did not find the way back. The pot might not be deep enough. 

Go check remote germination in this forum 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by JANAIY

[JANAIY]

This is my Sabinaria Magnifica

Edited January 31, 2020 by JANAIY

[JohnLight]

This is my second batch of seed so I feel I have a pretty good amout of experience with them now. I’m positive that’s the leaf, the leaf is normally encased in the seed petiole. The seed petiole will swell and open up. If not well watered they can get stiff and you will have to manually open them up. It’s actually odd to me that the one in the picture is not in case in the seed petiole. 

[JANAIY]

And they are all doing this? Maybe because the pot is too deep what allows the tap root to grow deep down. The little Sabinaria came from Hawaii and the pot it is in is not deep at all. I don't see yet a root in the bottom but hope it won't occur before March. 

 

[JohnLight]

My longer tubes at around 11” all had a very small (less than 1/2”) seed petiole come out of the bottom. This second batch was put in liners that were cut down and the same resulted only longer. You aren’t going to have to worry, once the leaf comes out they begin to root. Mine aren’t shooting roots out of the bottom, that’s the seed petiole. Other people maybe bag germinating to the point where they see a leaf and then planting. Your picture is similar to mine after I have dug mine up. For that reason is why I am saying maybe others bag germ as otherwise unless someone dug them up and replanted the seed would not be up in the air like that. I did bag germ mine originally but once the seed petiole began to grow I would plant. Next time I may just let them continue to grow until the point they begin to swell so you see where the leaf is going to be and then plant them. This is all a learning experience for me, just interesting observations...

[JANAIY]

I had to repot my 1 leaf Sabinaria since I saw roots coming out of the tall tree pot around 8” deep. I read everything I could find on this species and know about the delicate roots just like Joey’s. You know I tried to plan it out how to approach but hey at the end things really work out how you planned. So my delicate affords and plans ended up in a whole mess. 
Let’s go into details: 

I decided to cut the bottom carefully on 3 edges around the tap root what appeared ending on the tip with some rot. Freaked me out already. I held the bottom in my left hand to avoid shifting the soil out of there. Since the right hand can’t perform cutting the side of the pot I laid it all down and cut carefully the side. Now a new scenario in front of me. All side roots have already reached the sides and started growing down and I cut the sides from down to up (1. mistake). I risked to cut some of those roots and really not sure if I did! 
So how I get the whole Sabinaria with its surrounding soil into the new pot? The soil also seemed a bit too wet for me. I prepared a mixed soil with Espoma potting mix half part of it peat moss, a good handful Leca pebbles (rinsed) and some small lava rocks . I chose a taller tree pot 15” deep and 6” wide. It was not easy but somehow I was able to slide it in and filled the side pockets with the new soil what I prepared humid but not wet. 
Once I was done I saw water running out and it did not stop after 5 minutes. This just scared me and in my mind I started to doubt that this pot and the too wet soil was really a good idea. The rot on the tap root and 2 small side roots at the end had some rot and being still in this too wet soil was definitely not good. 
And here we go with my 2nd repot on my Sabinaria. 
Cutting it out again , this time impossible to catch roots so I was ok. However now same scenario only that now I can’t just slide it in since the 2 Gallon pot is way wider but 10” deep. That’s all I had available. I put a first layer of lava rook and than a layer of Leca pebbles and than my already prepared soil. Now this time I held the tree pot in my open hands and tried to roll the Sabinaria with its soil into my hands. The soil immediately started to open up and half of the soil shifted away exposing all the upper part of the Sabinaria until the first side roots. Those roots were incredibly hard to the touch , I was surprised. I expected to find very soft easy breakable roots. WoW, never saw any roots like it. See pics. 
So I was able to hold the lower part of the soil with roots in my left and decided to mix the old soil with my new soil to disperse the wetness. Than I took off very very carefully step by step the old soil from the lower part and until I had a naked Sabinaria . I than started carefully measuring the height and deep ness it needs to be and started delicately to surround the tap root and upper with the new soil. I put the soil very fluffy without pressing it too strongly and continued trying to making sure every part of the roots was surrounded by the new soil. 
It all worked out pretty good and I really feel ed released and with no doubt that anything there got damaged. A baby would not have felt my hands that’s how carefully I handled it. Unless during the 1st attempt something happened while the soil was shifting everything should be good. 
I reported on Jan 27th in warm weather about 8 days ago. It’s still early to tell but for now she is still looking good.  The only negative sign however is that the  seed ball has lost its resistance by touch and that’s  alarming to me. All my Joey’s and Sabinaria seedlings seed ball has resistance by touch because still connected to the plants life circle. 
Crossing my fingers and will update 

 

[JANAIY]

On 10/14/2019 at 9:32 AM, Pal Meir said:

It is only the seed petiole which is going so deep, but the seedling does not have any roots like tap roots. When I had received a seedling in a 20cm deep pot (1st pic) from @Kai I immediately repotted it (2nd pic) because it was planted too deep. The new pot was only 12cm high (3rd pic):

 

Two years later when I gave the seedling back to @Kai it was repotted into a Ø14.8xH17.4cm pot:

 

Pal Meir , so if you look at my pics above, so that is not a tap root but the seed root? And it does not matter it had some rot on it?
And sorry for all the questions, but I am eager to learn. Why you repotted into a smaller pot? To contain  root growth and general growth in this species similar as it is done with bonsai ? 
Because I put mine in a wider pot but less tall. Was that the wrong decision I made? 
 

Since Sabinaria is close to the same as Joey palm, I received 2 perakensis what were also potted way too deep, more than a 1/4 of the pot deep. I did not changed size of the new pot but I planted them way up where I think they belong. See pics above

Hope I did good

I cut the top part of the old pot

[JohnLight]

Everyone looking great in 1g! Looking back I’d like to do this again and begin with the deep pots and simply leave them alone. 

[JANAIY]

1 hour ago, JohnLight said:

Everyone looking great in 1g! Looking back I’d like to do this again and begin with the deep pots and simply leave them alone. 

 But now with 1 gallon pots they will be fine for yrs to come. Is this picture from now or past year(s)?

[JohnLight]

I just moved them from cut down liners to 1g a few days ago. 

[JANAIY]

Do you know how long it takes to see the 2nd leave coming? Mine is stuck since I got it Dec. , no movement not even after repotting. But already glad it’s still alive, green and hope happy

[JohnLight]

I don’t, this is my first experience growing them.

[Reynevan]

3 hours ago, JohnLight said:

Everyone looking great in 1g! Looking back I’d like to do this again and begin with the deep pots and simply leave them alone. 

This looks very pretty

[realarch]

Good grief John, a Sabinaria forest there. They all look healthy and thriving.

Tim

[John hovancsek]

This one was in a community germination tub and then pulled out and planted like you see because of there growth habits 

[JANAIY]

28 minutes ago, John hovancsek said:

This one was in a community germination tub and then pulled out and planted like you see because of there growth habits 

Why did you planted it that high? Never seen like that. I am curious maybe a better way to accelerate growing process. 
mine arrived from Floribundas potted like that: 

Edited February 17, 2020 by JANAIY

[JANAIY]

I also now found 2 sprouted Silver Joey palm seeds from Hawaii . What I need to do once they arrive? 
preparing coarse fast draining potting mix and than bury the tap root in a pot as long as the tap root leaving the seed on the topsoil like my Sabinaria in the pic I sent previously? 
Any suggestions are welcome

[JohnLight]

26 minutes ago, JANAIY said:

Why did you planted it that high? Never seen like that. I am curious maybe a better way to accelerate growing process. 
mine arrived from Floribundas potted like that: 

Yours is planted higher than you think. The leaf began much lower than you can see. 

[JANAIY]

7 minutes ago, JohnLight said:

Yours is planted higher than you think. The leaf began much lower than you can see. 

Well that’s how I received it from Jeff Marcus Floribunda in Hawaii. Not saying he knows best. But all I have seen so far is how he planted mine. 
Haven’t seen it yet like yours. 
I am trying to use common sense. If a seed germinates in nature it probably falls on the ground and the tap root will grow straight down into the soil and the seed stays on the topsoil.  After that at a certain timeframe it swells  and prepares to send the first spike up until it reaches the topsoil. I believe the taproot can be kept shorter potting it in a 3-4 “ deep pot instead using those deeper tree pots. That way it spikes faster. My 1 leaf Sabinaria was potted in a 8” inch tree pot and yet still waiting to see changes

[JohnLight]

Jeff knows what he is talking about, this thread is simply my observations. As discussed above, they send down a seed petiole and not a tap root. I originally began with 11” pots then cut them down. The pictures show the results. The first leaf begins 5-6” down in my experience. The next time around I will run 11” pots or even longer and leave them alone. By running smaller pots and having the seed hang above the pot like that it will dry out. You will have to keep them moist or manually open the seed petiole as I have had to do in order to let the leaf out or it will simply die. For this reason I will leave them in deeper pots as the soil would have kept them moist and everything could have happen naturally. Everyone is still learning with these guys and again this is simply my experience with them.

[JANAIY]

32 minutes ago, JohnLight said:

Jeff knows what he is talking about, this thread is simply my observations. As discussed above, they send down a seed petiole and not a tap root. I originally began with 11” pots then cut them down. The pictures show the results. The first leaf begins 5-6” down in my experience. The next time around I will run 11” pots or even longer and leave them alone. By running smaller pots and having the seed hang above the pot like that it will dry out. You will have to keep them moist or manually open the seed petiole as I have had to do in order to let the leaf out or it will simply die. For this reason I will leave them in deeper pots as the soil would have kept them moist and everything could have happen naturally. Everyone is still learning with these guys and again this is simply my experience with them.

I love to see people experimenting with new species and I am doing just the same.The seed petiole name I forgot that's why I said tap root., my bad.

Since this is a remote germinator seed the same will be for Joey palms, right? I did not know about the seed should be buried or kept moist or be broken to favour growth of the new leaf. Very interesting and I am glad you are observing. I have 2 silver Joey seeds germinated coming next week. Should I plant them the way you did it as well?

I have also 3 J.altifrons germinated seeds in the pot but with the seed on topsoil half buried. Should I do here the same and break the seed to speed up or bury it under the topsoil?

[JohnLight]

I don’t have any experience with Joey’s at this time so I wouldn’t be the one to ask. 

[JANAIY]

3 hours ago, JohnLight said:

I don’t have any experience with Joey’s at this time so I wouldn’t be the one to ask. 

Thank you John, hope you will continue to update your observations with Sabinaria ! 

[JohnLight]

Second leaf is beginning to push on a few of these!

[Jos Mannaart]

These are doing realy nice!! 

Have Sabbie germinated in 2015.

In my humble opinion they feel better planted to high then to deep. Lost several by planting to deep en keeping to wet in wrong soil. Compared to Joey, Sabinaria realy has no problems with repotting. Even when she is growing you can repot and within one week after that growing continous. Repotting Joey? Please somebody tell me the trick. Have several altifons in one pot germinated last year. Doing great but there comes a time to repot.....