Well this sucks

[Josue Diaz]

My longest living and healthy Dypsis decipiens looks to have just given up the ghost. seemingly overnight too. 

Here's a picture of it a week ago ( pushing out a new spear). 

 

And here it is this morning. I noticed the frond folding up yesterday. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Josue Diaz

[joe_OC]

If the decline was that rapid, I suggest you look for gopher activity in your garden.  Do you have a pic of the palm now?

[Josue Diaz]

Just now, joe_OC said:

If the decline was that rapid, I suggest you look for gopher activity in your garden.  Do you have a pic of the palm now?

The first thing i checked was moisture in the soil. It wasn't dry,  and we just went from 100s to mid80s so i don't think it's lack of water.  I've never had gophers here but that was my thought too! I'm afraid to check though,  hoping the palm isn't entirely dead... the spear doesn't pull. 

(i just uploaded a pic from today)

[Josue Diaz]

[joe_OC]

Damage doesn’t look like gopher.  How long has the palm been in the ground?  Was that the first time it experienced 100 degrees?  

Could just be tender fronds that are just burning in.  Frond damage looks like it came from heat.

 

 

[Matt in OC]

Similar to one of my experiences. Gorgeous one day, gone the next. RIP.

[joe_OC]

2 minutes ago, Matt in OC said:

Similar to one of my experiences. Gorgeous one day, gone the next. RIP.

Didn’t know they could turn that quickly?  Did you ever figure out why?

[Matt in OC]

@joe_OC No, I never figured out what happened. This was early June and it was about a 15 gal size in the ground for a year or two. The only thing I had changed was added a bit of sandy top soil recently. I think I posted on this but can't find it right now. The spear totally dried up and pulled. It was a matter of a day or two. 

[NOT A TA]

17 minutes ago, Matt in OC said:

@joe_OC No, I never figured out what happened. This was early June and it was about a 15 gal size in the ground for a year or two. The only thing I had changed was added a bit of sandy top soil recently. I think I posted on this but can't find it right now. The spear totally dried up and pulled. It was a matter of a day or two. 

Where did the "sandy top soil" come from? Any chance someone had used something like Round Up on that soil? If so it could leach into the root system and take out your plant quickly.

[nachocarl]

I have killed just about every Dypsis I have tried and that includes numerous D. decipiens, any chance this was getting sprayed from a sprinkler or overhead watering?   I found out the hard way that numerous Dypsis generally don't like that.   As a side note I had a beautiful kentia that had been in the ground well over a year and was cranking out fronds like nothing was wrong and then it folded almost over night.  I thought gophers at that point but found zero evidence of them around the root zone.  Sometime the just cark off and you don't know why.

Edited October 11, 2019 by nachocarl

[Matt in OC]

@NOT A TA Nope.

[LJG]

DD is not an easy palm to grow. I have one left out of maybe 5 I planted. There is a reason you don’t see many large ones in SoCal gardens, despite having been planted heavily throughout SoCal for the last 15 or so years. So don’t beat yourself up. 

[Jeff985]

I’ve read they’re really picky about the soil they’re in, but surely that would take longer to kill it. 

[Josue Diaz]

2 hours ago, joe_OC said:

Damage doesn’t look like gopher.  How long has the palm been in the ground?  Was that the first time it experienced 100 degrees?  

Could just be tender fronds that are just burning in.  Frond damage looks like it came from heat.

 

 

It was in the ground 1+ years, and before that, potted for 6 months at my place in a 15 gal pot. And it experienced 100+ degree heat from late May through early Oct, so it wasn't new to the heat. In fact, it pushed out one new leaf and was pushing this new spear all summer long. I haven't moved the soil around it except maybe 2 months ago when I dug about 4 feet away from it to plant a small cereus, but I only dug near the surface.  I would think that if I had damaged the root system then, it would have shown the damage right away, especially given we had 100 degree weather when I dug. I did fertilize all of my palms right around the beginning of September, but I was careful to not fertilize directly around this palm.  The closest palm to this which was fertilized it about 5 feet away and downslope from it. 

2 hours ago, Matt in OC said:

Similar to one of my experiences. Gorgeous one day, gone the next. RIP.

I remember reading about yours! Gorgeous palm if I remember.  

1 hour ago, nachocarl said:

I have killed just about every Dypsis I have tried and that includes numerous D. decipiens, any chance this was getting sprayed from a sprinkler or overhead watering?   I found out the hard way that numerous Dypsis generally don't like that.   As a side note I had a beautiful kentia that had been in the ground well over a year and was cranking out fronds like nothing was wrong and then it folded almost over night.  I thought gophers at that point but found zero evidence of them around the root zone.  Sometime the just cark off and you don't know why.

I water by hand and am careful about not watering overhead or getting too much overhead water in the crown. There's no guarantee water hasn't gone into the crown though. I haven't done anything different and it was so healthy, which is what baffles me. 

1 hour ago, LJG said:

DD is not an easy palm to grow. I have one left out of maybe 5 I planted. There is a reason you don’t see many large ones in SoCal gardens, despite having been planted heavily throughout SoCal for the last 15 or so years. So don’t beat yourself up. 

I contacted Perry in Grover Beach about a replacement already! Now is the perfect time to grab coast-grown specimens since our temps are just about the same. Summer transfers from coastal temps to inland valley temps shock a lot of plants.  I am determined to have one of these grow to maturity in my garden. 

[Palm Tree Jim]

4 hours ago, Matt in OC said:

@joe_OC No, I never figured out what happened. This was early June and it was about a 15 gal size in the ground for a year or two. The only thing I had changed was added a bit of sandy top soil recently. I think I posted on this but can't find it right now. The spear totally dried up and pulled. It was a matter of a day or two. 

Did you examine the plant after removal?
 

If so, how were the roots?

[Palm Tree Jim]

5 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

A rather quick demise of the plant.

As Len indicated, these are not an easy grow for some reason.  

Keep us updated on the status.

[Matt in OC]

23 minutes ago, Palm Tree Jim said:

Did you examine the plant after removal?
 

If so, how were the roots?

Honestly I don't remember. I may have left it in the ground and just decapitated it.

[Hillizard]

9 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

My longest living and healthy Dypsis decipiens looks to have just given up the ghost. seemingly overnight too. 

Here's a picture of it a week ago ( pushing out a new spear). 

 

And here it is this morning. I noticed the frond folding up yesterday. 

Josue: That's sad  to see... and somewhat coincidental. I have one in the sun that's also undergoing a mysterious rapid decline that began a few weeks ago. The other one I planted in the shade is doing fine. And the one I have in a pot that only gets morning sun is doing the best!

[Jim in Los Altos]

Hmm, I find these remarkably easy to grow. I have two that get hit four nights per week with sprinklers that wet the entire palms and get a good dose of granular palm food three times per year. One is in full sun and one is in full shade. They grow equally well. Perhaps it’s a climate thing. I know they like daytime heat but also need a quick cooldown in the evening. Here, even in 90 degree daytime temps, the nights cool to upper 50s and 60s. Every D. desipiens I’ve had planted in client’s yards have survived as well in my area regardless of lots of water or minimal water. I think climate is key with these. 

[Tracy]

3 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Hmm, I find these remarkably easy to grow.

I recall being warned that this species, more than many Dypsis likes really well drained soil.  What type of soil do you have that you are doing so well with them?  If it were temperature differentials alone, I would suspect that Jeff in Modesto would have a climate far more similar to Fresno than to you in Los Altos, yet he grew that beautiful jumbo size one that was just transplanted.   I suspect that these sudden die offs may be more complex than one thing which is what Len seems to allude to when noting that despite being planted abundantly the number of large specimens is low here in California.

Josue's plant's sudden decline is interesting to note given that it appears to be occurring during a season of lowest stress for it.  Josue, what is happening with your overnight temps about now?  With the Santa Ana's I sometimes see my coldest early morning temps with extreme dry.   My low temp 2 nights ago went down to the high 40's under a clear sky with offshore wind, from the low 60's the nights prior and back to high 50's for a low this morning thanks to the return of the marine layer.  Did your overnight temps take a dip that could have been traumatic?

[Jim in Los Altos]

9 hours ago, Tracy said:

I recall being warned that this species, more than many Dypsis likes really well drained soil.  What type of soil do you have that you are doing so well with them?  If it were temperature differentials alone, I would suspect that Jeff in Modesto would have a climate far more similar to Fresno than to you in Los Altos, yet he grew that beautiful jumbo size one that was just transplanted.   I suspect that these sudden die offs may be more complex than one thing which is what Len seems to allude to when noting that despite being planted abundantly the number of large specimens is low here in California.

Josue's plant's sudden decline is interesting to note given that it appears to be occurring during a season of lowest stress for it.  Josue, what is happening with your overnight temps about now?  With the Santa Ana's I sometimes see my coldest early morning temps with extreme dry.   My low temp 2 nights ago went down to the high 40's under a clear sky with offshore wind, from the low 60's the nights prior and back to high 50's for a low this morning thanks to the return of the marine layer.  Did your overnight temps take a dip that could have been traumatic?

I’ve got good ol’ Santa Clara Valley yellow clay here. It’s a very dense clay. It’s about 15” below amended loan. I have water loving Chambeyronia and Archontophoenix near the D. decipiens so the soil is always wet. My older one in full sun has been in that spot since it was a one gallon plant roughly 15 years ago. I feed all my palms fairly heavily too. 

True that Fresno and Modesto are very similar climate wise. Modesto is a few degrees cooler during summer nights on average. My Los Altos climate is cooler in summer, warmer in winter than either. 

D. decipiens has been known to take temperature swings from a mild day to freezing at night without a problem but, that said, there hasent been anything like that recently to explain the loss of Josue’s palm. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Jim in Los Altos

[palmfriend]

Very interesting topic - and I am sorry for this loss, Josue!

I had something in mind yesterday to reply but could not put it in the right words. When I checked

this thread now again I got to say:

19 hours ago, Tracy said:

...I suspect that these sudden die offs may be more complex than one thing which is what Len seems to allude to when noting that despite being planted abundantly the number of large specimens is low here in California.

Josue's plant's sudden decline is interesting to note given that it appears to be occurring during a season of lowest stress for it.  Josue, what is happening with your overnight temps about now?  With the Santa Ana's I sometimes see my coldest early morning temps with extreme dry.   My low temp 2 nights ago went down to the high 40's under a clear sky with offshore wind, from the low 60's the nights prior and back to high 50's for a low this morning thanks to the return of the marine layer.  Did your overnight temps take a dip that could have been traumatic?

...which is excactly what I wanted to state, too. Some sudden shift in temps or the humidity level or simply a missing mineral which might be essential for the plant to go succesfully through the changing seasons - there are a number of reasons which have finally caused a "sudden shut down" of the whole plant after some days of non-noticeable struggling...

I think you got to look deeper at this and Tracy's and Jim's comments are already a very good start!

 

best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

[sonoranfans]

When I grew palms in the desert for 10 years (yes, arizona is a hotter desert I know), water was needed to replace that lost through leaf transpiration in the daytime heat.  I found it difficult at first to start out small palms in direct sun as they are easiest to dessicate.  The biggest stress, even with drought resistant bismarckia was heat, 110F in hot direct sun, and a dry breeze.  Some palms seemed to do well in the hot and dry, like washingtonia filifera, brahea armata, and phoenix dactylifera.  But many small palms needed a little shade net for a year or two and extra care to ensure they were getting a wet cycle.  I did this with a livistona rigida for example, after I saw leaf burn on older leaves when the heat hit that year.  Perhaps a little shade cloth to reduce leaf transpiration and also more water would help while the palm develops a deeper rooting structure.   that granite rock gets a  lot hotter than the air due to passive solar effect.  It can get hot enough to burn feet(110F cant do that). There also can be a lot of salt buildup in soil when those hot granite rocks evaporate water so quickly in summer.   The shade net keeps those rocks closest to the plant cooler.  Salt buildup could be treated with humic acid( a chelator).  I would pm jeff and talk to him about what his palms exposure was(west, east?) and how often he watered and how much.  I remember it was right next to the house so I expect it was clay soil for construction purposes.  Jeff certainly grew his very well in the desert.  Marine influenced coastal california is a different scenario as is los altos.  I do get the impression jeff doted on that palm, it was a prized specimen.

[Josue Diaz]

On 10/11/2019 at 5:38 PM, Hillizard said:

Josue: That's sad  to see... and somewhat coincidental. I have one in the sun that's also undergoing a mysterious rapid decline that began a few weeks ago. The other one I planted in the shade is doing fine. And the one I have in a pot that only gets morning sun is doing the best!

oh man,  this is a tricky palm for sure. Sorry about yours also. hope it pulls through. 

On 10/13/2019 at 6:18 AM, Tracy said:

I recall being warned that this species, more than many Dypsis likes really well drained soil.  What type of soil do you have that you are doing so well with them?  If it were temperature differentials alone, I would suspect that Jeff in Modesto would have a climate far more similar to Fresno than to you in Los Altos, yet he grew that beautiful jumbo size one that was just transplanted.   I suspect that these sudden die offs may be more complex than one thing which is what Len seems to allude to when noting that despite being planted abundantly the number of large specimens is low here in California.

Josue's plant's sudden decline is interesting to note given that it appears to be occurring during a season of lowest stress for it.  Josue, what is happening with your overnight temps about now?  With the Santa Ana's I sometimes see my coldest early morning temps with extreme dry.   My low temp 2 nights ago went down to the high 40's under a clear sky with offshore wind, from the low 60's the nights prior and back to high 50's for a low this morning thanks to the return of the marine layer.  Did your overnight temps take a dip that could have been traumatic?

My soil is very,  very sandy. Much faster draining than Jeff in Modesto. My place is on an ancient alluvial flood plain of the San Joaquin river so there's a lot of sand where I'm at. You could easily dig with your hands when the soil is moist. As far as shifts in temperatures go,  we had just had a sudden cool down at the beginning of October,  accompanied by wind. We went from consistent 100s to mid 80s. i think the decline coincided with this event,  although i can't say for certain this was THE main cause. 

6 hours ago, palmfriend said:

Very interesting topic - and I am sorry for this loss, Josue!

I had something in mind yesterday to reply but could not put it in the right words. When I checked

this thread now again I got to say:

...which is excactly what I wanted to state, too. Some sudden shift in temps or the humidity level or simply a missing mineral which might be essential for the plant to go succesfully through the changing seasons - there are a number of reasons which have finally caused a "sudden shut down" of the whole plant after some days of non-noticeable struggling...

I think you got to look deeper at this and Tracy's and Jim's comments are already a very good start!

 

best regards from Okinawa -

Lars

The palm isn't entirely dead yet,  but i will certainly examine the roots if/ when it falls over. the spear is holding pretty strongly still so there is a tiny bit of hope. 

On 10/13/2019 at 2:24 AM, Jim in Los Altos said:

Hmm, I find these remarkably easy to grow. I have two that get hit four nights per week with sprinklers that wet the entire palms and get a good dose of granular palm food three times per year. One is in full sun and one is in full shade. They grow equally well. Perhaps it’s a climate thing. I know they like daytime heat but also need a quick cooldown in the evening. Here, even in 90 degree daytime temps, the nights cool to upper 50s and 60s. Every D. desipiens I’ve had planted in client’s yards have survived as well in my area regardless of lots of water or minimal water. I think climate is key with these. 

Jim,  what freakin' beauties. Los Altos to Fresno (or Modesto) is comparing apples to oranges though! lol you have a much more stable climate month to month. Not like the crazy swings we get in the valley. 

Mine continues to worsen. There is almost no green left except in the spear. 

I'l have to check with Xiong here in Fresno. he has one or two decipiens of his own. i wonder how his are doing. 

[Hillizard]

FYI, here is a side-by-side comparison of my three little D. decipiens that were all purchased at the same time, approx. the same size, a couple of years ago. Each is growing in the same garden, but under different conditions. I'm going to hold off putting the potted one in the ground in my palm berm until maybe next spring.