Any chance I poisoned myself?

[NOT A TA]

Before I explain , yes I know better, but.....

Most of my plant related activities, studies etc. were up North in  zone 5 so no palmy education till moving south. I was out of latex and long rubber gloves and may have done something stupid.

I was cleaning Adonidia Merrillii seed in buckets of water. Squeezing the seeds out of the fruit and stirring the slimy water/seed mix with my hands to get the slime off the seeds. I spent several hours (5-6?) with my hands submersed in the slime most of the time.

A couple hours later I got delirious, dizzy, sweating, chills, and what not. Passed out & hit the floor. Medics hauled me off in ambulance and I spent most of the week in the hospital. When I'd arrived in the ER I was barely conscious and they kept asking me what year it was, who was president, my name,and so on. My heart rate was 35 and my body temp was 95 I was convulsing hard enough to be bouncing up off the table from being so cold (like an extreme massive shiver) while they kept applying more and more warm blankets on me. Many hours later once stabilized, they moved me to a room and continued with blood & urine tests while putting me on intravenous antibiotics & other precautionary meds. After four days I was feeling better and they had no positive cause for my issues.

I've had similar symptoms occur for various things but never as bad as this week. I had a very bad case of Lyme disease many years ago with similar symptoms and after being "cured" had relapses occasionally which included the symptoms for years but never passed out. They seemed to stop 5-6 years after "cure".  Also, had similar symptoms the day I had a heart attack requiring stent installations. Also, had similar symptoms the day I had Prostate biopsy.  So I didn't think about the seed cleaning till after I'd been released and remembered many years ago also having the same symptoms occur from Nutmeg poisoning three times, each a year apart,  before I figured out it was Nutmeg in eggnog. I refused ambulance the first episode of the Nutmeg poisoning because no health insurance, the DR. I was with was really upset with me for not going to the hospital after she'd called the ambulance.   Anyway,   does anyone know if the Adonidia merrillii fruit slurry could be a poison and cause the problem? My body is not happy with me.....

 

[Hillizard]

18 minutes ago, NOT A TA said:

Before I explain , yes I know better, but.....

Most of my plant related activities, studies etc. were up North in  zone 5 so no palmy education till moving south. I was out of latex and long rubber gloves and may have done something stupid.

I was cleaning Adonidia Merrillii seed in buckets of water. Squeezing the seeds out of the fruit and stirring the slimy water/seed mix with my hands to get the slime off the seeds. I spent several hours (5-6?) with my hands submersed in the slime most of the time.

A couple hours later I got delirious, dizzy, sweating, chills, and what not. Passed out & hit the floor. Medics hauled me off in ambulance and I spent most of the week in the hospital. When I'd arrived in the ER I was barely conscious and they kept asking me what year it was, who was president, my name,and so on. My heart rate was 35 and my body temp was 95 I was convulsing hard enough to be bouncing up off the table from being so cold (like an extreme massive shiver) while they kept applying more and more warm blankets on me. Many hours later once stabilized, they moved me to a room and continued with blood & urine tests while putting me on intravenous antibiotics & other precautionary meds. After four days I was feeling better and they had no positive cause for my issues.

I've had similar symptoms occur for various things but never as bad as this week. I had a very bad case of Lyme disease many years ago with similar symptoms and after being "cured" had relapses occasionally which included the symptoms for years but never passed out. They seemed to stop 5-6 years after "cure".  Also, had similar symptoms the day I had a heart attack requiring stent installations. Also, had similar symptoms the day I had Prostate biopsy.  So I didn't think about the seed cleaning till after I'd been released and remembered many years ago also having the same symptoms occur from Nutmeg poisoning three times, each a year apart,  before I figured out it was Nutmeg in eggnog. I refused ambulance the first episode of the Nutmeg poisoning because no health insurance, the DR. I was with was really upset with me for not going to the hospital after she'd called the ambulance.   Anyway,   does anyone know if the Adonidia merrillii fruit slurry could be a poison and cause the problem? My body is not happy with me.....

 

I did a quick online search and could find nothing about toxicity for this particular species, incl. for cats and dogs! That doesn't mean you might not have an individual sensitivity or allergic reaction to it though, esp. after working with the fruits for several hours. Regardless, glad to know you got medical attention and are recovering! https://looking-at-plants.com/plants_a_-_z/adonidia_merrillii

[GottmitAlex]

John,  to Hell with the palms.

How are you?

Prayers go out

[Silas_Sancona]

8 minutes ago, Hillizard said:

I did a quick online search and could find nothing about toxicity for this particular species, incl. for cats and dogs! That doesn't mean you might not have an individual sensitivity or allergic reaction to it though, esp. after working with the fruits for several hours. Regardless, glad to know you got medical attention and are recovering! https://looking-at-plants.com/plants_a_-_z/adonidia_merrillii

Second this.. Don't recall ever hearing about any outward toxicity issues w/ Adonidia seed. Interesting.

Glad you are ok. By chance, did anyone ( at the hospital, your doctor ) do / order any blood work?  I'd imagine any chemicals that might be toxic in the fruits,/ or you might be quite sensitive to when directly exposed..  would show up somewhere in any blood work, if such exists.. 

[Palmarum]

I've handled Adonidia fruit and seeds for years, ever since I was little with no ill effects nor have I heard of any. I have soaked seed with fruit in water, cut them open, rubbed the fruit off with my fingers and so on. Nada.

Was the slimy mix warm? Could there have been time for bacteria to grow in the mix? Any toxicology in the blood tests?

Ryan

[NOT A TA]

LOTS of blood work day after day! I don't think they would have looked for things other than viral, sugar,  etc. and only thing unusually low was potassium.

I also spent hours online after I got home and remembered about the Nutmeg, searching for anything relating to toxicity of Adonidia fruit and didn't find anything pertaining to humans.

I'm not allergic to anything as a general rule.

[NOT A TA]

5 minutes ago, Palmarum said:

I've handled Adonidia fruit and seeds for years, ever since I was little with no ill effects nor have I heard of any. I have soaked seed with fruit in water, cut them open, rubbed the fruit off with my fingers and so on. Nada.

Was the slimy mix warm? Could there have been time for bacteria to grow in the mix? Any toxicology in the blood tests?

Ryan

I've also done it with no problems in the past although much shorter time periods and immediately washing with dish soap. I'd never heard of anyone having a problem but figured I'd ask. I can only imagine how much the bills will be from this week and would like a reason why.

Yes warm water, still high 80's here maybe 90. There was a batch from previous day I'd started just before dark now that you mention it. I only worked with those seeds maybe an hour and then just left a half full bucket of seed overnight and resumed the following afternoon.

Staff noted in one of the blood tests. Dr's thought it could have been contamination at the blood removal site.

I typically wear gloves for almost all occasions where I'm involved with any chemicals or weird substances, especially if it's going to be for any length of time. Not just plant stuff but all the other things I do.  Some southern plant things I'm aware of like Caryota seed and always err on the safe side.

[Rickybobby]

Glad to hear you are doing fine. I did the same as you with your seeds and I was fine. Who’s to say

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Dang John what an unfortunate turn of events. So for what seemed like a harmles operation to pass on seeds to your fellow palm nuts on PT. Im glad to hear your feeling back to normal. After doing a lil research i found this ; Its fruits are sometimes said to be used as a substitute for the betel nut, in preparing buyo (fruit of Areca catechu, leaves of Piper betle, and lime) for chewing.^[4]

The fact you have a sensitivity to nutmeg , prolly not far fetched something in the A.Merrillii fruit could be similar to the effects on you. It took awhile but the effects soaked in thru your skin. Obviously im no Dr. or scientist haha 

[palmfriend]

First of all, I am glad and relieved that you are on your way to recover!

Over here, A. merrillii is almost weedy, palms of this species are all over the place at 

all stages. I have never heard of any incident or sickness caused by handling with 

those palms or its seeds during last ten years I am living here. There are plants

out here you should not touch or should handle with care and those are well known,

but the Christmas palm was never mentioned, ever. 

I hope it helps (somehow)  -

all the best -

Lars

 

[Really full garden]

Had the palm or seeds been treated with anything prior to you handling them ? Some of the systemic pesticides are incredibly dangerous.

[Kim]

What a horrific story! 

So 5-6 hours of work. Were you outdoors in the hot sun? Did you drink any water while you were working? I'm wondering about dehydration and heat stroke. But I'd think the medical people would have figured that out if that were the cause.

[Kailua_Krish]

Almost sounds like cholinergic poisoning and betel nuts have cholinergic agonists in them, maybe these do too?

[NOT A TA]

3 hours ago, palmfriend said:

I have never heard of any incident or sickness caused by handling with 

those palms or its seeds during last ten years I am living here.

I've been here 15 years and never heard anything either but figured I'd check here since I didn't find much searching online.

 

46 minutes ago, Really full garden said:

Had the palm or seeds been treated with anything prior to you handling them ? Some of the systemic pesticides are incredibly dangerous.

Nothing used on these, they're from my own plants. And yes, pesticides can be very dangerous. My first degree was in Arboriculture at the Stockbridge school of Agriculture and classes on pesticides were required as all students had to pass supervisor license testing to graduate so as mentioned I know better than to work with anything weird bare handed even if I know pesticides aren't involved. Years later, I had two employees who were on a spray crew who got poisoned just by sitting on 55 gallon drums of Sevin that just happened to have condensation on them one morning. Unbeknownst to me they'd been routinely sitting on drums in the morning before their truck left the yard while waiting on other crews that had to leave first so they could get out. That one day there was heavy condensation on the drums which allowed dried spilled insecticide to soak into their pants. Had to send them to regional poison control center. Big commercial landscape maintenance company, I was running the maintenance division at the time.

45 minutes ago, Kim said:

What a horrific story! 

So 5-6 hours of work. Were you outdoors in the hot sun? Did you drink any water while you were working? I'm wondering about dehydration and heat stroke. But I'd think the medical people would have figured that out if that were the cause.

I built my potting bench in the shade and it wasn't real hot that day. I do make sure I drink plenty of fluids alternating types and no carbonated or alcohol. If I remember correctly I had 16 Oz of water, 16 Oz of fresh coconut water (from my palms), 16 Oz of cranberry juice and a cup of coffee while I was messing with the seeds. At the hospital I'd lost a lot of fluid by the time I got into a regular room so they had me on a 100ML/Hr IV drip for three days.

45 minutes ago, krishnaraoji88 said:

Almost sounds like cholinergic poisoning and betel nuts have cholinergic agonists in them, maybe these do too?

^^^ May have a winner here? I threw up the following afternoon while in the hospital regular room. Haven't thrown up in 20+ years and had not had anything to eat since dinner the night before when I'd finished cleaning seed.  I'd never heard of this type of poisoning but will certainly mention it to the internal medicine folks when I see them.

Excerpts from online search.

While onset of symptoms is often within minutes to hours, some symptoms can take weeks to appear. Symptoms can last for days to weeks.

Organophosphate poisoning

Organophosphate poisoning is poisoning due to organophosphates. Organophosphates are used as insecticides, medications, and nerve agents. Symptoms include increased saliva and tear production, diarrhea, vomiting, small pupils, sweating, muscle tremors, and confusion. While onset of symptoms is often within minutes to hours, some symptoms can take weeks to appear. Symptoms can last for days to weeks.

[Merlyn]

I'd second the cholinergic poisoning hypothesis.  Arecoline is an alkaloid in betel nuts and "posesses cholinergic properties and may cause bradycardia."  Bradycardia is abnormally slow heartrate, which can cause some of the other side effects (delirious, sweating, dizziness, etc).  Here's something I ran across:

"Bunga de china ( Adonidia merrillii ) Fourth most commonly used psychoactive substance in the world, chewed regularly by at least 10% of the population, with high prevalence's in South and Southeast Asia. Bunga de china is cultivated throughout the settled areas of the Philippines. First seed analysis was reported to have been performed in 1886 by Bombelon, who isolated a liquid volatile alkaloid given the name arecaine. Fruit flesh on seed contains the alkaloid arecoline with psychoactive properties and chewing produces euphoria, increased alertness, sweating, salivation. The tannin is located almost entirely in the kernel which decreases as the nut ripens. Dried nut is stimulant, euphoriant, astringent, antibacterial, antioxidant, antiseptic, wound healing, antifertility, abortifacient, antiulcer and antihelmintic."

This came from here, though I don't know the accuracy...  https://www.coursehero.com/file/p7r9tv6/One-study-did-indicate-that-the-heartwood-of-Gliricidia-contains-compounds-that/

[NOT A TA]

My discharge paperwork has a whole section on Bradycardia. I had 7 out of 8 of the "Signs & symptoms" of Bradycardia. I'd been on carvedilol and they stopped that immediately when I was in the hospital. The combination was really bad.

36 minutes ago, Merlyn2220 said:

I'd second the cholinergic poisoning hypothesis.

At this point with the additional stuff you found and researching the chemicals myself on the web I think there's a very, very, high probability I did poison myself. The poison combined with Carvedilol and being a smoker took me out of commission.   As Homer would say,   D'oh!

Thank you all who spent time looking up things, considering possibilities, and posting! And, as John Aston would say when playing "Buddy" the judge on Night Court's stepdad "But, I'm feeling MUCH better now!"

[Merlyn]

The side effects of Carvedilol are probably similar to many blood pressure meds, including "positional hypotension."  That's basically you feel okay but if you stand up too fast you get dizzy and pass out and fall down.  If your doc still wants you on a blood pressure medicine, consider one called Edarbi (Azilsartan).  It has the lowest side effects and is the most effective at a low dose out of the "-sartan" group.  My doc prescribed Edarbyclor (Azilsartan + Chlorthalidone) for my marginally high BP.  The actual solution for managing my BP was quitting drinking entirely and taking high-nitrate juice in the AM.  I have a half glass of POM pomegranate juice every morning and my BP is consistently "normal."  So while Edarbi and Edarbyclor worked well, the "natural" remedy of pomegranate juice is 10000x better...

[NOT A TA]

2 hours ago, Merlyn2220 said:

If your doc still wants you on a blood pressure medicine

They've taken me off the blood pressure meds. Only current meds are tamsulosin, atorvastatin (calcium) and a low dose asprin. Haven't drank alcohol in 35+ years. Heart attack was 2 + years ago and they installed a couple stents. Family history of death in 50's due to heart attacks with my dad being the oldest one at 62. I've always been in good shape, not over weight, very active and still ride my BMX bike regularly. Got pulled over by LEO's twice this year with full lights and sirens while sprinting around the neighborhood at night because they thought I looked like a teenager on the little 20" leaving the scene of a crime ahahaha.

I'm going to discuss the cholinergic poisoning with my heart Dr. and admit to being an idiot and likely poisoning myself even though I know better. The doctors at the hospital were all puzzled as to what caused the ordeal.

[NOT A TA]

Update on this. Haven't had any recurring symptoms and I'm back to whats "normal" health for me at this point in my life. Medical bills have exceeded $50,000.00 for my 4 day stay at the hospital, and I haven't gotten them all yet. I've continued to research bradycardia, arecoline, and cholinergic poisoning with the conclusion that , ya I poisoned myself. Sure wish I had health insurance!

Be careful handling weird stuff folks! I'm normally a "Mr. safety" kinda guy but messed up this time.

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Damn 50k ain't that typical of our health system these days. I hope you have no intention of paying even a quarter of that back. Glad your doing better and back to normal. Hopefully you haven't given up on selling seeds =) 

[Jeff985]

Set up a go fund me. If every palm talk member kicks in $3.41 that would cover it. I know that would be unlikely but I’m sure a lot of us would pitch in a few bucks. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 11/28/2019 at 11:05 AM, NOT A TA said:

Update on this. Haven't had any recurring symptoms and I'm back to whats "normal" health for me at this point in my life. Medical bills have exceeded $50,000.00 for my 4 day stay at the hospital, and I haven't gotten them all yet. I've continued to research bradycardia, arecoline, and cholinergic poisoning with the conclusion that , ya I poisoned myself. Sure wish I had health insurance!

Be careful handling weird stuff folks! I'm normally a "Mr. safety" kinda guy but messed up this time.

Glad you’re feeling better. I’m sorry about the bills—they’re bogus. I’ve been collecting tropical fruits here, and your story reminds me that I should use gloves!