Range of royal palms

[RedRabbit]

3 hours ago, The7thLegend said:

Curious what Palmetto's Royals look like.  Maybe someone can post some pictures to compare.

Here are two royals in Palmetto:

 

[RedRabbit]

9 hours ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@RedRabbit Wow that is actually pretty warm for an average extreme low over that period. I am not sure how much warmer the area with those Royal Palm is which is further south down the river on Goodbys Creek but I suppose it could be a little warmer, though it could be a little colder too considering there is not as much water there as at Mayport. Jax Beach could have a warmer low than Mayport but I can’t say for sure if there is any part of town warmer than that. Thanks for sharing that data!

I'm curious if the royals on the St. Johns have been there since before 2003. That 2003 low of 21f in Mayport should have killed any royals in the area. The instances of 25f are dicey too.

Any idea what winter water temps are like for the St. Johns? I know the Atlantic gets cold up there so I'm wondering if the St. Johns actually stays warmer during the winter. If that's the case then the eastern bank of the St. Johns might be the warmest part of Jax. 

[The7thLegend]

8 hours ago, Jeff985 said:

Good enough to make me jealous. 

Very nice!

[The7thLegend]

4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Here are two royals in Palmetto:

 

Wow!  Beautiful palms!

[The7thLegend]

5 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Any idea what winter water temps are like for the St. Johns? I know the Atlantic gets cold up there so I'm wondering if the St. Johns actually stays warmer during the winter. If that's the case then the eastern bank of the St. Johns might be the warmest part of Jax. 

You may be on to something since the Saint Johns current travels backwards and manatees like to huddle in rivers during the cold.

[Robbzilla13]

I’ve seen a nice group of Royals as far north as New Port Richey/Holiday area in West Florida. They seemed to be very mature and in good shape. I’ll snap a pic next time I drive through the area.

[NC_Palms]

On 10/1/2019 at 12:40 AM, RedRabbit said:

They might survive a few years on Jekyll or East Beach on St. Simmons, but I don’t think you’d get a 20 year run like the royals in Jacksonville. 

The Golden Isles have a very good microclimate for Georgia, but based on the data I’ve seen that area is only borderline 9b. If you look at what’s planted there it’s pretty consistent with 9a. I really don’t believe the climate is going to support royals unfortunately. 

If you think about it, Jacksonville is only about 30 miles south of Saint Mary's, Georiga. With that said, I think it makes the possibility of a royal palm surviving in a South Georiga microclimate realistic. 

[RedRabbit]

1 hour ago, NC_Palms said:

If you think about it, Jacksonville is only about 30 miles south of Saint Mary's, Georiga. With that said, I think it makes the possibility of a royal palm surviving in a South Georiga microclimate realistic. 

I don’t think so unfortunately. It’s a miracle they’ve survived in Jax. There’s river no comparable river to the St. John’s in Georgia so I’d totally rule out the possibility of them there. As I said earlier, they could probably live a few years on the Golden Isles but definitely not long term. 

The royals in Jax are an outlier. Betting on an even further outlier isn’t realistic imo. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by RedRabbit

[Robbzilla13]

16 hours ago, The7thLegend said:

Curious what Palmetto's Royals look like.  Maybe someone can post some pictures to compare.

 

[kurt decker]

Red Rabbit, they are an outlier for sure. Pure dumb luck? Genetics? Who knows. They would be good trees to get seed off of, that's for sure. But the Georgia royal palm idea is almost irresistible. Might they survive 20 years? Who knows. I would have thought those Jacksonville trees would die on an average year, much less something like 2010. But they didn't. That's what makes this hobby interesting. The unexplainable.

[Zeeth]

19 hours ago, The7thLegend said:

Curious what Palmetto's Royals look like.  Maybe someone can post some pictures to compare.

Here's my favorite:

[The7thLegend]

Those are huge Zeeth!

[RedRabbit]

7 hours ago, kurt decker said:

Red Rabbit, they are an outlier for sure. Pure dumb luck? Genetics? Who knows. They would be good trees to get seed off of, that's for sure. But the Georgia royal palm idea is almost irresistible. Might they survive 20 years? Who knows. I would have thought those Jacksonville trees would die on an average year, much less something like 2010. But they didn't. That's what makes this hobby interesting. The unexplainable.

I agree, it's really fascinating that these royals have managed to survive in Jax. I remember @Waltshared some pictures on the forum of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana growing on the river in St. Johns county so it seems evident the St. Johns river is creating a great microclimate. 

Regarding Georgia though, here's my old data from the Saint Simons Island Airport:

In 4 out of 15 years it got cold enough to kill a mature royal. East Beach on SSI is probably a little warmer, but even so a royal would be a longshot.  The area I'm at has an average low around 30f and I don't think they're fully hardy here even. 

I'd like to see some Ravenea rivularis in Georgia.  They're very tough for tropical looking palms and they might be able to make it up there. 

5 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Here's my favorite:

Those are my favorite too. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by RedRabbit

[kurt decker]

Okay, there is no St. John's, but you have the Atlantic Ocean. And I'll bet it hovers around 60 degrees in winter. I know you're right. Royals don't grow in Georgia. But they don't grow in Jacksonville either. That's what makes thinking about this so much fun.

[Walt]

On 10/5/2019 at 12:10 AM, RedRabbit said:

I agree, it's really fascinating that these royals have managed to survive in Jax. I remember @Waltshared some pictures on the forum of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana growing on the river in St. Johns county so it seems evident the St. Johns river is creating a great microclimate. 

Regarding Georgia though, here's my old data from the Saint Simons Island Airport:

In 4 out of 15 years it got cold enough to kill a mature royal. East Beach on SSI is probably a little warmer, but even so a royal would be a longshot.  The area I'm at has an average low around 30f and I don't think they're fully hardy here even. 

I'd like to see some Ravenea rivularis in Georgia.  They're very tough for tropical looking palms and they might be able to make it up there. 

Those are my favorite too. 

Yes, I gave a buddy of mine (now deceased) a small A. cunninghamiana. It fit in the trunk of my car.  He planted it on the south side of his house, about 50 feet distance from the east shore of the St. John River. Also, it was planted under high live oak canopy. He told me the palm wasn't even hurt during both horrid months of January and then again December of 2010. I can't put my finger at the moment of the last photos I took of the palm, but as I recall it had maybe 8 feet of clear trunk on it. This was maybe 5-6 years ago. Below is a February 2019 Google street view of my late buddy's house (136 Cypress Drive, East Palatka, Florida). If you look closely at the left roof corner you can see the tall trunk of the A. cunninghamiana palm (can't see fronds). 

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.6833185,-81.6276324,3a,15y,228.25h,91.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdMfs0Ott987lnBBTjUg6ZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[Walt]

Also, the queen palm crown you see over the roof of my buddy's house, I also gave to him the same day as I gave him the A. cunninghamiana palm. It was a silver queen I grew from seed.

 

[RedRabbit]

On 10/6/2019 at 9:46 PM, Walt said:

Yes, I gave a buddy of mine (now deceased) a small A. cunninghamiana. It fit in the trunk of my car.  He planted it on the south side of his house, about 50 feet distance from the east shore of the St. John River. Also, it was planted under high live oak canopy. He told me the palm wasn't even hurt during both horrid months of January and then again December of 2010. I can't put my finger at the moment of the last photos I took of the palm, but as I recall it had maybe 8 feet of clear trunk on it. This was maybe 5-6 years ago. Below is a February 2019 Google street view of my late buddy's house (136 Cypress Drive, East Palatka, Florida). If you look closely at the left roof corner you can see the tall trunk of the A. cunninghamiana palm (can't see fronds). 

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.6833185,-81.6276324,3a,15y,228.25h,91.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdMfs0Ott987lnBBTjUg6ZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Thanks for sharing Walt, I can’t believe how big it has grown since you last posted pics.

[Walt]

15 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Thanks for sharing Walt, I can’t believe how big it has grown since you last posted pics.

I was even surprised my self when I saw how much trunk had developed since I had last seen this palm. I was pleased to see that the Google street view photo has been retaken in 2019.

I just hope the new home owner knows what he/she has, and never removes the palm.  An A. cunninghamina palm that tall in East Palatka, Floridia, is no doubt rare.

[Robbzilla13]

On 10/4/2019 at 10:04 AM, Robbzilla13 said:

I’ve seen a nice group of Royals as far north as New Port Richey/Holiday area in West Florida. They seemed to be very mature and in good shape. I’ll snap a pic next time I drive through the area.

Hwy 54, East of 19. Also, I live near the Suncoast and 54. There are a couple Royals in the neighborhood East of me, seem to be doing well. 

[RedRabbit]

It’s a relatively cool night tonight so we can see how the various microclimates are holding up on Wunderground. Currently in Jacksonville it’s 53-54f around the royals on the St. John’s river. By comparison, Jekyll and St. Simons Islands in GA are 45 and 43f so a good bit colder despite being on the ocean.
 

Ponte Vedra seems to be the warm spot up there. It has a few stations reporting around 57f. That’s not bad, roughly the same as here or Orlando. That’s surely the area to zone push. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by RedRabbit

[kurt decker]

Nice work. If you can, keep gathering data this winter. Interesting stuff

[RedRabbit]

6 hours ago, kurt decker said:

Nice work. If you can, keep gathering data this winter. Interesting stuff

Thanks, will do. When it gets really cold I usually post detailed Wunderground maps showing low temps. It’s good to document this stuff because we don’t have many opportunities to see the nuanced microclimates that exist. 

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

Ones around Pahokee are huge. Some of the largest in the state I assume. A few 70+ foot coconuts around too but seem underplanted compared to the hundreds and hundreds of towering royals.  Few pictures off google here what a microclimate!

[RoystoneaJax]

@RedRabbit Thanks for that data. I have always thought Ponte Vedra would be a great place to zone push too!

[Steve in Florida]

Webcam capture from Hudson, Florida.  There are at least half a dozen homes in the immediate area with large royal palms.

[RedRabbit]

38 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

Webcam capture from Hudson, Florida.  There are at least half a dozen homes in the immediate area with large royal palms.

Nice find! I think Hudson is still 9b, but once you get away from the water that area drops to 9a real quick.

[Steve in Florida]

10 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Nice find! I think Hudson is still 9b, but once you get away from the water that area drops to 9a real quick.

Actually, nearly the entire county except the extreme north-central area east of Shady Hills between 589 and 41 and extending a few miles to the east is zone 9b.  That rural, cold area has a January monthly low that is 3.3 degrees F colder than Hudson's at US-19.  The warmest part of the county which extends from Anclote to Hudson, is approaching zone 10a and it is along the coast extending inland for 1-2 miles.  Tarpon Springs' average January monthly low is only about 1.2 degrees higher than Hudson's.  Extrapolating the last ten years data has the southern coastal end of Pasco County at 30F and Hudson at 28.5F.

I looked at the 1990 USDA zones map which is based on only 13 years of data, and it poorly represents Pasco County.   All but the extreme southwest corner is depicted as zone 9a yet data for San Antonio, Dade City, and St Leo, have averages above 26F for the period and they are on the elevated far east side of the county. 

[RedRabbit]

 

7 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Actually, nearly the entire county except the extreme north-central area east of Shady Hills between 589 and 41 and extending a few miles to the east is zone 9b.  That rural, cold area has a January monthly low that is 3.3 degrees F colder than Hudson's at US-19.  The warmest part of the county which extends from Anclote to Hudson, is approaching zone 10a and it is along the coast extending inland for 1-2 miles.  Tarpon Springs' average January monthly low is only about 1.2 degrees higher than Hudson's.  Extrapolating the last ten years data has the southern coastal end of Pasco County at 30F and Hudson at 28.5F.

I looked at the 1990 USDA zones map which is based on only 13 years of data, and it poorly represents Pasco County.   All but the extreme southwest corner is depicted as zone 9a yet data for San Antonio, Dade City, and St Leo, have averages above 26F for the period and they are on the elevated far east side of the county. 

Yep, you’re 100% right. I think I was mistaking Hudson for Hernando Beach because Hernando County is definitely 9a. I guess it shows I don’t venture up there very often. lol

[LivistonaFan]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:10 AM, RedRabbit said:

I'm curious if the royals on the St. Johns have been there since before 2003. That 2003 low of 21f in Mayport should have killed any royals in the area. The instances of 25f are dicey too.

Any idea what winter water temps are like for the St. Johns? I know the Atlantic gets cold up there so I'm wondering if the St. Johns actually stays warmer during the winter. If that's the case then the eastern bank of the St. Johns might be the warmest part of Jax. 

 

On 10/4/2019 at 1:25 PM, The7thLegend said:

You may be on to something since the Saint Johns current travels backwards and manatees like to huddle in rivers during the cold.

I haven't seen anyone answering this interesting question, so this is what I found after a quick search:

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?site_no=02246500

In the picture is the water temperature of the St. Johns River from November 1st 2018 to November 1st 2019

I hope I could help and this wasn't a redundant post.

[Xenon]

Not too rare in the RGV (Deep South Texas). Not my photos

[Jeff985]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

Not too rare in the RGV (Deep South Texas). Not my photos


Weren’t they becoming fairly common around Houston before 2010? I didn’t live here then, but I seem to remember reading that  

 

[Xenon]

14 minutes ago, Jeff985 said:

 

Not common at all by any measure, but there were a few around if you knew where to look. Foxtails were slightly more common, especially with new inner city development, but still very very rare compared to queen palms. 

[Silas_Sancona]

One of the nicer examples of a Royal here in the Desert..  September, 2019. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

One of the nicer examples of a Royal here in the Desert..  September, 2019. 

Beautiful! Where is this?

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Beautiful! Where is this?

This specimen is located at Treeland Nursery in Mesa.. Well, one could argue the property sits on  on the border between Mesa, Gilbert, and Chandler. Head north past Guadalupe,  you're in Mesa.. Head east of AZ. Ave, you're in Mesa and Gilbert. Couple streets south is generally considered part of Chandler.. Anyway,  As you can see, the owner made a point of having a "Palm Oasis" center stage in the nursery..  Believe he was involved in planting a few other Royals in downtown Phoenix, on the statehouse grounds. 

[sonoranfans]

I used to buy palms from treeland in "chandler".  I remember when we got hit in 2007 by 21F, that royal was in the ground and trunking.  He brought it to arizona as a trunking palm,4-5' trunk.  It was defoliated by the 21 degree freeze but it came back obviously.

[Silas_Sancona]

32 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I used to buy palms from treeland in "chandler".  I remember when we got hit in 2007 by 21F, that royal was in the ground and trunking.  He brought it to arizona as a trunking palm,4-5' trunk.  It was defoliated by the 21 degree freeze but it came back obviously.

Good to know Tom, i'd been meaning to ask him how long it had been in the ground there.

[ruskinPalms]

Royals are tough! Which is why they are barely native to the Florida peninsula.  

[Rain52]

On 10/3/2019 at 12:49 AM, RedRabbit said:

Here's the data I was referring to:

 

28.19f over that period really isn't too bad. That's less than 1f colder than Daytona, Lakeland (Linder), and Tampa (Vandenberg).  I saw I also have data on the Jax Naval Air Station and it came in at 27.69f.

 

[Rain52]

On 10/3/2019 at 12:49 AM, RedRabbit said:

Here's the data I was referring to:

 

28.19f over that period really isn't too bad. That's less than 1f colder than Daytona, Lakeland (Linder), and Tampa (Vandenberg).  I saw I also have data on the Jax Naval Air Station and it came in at 27.69f.