Range of royal palms

[RoystoneaJax]

When I look up information on the hardiness of royal palms I always see people writing that they are zone 10 or so plants. Thing is there are three 30 foot royals up the road from me in Jacksonville, Fl that have been there for 20 years and are thriving. I have also seen Royals in St. Augustine. So my question is can we all agree that Royals can be grown in Jax? Do you think they can grow as far north as Charleston? Below are some pictures I took of the Royals here. They look like they are of the Florida variety.

[The Silent Seed]

Nice palms! 

Why do you need people to "agree" when you already have hard proof? 

[PalmTreeDude]

Those are some nice royals. Are they along the St Johns River or right by the beach? I don't think they would be able to grow in Charleston without some form of protection, even though the winters there can be really mild, you can find 9a palms in Charleston. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by PalmTreeDude

[palmsOrl]

I would say they would certainly indicate a FL climate that hasn't seem mich below 25F in their lifetime.  So, a string of mild winters combined with barely surviving the colder ones of the past 20 years could allow them to persist like the ones in Jacksonville.  My guess is that a mature one would be hard pressed to survive even a very mild winter in Charleston.

[RedRabbit]

The royals pictured above have been discussed before on the forum. If memory serves, they’re on the eastern bank of the St Johns river. We’ve attributed their survival to:

1. An exceptionally good microclimate. Royals do okay in 9b and the spot they’re in is probably 9b thanks to heat coming off the river.

2. Luck. There haven’t been any severe winters in a long time.

I think it’s amazing they’ve been able to survive in Jax. Long term they really are 10a palms. We’ve got plenty in 9b parts of town here, but old ones (pre-1980) only exist in 10a locations and not even all 10a locals. Could one live in Charleston? Maybe for a year or two if it’s an exceptionally warm winter. 10 years? Not a chance.

 

[kinzyjr]

@RoystoneaJax I agree with the sentiments that we've had a pretty good string of mild winters and that growing one in Charleston would be rough.  Welcome to PalmTalk!

[RoystoneaJax]

@palmtreedude

They are on the east side of the St. John’s river right off Goodbys Creek like RedRabbit said. They were discussed on this forum in 2012 and when I saw that forum a couple of months ago I drove up the road to see if it was for real and sure enough they are still there and going strong. They are also selling Christmas palms and foxtail palms pretty heavily at the department store in my neighborhood and I have seen them at several houses and the McDonals drive through. I bought a triple Christmas palm and put it next to my pool and I will be very interested to see how they make it through the winter. My guess is they will definitely get burned but will survive though I think Christmas palms might be more sensitive then Royals because they are smaller. Thank you for all the responses I wanted to share because I love roystonea and I think it is awesome to see them up here

[Reeverse]

It is great to see Royals that big that far north. They must be in a really good spot. 

[RoystoneaJax]

@Reeverse

My dream is to put one like that in my back yard for all to see. Right now I have a young one in a pot that I will protect through the winter and possibly plant in the spring. 

[Jeff985]

38 minutes ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@palmtreedude

They are on the east side of the St. John’s river right off Goodbys Creek like RedRabbit said. They were discussed on this forum in 2012 and when I saw that forum a couple of months ago I drove up the road to see if it was for real and sure enough they are still there and going strong. They are also selling Christmas palms and foxtail palms pretty heavily at the department store in my neighborhood and I have seen them at several houses and the McDonals drive through. I bought a triple Christmas palm and put it next to my pool and I will be very interested to see how they make it through the winter. My guess is they will definitely get burned but will survive though I think Christmas palms might be more sensitive then Royals because they are smaller. Thank you for all the responses I wanted to share because I love roystonea and I think it is awesome to see them up here

Christmas palms are more cold sensitive than coconuts. I’d start planning to protect them. 

[RoystoneaJax]

@jeff985

Interesting I had no idea. Maybe just because they are smaller? Any ideas on how I could protect them? I was figuring just put a cover over them if or when it freezes.

Edited September 26, 2019 by RoystoneaJax
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[Jeff985]

6 minutes ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@jeff985

Interesting I had no idea. Maybe just because they are smaller? Any ideas on how I could protect them? I was figuring just put a cover over them if or when it freezes.

Even when they’re mature they’re very cold sensitive. There are people on this site who are in Orlando and lost some in the January 2018 freeze when it got down to 28f. Wrap them in C9 Christmas lights the wrap a thick blanket over that. You especially want to protect the crownshaft, but don’t burn it. I’d put something like a layer of burlap between the Christmas lights and the crownshaft. 

[RoystoneaJax]

@Jeff985

Christmas lights on a Christmas palm that sounds awesome and I’ll definitely keep it in mind. Thanks!

[Jeff985]

8 minutes ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@Jeff985

Christmas lights on a Christmas palm that sounds awesome and I’ll definitely keep it in mind. Thanks!

No problem. Forgot to mention. Don’t use LED Christmas lights. They don’t put off any heat. 

[GottmitAlex]

14 minutes ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@Jeff985

Christmas lights on a Christmas palm that sounds awesome and I’ll definitely keep it in mind. Thanks!

Incandescent is the way to go.

[sonoranfans]

I have two royals bigger than those(35'or so) that were planted in 2011 with 3' clear trunk(they were cheap).  It could be mild winters since then plus a warm spot along the river would help.  I would not waste my time in charleston.  Small royals cannot take cold like large ones you have to get through a few years without lots of damage to put some biomass and bud height on.  As the plant mass and bud height grow they become more cold hardy to advective(biomass) and radiational(bud height and biomass help) events.  Mine lost a little over half the crown after the 30F advective event in jan 2018.  They came back fast and have about 10-12 leaves now.  In 2010, I had 2 15 gallons and two 7 gallons killed outright in 28F plus frost x2.  They got bud rot in spite of peroxide and fungicide treatments that saved 5g dypsis pembana(2-3 saved) after spear pull.  Almost all palms are more cold hardy once established, so wherever you push zones its good for 1/2 a zone maybe with overhead and wind protection.  Even in that 2010 freeze/frost, the royals over 20' all survived in my neighborhood.  Smaller royals and foxtails dies at a very high % in that freeze larger ones are still standing today and yes got burned pretty good in jan 2018.  we have really had a series of warm winters, the home depot coconut plantings are waiting for a bad year like 2010 to croak.   30 degrees in han 2018 didnt kill cocos, but 28 in 2010 killed every one nearby.

[RoystoneaJax]

@sonoranfans That’s crazy that you guys so temperatures that low in southwest FL. It must be because of the polar vortex. I think east Jacksonville and St. John’s county might actually be around the same zone as you guys because of the Gulf Stream, all the rivers and creeks, and the fact that the polar vortex doesn’t hit us here on the east coast of FL. I don’t believe we had temps colder than 28 here that year and honestly I don’t even know if it got that cold. I know that USDA zone maps usually show that 9b extends a lot further north on the east coast of FL than the west and my assumption is that is due to the polar vortex.

[Jeff985]

39 minutes ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@sonoranfans That’s crazy that you guys so temperatures that low in southwest FL. It must be because of the polar vortex. I think east Jacksonville and St. John’s county might actually be around the same zone as you guys because of the Gulf Stream, all the rivers and creeks, and the fact that the polar vortex doesn’t hit us here on the east coast of FL. I don’t believe we had temps colder than 28 here that year and honestly I don’t even know if it got that cold. I know that USDA zone maps usually show that 9b extends a lot further north on the east coast of FL than the west and my assumption is that is due to the polar vortex.

Everyone east of the Rockies can be a victim of the polar vortex. It has hit Jacksonville. It’s even hit Miami. In the late 70’s it made it as far south as Freeport, Bahamas, where they received snow. The best way to tell what’s hardy in your area without protection is to drive around and see what’s common. There are plenty of palm enthusiast in Jacksonville, several of them are even members of this forum, and everyone loves Royals. If they could be grown easily in Jacksonville, you’d see tons of them. I’m not saying don’t try it. I push the zone myself. I’m just saying don’t fall into a false sense of security because Jacksonville has had a nice stretch of mild winters. 

[howfam]

On 9/25/2019 at 4:25 PM, RoystoneaJax said:

When I look up information on the hardiness of royal palms I always see people writing that they are zone 10 or so plants. Thing is there are three 30 foot royals up the road from me in Jacksonville, Fl that have been there for 20 years and are thriving. I have also seen Royals in St. Augustine. So my question is can we all agree that Royals can be grown in Jax? Do you think they can grow as far north as Charleston? Below are some pictures I took of the Royals here. They look like they are of the Florida variety.

RoystoneaJax: Thanks for the updated photos of these incredible Royal Palms in Jax. I first posted these palms in Nov. 2012 under the topic " Roystonea Regia in Flagler Beach..." and I'm just as impressed with them now as when I first saw them from my boat while cruising from the boat ramp at Goodby's Creek.  Just goes to show what you can do in spite of an occasional winter event setback if you persist.  They are nearly 20 years in the ground and have grown considerably  since 2012. Please compare my photos from that year to your recent pics to see the size difference./ Howfam

[bubba]

Cool!

[kurt decker]

Come on. Somebody figure out how to keep a few alive right over the border in Georgia. Now that would be something. Royals in Jacksonville, that's an incredible proposition.  But Royals in Georgia would be next level

[Nj Palms]

On 9/28/2019 at 2:49 AM, kurt decker said:

Come on. Somebody figure out how to keep a few alive right over the border in Georgia. Now that would be something. Royals in Jacksonville, that's an incredible proposition.  But Royals in Georgia would be next level

I think they could be pulled off on one of the sea islands such as Jekyll.

[RedRabbit]

4 hours ago, Nj Palms said:

I think they could be pulled off on one of the sea islands such as Jekyll.

They might survive a few years on Jekyll or East Beach on St. Simmons, but I don’t think you’d get a 20 year run like the royals in Jacksonville. 

The Golden Isles have a very good microclimate for Georgia, but based on the data I’ve seen that area is only borderline 9b. If you look at what’s planted there it’s pretty consistent with 9a. I really don’t believe the climate is going to support royals unfortunately. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by RedRabbit

[sonoranfans]

jacksonville is in no way as warm as palmetto.  Our historical low here is 26F, it was a 30 year cold and it was a very still night so we had no help from the gulf or tampa bay bringing warmer winds over the waters.  It came straight down out of the north (slightly NE) so the cold did not come across water. We got it worse than some historically colder parts of florida.  Radiational cold events historically are colder.  And palmetto has mostly been 2-4 degrees warmer than most of orlando and jacksonville(notably colder) and daytona beach etc.  When the cold comes vrom N/NW as it mostly does we get the air over water, unlike those places.  Dec 15 2010 was called a 30 year cold event in our area, but it can happen.  My neighbors who moved here before me had all their larger royals partly defolliated but they all survived and look beautiful today.  this encouraged me to plant larger Royals(~3' trunk).  We are (warm)9B classified about 8-16 miles inland(depending on direction.  Being proximate to the water matters only when the wind comes across it at slow wind velocities, but if its a still night and coming from N/slightly NE over land it gets colder and nearby water didnt seem to matter much.  At the coldest part of the night the winds were 2mph N, slightly northeast.  

[palmsOrl]

I agree with sonoranfans that Jacksonville is not as warm/mild as Palmetto.

That said, I am going to go out on a limb and say that Palmetto has been significantly colder than 26F in recorded history.  Perhaps not in 30 or more years, but at some point it must have gotten colder than that there.  Maybe recording stations didn't exist in Palmetto yet when it (likely) got below 26F.

[RedRabbit]

I agree with @sonoranfans too. Palmetto is much warmer than Jacksonville; west of 41 is probably boardering on 10b.

Edited October 1, 2019 by RedRabbit

[The7thLegend]

Not saying Jacksonville is warmer than Palmetto, but like Orlando, Jax benefits from a major urban heat island plus the St. John's to warm cooling events as the near.

[RoystoneaJax]

@sonoranfans You’re right Palmetto is much warmer than Jacksonville, though certain areas in Jacksonville are warmer than others. Out west is close to 8b though the east part of the city is solid 9a and along the river and coast maybe bordering on 9b. Thing is though is that it’s all considered part of Jacksonville.

[RedRabbit]

4 minutes ago, RoystoneaJax said:

@sonoranfans You’re right Palmetto is much warmer than Jacksonville, though certain areas in Jacksonville are warmer than others. Out west is close to 8b though the east part of the city is solid 9a and along the river and coast maybe bordering on 9b. Thing is though is that it’s all considered part of Jacksonville.

I analyzed the temperature data from Mayport before and I believe the average low came out to 28f. I was surprised that it came out that high, only about 4f colder than Orlando, New Smyrna Beach, and Tampa. Is there anywhere in Jax that might be warmer than Mayport? 

[howfam]

16 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I analyzed the temperature data from Mayport before and I believe the average low came out to 28f. I was surprised that it came out that high, only about 4f colder than Orlando, New Smyrna Beach, and Tampa. Is there anywhere in Jax that might be warmer than Mayport? 

RedRabbit:

I can't imagine Mayport having an average temp. of 28 F at any time, being right on the ocean(Naval Base and all). Maybe some extreme past winter event, but not normal. Please review the data to make sure.

[kurt decker]

There are houses with Georgia addresses within 30 miles of these Jacksonville palms. Looks like there's a lot of inland water at the St Mary's delta, I don't know how many residents there are around there. My nephew lives in Fernandina Beach, and works at the sub base in Georgia. Maybe I can get him to poke around and see what he can find as far as potential warm spots. We come from a family of meteorologists, so he has some sense for these things. I would have never thought Royals could thrive in Jacksonville the way those three have. They aren't surviving, they are thriving. Royal Palms in Georgia. What a mission. I would have thought it would be impossible. Now I don't

Edited October 3, 2019 by kurt decker

[RedRabbit]

6 hours ago, howfam said:

RedRabbit:

I can't imagine Mayport having an average temp. of 28 F at any time, being right on the ocean(Naval Base and all). Maybe some extreme past winter event, but not normal. Please review the data to make sure.

Here's the data I was referring to:

 

28.19f over that period really isn't too bad. That's less than 1f colder than Daytona, Lakeland (Linder), and Tampa (Vandenberg).  I saw I also have data on the Jax Naval Air Station and it came in at 27.69f.

Edited October 3, 2019 by RedRabbit

[greysrigging]

Great topic and I wonder how far south they grow in Australia ? Very common in Darwin, Northern Territory ( 12*S ) and of course on the tropical Queensland coast.
There are big mature specimens in Mt Isa, north west Queensland, a very hot semi arid climate that has recorded below freezing temps historically.
Alice Springs in the NT, also a hot arid desert climate, does not have Royals that I know of. But they have severe winter frosts, historically as low as -7c (  20f ), so a bit beyond the range I think.
I think they grow a fair way down south on the Western Australian coast too....

[sonoranfans]

true that palmetto was not around 50 years ago, just a few streets and no local weather station.  But there was one a mile down the road towards 41, and it was 28x2 in 2010.  the record low from bradenton sarasota airport is 27F:  Yes even those really cold days in the 80's werent that cold around here.  those polar vortexes hit the east coast harder than here.  https://www.bradenton.com/latest-news/article34500378.html

[kinzyjr]

@greysrigging Given the amount of zone 9 and 10 type climates in Australia from your map in the Climate section of the site, I'd say that most of the island could handle a Roystonea regia.

[RoystoneaJax]

@RedRabbit Wow that is actually pretty warm for an average extreme low over that period. I am not sure how much warmer the area with those Royal Palm is which is further south down the river on Goodbys Creek but I suppose it could be a little warmer, though it could be a little colder too considering there is not as much water there as at Mayport. Jax Beach could have a warmer low than Mayport but I can’t say for sure if there is any part of town warmer than that. Thanks for sharing that data!

[SWFLchris]

All you have to do is take a quick drive around both cities to see that Palmetto is wildly more tropical than Jax. There is no question about it.

[The7thLegend]

Curious what Palmetto's Royals look like.  Maybe someone can post some pictures to compare.

[Jeff985]

10 minutes ago, The7thLegend said:

Curious what Palmetto's Royals look like.  Maybe someone can post some pictures to compare.

Good enough to make me jealous. 

[SWFLchris]

https://www.google.com/maps/@27.5306484,-82.5067399,3a,75y,174.11h,88.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEeAoBYoVPaWiCfE9RUI36Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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