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Palmsofengland

London’s palmy potential

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B87

Nothing above 9C and not even a hint of sun in the forecast. Light subpolar drizzle every day. This city sucks. 

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UK_Palms
13 hours ago, B87 said:

Nothing above 9C and not even a hint of sun in the forecast. Light subpolar drizzle every day. This city sucks. 

Lol, we’ve had a week with highs of 8-9C and lows of 4-5C. London still hasn’t had a frost yet and it will be back in the double digits by the end of next week. 

Chicago reached -15C the other night, so quit complaining.

My Washies and Phoenix are still actively growing here. 

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UK_Palms
15 hours ago, B87 said:

Nothing above 9C and not even a hint of sun in the forecast. Light subpolar drizzle every day. This city sucks. 

Also your statement is nonsense because it’s currently really sunny here with crystal clear skies. I am actually registering 11.2C in the shade right now. 

And you need to look up the definition of ‘sub-polar’ mate. With the exception of the highest mountain peaks in Scotland, nowhere in the UK is considered sub-polar. Let alone the southeast of England and London. 

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redbeard917

The garden in my last post is located in Bristol. A very nice Juania that appears to be trunking, from south Devon, was just posted on a Facebook group called "The European Palm Society". I can't link to it, but it's certainly one worth trying.

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Palmsofengland
14 minutes ago, redbeard917 said:

The garden in my last post is located in Bristol. A very nice Juania that appears to be trunking, from south Devon, was just posted on a Facebook group called "The European Palm Society". I can't link to it, but it's certainly one worth trying.

I definitely think Juania could be a likely winner in central London, although they are probably a bit more suited to the south coast, which never really gets very hot. There’s actually a good amount of fresh seed being advertised on the EPS, some of which I am trying to get ahold of...

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B87
16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Lol, we’ve had a week with highs of 8-9C and lows of 4-5C. London still hasn’t had a frost yet and it will be back in the double digits by the end of next week. 

Chicago reached -15C the other night, so quit complaining.

My Washies and Phoenix are still actively growing here. 

-15C is at least interesting. London weather is suicide fuel. Plus Chicago gets true summers and storms.

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GottmitAlex
6 minutes ago, B87 said:

-15C is at least interesting. London weather is suicide fuel. Plus Chicago gets true summers and storms.

Something tells me there are more palms in London/England that there are in Chicago/ Illinois.

Edited by GottmitAlex

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B87
Just now, GottmitAlex said:

Something tells me there are more palms in London/England that there are in Chicago. 

Oh it definitely does, can't think of any palm that could make it in Chicago

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Stevetoad

I always find it humorous when people argue about their climate. If you think you have a great climate then plant accordingly. Don’t throw away an easy excuse for why you can’t grow something. If it dies then you can blame it on your climate. If it thrives then you can say it’s due to your superior growing skills. I embrace having one of the worse microclimates in San Diego CA.   

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GottmitAlex
40 minutes ago, Stevetoad said:

I always find it humorous when people argue about their climate. If you think you have a great climate then plant accordingly. Don’t throw away an easy excuse for why you can’t grow something. If it dies then you can blame it on your climate. If it thrives then you can say it’s due to your superior growing skills. I embrace having one of the worse microclimates in San Diego CA.   

Hear, hear.

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PalmTreeDude

While I was in London last June I saw many Trachycarpus fortunei (some absolutely massive ones too). There was also a few smaller Canary Island Date Palms here and there. I took this picture of a Butia while I was there. There were some cool plants that you could find hidden around. 

20190625_165901.jpg

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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sipalms

Nice. 

Out of interest, did you see any Queen Palms?

Or naturalised Phoenix or Washingtonia from self seeding palms?

Cheers

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GottmitAlex
4 minutes ago, sipalms said:

Nice. 

Out of interest, did you see any Queen Palms?

Or naturalised Phoenix or Washingtonia from self seeding palms?

Cheers

Well, as he said, most are hidden. 

Heck, when we visit San Francisco every year,  the palm gems are hidden.  You have to be an insider, no pun intended, to know those special backyards. 

 

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sipalms
2 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Well, as he said, most are hidden. 

Heck, when we visit San Francisco every year,  the palm gems are hidden.  You have to be an insider, no pun intended, to know those special backyards. 

For sure, no doubt. I would just really love to see photos and evidence of;

a) Seedlings and/or small Phoenix palms that are 100% occuring naturally, not planted, and survive winters.

b) Fruiting/seeding Washingtonia and said naturalised seedlings/small palms

c) Large, established Queen Palms 10+ years old, if fruiting, even better.

It's not that I don't want them to be in existence in London/UK. It's just that I'm doubtful. I come from a similar if not warmer, and definitely sunnier climate and I've never seen the above here in Christchurch. Even the tallest washingtonias don't seem to like procreating :hmm:. CIDP seed like they're going out of fashion but to find a naturalised plant is a different story as it takes a lot more warmth/moisture than our climate provides.

Drive north by 300km and yes, all of the above occur.

If there was, it would give me great optimism about my climate. That's why I'd love evidence not just passing comments from potentially over-optimistic palm folks from the UK.

I should add too, that I'm talking unprotected palms not ones that get any form of protection through long dark winters

Edited by sipalms

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GottmitAlex
24 minutes ago, sipalms said:

For sure, no doubt. I would just really love to see photos and evidence of;

a) Seedlings and/or small Phoenix palms that are 100% occuring naturally, not planted, and survive winters.

b) Fruiting/seeding Washingtonia and said naturalised seedlings/small palms

c) Large, established Queen Palms 10+ years old, if fruiting, even better.

It's not that I don't want them to be in existence in London/UK. It's just that I'm doubtful. I come from a similar if not warmer, and definitely sunnier climate and I've never seen the above here in Christchurch. Even the tallest washingtonias don't seem to like procreating :hmm:. CIDP seed like they're going out of fashion but to find a naturalised plant is a different story as it takes a lot more warmth/moisture than our climate provides.

Drive north by 300km and yes, all of the above occur.

If there was, it would give me great optimism about my climate. That's why I'd love evidence not just passing comments from potentially over-optimistic palm folks from the UK.

I should add too, that I'm talking unprotected palms not ones that get any form of protection through long dark winters

Unprotected in the UK. you just never know. 

 

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petiole10

A nice Butia growing just a couple of minutes away up my street - a bit larger than my own one.

 

SAM_1915.thumb.JPG.f9d0fe84a9cc1f296591302602e46dd7.JPGSAM_1917.thumb.JPG.a48012e284cec03c32a61cacf5ed0310.JPG

And a CIDP also a couple of minutes away.. Its not the greatest picture as its difficult to get close without taking a picture through the homeowners window!

SAM_1919.thumb.JPG.61bd361941ea2611cbcf0a2ea546ad38.JPG

 

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Axel Amsterdam

I know ( and found) quite a number of the London palms portrayed in this thread so i might be able to provide some answers. 
 

There is one very recent recorded case of a yearly Fruiting CIDP with seedlings around it. Its the one in Warwick gardens on page 3 of this thread. So yes its possible that more seedlings can be found in London. I tend to think that most will stay close to the motherpalm. Trachycarpus seeds for example havent spread out either despite decades of fruiting. 
 

There is no recorded case of a fruiting washy in London. 

Queens have a hard time growing in London. The picture above of the young queens actually emphasises this point. They have been growing in that Garden for years. So not impossible but certainly an absolute rarity at the moment. I must add that i believe its not a lack of heat since there are some larger queens in Brittany where summer temps are lower. To me it seems that queens will take years to settle and perhaps one day take off in London. 
 

Finally, the fact that London can grow CIDPs washies and quite large yucca elephantipes is a testimony that a temperate climate that doesnt dip regularly below -5c can accomodate these plants, despite low sun angles and humidity in winter. 
 

Most other palms listed in the original post probably need a warmer summer climate of less airfrosts that damages tender fronds, slowing the palm down. But i love to be proven wrong. I know for example a couple of dracaena dracos in London doing quite well, so lets see if there can be more surprises in this climate at the absolute border of unprotected possibilities. 

 

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Axel Amsterdam

 

 

https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.4041337,-0.2134174,3a,37.5y,309.71h,91.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOEKtU9oPQCIMRoAUvb_I0g!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

 

This is an example why the London climate is on the edge.

There were 2 CIDP's originally, after the cold winter of 2010 the right one was killed (as can be seen on street view), the left one survived, defoliated and scarred. The city center is warmer than this location though.   

 

 

 

Edited by Axel Amsterdam

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petiole10

But it isn't just London (and other greater palm potential parts of the UK) that saw unprecedented cold weather in 2010.  Freezing weather extended to some southern parts of Florida, for a time, and also parts of Mediterranean Europe. - both sides of the Atlantic - and threatened a much wider ranges of palm species than usually would be expected in a given winter.  Using an unusual anomaly year like 2010 rather skews probability risk, and so any suggestion London's climate is "on the edge" rather overstates the perspective if that year is used as an expected base line for guidance, when it is a modern day exception to the rule.

There is always the risk of an unusually cold winter coming along, but this could apply to so many other places around the world, especially bearing in mind the unusual effects of climate change. However, the trend is for unusual anomaly years (like 2010) to become ever more few and far between than they already are. It could therefore be argued that other parts of the world that might have relatively warmer zones for growing palms than London also have a climate that is "on the edge" if a year like 2010 is used as the benchmark of expectancy. Because 2010's cold weather extended to places that rarely see sub zero cold weather at all.

 

Edited by petiole10

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Axel Amsterdam

Fair point. I think there was a severe outbreak in the late 90’s as well in London. I know that only one CIDP survived that was planted next to some heat generator. 2010 was relatively mild compared to that event. So overall a good place to try palms, just like other more palmy areas that experience hard frosts every 10 to 15 years.

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cbmnz
On 12/2/2019 at 9:14 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

 

 

https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.4041337,-0.2134174,3a,37.5y,309.71h,91.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOEKtU9oPQCIMRoAUvb_I0g!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

 

This is an example why the London climate is on the edge.

There were 2 CIDP's originally, after the cold winter of 2010 the right one was killed (as can be seen on street view), the left one survived, defoliated and scarred. The city center is warmer than this location though.   

Impressive comeback by the left hand one, given the state it was in in the May 2012 capture.

On 12/2/2019 at 9:14 PM, Axel Amsterdam said:

 

 

 

Edited by cbmnz

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Josh76
On 12/1/2019 at 9:35 AM, Axel Amsterdam said:

Queens have a hard time growing in London. The picture above of the young queens actually emphasises this point. They have been growing in that Garden for years. So not impossible but certainly an absolute rarity at the moment. I must add that i believe its not a lack of heat since there are some larger queens in Brittany where summer temps are lower. To me it seems that queens will take years to settle and perhaps one day take off in London. 
 

Axel - which Queens are your referring to? I've been following this thread and haven't seen any photos of Queens in London. Which page in the thread are they on? Thanks

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Axel Amsterdam

Hi Josh, they are at the bottom on page 3 in Barry's garden, north London.

I appreciate the effort and hope one day they will take off, but so far they are protected with a small greenhouse every winter and grow one leaf every season. 

I have never seen any other pictures of queens growing in London. 

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Axel Amsterdam

Planted out queens I mean, not potted.

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