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London’s palmy potential

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PalmsNC
47 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

 

I find it absolutely baffling that you can claim that Raleigh is subtropical, when your record low is -23C. That is absolute madness. And you have the tenacity to argue in the same sentence that London's climate is not sub-tropical :floor:

It seems your lowest temperature for 2018 was -16C on Jan 7th. That will knock out Trachycarpus Fortunei even. All but the hardiest ones at least. So you should be expecting -15C at least in any given year in Raleigh. That's brutally cold. 

I have been alive 27 years and the coldest London has seen in that time is about -7C. Last year it only got down to -2C. A massive difference.

Given that we also hit 38C (100F) during the summer, I would say that London is currently sub-tropical. Whereas your climate is not.

Forget pre-dated, expired definitions and what not. You cannot live in a 'subtropical' climate if you can't grow anything subtropical there. Which you can't. Fact.

The mean minimum for Raleigh utilizing an official 30-year data set (81-10) is 8a.... enough to grow sabal, windmill, gardenia, camellia. Most landscaping here utilizes some form of subtropical plants such as nandina, holly, southern magnolia, gardenia, and especially tons of camellia. The winter landscape of Raleigh is not all brown and dead as you characterize it, not much different from London and if anything we have NATIVE subtropical plants here such as magnolias, which you do not. Also, all the trachycarpus fortunei look great, there's some 30, 50, and even 60-year-old windmills all across the state. So don't make stuff up.  I will also add unlike London when we get cold it can be 70 degrees 1 or 2 days later so damage is minimized. whereas you will get cold and "warm-up" too cold drizzly 40s.  100 ? I hit that October 3 this year.

 

Hell if I start using bs unofficial 10 year data sets raleigh is approaching 8b with a mean minimum of 13, 14 inside the city.

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SubarcticUK
2 minutes ago, PalmsNC said:

The mean minimum for Raleigh utilizing an official 30-year data set (81-10) is 8a.... enough to grow sabal, windmill, gardenia, camellia. Most landscaping here utilizes some form of subtropical plants such as nandina, holly, southern magnolia, gardenia, and especially tons of camellia. The winter landscape of Raleigh is not all brown and dead as you characterize it, not much different from London and if anything we have NATIVE subtropical plants here such as magnolias, which you do not. Also, all the trachycarpus fortunei look great, there's some 30, 50, and even 60-year-old windmills all across the state. So don't make stuff up.  I will also add unlike London when we get cold it can be 70 degrees 1 or 2 days later so damage is minimized. whereas you will get cold and "warm-up" too cold drizzly 40s.  100 ? I hit that October 3 this year.

 

Hell if I start using bs unofficial 10 year data sets raleigh is approaching 8b with a mean minimum of 13, 14 inside the city.

Portland is actually even better at upper 8b approaching 9a - in recent years, it might even be 9a. Trachycarpus, needle palms, sabal palmettos, etc grow very well in this climate, and there’s actually a place southeast of Portland that carries many palm species. Washingtonia Filifera might be able to grow, I’ve heard that they can grow up to 40’ in the Pacific Northwest.

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UK_Palms
9 minutes ago, SubarcticUK said:

Tallahassee, Florida has a record low of -19°C.

Ketchikan, Alaska has a record low of -18°C.

Is Ketchikan subtropical? What about Tallahassee?

Also, you do not hit 100°F in the summer outside of freak events. Many years, London has trouble even getting to 90°F.

Nonsensical comment. 

Tallahassee doesn't drop below -5 / -6C most years (except for the odd freak winter) and it has good heat for 10 months of the year, unlike Alaska. You can grow quite a bit of cold sensitive stuff in northern Florida, so clearly it is subtropical, generally speaking. 

As opposed to places like Raleigh that have seen -16C as recently as 2018 and -13C the year before that. And tons of snow. Or Portland where you are, that is both cold and very, very wet during winter. Almost impossible to get a CIDP through one winter there, let alone two. I haven't seen any pics of established CIDP's in Portland.

You can argue it, but both Raleigh and Portland are making London look more and more subtropical, the more I look at it...

Also, I have already stated my highs on here during recent years, but here they are again...

2015 - 97F

2016 - 96F

2017 - 99F

2018 - 98F

2019 - 100F

I'm not in London. I'm just to the southeast, near Guildford. We break 90F every year now. Part of a progressive warming trend across northwestern Europe. 

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PalmsNC
5 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Nonsensical comment. 

Tallahassee doesn't drop below -5 / -6C most years (except for the odd freak winter) and it has good heat for 10 months of the year, unlike Alaska. You can grow quite a bit of cold sensitive stuff in northern Florida, so clearly it is subtropical, generally speaking. 

As opposed to places like Raleigh that have seen -16C as recently as 2018 and -13C the year before that. And tons of snow. Or Portland where you are, that is both cold and very, very wet during winter. Almost impossible to get a CIDP through one winter there, let alone two. I haven't seen any pics of established CIDP's in Portland.

You can argue it, but both Raleigh and Portland are making London look more and more subtropical, the more I look at it...

Also, I have already stated my highs on here during recent years, but here they are again...

2015 - 97F

2016 - 96F

2017 - 99F

2018 - 98F

2019 - 100F

I'm not in London. I'm just to the southeast, near Guildford. We break 90F every year now. Part of a progressive warming trend across northwestern Europe. 

Once more, those years were our " freak winters" something London is overdue for.  December 2015 in Raleigh and February 2017 ... warmer than much of the uk in summer.

 

image.png.cbb67b76d4c0f0ffd905898f7d5a1d88.png

 

image.png.01081bda0fd83e838bb0f593b4459777.png

 

Oh and notice something? The average high is around 60 start of December and end of February... something London ahs to wait till May for. Please, you are an oceanic climate.  A typical london july would feel like april to me. Also, GUILDFORD HAS DROPPED TO -15C IN JAN 1982 AND -13C AS RECENT AS DEC 2010. Your queens wont like that let alone cidp

 

Edited by PalmsNC
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SubarcticUK

According to the Wunderground stats, London did not reach 90°F once in 2017 using data from the London City Airport.

Raleigh has FAR more warmth than London, a simple look at a climate table will prove this (especially if Tallahassee has far more warmth than Ketchikan). Also, a Portland winter is only very slightly colder than a London winter in terms of averages (we’re talking about 0.5°C difference in the average lows here), while being significantly warmer in spring, summer, and fall.

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UK_Palms
Just now, PalmsNC said:

Once more, those years were our " freak winters" something London is overdue for.  December 2015 in Raleigh and February 2017 ... warmer than much of the uk in summer.

 

image.png.cbb67b76d4c0f0ffd905898f7d5a1d88.png

 

image.png.01081bda0fd83e838bb0f593b4459777.png

 

 

 

You can talk about London being overdue a "freak" winter all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that central London has never dropped below -8.5C in its recorded history. With -6C being the coldest I have ever seen and last winter only getting down to -2C.

You had -16C last year in Raleigh. And -13C the year before that. Both of which would be all time record lows for the entire London metropolitan area. And you're on here posting stats to prove that you are subtropical and London is not. When you can't even get anything subtropical through winter there. I'm sorry but the logic just seems flawed. 

I already know that you have higher summer temperatures than me, so I don't know why you are trying to prove that. You are on the North American continent at 35N. I am on an island in the Atlantic at 51N. You obviously get more summer heat. But the difference is that I can get subtropical species through winter here. 

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sipalms
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:
1 hour ago, sipalms said:

874712602_20191015_1452132.thumb.jpg.71b98f30144d96b5f1ef5fa93e22c98b.jpg

Here's a nearby one I just took a photo of right now.

Christchurch as a place was hardly even a thing 125 years ago so I'd say this is probably more like 50 years old. 

Nor am I claiming this climate is subtropical. It is far from it...

Fair do's. That's a decent sized CIDP. I know CIDP's do well in Christchurch, but I was intrigued to see how big they have got to over there, given all the crap talking about London's climate and our chances growing palms. 

That one is a similar size to the big ones on Tresco, although it's definitely not bigger than the tallest one on Tresco which is about 60ft

Great job measuring the height from 12000 miles away.

They don't bother measuring palm heights here for official records as no one is out to prove that we live in a subtropical or Mediterranean climate.

But if you're still looking for a good old [palm] measuring contest, then I'm up for one. This time it'll be Queen's and Washies (robustas) and Bangalows, not some CIDP with a cold tolerance of -10 or lower. Come on, produce the goods. And not from some offshore island or in a mollycoddled botantic garden.

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PalmsNC
6 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

You can talk about London being overdue a "freak" winter all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that central London has never dropped below -8.5C in its recorded history. With -6C being the coldest I have ever seen and last winter only getting down to -2C.

You had -16C last year in Raleigh. And -13C the year before that. Both of which would be all time record lows for the entire London metropolitan area. And you're on here posting stats to prove that you are subtropical and London is not. When you can't even get anything subtropical through winter there. I'm sorry but the logic just seems flawed. 

I already know that you have higher summer temperatures than me, so I don't know why you are trying to prove that. You are on the North American continent at 35N. I am on an island in the Atlantic at 51N. You obviously get more summer heat. But the difference is that I can get subtropical species through winter here. 

What do you think of the two winter months I posted ? Also subtropical plants are in the thousands and thousands here from camellias , gardenias and so on . You are incorrect to say we don’t get any through winter lol. Only difference is I don’t get cidp through winter that’s all.

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SubarcticUK
6 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

You can talk about London being overdue a "freak" winter all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that central London has never dropped below -8.5C in its recorded history. With -6C being the coldest I have ever seen and last winter only getting down to -2C.

You had -16C last year in Raleigh. And -13C the year before that. Both of which would be all time record lows for the entire London metropolitan area. And you're on here posting stats to prove that you are subtropical and London is not. When you can't even get anything subtropical through winter there. I'm sorry but the logic just seems flawed. 

I already know that you have higher summer temperatures than me, so I don't know why you are trying to prove that. You are on the North American continent at 35N. I am on an island in the Atlantic at 51N. You obviously get more summer heat. But the difference is that I can get subtropical species through winter here. 

Raleigh grows subtropical plants and even has two native palm tree species. NCPalms just stated that. The UK has zero, because it isn’t subtropical.

Also, the Central London data is from a rooftop station that doesn’t meet official standards. This was stated before.

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UK_Palms
11 minutes ago, SubarcticUK said:

According to the Wunderground stats, London did not reach 90°F once in 2017 using data from the London City Airport.

Raleigh has FAR more warmth than London, a simple look at a climate table will prove this (especially if Tallahassee has far more warmth than Ketchikan). Also, a Portland winter is only very slightly colder than a London winter in terms of averages (we’re talking about 0.5°C difference in the average lows here), while being significantly warmer in spring, summer, and fall.

Firstly, I was quoting my own summer highs for Guildford which is statistically one of the hottest places in England during the summer. And secondly you are looking at an east London station, away from the CBD and near the river Thames estuary. Central London and specifically the inland suburbs to the southeast are way hotter in summer. The opposite is true in winter though.

Also, how many times do I have to state that Raleigh gets more summer heat. I'm not disputing that as it is obvious. I mean it is at 35N on the continent for Pete's sake. 

I'm just pointing to the fact that Raleigh also has a record low of -23C and has experienced winter lows of -16C in 2018 and -13C the year before that. From a palm growing perspective, if that is considered subtropical on these forums, then I must be from a different planet. What subtropical species can you actually get through winter in Raleigh? Genuine question. 

And again, when making a comparison between Portland and London, you forget to mention that Portland receives 3-4 times as much rainfall and snow as London during winter. That is a massive difference when it comes to the wet-cold and overall hardiness. That is ultimately the reason why there aren't any CIDP or Washie's in Portland. As opposed to your marginally colder nights. Although saying that, you have seen -19C in Portland. That's the other reason.  

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PalmsNC
14 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Firstly, I was quoting my own summer highs for Guildford which is statistically one of the hottest places in England during the summer. And secondly you are looking at an east London station, away from the CBD and near the river Thames estuary. Central London and specifically the inland suburbs to the southeast are way hotter in summer. The opposite is true in winter though.

Also, how many times do I have to state that Raleigh gets more summer heat. I'm not disputing that as it is obvious. I mean it is at 35N on the continent for Pete's sake. 

I'm just pointing to the fact that Raleigh also has a record low of -23C and has experienced winter lows of -16C in 2018 and -13C the year before that. From a palm growing perspective, if that is considered subtropical on these forums, then I must be from a different planet. What subtropical species can you actually get through winter in Raleigh? Genuine question. 

And again, when making a comparison between Portland and London, you forget to mention that Portland receives 3-4 times as much rainfall and snow as London during winter. That is a massive difference when it comes to the wet-cold and overall hardiness. That is ultimately the reason why there aren't any CIDP or Washie's in Portland. As opposed to your marginally colder nights. Although saying that, you have seen -19C in Portland. That's the other reason.  

You deny science , actual weather stats , and climatology . Raleigh is Cfa “Humid subtropical climate” . That is a characterization by men who studied this stuff for their whole lives . You want to say raleigh isn’t subtropical then come up with your own climate classification system backed by peer reviewed research that gets accepted . No? Ok then ... London is not subtropical it is oceanic . Temperate climate , influenced by the ocean .

 

once more there are way too many subtropical plants to list on here . I have native yucca and even an aloe species ... NATIVE . I could fill up pages of this thread with what grows here . Sure I may not pull a cidp through but it is ignorant to say I don’t have subtropical plants ... after all I’m a subtropical climate so therefore what grows here is subtropical . 

 

From windmills to sabal, to camellias and gardenias , roses and jasmine ... dude way too much .

 

I even have NATIVE cactus plants . Yes , cactus native to Raleigh!

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SubarcticUK
10 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Firstly, I was quoting my own summer highs for Guildford which is statistically one of the hottest places in England during the summer. And secondly you are looking at an east London station, away from the CBD and near the river Thames estuary. Central London and specifically the inland suburbs to the southeast are way hotter in summer. The opposite is true in winter though.

Also, how many times do I have to state that Raleigh gets more summer heat. I'm not disputing that as it is obvious. I mean it is at 35N on the continent for Pete's sake. 

I'm just pointing to the fact that Raleigh also has a record low of -23C and has experienced winter lows of -16C in 2018 and -13C the year before that. From a palm growing perspective, if that is considered subtropical on these forums, then I must be from a different planet. What subtropical species can you actually get through winter in Raleigh? Genuine question. 

And again, when making a comparison between Portland and London, you forget to mention that Portland receives 3-4 times as much rainfall and snow as London during winter. That is a massive difference when it comes to the wet-cold and overall hardiness. That is ultimately the reason why there aren't any CIDP or Washie's in Portland. As opposed to your marginally colder nights. Although saying that, you have seen -19C in Portland. That's the other reason.  

Portland and London actually get roughly the same number of rain days. If you use the 1mm threshold, Portland only gets 115-120 rain days per year, about the same as London. Plus, we have more precipitation, proving that London’s climate is indeed very drizzly - having almost 700 less hours of sunshine than Portland doesn’t help, either. 

Also, Raleigh does grow subtropical plants. Gardenias grow in Raleigh, which are a subtropical flower that will fail in cold climates. Not to mention the many palm species that grow in Raleigh, including two that are native to North Carolina. Zero palm species are native to the UK.

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sandgroper
4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 I can assure you that I won't lecture you on a topic about New Zealand's climate, or palms. I'm not arrogant enough to tell you about your own climate and put down your palm growing endeavours. 

To be fair mate ive read your posts where you comment repetitively on everyone else's climate and comparing them all unfavorably in most cases to your own. The UK is a very popular destination for travellers wishing to see historic archetecture, experience history, culture etc... but no one goes there for the weather. Full points to anyone wishing to push the growing barriers, many of us try it, myself included but climates are what they are regardless of what we want them to be. Good luck with the palms to yourself and to the original poster whom I feel quite sorry for as he comes across as a decent person and I wish him well with his experiments. 

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UK_Palms
16 minutes ago, PalmsNC said:

What do you think of the two winter months I posted ? Also subtropical plants are in the thousands and thousands here from camellias , gardenias and so on . You are incorrect to say we don’t get any through winter lol. Only difference is I don’t get cidp through winter that’s all.

With all do respect mate, you posted stats from December and February. You didn't include your coldest month which is January. We both know why that is.

Clearly you get quite a few warm spells during winter, due to you being on the North American continent and alternating between polar and tropical air masses. But we both know that in January when the polar air masses take hold, it plunges you well into the single digits F. And into the negative digits some years. Certain death for all but the hardiest of palms. 

21 minutes ago, SubarcticUK said:

Raleigh grows subtropical plants and even has two native palm tree species. NCPalms just stated that. The UK has zero, because it isn’t subtropical.

Also, the Central London data is from a rooftop station that doesn’t meet official standards. This was stated before.

I am seriously calling into question the definition of 'subtropical' now. Perhaps we have different definitions on either side of the ocean... :mellow2:

If something is hardy down to -20C, I fail to see how that can be considered 'subtropical' by nature. It isn't even remotely tropical in my opinion. Basically all of the 'subtropical' stuff that PalmsNC is growing would therefore sail through my winters here. In which case I am more 'subtropical' than I thought, or the species he grows in Raleigh aren't truly subtropical. Which makes your claim about London not being subtropical somewhat ironic. I mean Sabal Minor will grow in Scotland. 

Also, the UK doesn't have many species in general because it is an island in the Atlantic at 51N. That is why we are introducing subtropical stuff here, which are clearly taking off and growing well, as evidenced by my pictures on previous pages.

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UK_Palms
2 minutes ago, sandgroper said:

To be fair mate ive read your posts where you comment repetitively on everyone else's climate and comparing them all unfavorably in most cases to your own. The UK is a very popular destination for travellers wishing to see historic archetecture, experience history, culture etc... but no one goes there for the weather. Full points to anyone wishing to push the growing barriers, many of us try it, myself included but climates are what they are regardless of what we want them to be. Good luck with the palms to yourself and to the original poster whom I feel quite sorry for as he comes across as a decent person and I wish him well with his experiments. 

I only started commenting on their climates because of all the crap talking about my own climate and the comparisons they were making between their own climates and London/southern England. The guy in Portland, USA called "SubarcticUK" and the guy in NC specifically, trying to make out that London's climate is absolutely awful, literally, and that their own climate's are so much better. Which is debatable from a palm growing perspective, hence why I fired back. 

Anyway, I am going to champion my cause, as a fellow palm enthusiast. I am just concerned that people will be put off from growing palms in the UK by all the scaremongering and stereotypical comments that were flying around in the comments earlier, about us getting hardly any sunlight, freezing cold winters, constant rain, no heat in summer, can't grow Washies etc. They were going on and on. Massive exaggerations and exactly the sort of thing that harms the UK palm growing community and those potentially looking to start growing palms here. It'll make people think they can't grow palms, or that they are too risky to bother with, so damn straight I'm going to fight back against this ridiculous, stereotypical rhetoric. They are potentially harming the cause over here. 

And when I did fight back against the bias nonsense, the climate comparisons came out from SubarcticUK and PalmsNC. You can check back on the previous pages and see. Maybe they shouldn't have opened that can of worms. It may sound a bit cynical, but at least I am making a stand against this ridiculous rhetoric from people who don't even live in London or the UK. I have posted countless pictures in this thread of London's larger CIDP's and Washies, as well as other subtropical palms growing around here. I actually live here, grow palms here and try to promote and help the cause. Which includes defend it too. What exactly have those two contributed mate? Come on...

There seems to be a few people on this forum who would just love it if palms didn't exist in England, period. I suppose England is supposed to be a crappy, dark, wet place. Apparently. That's the notion that was getting thrown around by a select few...

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UK_Palms

Just to lighten the mood...

A nice, healthy Jubaea in London...

And does anyone know if this a pure CIDP, or Dacty hybrid, in London? It looks like it may have something else in it...

56433460_878624202474314_5328340161657121913_n.jpg

55807177_360565048134206_7470922300980413083_n.jpg

date-or-date-palm-phoenix-dactylifera-in-london-F76M7R (1).jpg

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John in Andalucia
9 hours ago, B87 said:

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Anyone who lives in an actual subtropical climate would straight up laugh at you if you told them a place average 19C highs in mid-summer was "subtropical". 

Probably not, since my post content was quoted entirely from research, and we know how wrong the scientists can be, eh? 

Well, I certainly don't profess to be 'judge and jury' when it comes to knowing the facts about the British climate, but, alas, some things are naturally hard to accept, by some.

The accepted definition of 'subtropical'?

'Temperatures exceeding 10 C for a duration of more than 7 months of the year' 

9 hours ago, B87 said:

Many subtropical places rarely see 19C LOWS during the summer. 

'Rarely' is hardly a statement of fact now, is it? Sounds more like you're sitting on the fence sucking your thumb. Perhaps you're hoping I'll come back with a long list of subtropical climates that do fall below your magic number? Easily done, but I don't think so. 

8 hours ago, SubarcticUK said:

Definitely. Visit a warm subtropical place like southern Spain, southern Italy, or California and you will quickly learn the truth.

Yes, I lived on the south coast of Spain for 11 years. Thanks for enlightening me.

You sound like some sort of a climate Yoda. :lol:

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greysrigging

Thought I'd chime in..... enjoying the 'banter' and discussions....
Can't comment on the palmyness or otherwise of London or indeed anywhere in the South of the UK.... never been there.
I have though, a lifelong interest in all things meteorological, particularly stats and weather records etc.
And I have a bit of an issue climatically with Zone Maps and indeed, even Climate Classifications of the Koppen variety. I often feel that they don't fully represent what is experienced 'on the ground'.
Of course there has to be a start point and a cut off point.... so lets consider London and say Melbourne ( being an Aussie this is how I compare )
Now, under the Koppen Classification system, both localities come in at Koppen Cfb, or Temperate Oceanic Climate.
But I really do doubt the two climates are the same... Similar rainfall totals around the 600mm annual mark, Melbourne at 38*S and London at 51*N. Longer sunlight hours in Summer so far North..... but really ! the same climate ? Melbourne Summer mean maximum 25.8c, London 22.6c. Melbourne mean winter maximum 14.9c, London 5.33c.
Winter minimum average for Winter, Melbourne 7.6c, London 2.4c.
But it's the extremes that really sets the two cities apart..... Melbourne is renowned for extended heatwaves followed by dramatic temperature drops and changeable weather... all time max of 46.4c and quite a few days most summers above 40c. ( and a few below 20c too ) It is this desert like heat that affects many cooler climate palm species in Southern Victoria that thrive otherwise. London can and does get periods of extended heat, the good old blocking high pressure systems of recent years in particular. My father spent time in London in the '70's and he complained about the heat and humidity....
And Melbourne, despite what Aussies think, does not experience extreme cold.... sure, some winters are cold, wet and gloomy ( by Aussie standards ), but a sub 10c max is rare nowadays. Record low max is 4.4c 120 years ago and record minimum is -2.8c 150 years ago. London winters way colder on average, and the extreme minimums and prolonged winter low maximums don't sound real 'palmy' to us outsiders.... but as I said previously.... I'm not there....
So yes, I question the Koppen Classification here as being realistic.
Same as the Zone maps for gardening/ planting.... I can't imagine Melbourne or Albany as a Zone 10 or Perth a Zone 11
Anyway.... push the palmyness zones, see how yow you go.... pray there wont be a 1962/63 winter again.....

 

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petiole10
6 hours ago, sandgroper said:

and to the original poster whom I feel quite sorry for as he comes across as a decent person and I wish him well with his experiments. 

Yes I do as well :)   Despite a few efforts to steer it back to the civilized intent of the topic and discuss the possibilities of marginal palms as listed in the topic (and which efforts have largely been ignored), it has instead become a testosterone fuelled 'my dad is bigger and better then your dad' type of  mud throwing contest littered with ad hominem over who has the best/worst weather types !

19 minutes ago, greysrigging said:

Melbourne Summer mean maximum 25.8c, London 22.6c. Melbourne mean winter maximum 14.9c, London 5.33c.
Winter minimum average for Winter, Melbourne 7.6c, London 2.4c.

Yes indeed, the SE of England has quite some way to go before it can get close to the Melbourne experience. One can dream though!

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

And when I did fight back against the bias nonsense,

That is the precise problem unfortunately - too much 'fighting' in this thread and not enough respectful on topic discussion...

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petiole10

Ok, a shift here ...all this discussion about the UK climate doesn't welcome migration of pests!

I have found a dead weevil under my gazebo outside when doing some end of season tidying up...and would very much like to have some idea what it might be ..? Especially palm related!

 

SAM_1910.thumb.JPG.28f3b3a73c5a294da64bffda37a4dcf7.JPG

 

 

 

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John in Andalucia
4 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Melbourne mean winter maximum 14.9c, London 5.33c.

I'm afraid your London mean winter maximum is about by about this much:

3-degrees.jpg.4f8900d9d20079a68367c16539ed42fc.jpg

 

 

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Silas_Sancona
2 hours ago, petiole10 said:

Ok, a shift here ...all this discussion about the UK climate doesn't welcome migration of pests!

I have found a dead weevil under my gazebo outside when doing some end of season tidying up...and would very much like to have some idea what it might be ..? Especially palm related!

 

SAM_1910.thumb.JPG.28f3b3a73c5a294da64bffda37a4dcf7.JPG

 

 

 

Not a weevil, or anything close.   The insect in the picture is more closely alligned with Asassin, Stink, and Wheel bugs ( Hemiptera family ) than Beetles ( Coleoptera family ) Use their " beak " to suck plant juices. Beetles typically have mandables for chewing. 

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petiole10
23 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not a weevil, or anything close.   The insect in the picture is more closely alligned with Asassin, Stink, and Wheel bugs ( Hemiptera family ) than Beetles ( Coleoptera family ) Use their " beak " to suck plant juices. Beetles typically have mandables for chewing. 

Ok, well thank you. I will freely admit I am not an expert on insects, but would still rather know what something is than not. I'd much rather be highly inaccurate than accurate in this type of context - there are enough threats on our environment as it is and it seems sensible to check on things when uncertain about them. Especially as this 'bug' was found next to one of my Canary Date Palms....

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TexasColdHardyPalms

The low temperature argument in this thread is asinine.  Our record low is -18C and have dropped to -11& -12C twice in the last 10 years.  Does that mean we aren't humid subtropical or not in the top 10 hottest major Metro climates in the US?  

FYI queen palms are not winter hardy here.

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/US/hottest-cities.php

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UK_Palms
40 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

The low temperature argument in this thread is asinine.  Our record low is -18C and have dropped to -11& -12C twice in the last 10 years.  Does that mean we aren't humid subtropical or not in the top 10 hottest major Metro climates in the US?  

FYI queen palms are not winter hardy here.

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/US/hottest-cities.php

I don't understand the context of this comment. Obviously Texas in general is a pretty hot climate, year round... as is Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. Except during freak cold snaps, in the more northern regions of the state. But I would still consider you guys sub tropical, due to your year-round heat and high averages. I don't think anyone would be disputing that. 

But that PalmsNC guy was claiming that Raleigh is subtropical and in the same sentence, claiming that London is not subtropical in any capacity. It just seems really ironic, given that Raleigh has seen lows of -16C and -13C the past two winters! To put it into perspective, Thurso in the far north of Scotland at 58N, has NEVER dropped below -11C. So how on earth can somewhere like Raleigh or NYC be considered subtropical when you can't get any subtropical flora through an average winter in these locations, except maybe Sabal Minor. 

I suppose we might as well say that Toronto is subtropical then, since they average higher temperatures than London during summer and are also humid continental. Never mind the winter temperatures in places such as Toronto, NYC, Raleigh etc, which stops you keeping anything subtropical alive there during winter. I suppose as long as it is warm enough during the hotter half of the year, then it constitutes a sub tropical climate. That's the notion people are making.

Again, the more I compare these 'subtropical' places such as NYC and Raleigh, the more I am seeing London and southern England as subtropical. Despite people claiming that nowhere in England is subtropical. But again, where are the big CIDP's, Chamaerops & Washies in NYC or Raleigh.... :hmm:  

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John in Andalucia
23 hours ago, B87 said:

NYC is classified as subtropical because it has hot, sunny, and stormy summers.

I'm just cherry picking here..

NYC - firstly, the correct denotation is 'humid subtropical'. Secondly, NYC has, "average winter temperatures at the coldest limit of climates classed as humid subtropical."

It therefore follows that Cornwall in SW England (UK), going forwards, is accepted by it's borderline definition of subtropical. 

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PalmsNC
8 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

I don't understand the context of this comment. Obviously Texas in general is a pretty hot climate, year round... as is Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. Except during freak cold snaps, in the more northern regions of the state. But I would still consider you guys sub tropical, due to your year-round heat and high averages. I don't think anyone would be disputing that. 

But that PalmsNC guy was claiming that Raleigh is subtropical and in the same sentence, claiming that London is not subtropical in any capacity. It just seems really ironic, given that Raleigh has seen lows of -16C and -13C the past two winters! To put it into perspective, Thurso in the far north of Scotland at 58N, has NEVER dropped below -11C. So how on earth can somewhere like Raleigh or NYC be considered subtropical when you can't get any subtropical flora through an average winter in these locations, except maybe Sabal Minor. 

I suppose we might as well say that Toronto is subtropical then, since they average higher temperatures than London during summer and are also humid continental. Never mind the winter temperatures in places such as Toronto, NYC, Raleigh etc, which stops you keeping anything subtropical alive there during winter. I suppose as long as it is warm enough during the hotter half of the year, then it constitutes a sub tropical climate. That's the notion people are making.

Again, the more I compare these 'subtropical' places such as NYC and Raleigh, the more I am seeing London and southern England as subtropical. Despite people claiming that nowhere in England is subtropical. But again, where are the big CIDP's, Chamaerops & Washies in NYC or Raleigh.... :hmm:  

Once more we have native Sabal minor less than 60 miles away and it used to range even closer before farmland wrecked its range. Raleigh has warmer winters than London with a very very long warm season . May- September is 80+ almost every day . Late June to early August is 90+ almost every day. April-October almost every day is 70+ March -November 60+....  also the powerful summer tropical thunderstorms formed by convection and the high dew-points ... our summers are tropical . We have an actual season that could be considered tropical ... London doesn’t . 

 

once more there is a plethora of subtropical species in Raleigh just not the ones you are looking for.

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greysrigging
6 hours ago, John in Andalucia said:

I'm afraid your London mean winter maximum is about by about this much:

3-degrees.jpg.4f8900d9d20079a68367c16539ed42fc.jpg

 

 

You are right.... I've read the wrong line on the chart.... it is 8.3c ave over the 3 winter months.

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UK_Palms
4 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Once more we have native Sabal minor less than 60 miles away and it used to range even closer before farmland wrecked its range. Raleigh has warmer winters than London with a very very long warm season . May- September is 80+ almost every day . Late June to early August is 90+ almost every day. April-October almost every day is 70+ March -November 60+....  also the powerful summer tropical thunderstorms formed by convection and the high dew-points ... our summers are tropical . We have an actual season that could be considered tropical ... London doesn’t . 

 

once more there is a plethora of subtropical species in Raleigh just not the ones you are looking for.

Yeah but you also have a record low of -23C and have seen winter lows of -16C and -13C in the past two years! You have to be absolutely deluded to state that you are subtropical, while at the same time insisting that London is not subtropical, when we saw -2C last year. That is the issue I have. If you said that neither were subtropical, then we wouldn't be having this debate. 

I mean statistically speaking, you are hotter than the Canary Islands for 8 months of the year. And Hilo in Hawaii. But you still can't get subtropical species through a winter in Raleigh, due to your winter lows. That is the point I am making. I experience temperatures close to 100F most summers here now, but it doesn't mean that I live in a hot, desert climate, or subtropical climate. I accept that I am still a temperate, oceanic climate (even if we border on warm Mediterranean climate some years). 

Yet saying that, I can actually grow many subtropical species here as they survive our winters. So I can actually grow subtropical species year-round here, which thrive! Whereas you won't be able to do that in your back yard. So who really lives in a 'subtropical' climate? I actually find this concept truly baffling. Especially when there are Musa Basjoo banana plants growing year-round in London, which do not lose their foliage. Again, something you cannot do in Raleigh. The same applies to the CIDP, Chamaerops, Washy's and cacti growing here. All subtropical species that you cannot grow. Yet you're apparently a subtropical climate, whereas I am not... :hmm:

I mean there aren't any subtropical species surviving the winters in Raleigh. You have species endemic to a continental climate, including Sabal Minor. But not a 'subtropical' climate. What is even remotely tropical about species which can survive temps below -20C. Again, I am baffled by this rhetoric, and the fact that places like NYC and Raleigh can even be listed as 'subtropical'.

Absolute madness. 

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sipalms
7 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

You have species endemic to a continental climate, including Sabal Minor. But not a 'subtropical' climate. What is even remotely tropical about species which can survive temps below -20C. Again,

Ah... yes..... but in the same token, Chamaerops Humilis has a cold hardiness of -15 yet is native to the Mediterranean... so by the same reasoning... that makes places in the Mediterranean have a non-Mediterranean climate, right? I mean if Sabal minor is native to North Carolina but has a cold hardiness of -15-20, and you're saying that means NC is not subtropical, surely you should apply that to the areas where chamaerops comes from...........

I reckon in this entire argument, rather than get technical about what this scientist and that scientist say, and this university and that university say, and this climate definition and that climate definition say, you could just ask a sample of 1000 holidaymakers from a balance of different countries the following questions.

I think the answers would be pretty straightforward based on people's opinions and feelings of temperature, humidity, vegetation and so on.

 

Does London feel have a Mediterranean climate?  =  No? Who on earth said that? The sun hardly comes out for goodness' sake!

Does Los Angeles have a Mediterranean climate?  =  Yes, sure looks and feels like it! 

Does southeast UK have a subtropical climate?  =  No, but it definitely seems warmer and more lush than the rest of UK.

Does Canary Islands have a subtropical climate?  =  Yes!

Does North Carolina have a subtropical climate?  =  Well it definitely feels like it for most of the year! But you should feel how cold it gets sometimes!

Does Christchurch have a subtropical climate?  =  No way! You'd need to go to Kerikeri for that!

Does Christchurch have a Mediterranean climate?  =  No Way! You'd need to go to Napier for that!

 

This is all very hypothetical but you'd have to agree this is what people would say and think.

But of course this is no help to people trying to grow borderline plants. Just keeping the discussion open.

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GottmitAlex

I see this is neverending bickering and quarrel.

I say, zone pushers: cut the talk and be of action, empirical.

Zone statists: give the zone pushers a break. As yours truly, they're enthusiastic and hopeful. They are being reasonable, not fanciful.  

Gott mit uns

Alex

Edited by GottmitAlex

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UK_Palms
17 minutes ago, sipalms said:

Ah... yes..... but in the same token, Chamaerops Humilis has a cold hardiness of -15 yet is native to the Mediterranean... so by the same reasoning... that makes places in the Mediterranean have a non-Mediterranean climate, right? I mean if Sabal minor is native to North Carolina but has a cold hardiness of -15-20, and you're saying that means NC is not subtropical, surely you should apply that to the areas where chamaerops comes from...........

I reckon in this entire argument, rather than get technical about what this scientist and that scientist say, and this university and that university say, and this climate definition and that climate definition say, you could just ask a sample of 1000 holidaymakers from a balance of different countries the following questions.

I think the answers would be pretty straightforward based on people's opinions and feelings of temperature, humidity, vegetation and so on.

 

Does London feel have a Mediterranean climate?  =  No? Who on earth said that? The sun hardly comes out for goodness' sake!

Does Los Angeles have a Mediterranean climate?  =  Yes, sure looks and feels like it! 

Does southeast UK have a subtropical climate?  =  No, but it definitely seems warmer and more lush than the rest of UK.

Does Canary Islands have a subtropical climate?  =  Yes!

Does North Carolina have a subtropical climate?  =  Well it definitely feels like it for most of the year! But you should feel how cold it gets sometimes!

Does Christchurch have a subtropical climate?  =  No way! You'd need to go to Kerikeri for that!

Does Christchurch have a Mediterranean climate?  =  No Way! You'd need to go to Napier for that!

 

This is all very hypothetical but you'd have to agree this is what people would say and think.

But of course this is no help to people trying to grow borderline plants. Just keeping the discussion open.

 

Nah, I'm sorry but the southeast of England is edging towards a mild, or temperate, Mediterranean climate. I mean how can you have 10 weeks of drought, without a single drop of rainfall during summer 2018. Combined with average highs of 85F that July. And only 16 inches of rainfall for the entire of 2018. Followed by a low of -2C that winter. Then another big spring drought, with no rain for 7 weeks, followed by highs of 100F the following summer. With rainfall totals for 2019 still only around 15 inches at present. If that isn't Mediterranean, I don't know what is. Irrespective of the lower sunlight levels. And it is leaning more and more towards these conditions each year. 

It's definitely not warm-hot Mediterranean climate like in parts of southern Europe, CA or Australia. It's more of a temperate Mediterranean climate these days. The southeast is between a temperate, oceanic climate vs a warm summer mediterranean climate. Very hard to categorise these days due to the climatic shift that has been occurring. I have Phoenix Dactylifera growing outdoors year round here. And Washingtonia Robusta, Filibusta & Filifera. As well as Butia & Jubaea. And Queens. Not to mention flowering cacti. Rainfall is light and low in general across the year, with intermittent droughts. Winters are mild and summers are warm, to hot on occasions, allowing for good growth during warmer months. Those conditions are more favourable for subtropical species than the places in question listed as 'subtropical'. Primarily due to the mild winters.

And if we are calling Raleigh's climate 'subtropical', then Christchurch where you are has to be considered subtropical too. You guys are mild-warm and can grow tons of exotic, subtropical species. Just like the extreme southwest of England where they grow Bangalows, for Pete's sake. I know you grow them too in Christchurch. My point is, how many Bangalows are growing in 'subropical' NYC or Raleigh?

 

IMG_2745.jpg

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sipalms

@UK_Palms - That picture is of New Zealand mainland Nikau (not bangalow). Which are native to here and can be found in the wild not far from here.

But there's no way on earth anyone that lives, visits, or studies the climate of Christchurch could call it 'subtropical'. We're at 43 degrees S for pete's sake.

Yes , here you can find bangalows, Queens, washingtonias, bouganvillea etc year round established in certain parts of the city. But we're not mediterranean, subtropical - just humble old temperate oceanic with just enough proximity to ocean to prevent temps from dipping below -7 as a record. The heat figures are far from exciting.

Even Auckland has only really been recently considered as subtropical. Here's an extract from the national encyclopedia of NZ -

"At 36º 51' latitude, Auckland lies in a transition zone between subtropical and temperate. Its climate is warm and moderately wet, with few or no frosts and no snow. ... Auckland city has an average annual rainfall of 1,210 millimetres, and 2,003 annual hours of sunshine."

Yet Auckland has the following;

  • Almost every type of common tropical/subtropical palm, planted en masse (apart from coconut and other heat demanding species e.g. bismarkia or royals)
  • Native pinnate palm (Nikau mainland, barrier island varieties)
  • Native pandanus
  • Native mangroves
  • Native subtropical hardwood (called pohutukawa)
  • Bananas (although not commercially produced)
  • Citrus including oranges/lemons/mandarins/grapefruit and more
  • Wineries
  • Commercial olive groves
  • Hot climate/subtropical grass (like bermuda, called kikuyu)
  • Norfolk island pines everywhere

Going by the vegetation - if you visited Auckland in mid summer you could be forgiven for thinking you were in Hawaii, particularly with the volcanoes. Yet it is really a borderline subtropical according to most sources from here.

Edited by sipalms
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UK_Palms

If anyone is in central London and planning to go visit the Natural History museum, there are several CIDP's growing close to the front entrance. They have grown pretty well in just a short amount of time, having endured the past 2-3 winters there, planted as small palms. There are a number of other palms and exotics nearby as well, blended in to the environment. Chamaerops Humilis in particular seems to thrive here. 

Interesting to see how stuff like this will effect the atmosphere and skyline of London in the years to come. The Natural History museum is a major landmark attraction. The 4th most popular in London so people will be taking note of this sort of stuff, especially when they start getting big. 

It seems people are now planting them in yards, in less than ideal positions, and not realising how big they get here still, until it's too late. So they just hack the fronds back...

planters-april-18-pr-full-width.jpg.thumb.1920.1920.jpg

PcanariensisCC-BY-SA-2.0TorbayPalms-300x295.jpg

DdgWddwW4AERtpv.jpg

3112c210-0c80-4b6f-a653-b17a675d5c1b (1).jpg

Screen Shot 2019-10-16 at 03.18.47.jpg

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GottmitAlex
5 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

If anyone is in central London and planning to go visit the Natural History museum, there are several CIDP's growing close to the front entrance. They have grown pretty well in just a short amount of time, having endured the past 2-3 winters there, planted as small palms. There are a number of other palms and exotics nearby as well, blended in to the environment. Chamaerops Humilis in particular seems to thrive here. 

Interesting to see how stuff like this will effect the atmosphere and skyline of London in the years to come. The Natural History museum is a major landmark attraction. The 4th most popular in London so people will be taking note of this sort of stuff, especially when they start getting big. 

It seems people are now planting them in yards, in less than ideal positions, and not realising how big they get here still, until it's too late. So they just hack the fronds back...

planters-april-18-pr-full-width.jpg.thumb.1920.1920.jpg

PcanariensisCC-BY-SA-2.0TorbayPalms-300x295.jpg

DdgWddwW4AERtpv.jpg

3112c210-0c80-4b6f-a653-b17a675d5c1b (1).jpg

Screen Shot 2019-10-16 at 03.18.47.jpg

It's all about the microclimate. In your case, south facing, pavement/cement close by and drainage.  

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RJ

One thing to keep in mind in the popcorn discussion:

 

An old fiend of mine who was a forester told me when I was zone pushing deciduous trees up by the 45th. He said; "Trees will grow anywhere they can get away with it, they're opportunistic". I think the same holds true for palms. 

What you can take aware from this in this back and forth pissing match is. Palms that may perhaps grow in another climate that are native to a different climate doesn't make a climate. :crying:

Just because CIDP's, robusta's, or whatever grow in the UK or the PNW doesn't make that climate anything other then it is: Temperate maritime. Climate makes Climate, Palms don't make climate. 

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TexasColdHardyPalms
14 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Yeah but you also have a record low of -23C and have seen winter lows of -16C and -13C in the past two years! You have to be absolutely deluded to state that you are subtropical, while at the same time insisting that London is not subtropical, when we saw -2C last year. That is the issue I have. If you said that neither were subtropical, then we wouldn't be having this debate.  

Yet saying that, I can actually grow many subtropical species here as they survive our winters. So I can actually grow subtropical species year-round here, which thrive! Whereas you won't be able to do that in your back yard. So who really lives in a 'subtropical' climate? I actually find this concept truly baffling. Especially when there are Musa Basjoo banana plants growing year-round in London, which do not lose their foliage. Again, something you cannot do in Raleigh. The same applies to the CIDP, Chamaerops, Washy's and cacti growing here. All subtropical species that you cannot grow. Yet you're apparently a subtropical climate, whereas I am not... :hmm:

I mean there aren't any subtropical species surviving the winters in Raleigh. You have species endemic to a continental climate, including Sabal Minor. But not a 'subtropical' climate. What is even remotely tropical about species which can survive temps below -20C. Again, I am baffled by this rhetoric, and the fact that places like NYC and Raleigh can even be listed as 'subtropical'.

Absolute madness. 

To my earlier point in a few posts ago. Like Raleigh, I cannot grow musa or ensete without 100% defoliation in dallas either.  This discusion point has no baring on a subtropical climate. 

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PalmsNC
1 hour ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

To my earlier point in a few posts ago. Like Raleigh, I cannot grow musa or ensete without 100% defoliation in dallas either.  This discusion point has no baring on a subtropical climate. 

Summer heat and actual tropical weather determine subropicality not one or 2 random nights a year ! There’s many cold islands like England that may never hit -10 or some crap but will have average summer highs in 60s and 70s like the uk does. Short warm season, very very weak.

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petiole10
24 minutes ago, PalmsNC said:

 There’s many cold islands like England that may never hit -10 or some crap but will have average summer highs in 60s and 70s like the uk does. Short warm season, very very weak.

I have disagreed completely with all the sub tropical exaggerations and trying to turn ideals into realities of the UK as an all-comers palm paradise. But at the other extreme of this polarized and tiresome  tribal argument that has obliterated the central purpose of the discussion that the OP raised - the captioned extract is just as inaccurate and unhelpful. And merely serves to perpetuate the problem

This isn't a 'cold island'   It has a temperate maritime climate -  irrespective of which palms with a degree of hardiness grow well most especially the furthest south one heads.

Its very disappointing, as a new member, that one of very few (if any other ?) threads to discuss UK palms that does exist at this time, is rife with tiresome, macho one-upmanship and parodying of climate types. Whilst virtually every other thread on this very good site that covers the US and other countries is respectful, pleasant and interesting to read... 

But this certainly isn't the fault of the OP

Back to just reading and maybe something much better and more grown up might arrive with time...

 

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PalmatierMeg

I'm new to this discussion but my research tells me the following:

1) The UK has a Temperate Maritime climate: not Subtropical, not Mediterranean, not Continental. Not overly warm in summer, not arctic cold in winter. Once-in-a-decade/century heat and cold spells aside, that's what it is.

2) The Eastern half of the US up into Canada and down to the FL Keys has some of the most extreme temperature ranges in the world. That is because there are no geographical barriers between it and the Arctic, i.e., no ocean, no east-west mountain ranges to block winter cold fronts, actually no mountain ranges at all between the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains both of which run north-south. And the Appalachians are worn down. All that open land provides an expressway for Arctic cold to plunge south in winter. That cold makes FL, outwardly tropical 10 months of the year, a subtropical climate. My uber tropical container garden can attest to that.

3) Eastern and Midwest US summers are brutally hot and humid and punctuated by violent thunderstorms. It can get hotter in the Middle Atlantic than in FL at times. Raleigh, NC summers place that location in a subtropical category much of the year. But Raleigh in Jan. is not subtropical and becomes the winter ice storm capital of the nation. Summers in the Mid-West are also extremely hot and often humid. But no one of reason considers Iowa subtropical. And a few sweltering days in July in no way prove New York or Boston are subtropical. 

4) A century ago British diplomats stationed in Washington DC were told they were being sent to a "tropical hardship post" because of the city's notorious summers (no a/c then). No info available on how they viewed Washington's unpredictable winters.

5) What, then, is subtropical in the US? I would say the deep southern states along the Atlantic and Gulf Coast through East Texas, Polar Vortex permitting. But a couple of hot months in summer followed by months of Arctic Expresses in winter do not constitute a subtropical climate. For every Arctic Express that hits FL, ten will freeze Missouri.

6) The problem I'm seeing here is everyone is looking for absolutes. But there are none to be found. I could argue SWFL has a mediterranean climate because 4-5 months of the year it is warm during the day (usually), cool/chilly at night (ditto) and dry. Typical coastal CA weather, right? Last summer Europe had a spell of brutally hot and sunny weather. Aha! The UK is now subtropical! Except I've visited England and Wales in late June and experienced high/lows of low 70s/low 50s (England) and low 60s/mid40s (Wales). Those are average to below normal winter temps here.

No absolutes, right or wrong. Only perceptions.

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