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Palmsofengland

London’s palmy potential

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sipalms

Hmmm....... fair call. In that case there are Queens 'taking off in London'........ I was just more interested in photos of some that actually have several years under their belt and are trunking etc.

Anyways, I rest my case. 

Some times we let our imaginations and fantasy turn into a perceived reality.

Normally I detest being cynical... but in line with continuing the comedic banter, here's some pictures of Southern UK in a 'few years time'. (Under very abnormal grey skies)

Kensington Mall

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Fulham

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Brixton

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Southsea

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Naturalisation occurring in Hyde Park

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Looking towards the Isle of Wight from Southsea

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And finally a slightly more sunny Isle of Wight looking out on the Atlantic

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Sometimes we have to laugh :-)

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GottmitAlex
15 hours ago, Really full garden said:

I say go for it ! to the zone pushers. There are many factors beyond just climate . It takes decades for the general population to accept changes in public landscaping. I would imagine people with private garden spaces in central London are minimal. This means any large scale palm plantings would involve public spaces and public funds.

 

Hear, hear!

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Palmsofengland

My updated list, in terms of palms that I am going to try first is:

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaedorea microspadix

Parajubaea T.V.T

Brahea edulis

Trachycarpus latisectus 

Butyagrus (Mule Palm)

Livistona australis 

Caryota maxima Himalaya 

phoenix rupicola

Phoenix reclinata 

phoenix sylvestris

Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana 

Rhopalostylis sapida 

ceroxylon quindiuense

ceroxylon parvifrons 

Ceroxylon ventricosum

arenga engleri

parajubaea tvt 

parajubaea cocoides

  Brahea edulis

syagrus romanzoffiana ‘Santa catarina’

Phoenix roebelenii

Strelitzia Nicolai

I intend to try the others (+Hedyscepe Canterburyana, which I didn’t mention previously) as although some of them might be long shots, I don’t think anyone has really tested the majority of them in a sheltered London micro-climate. I maintain that I believe that there are micro-climates in the UHI against south-facing walls in London that remain basically frost-free and rarely drop below 32; in the Chelsea Physic garden I have seen pictures of Dracaena Draco and Pandanus Amaryllifolius growing outside, and these really can’t take much cold at all in our damp winters. However, I appreciate that the main issue may be the extended cool period, rather than actual minima, although I think most palms here have an element of cold-hardiness and cool tolerance. It is just a matter of testing the waters and getting some experience on what works in London’s climate specifically because, as others have pointed out, a couple of decades ago people thought that P.Canariensis were no-goers and now quite large specimens are relatively common, so maybe I can surprise myself.

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John in Andalucia
8 hours ago, sipalms said:

Some times we let our imaginations and fantasy turn into a perceived reality.

And finally a slightly more sunny Isle of Wight looking out on the Atlantic

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Sometimes we have to laugh :-)

Certainly, your comment about the Isle of Wight looking out onto the 'Atlantic' - by the stretching of your own imagination, is hilarious! :lol:

London may not be 'palmy', but it doesn't follow that if you can successfully grow palms in your town or city, you set out to dominate the landscape - if that is your perception of 'palmy'.

Similar to the controversy with Virginia Beach, it's more about native planting and local perceptions. Florida and California are 'palmy' because palms are native to these regions.

London is an inland metropolis where palm plantings are more iconic, but where those who choose to plant palm trees outside do so..

 

London! Where the palm growers dwell

Where the Phoenix live and they do live well!

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petiole10

Ultimately, the micro climate of London is not a reflection of the greater part of the UK.

But even in London, some of those in that list will be fine for two thirds of the year, but will struggle inevitably sooner or later in the winter.  On the south coast, which is a close enough match to the UHI effects of London, I have a Phoenix Roebelenii which was damaged by me being caught out by the lightest of frosts, barely a degree below freezing, and that came at the end of a very mild winter with scarcely a ground frost. . It took about two to three years to recover and whilst it is returned to health now, the previous loss of foliage and legacy of damage has detracted from its fully graceful appearance.  Since then it comes in ahead of any risk of frost and stays inside during the winter months assisted by a grow-lamp along with other house-plants  This palm is a good example that would also apply to many others in the list in my opinion

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As potted specimens they can be moved easily indoors, or to very sheltered places out of frost. So its quite possible to try many of these as long as they are treated like tender plants.  

I think its a very good thing to encourage palm ownership as much as possible, but personally I I wouldn't plant very marginal species out permanently  - though its an individual decision.

 

 

 

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Palmsofengland
9 minutes ago, petiole10 said:

Ultimately, the micro climate of London is not a reflection of the greater part of the UK.

But even in London, some of those in that list will be fine for two thirds of the year, but will struggle inevitably sooner or later in the winter.  On the south coast, which is a close enough match to the UHI effects of London, I have a Phoenix Roebelenii which was damaged by me being caught out by the lightest of frosts, barely a degree below freezing, and that came at the end of a very mild winter with scarcely a ground frost. . It took about two to three years to recover and whilst it is returned to health now, the previous loss of foliage and legacy of damage has detracted from its fully graceful appearance.  Since then it comes in ahead of any risk of frost and stays inside during the winter months assisted by a grow-lamp along with other house-plants  This palm is a good example that would also apply to many others in the list in my opinion

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As potted specimens they can be moved easily indoors, or to very sheltered places out of frost. So its quite possible to try many of these as long as they are treated like tender plants.  

I think its a very good thing to encourage palm ownership as much as possible, but personally I I wouldn't plant very marginal species out permanently  - though its an individual decision.

 

 

 

I know what you mean as I have seen a couple of pictures of some quite sorry-looking roebelenii in the south of England, but the reason I include it is because during the cold winter of 2018 (Beast from the East)I saw a 6 foot roebelenii in perfect condition, potted and outside a Kebab shop near Marble Arch. The owner was Lebanese I think and said he kept it outside all year round and had done for years, and given how heavy it looked and his surprise that it was quite tender, I have to say that I believe him. I believe they moved it since then as it was beginning to look more impressive and attracting the attention of local thieves who often steal this type of thing.

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petiole10
20 minutes ago, Palmsofengland said:

I know what you mean as I have seen a couple of pictures of some quite sorry-looking roebelenii in the south of England, but the reason I include it is because during the cold winter of 2018 (Beast from the East)I saw a 6 foot roebelenii in perfect condition, potted and outside a Kebab shop near Marble Arch. The owner was Lebanese I think and said he kept it outside all year round and had done for years, and given how heavy it looked and his surprise that it was quite tender, I have to say that I believe him. I believe they moved it since then as it was beginning to look more impressive and attracting the attention of local thieves who often steal this type of thing.

Its quite possible that more mature specimens in such a well sheltered and modified environment will fare better. I purchased my own palm from a house plant supplier in Germany for 30 euros about 7 years back and its possible that it had been artificially stimulated to grow quickly for retail purposes. This leaves them a bit weaker initially and may have had something to do with the susceptibility to only the lightest of frosts. It also proved to be scorched far too easily by even smallest amounts of direct sunlight at the opposite season of the year when outdoors..

These past two summers outdoors it has shown better and better accommodation to outside conditions and the foliage less anaemic. So probably the method of rearing is a factor here that might determine how much the plants natural tenderness/level of hardiness is amplified when still a young speciment.  This will apply to others on your list probably as well :)

One palm that should be grown more widely over here is Jubaea. These are hardier than CIDP for example, yet they are scarcely seem anywhere. There is a large specimen at the local exotics supplier that is being sold for £350. Its been there for quite a time. The manager said that next year they are going to order small palms of this species to encourage more people to buy these wonderful palms. I am getting on the order list!

As for brahea edulis, there is also a large individual for sale that has been there for quite some time -  it is being advertised on the basis of requiring extra care in winter

 

Edited by petiole10

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PalmCode

I know it's a true palm but have you tried growing or seen any Cordyline Australis in London? that maybe good starting point. Next I'd try syagrus romanzoffiana. Rhopalostylis sapida chatham island might be well worth a try also. If you can get you hands on any. Good luck.

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Palmsofengland
1 hour ago, petiole10 said:

Its quite possible that more mature specimens in such a well sheltered and modified environment will fare better. I purchased my own palm from a house plant supplier in Germany for 30 euros about 7 years back and its possible that it had been artificially stimulated to grow quickly for retail purposes. This leaves them a bit weaker initially and may have had something to do with the susceptibility to only the lightest of frosts. It also proved to be scorched far too easily by even smallest amounts of direct sunlight at the opposite season of the year when outdoors..

These past two summers outdoors it has shown better and better accommodation to outside conditions and the foliage less anaemic. So probably the method of rearing is a factor here that might determine how much the plants natural tenderness/level of hardiness is amplified when still a young speciment.  This will apply to others on your list probably as well :)

One palm that should be grown more widely over here is Jubaea. These are hardier than CIDP for example, yet they are scarcely seem anywhere. There is a large specimen at the local exotics supplier that is being sold for £350. Its been there for quite a time. The manager said that next year they are going to order small palms of this species to encourage more people to buy these wonderful palms. I am getting on the order list!

As for brahea edulis, there is also a large individual for sale that has been there for quite some time -  it is being advertised on the basis of requiring extra care in winter

 

Judaea probably should be grown more, as it  has been known to survive -17c in Montpellier and there are some giants in Yorkshire I think. People probably just don’t grow it much as it’s so slow growing. With regards to Brahea Edulis, I know there’s a large (although fairly recently planted) one in Penzance that survives without protection and there are also specimens in Toulouse (USDA 8B) which would indicate very good hardiness,  so I would think you’d be fine on the south coast without protection.

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Palmsofengland
1 hour ago, PalmCode said:

I know it's a true palm but have you tried growing or seen any Cordyline Australis in London? that maybe good starting point. Next I'd try syagrus romanzoffiana. Rhopalostylis sapida chatham island might be well worth a try also. If you can get you hands on any. Good luck.

Cordyline Australis is a very easy grow throughout much of southern England. I have seen some in London maybe 25-30ft tall. Thanks for the well wishes.

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petiole10

Anyway, on yet another dull wet day to add to the recent ones, though none of these are especially marginal - here is some of my own outdoor collection waiting for the sun to re-appear - hopefully tomorrow or Monday!

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And here are some more pics.... in the sunshine....773331075_SAM_1863(1).thumb.JPG.146b69cb3c87b3c44d97fdfcff5f3bfb.JPG

 

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NOT A TA
16 hours ago, Palmsofengland said:

My updated list, in terms of palms that I am going to try first is:

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaedorea microspadix

Parajubaea T.V.T

Brahea edulis

Trachycarpus latisectus 

Butyagrus (Mule Palm)

Livistona australis 

Caryota maxima Himalaya 

phoenix rupicola

Phoenix reclinata 

Trying all of them would be quite a task, so I'd start with the top ten and see how it goes. If you can get ^^^ these over the next year you can see how they'll do over the 2020-21 winter. Best of luck!

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NorCalKing
On 10/11/2019 at 12:45 PM, UK_Palms said:

The ignorance from people like yourself is unreal. We have clearly just moved into a wetter cycle at present, and October/November is statistically the wettest period of the year for the southeast anyway. Just like most Mediterranean regions, we also get a lot of rain at the autumn/fall. This is nothing unusual, anywhere in the world. It doesn't mean palms cannot grow well here, or not grow at all for that matter. The past week or two has been particularly wet however, compared to average. But my Dactylifera & Filifera doesn't seem fazed, put it that way. 

The issue is that you refuse to look at the bigger picture i.e. - rainfall totals below 20 inches, a 10 week long drought during summer 2018 and an 6 week drought during spring 2019. Temperatures pushing 100F in both years, winter temperatures always rebound above freezing during the day etc. But since the southeast of England experiences quite a bit of rain in autumn/fall, you use that to dismiss the climate as being crap and terrible for palms. A hardly fair or balanced conclusion by any means.

I never said it was a particularly warm or dry climate, rather I have been arguing that it is a better climate than people make out, especially around London, Surrey, Sussex, West Sussex & Kent. The pictures I have uploaded show that the southeast is warm-temperate and allows a lot of palms to grow. Clearly we are not blessed with the sun and heat of California, but we are still growing decent sized CIDP and Washingtonia here. Even Queen Palms are taking off in London. So cut out the biased nonsense about the London climate, just because we happen to be in our wettest period of the year right now and heading towards winter. And because you have heard all the stereotypes and propaganda...

Lmao!!! Talk about ignorance. I'm living in AN ACTUAL MEDITERRANEAN CLIMATE. Not some wishcasting Med wannabe climate. And for your ill-informed information TRUE mediterranean climates have wet WINTERS not autumn/fall. I was actually taking your side until you started to talk nonsense.

Again here's my forecast for an ACTUAL scientifically categorized Mediterranean climate. Notice all the rain? Yeah, thought so. Dude, you need to chill.

 

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UK_Palms
10 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

Lmao!!! Talk about ignorance. I'm living in AN ACTUAL MEDITERRANEAN CLIMATE. Not some wishcasting Med wannabe climate. And for your ill-informed information TRUE mediterranean climates have wet WINTERS not autumn/fall. I was actually taking your side until you started to talk nonsense.

Again here's my forecast for an ACTUAL scientifically categorized Mediterranean climate. Notice all the rain? Yeah, thought so. Dude, you need to chill.

 

I know you live in a true Mediterranean/semi-arid climate, but I don't see how that has any relevance to people growing palms around London and southern England, and those people that are zone pushing in this area. How does your comment benefit, or advise us? You're just trying to point score and make out that our own climate is crap, whereas your climate is so much better than ours. While I accept that is obviously true, since we live in a temperate oceanic climate, you're still being ignorant and arrogant about it.

Also, your statement that "true Mediterranean places have wet winters, NOT wet autumn/fall" is also incorrect. While all Mediterranean places experience wet winters, a lot of them have the bulk of their rainfall in the autumn/fall, between September-November. You are just looking at it from a Californian perspective, which is why you don't realise this. Barcelona, Marseille and Rome are prime examples of this. October is generally the wettest month of the year in these places. And all 3 of those Mediterranean places experience more annual rainfall than London. So are you going to suggest that those 3 places are not true Mediterranean climates because your own CA climate is far dryer and warmer...?

In order for somewhere to have a Mediterranean climate, it just has to experience a hot, dry summer as well as a wet winter. This is why I was suggesting that London is borderline Mediterranean climate some years, as we had a 10 week drought in summer 2018 and the average high that July was 85F. Rainfall totals were 16-20 inches for the year across the southeast. That would actually fall under warm-summer Mediterranean climate. Although I accept that London is generally an oceanic climate, not Mediterranean. But the palms growing and surviving here show that the climate is changing. It's definitely not as cold, wet or dreary as people make out, like in general. 

We are however in a very wet cycle right now though, having experienced continuous rain for 3-4 days now. This is genuinely one of the wettest starts to October that I can remember. But quite a few Mediterranean regions experience that too, in October, as I was saying...

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Palmsofengland
40 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

 

I know you live in a true Mediterranean/semi-arid climate, but I don't see how that has any relevance to people growing palms around London and southern England, and those people that are zone pushing in this area. How does your comment benefit, or advise us? You're just trying to point score and make out that our own climate is crap, whereas your climate is so much better than ours. While I accept that is obviously true, since we live in a temperate oceanic climate, you're still being ignorant and arrogant about it.

Also, your statement that "true Mediterranean places have wet winters, NOT wet autumn/fall" is also incorrect. While all Mediterranean places experience wet winters, a lot of them have the bulk of their rainfall in the autumn/fall, between September-November. You are just looking at it from a Californian perspective, which is why you don't realise this. Barcelona, Marseille and Rome are prime examples of this. October is generally the wettest month of the year in these places. And all 3 of those Mediterranean places experience more annual rainfall than London. So are you going to suggest that those 3 places are not true Mediterranean climates because your own CA climate is far dryer and warmer...?

In order for somewhere to have a Mediterranean climate, it just has to experience a hot, dry summer as well as a wet winter. This is why I was suggesting that London is borderline Mediterranean climate some years, as we had a 10 week drought in summer 2018 and the average high that July was 85F. Rainfall totals were 16-20 inches for the year across the southeast. That would actually fall under warm-summer Mediterranean climate. Although I accept that London is generally an oceanic climate, not Mediterranean. But the palms growing and surviving here show that the climate is changing. It's definitely not as cold, wet or dreary as people make out, like in general. 

We are however in a very wet cycle right now though, having experienced continuous rain for 3-4 days now. This is genuinely one of the wettest starts to October that I can remember. But quite a few Mediterranean regions experience that too, in October, as I was saying...

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Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire... the data from the central London station, under the Trewarthartha Climate classification, is right on the borderline of being Humid subtropical. 

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redbeard917
On 10/11/2019 at 6:26 AM, petiole10 said:

Yes - London indeed has palms, and proportionate to many parts of the UK they are certainly more commonly found - but London is not at all 'palmy' in the way that places in southern and some central parts of Europe are.

 I have a collection of about a dozen palms of different types but, as an exotics collector (and of plants in general) this doesn't mean it is representative of the norm within the location I live - which is one of the most favored parts of the country . I also still have to take precautionary steps to make sure they are trouble free in the winter - even in such a favored part of the country.  Many winters there is no such problem, but that doesn't mean the risk has gone away and it doesn't mean that conditions are anything like those of southern Europe which this thread, in places seems to be trying to make too many overstated comparisons.

Palms are common enough, in these most conducive parts of this country, which includes London, but pictures of palms surrounded by parched ground (which has historically never been unusual at all in warm summers ) doesn't make the reality any greater than it is, however much one might want it to.

As stated previously, this is a temperate, ocean driven climate that even with a background warming trend evident does not change the fact that palms still grow and survive the very best in the warmest most sheltered parts of the country.  The most hardy types such as Trachycarpus will survive well in most parts of the UK, but it remains a fact that less hardy species such as CIDP require some protection in any colder than average winter weather.  It might be possible to collect seed, and in that sense naturalize palms, but it remains the case that some kind of controlled assisted environment is required, even at times in the most favorable parts of the country. Which includes London.

A temperate environment by definition is not a Mediterranean one, so on that basis it is unrealistic to equate naturalization of a species between the two distinct types. The gap may be narrowing over time c/o background warming, and certainly the UK, especially the south, is becoming a 'warmer' temperate climate  - but direct comparisons cannot be made in terms of rearing and growing potential between the two for a species of plant such as CIDP that by definition, originated in southern Europe and North Africa (the Canary Islands) and is now trying to exist within a quite different latitude, and under quite different growing conditions at various times of the year. to that of their native home. The same applies to Washingtonia and other species of palm that come from quite different original climate and environment zones

 

 

I'd be very interested to know what palms you're growing there. And speaking of naturalization, I would bet there is a Sabal species or three that would try to gain a foothold if you gave them a chance. Plus Juania which I believe is grown in Ireland, and probably some mountainous Brahea, Chamaedoreas maybe even cycads would thrive.

I'm an Anglophile, have visited several times and love the history, people, and gardens. I've seen Cordyline australis used as a street tree as far north as Plockton. I'm into growing many things, not just palms, and find the range of plant life that grows well in the UK fascinating. I'd be willing to send some Sabal minor seed for someone to sow somewhere to see if it naturalized. I suspect bermudana and others would also do well but I don't have a seeding plant yet. Lastly, don't pay much mind to the ravings of the nuttier Californians, over here we've learned to tune most of them out.

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UK_Palms
13 minutes ago, redbeard917 said:

I'd be very interested to know what palms you're growing there. And speaking of naturalization, I would bet there is a Sabal species or three that would try to gain a foothold if you gave them a chance. Plus Juania which I believe is grown in Ireland, and probably some mountainous Brahea, Chamaedoreas maybe even cycads would thrive.

I'm an Anglophile, have visited several times and love the history, people, and gardens. I've seen Cordyline australis used as a street tree as far north as Plockton. I'm into growing many things, not just palms, and find the range of plant life that grows well in the UK fascinating. I'd be willing to send some Sabal minor seed for someone to sow somewhere to see if it naturalized. I suspect bermudana and others would also do well but I don't have a seeding plant yet. Lastly, don't pay much mind to the ravings of the nuttier Californians, over here we've learned to tune most of them out.

Chamaerops Humilis has set seed here in my garden, near Guildford. I have two females bearing seed and a collection of seedlings that are growing where some seeds dropped last autumn, after being pollenated by the Vulcano male. Due to the close proximity, I will probably dig the seedlings up and place them in pots in a few months time. I am tempted to place several of the offspring in the nearby woods, in a clearing, to see if they do well there. 

If enough people start growing Chamaerops, I am pretty sure they will naturalise in the southeast of England. I am already seeing signs of this here. Several other people have Chamaerops specimens on my street which could have pollenated my two even. I am seeing a lot of much larger specimens in Guildford as well now, bearing seed. 

One of the big Guildford CIDP's has also flowered this spring/summer. As has a Sabal Palmetto which is growing very well here. The biggest Chamaerops around town as well has big blooms. I will go to check the seeds tomorrow, if I can, and hopefully get some pictures. These palms did not exist here 15 years ago...

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petiole10
1 hour ago, redbeard917 said:

Lastly, don't pay much mind to the ravings of the nuttier Californians, over here we've learned to tune most of them out.

Hi - California is one part of the US I have not previously visited, along with parts of the mid west. But another stateside trip is something that I would hope to achieve at some time hopefully :)  It wasn't me actually who was commenting on the 'ravings' of any of the members from California, just simply trying to offer perspective of the UK (and London) climate wrt to growing palms which is somewhere in the middle of some of the proclamations that were being made !

In terms of palms that grow here, well my pics posted yesterday advertise some of them - CIDP,  Butia,  Chaemerops,  Trachycarpus, W & F,  and Washingtonia as I am in a favored southern part of the country.

. Plus these small Hesper palms, within my own collection - which I didn't post pics of yesterday and which are found in some of those parts of the US and Mexico I haven't visited!

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I would love to have some Sabals if they would grow, but I don't think that long term, despite the increasingly warm summers there is the amount of

guaranteed  sustained hot sunshine in our summers to make them thrive that exists stateside. Though admittedly  it would seem there is a hot-spot in the country some 60 miles north of me that I wasn't aware was quite as tropical and so maybe that is the place to grow them and then maybe even gravitate towards cocus nucifera...... :) 

I intend to obtain a Jubaea next Spring hopefully and that would then mean I have a decent range of palms that should comfortably co-exist and deal with what the UK climate puts their way 

I will leave others to test greater boundaries, and try to make sure that the palms under my care thrive to their maximum capacity :)

 

 

Edited by petiole10
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NorCalKing
3 hours ago, redbeard917 said:

Lastly, don't pay much mind to the ravings of the nuttier Californians, over here we've learned to tune most of them out.

OMG. You can't make this up. Someone from "Florida" the Walmart of US states taking a shot at Cali. Not to mention 60%-70% of this forum resides there. Dream on bro. Wouldn't live in your dank, muggy,  swamp if it was free. Enjoy your mosquito infested swamp lmao! Hmm, think I'll head to Yosemite next week, where you heading bro, Orlando? 

Cheers!

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GottmitAlex
3 hours ago, redbeard917 said:

Lastly, don't pay much mind to the ravings of the nuttier Californians, over here we've learned to tune most of them out.

Regards from a nuttier palmtalker (that's what I have been referred as. Well, coco-nutty. And I like it) in California.

 

 

 

15709936550388143443591292126474.jpg

Edited by GottmitAlex

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Ivorhooper
4 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Chamaerops Humilis has set seed here in my garden, near Guildford. I have two females bearing seed and a collection of seedlings that are growing where some seeds dropped last autumn, after being pollenated by the Vulcano male. Due to the close proximity, I will probably dig the seedlings up and place them in pots in a few months time. I am tempted to place several of the offspring in the nearby woods, in a clearing, to see if they do well there. 

If enough people start growing Chamaerops, I am pretty sure they will naturalise in the southeast of England. I am already seeing signs of this here. Several other people have Chamaerops specimens on my street which could have pollenated my two even. I am seeing a lot of much larger specimens in Guildford as well now, bearing seed. 

One of the big Guildford CIDP's has also flowered this spring/summer. As has a Sabal Palmetto which is growing very well here. The biggest Chamaerops around town as well has big blooms. I will go to check the seeds tomorrow, if I can, and hopefully get some pictures. These palms did not exist here 15 years ago...

Hi, don't suppose you have any pics of the flowering Palmetto? Didn't realise there were any big ones in the UK!

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
2 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

OMG. You can't make this up. Someone from "Florida" the Walmart of US states taking a shot at Cali. Not to mention 60%-70% of this forum resides there. Dream on bro. Wouldn't live in your dank, muggy,  swamp if it was free. Enjoy your mosquito infested swamp lmao! Hmm, think I'll head to Yosemite next week, where you heading bro, Orlando? 

Cheers!

Well considering I use to reside in the 2nd best place to grow palms in the US (Florida #1) I had no problems leaving the nutty infested people of California with ease. Yes I cant grow as many palms as I would like but ill definitely be able to grow a lot more palms in general with the ability to get acreage out this way for mere fraction of the price then Cali. With acreage I can grow zone pushing type palms under the canopy of large oaks or even a large greenhouse if I so choose. Calling out people from about where they live is just childish and frowned upon here on PT. So enjoy you high taxes, gas prices and over all expensive cost of living =)

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GottmitAlex
23 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Well considering I use to reside in the 2nd best place to grow palms in the US (Florida #1) I had no problems leaving the nutty infested people of California with ease. Yes I cant grow as many palms as I would like but ill definitely be able to grow a lot more palms in general with the ability to get acreage out this way for mere fraction of the price then Cali. With acreage I can grow zone pushing type palms under the canopy of large oaks or even a large greenhouse if I so choose. Calling out people from about where they live is just childish and frowned upon here on PT. So enjoy you high taxes, gas prices and over all expensive cost of living =)

I truly wish I had space. Here in the suburbs one can get a piece of land which consists of 8meters (street side) x 20meters (deep).  We got 2. But the second plot is basically for the vehicles and an outhouse bathroom.  What tropical-looking palms can grow in League city? ok better yet, what hardiness zone are you in?

Edited by GottmitAlex

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
1 minute ago, GottmitAlex said:

What tropical-looking palms can grow in League city? ok better yet, what hardiness zone are you in?

I'm zone 9a just outside of 9b being almost on the gulf coast. As far as tropical palms I can grow anything I want as long as I bring them in doors for the winter haha. Since moving here we had 2 back to back 9a winters with freezing rain that kicked my gardens @ss. Which made me go with conservative type palms for now for this area. So I have mule palms Bizzies and sabals growing which I call bullet proof type palms. Now I'm growing palms from seeds cause its much cheaper on the wallet if they were to die one day from some freak weather event.

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UK_Palms

Not exactly London, but check out these really old Trachycarpus's in my hometown. This is about 1 mile from my house. They must be at least 50 years old. The hedge behind them is about 10 foot tall, so a few of them Trachy's must be at least 40-45ft in height. All flowering and dropping seed aplenty, year round. 4 females, 2 males by the looks of things.  

That's just a typical place in rural, southern England nowadays. Hardly cold, wet or dreary like some people make out. There's bamboo, ferns, lilypads, wild/naturalised Cordylines, and palms all within view.

Someone just needs to plant a few CIDP within shot. And some Chamaerops on the river banks. Both of which would thrive here and set seed.

 

Screen Shot 2019-10-13 at 22.23.19 (1).jpg

Screen Shot 2019-10-13 at 22.27.26.jpg

Edited by UK_Palms
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GottmitAlex
4 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Not exactly London, but check out these really old Trachycarpus's in my hometown. This is about 1 mile from my house. They must be at least 50 years old. The hedge behind them is about 8 foot tall, so a few of them Trachy's must be at least 40-45ft in height. All flowering and dropping seed aplenty, year round. 4 females, 2 males by the looks of things.  

That's just a typical place in rural, southern England nowadays. Hardly cold, wet or dreary like some people make out. There's bamboo, ferns, lilypads, wild/naturalised Cordylines, and palms all within view.

Someone just needs to plant a few CIDP within shot. And some Chamaerops on the river banks. Both of which would thrive here and set seed. 

Screen Shot 2019-10-13 at 22.23.19.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-10-13 at 22.27.26.jpg

:greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb:

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redbeard917
3 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

OMG. You can't make this up. Someone from "Florida" the Walmart of US states taking a shot at Cali. Not to mention 60%-70% of this forum resides there. Dream on bro. Wouldn't live in your dank, muggy,  swamp if it was free. Enjoy your mosquito infested swamp lmao! Hmm, think I'll head to Yosemite next week, where you heading bro, Orlando? 

Cheers!

^Imagine being this person.

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redbeard917
6 hours ago, petiole10 said:

Hi - California is one part of the US I have not previously visited, along with parts of the mid west. But another stateside trip is something that I would hope to achieve at some time hopefully :)  It wasn't me actually who was commenting on the 'ravings' of any of the members from California, just simply trying to offer perspective of the UK (and London) climate wrt to growing palms which is somewhere in the middle of some of the proclamations that were being made !

In terms of palms that grow here, well my pics posted yesterday advertise some of them - CIDP,  Butia,  Chaemerops,  Trachycarpus, W & F,  and Washingtonia as I am in a favored southern part of the country.

. Plus these small Hesper palms, within my own collection - which I didn't post pics of yesterday and which are found in some of those parts of the US and Mexico I haven't visited!

SAM_1909.thumb.JPG.fa56a03fde953108841c23b34db9ffe7.JPGSAM_1908.thumb.JPG.b6537b0088c7e576471b94175052c0b3.JPGSAM_1907.thumb.JPG.3db43def88c96b5132e60fa56b5d042e.JPG

 

I would love to have some Sabals if they would grow, but I don't think that long term, despite the increasingly warm summers there is the amount of

guaranteed  sustained hot sunshine in our summers to make them thrive that exists stateside. Though admittedly  it would seem there is a hot-spot in the country some 60 miles north of me that I wasn't aware was quite as tropical and so maybe that is the place to grow them and then maybe even gravitate towards cocus nucifera...... :) 

I intend to obtain a Jubaea next Spring hopefully and that would then mean I have a decent range of palms that should comfortably co-exist and deal with what the UK climate puts their way 

I will leave others to test greater boundaries, and try to make sure that the palms under my care thrive to their maximum capacity :)

 

 

Interesting, thanks, good luck with yours and I hope to hear about other boundary pushers. I didn't mean to implicate you in my own editorializing nor dissuade you from visiting anywhere. I think Sabal bermudana might be worth a try since it's one of the northernmost species and also in a marine-influenced and maybe cooler climate. Unfortunately I have none to offer since mine isn't trunking yet, but anyone who wants some other Sabal seeds (minor or palmetto, and maybe Chamaedorea microspadix if I run across a seeding plant soon) feel free to message me. By the way, just a very uninformed guess, but I imagine a Washingtonia would have similar heat requirements as a Sabal and others, no?

Edited by redbeard917

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SubarcticUK
On 10/12/2019 at 7:12 PM, NorCalKing said:

Lmao!!! Talk about ignorance. I'm living in AN ACTUAL MEDITERRANEAN CLIMATE. Not some wishcasting Med wannabe climate. And for your ill-informed information TRUE mediterranean climates have wet WINTERS not autumn/fall. I was actually taking your side until you started to talk nonsense.

Again here's my forecast for an ACTUAL scientifically categorized Mediterranean climate. Notice all the rain? Yeah, thought so. Dude, you need to chill.

 

Screen Shot 2019-10-12 at 7.11.21 PM.png

 

Indeed! Here is the climate box for Portland, Oregon:

1612994707_Portland2014-18.thumb.png.e4955d1e0653dc4162010260366ae231.png

Look at how much warmer the spring, summer, and fall are than anywhere in the UK. Our average summer high is 10ºF warmer in Portland than it is in London using the climate box given in the first post.

In July of 2018 alone, we had 15 days above 90ºF/32ºC. That summer had 31 days above 90ºF/32ºC. Nowhere in the UK can come close to those sizzling summer statistics. Simply put, Portland is at 45.5ºN latitude while London is at 51.5ºN latitude. In addition, the precipitation follows a true Mediterranean pattern with almost completely dry midsummers and a winter wet season. In addition, Portland is far sunnier with 2341 hours of bright sunshine a year, while London's sunniest station in Kew Gardens reports just 1653 hours per year. Almost 700 hours sunnier! That 2340 figure is with outdated 1961-1990 statistics, no less - imagine how much sunnier it is today! The fact that it has more precipitation than London despite being 700 hours sunnier just goes to show that London is indeed a drizzly climate.

I once spent a week in England in mid-summer, and every single day was 18ºC and drizzly. This never happens in Portland thanks to our much lower latitude and warmer climate. In addition, I visited London in December of 2010... wow, was it cold!

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UK_Palms
16 minutes ago, SubarcticUK said:

 

Indeed! Here is the climate box for Portland, Oregon:

1612994707_Portland2014-18.thumb.png.e4955d1e0653dc4162010260366ae231.png

Look at how much warmer the spring, summer, and fall are than anywhere in the UK. Our average summer high is 10ºF warmer in Portland than it is in London using the climate box given in the first post.

In July of 2018 alone, we had 15 days above 90ºF/32ºC. That summer had 31 days above 90ºF/32ºC. Nowhere in the UK can come close to those sizzling summer statistics. Simply put, Portland is at 45.5ºN latitude while London is at 51.5ºN latitude. In addition, the precipitation follows a true Mediterranean pattern with almost completely dry midsummers and a winter wet season. In addition, Portland is far sunnier with 2341 hours of bright sunshine a year, while London's sunniest station in Kew Gardens reports just 1653 hours per year. Almost 700 hours sunnier! That 2340 figure is with outdated 1961-1990 statistics, no less - imagine how much sunnier it is today! The fact that it has more precipitation than London despite being 700 hours sunnier just goes to show that London is indeed a drizzly climate.

I once spent a week in England in mid-summer, and every single day was 18ºC and drizzly. This never happens in Portland thanks to our much lower latitude and warmer climate. In addition, I visited London in December of 2010... wow, was it cold!

This has got to be a joke :laugh2: :floor:

Your username is "SubarcticUK" but your location is Portland, Oregon. Yeah, alright then. And this is your first post on the forums. Definitely not trolling, right? :floor:

The best part was where you say that you visited London in December and "wow, it was cold!". Despite the fact that Portland and London are the same temperature during winter. In fact London is a few degrees warmer at night during winter, on average, and receives less frosts. And when you take the record lows into account, it's even more telling, given that Portland has seen -3F, compared to London's record low of 10F. Central London has never dropped below 15F actually. Compared to Portland's -3F.

Portland also averages waaaay more rainfall and snowfall during winter. I only average 18 inches of rainfall a year here, compared to your 40 inches a year in Portland. And that includes 5-6 inches each month during winter in Portland! That's insanely wet, even for a Mediterranean region in winter. And combined with those kind of winter temperatures too, which are arguably colder than London... well the wet-cold situation must cause quite a few problems. You completely forgot to mention that.

You can troll and talk crap about London's weather on a palm forum, but the bottom line is that London has lots of large CIDP's and Washies now. How many of these are you growing outdoors in Portland, fool... :floor:

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sipalms

@UK_Palms, some questions for you.

a) Even with the so called warming trend to a now 'Mediterranean' climate which you are now selling, do you think it is possible that London could experience a record cold spell in the next decade?

b) If London has now morphed magically from a dull/cool oceanic climate with a pathetic 1650 sunshine hours per year, to a hot summer Mediterranean climate, is it scientifically proven that this has just occurred in London, or can we extrapolate this amazing warming trend to every other city around the Globe?

c) where around the world have you travelled outside of your London 'Mediterranean' climate, e.g. have you driven around other subtropical or true Mediterranean climate cities like Los Angeles, Sydney, Perth, Auckland, Santiago, Cape Town...? If so, how do you think London compares as a Mediterranean climate from a visual perspective?

Edited by sipalms
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sipalms

Newsflash, looks as though the official British Tourism site site has a slight pinocchio problem as well...

Screenshot_20191014-192842_Chrome.thumb.jpg.5b65bf9d658c6675c80d48d0cf4f5bb5.jpg

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Palmsofengland
1 hour ago, sipalms said:

Newsflash, looks as though the official British Tourism site site has a slight pinocchio problem as well...

Screenshot_20191014-192842_Chrome.thumb.jpg.5b65bf9d658c6675c80d48d0cf4f5bb5.jpg

Once again, although being there you probably wouldn’t think it being there, western, coastal areas are on the borderline of humid subtropical according to the Trewartha Classification.

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cbmnz

This thread has been most entertaining to watch from the sidelines. Even though it has been heated at times, I congrat you all on defying Godwin's law so far.
My takeaways from this thread:

Yes, outside of the dead winter months Dec, Jan, the UK climate at least in the South is not as bad as some make out. With the some normally being expats - humans tend to colour facts in order to back justify their actions. There are heaps of UK expats where I live  and some are among my closest friends. And evidently it's not the worst place in the world to grow palms, at least two pinnate (Jubea and CIDP) are worth trying and well as several palmate.

While figures show some very favoured locations in the SE do get a respectable 1900hrs of sun and 2100 in a good year, what has London seen sunwise in the past 5-10 years? does anyone have the figures to see if there really is a shift from a rather modest ~1650 hrs longer term average?

Whatever happens, with only the narrow North sea between UK and the continent, there will always be the risk to palms, that the weather has a possible mode ( as vanishingly rare as that mode is) that is well cold enough to wipe out large numbers of them. But in other places Hurricanes, earthquakes and or/pests diseases can wipe out palms, so if you get 10-20 years of aesthetic pleasure then it's worth growing.

Is the winter of 63 the reason why there are not old tall CIDP throughout the UK? I'm sure plenty tried them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_1962–63_in_the_United_Kingdom

The settlers planted plenty out here when they came, hence 80 year old plus ones are common place. They are so common that they are taken for granted and removed when there is any excuse. Which personally I hate to see but do acknowledge they are high maintenance and feral pigeons are a real problem.

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petiole10
10 hours ago, redbeard917 said:

Interesting, thanks, good luck with yours and I hope to hear about other boundary pushers. I didn't mean to implicate you in my own editorializing nor dissuade you from visiting anywhere. I think Sabal bermudana might be worth a try since it's one of the northernmost species and also in a marine-influenced and maybe cooler climate. Unfortunately I have none to offer since mine isn't trunking yet, but anyone who wants some other Sabal seeds (minor or palmetto, and maybe Chamaedorea microspadix if I run across a seeding plant soon) feel free to message me. By the way, just a very uninformed guess, but I imagine a Washingtonia would have similar heat requirements as a Sabal and others, no?

Yes, Sabal bermudana is suited well enough, but is very hard to come by here, and quite a few people have no experience of seeding them in this country.

On the subject of taking palms for granted as mentioned elsewhere, in just the last couple of weeks I have seen two instances of quite majestic Canary Date palms trimmed to stumps. Presumably in one case this was because they had planted the palm too close to a front window and it was blocking out the light as it rapidly grew. In the other case there was no obvious reason why. 

So I think one good reason why palms are not more common still as they could easily be here in parts of this country , is as illustrated by these two examples, because people are ignorant of them and their requirements. Hence the cutting back of the one close to the front window, when some initial thought could have left more space, and the equally avoidable and needless cutting back of the other.

Even the local council have planted small date palms on the sea front in highly exposed places and the constant blast of the wind and salt combination has destroyed their foliage. They are still alive and trying to send up new fronds, but its easy to see the same thing happening again because they are not big enough to get properly started.  Its also nothing to with low temperatures at all - they clearly grow very well indeed in such locations, as demonstrated in places close by. With just a little bit of thought beforehand in the guise of some shelter offered by just a low wall until they get big enough to be able to quickly replace any damaged fronds as a result of the winter storms blowing in from the sea.

The clumping chaemerops also evident on the exposed sea front seem to fare better with the combination of wind and salt spray than the CIDP's. Slowly but surely better planting decisions over the last couple of years is yielding better and longer lasting results. But too much knee jerk planting continues. Coming just a street or so off the manin coastal strip and CIDP, Trachycarpus, Chaemerops and occasional Washingtonia and Butia are indeed doing well..  

But all these are thriving, not because of any boastful claims of the local climate, but simply that the conditions are increasingly suitable for them year on year. Notwithstanding though, that despite claims to the contrary on this thread, that summers like 2018 are still on the higher end of the envelope and not (yet at least ) the norm. There is no need to overstate statistics or find pics of blue skies and parched ground to create the impression of a hot and dusty Britain just to justify the existence of cold hardy palms in this country.

Those less cold tolerant listed on @Palmsofengland list provide interesting scrutiny and has made a potentially interesting topic - though again, no need to try to exaggerate the bandwidth of standard conditions to try to justify their inclusiveness. And certainly no reason for neanderthal arguing and one-upmanship with claims and counter claims.

Realism is the starting point of any plant buying decision in terms of suitability, not just applying to palms :)

 

 

 

 

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UK_Palms
6 hours ago, sipalms said:

@UK_Palms, some questions for you.

a) Even with the so called warming trend to a now 'Mediterranean' climate which you are now selling, do you think it is possible that London could experience a record cold spell in the next decade?

b) If London has now morphed magically from a dull/cool oceanic climate with a pathetic 1650 sunshine hours per year, to a hot summer Mediterranean climate, is it scientifically proven that this has just occurred in London, or can we extrapolate this amazing warming trend to every other city around the Globe?

c) where around the world have you travelled outside of your London 'Mediterranean' climate, e.g. have you driven around other subtropical or true Mediterranean climate cities like Los Angeles, Sydney, Perth, Auckland, Santiago, Cape Town...? If so, how do you think London compares as a Mediterranean climate from a visual perspective?

You're completely taking what I have said out of context. 

a) I have clearly stated that London is a temperate, oceanic climate. I am not saying that it is now suddenly a Mediterranean climate, let alone a "hot summer" Mediterranean climate, as you claim that I am implying. However, the southeast of England has definitely experienced gradual warming, especially during the summer months, as well as a decrease in annual precipitation. This is especially apparent in my location, just outside of London. In the years that we have a hot, dry summer (by our standards), it is certainly warm enough to qualify as a 'warm summer' Mediterranean climate. 2003, 2011 and 2018 were prime examples of this. And it is only going to get warmer and drier in my opinion, looking at the stats over the past decade. 

 

b) London has not "morphed magically from a dull/cool oceanic climate with a pathetic 1650 sunshine hours per year, to a hot summer Mediterranean climate". Again you are completely taking this out of context. There has been a gradual change in climate over the past 30-40 years, which has become more apparent and accelerated over the past 15 years, or so. In particular the rainfall pattern has changed here, with more droughts, especially during the summer and spring. This was evident in 2018 and 2019. It is probably due to a change in the jet stream, blocking low pressure, Atlantic fronts, allowing drier, warmer continental air masses to take hold. There is also a rain shadow effect in the south of England, particularly to the southeast of London. 

And London is not alone in western Europe when it comes to the climatic shift and warming trend. Other major cities such as Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam etc, have been equally affected. They have been recording record temperatures year on year, in conjunction with London. Paris broke it's all time record last year and is almost certainly a 'warm Mediterranean' climate most years nowadays. The only difference being that Paris gets far more extreme cold in winter, being on the continent. So CIDPs and Washie's can't really be grown there, whereas they can be grown in London, unprotected.

And the reason that the sunshine hours are quite low in London is because of it's high latitude at 51N. While the days are long and sunny in summer, the sunlight levels are admittedly very low during winter due to the short days and low angle of the sun in winter. This doesn't seem to be as big an issue as people make out though. I'll challenge you to find anywhere else this far north, or south, that has CIDP's and Washie's growing outdoors, unprotected, year-round. In my location, about 30 miles southeast of central London, I get around 1800 hours of sunlight annually and only 18 inches of rainfall, spread across 95 days on average. 

 

c) I have travelled to plenty of Mediterranean regions in Europe and I even lived in Perth, WA for 18 months. I can categorically say that Perth, which is a 'hot summer Mediterranean climate', still receives more rainfall than I do here, or in London for that matter. Many of these Mediterranean regions get absolutely drenched during the cooler half of the year. So the notion that London is wet and miserable in general, is nonsense. It averages similar rainfall totals to many Med regions. I also spent 5 days in Madrid back in June 2018, where the temperature did not exceed 32C. The day I arrived back in London, it was 36C here. That was during the 10 week drought and heatwave in southern England in 2018. 

When I stated that "London will start to resemble the Med IN TERMS OF PALM PLANTINGS", I meant specifically due to the amount of CIDP, Chamaerops, Trachy's, Washies etc being planted around here. They are appearing everywhere over the past decade and as more get planted, and the existing ones grow bigger, London's skyline will definitely change to mirror that of Mediterranean regions. Unless there is of course a freak record cold winter, with colder temperatures than London has ever experienced. I seriously doubt that will happen though. You know it. I know it. 

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UK_Palms
8 hours ago, sipalms said:

Newsflash, looks as though the official British Tourism site site has a slight pinocchio problem as well...

Screenshot_20191014-192842_Chrome.thumb.jpg.5b65bf9d658c6675c80d48d0cf4f5bb5.jpg

No, the extreme southwest of England definitely isn't 'subtropical', is it...

 

Tresco CIPD 1.jpg

tresco-abbey-gardens-1.jpg

AN7128365Abbey-Gardens-Tres.jpg

IMG_2745.jpg

Tresco Beach 1.jpg

Tresco Beach 2.jpg

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Vic

I don’t think there is any doubt that there has been a general trend to warming in the last 30 years. But it won’t take a record winter to take out all of the CIDP and Chamaerops ( which are in most of the pictures posted here) in London I’m afraid. I’ve lived and worked in and around London for 40 years and know where most of the decent size palms are or have certainly seen pictures of them, and they are good to see, but has anyone given it much thought as to why there are not any seriously big ones around like in the med? It’s not like palms are a new thing in London, in fact the Victorian’s were more crazy about palms than us, and I’ve seen black and white photos of a central London garden with 8-9ft trunked Nikau’s which are significantly more tender than CIDP I think it’s fair to say. All the big CIDP planted in and around London and even the ones on the south coast (excluding a few in Torquay and the famous one in Penzanace) were wiped out in the bad winters of 1981 and 1987. Nobody is disputing the low temperature records for central London but what the records won’t tell you unless you look deeper is that in 1987 for example there were at least a couple of months of laying snow, weeks of subzero temperatures and many days where temperatures did not go above freezing. The temps may not have gone below -7c in the centre of London but trust me, very few palms can cope with being frozen solid for weeks on end which is what wipes out all the big ones. 
 

This was not once in a lifetime event either, 1963 was colder than 1987 and I think 1947 was also bad, but I wasn’t around for either of these. 
 

I really hope I’m wrong, but history says that a few times in a 100 years we will get a cold one and all the palms we think are nailed on hardy become marginal. 
 

just saying. 

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UK_Palms
23 minutes ago, Vic said:

I don’t think there is any doubt that there has been a general trend to warming in the last 30 years. But it won’t take a record winter to take out all of the CIDP and Chamaerops ( which are in most of the pictures posted here) in London I’m afraid. I’ve lived and worked in and around London for 40 years and know where most of the decent size palms are or have certainly seen pictures of them, and they are good to see, but has anyone given it much thought as to why there are not any seriously big ones around like in the med? It’s not like palms are a new thing in London, in fact the Victorian’s were more crazy about palms than us, and I’ve seen black and white photos of a central London garden with 8-9ft trunked Nikau’s which are significantly more tender than CIDP I think it’s fair to say. All the big CIDP planted in and around London and even the ones on the south coast (excluding a few in Torquay and the famous one in Penzanace) were wiped out in the bad winters of 1981 and 1987. Nobody is disputing the low temperature records for central London but what the records won’t tell you unless you look deeper is that in 1987 for example there were at least a couple of months of laying snow, weeks of subzero temperatures and many days where temperatures did not go above freezing. The temps may not have gone below -7c in the centre of London but trust me, very few palms can cope with being frozen solid for weeks on end which is what wipes out all the big ones. 
 

This was not once in a lifetime event either, 1963 was colder than 1987 and I think 1947 was also bad, but I wasn’t around for either of these. 
 

I really hope I’m wrong, but history says that a few times in a 100 years we will get a cold one and all the palms we think are nailed on hardy become marginal. 
 

just saying. 

Important points to make Vic. I see where you are coming from, and as you say, it is definitely possible that a freak polar vortex could occur with near record breaking temperatures. In which case that would decimate the palm population. But what is the probability of that happening in 2020 onwards? 

I know in the 1700s they used to hold ice fairs on the river Thames, as it would freeze over completely for weeks on end. It seems the winter of 1795 was the worst ever during the 'mini ice age' period. I'm guessing the industrial revolution and onset of global warming has helped to mitigate that somewhat. More so here than anywhere.

It seems the other bad winters of 1947, 1963 and 1987 were progressively less severe than the previous 'bad' winters. So there is a definite trend of things becoming milder, even during 'bad' winters. And another 30 years has passed since the winter of 1987, where central London got down to -8C. I think the coldest temperature that central London has seen since then is around -6C, during that big freeze in 2010.

But looking at various pictures and Google Earth, we can see that the CIDP, Chamaerops & Washies had survived that 2010 cold spell. And since then another 9 years have passed where they have continued to grow well. In which case there have not been any significant enough cold spells to kill off the London CIDP during the past 30 years or so.

With the obvious progressive warming trend from global warming and the urban heat island, I can't see any significant cold knocking them out again. Although it isn't impossible. I mean last winter's low of -2C for central London is a sign of things to come. Lots of summer heat now as well for them to recover from any winter cold. 

Can't rule out a freak, once in 50 years cold spell knocking them out still though. As you say... :unsure:

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Palmsofengland

I’m not sure how accurate it is, but according to the website with data from the central London station, it hasn’t gone lower than -3C and it has been recording for something like 17 or 18 years.

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