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Palmsofengland

London’s palmy potential

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redbeard917

Y'all have mentioned growing the palms we often see in the hot US South, like Butia, Phoenix, Washingtonia and Chamaerops, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried palms from cooler climates, like Juania, Sabal bermudana or palms from other islands outside the tropics? What about cloud forest palms or other plants?

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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Thank you for using actual verifiable stats and not some nonsensical made up or extremely doctored fake data... indeed London on average, on its warmest day of the year, doesn't reach 90 in a typical year.  

 

2 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Thank you for a well written post! Indeed we shouldn't understate the climate either, certainly its winters are incredibly mild despite its poleward latitude! However, it is certainly not a mischaracterization to describe the UK as a dull, the entire country averages under 2000 sun hours year round with many places far far lower.

 

That is absolute nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to insinuate that London has a poor, cold, wet climate and no real summer heat. You've probably been looking at climatic data from the period of 1850-1950. The old data from previous decades is absolutely, categorically not representative of the modern climate here. Even the data from the 90's is no longer representative, due to the increasing urban heat island effect here and the warming trend in general. 

London and the southeast has reached 90F in all but one year since the year 2000. The 5 hottest years on record have all happened post 2003, going back to the mid 1800's. I have experienced countless days over the past 3 summers where temperatures have been well into the mid-high 90s. Even surpassing 100F this summer just gone, and nudging 99-100F in summer 2018, when I recorded 18 days of 90F+. So your notion that London doesn't hit 90F in a typical year is complete nonsense. On average, there is probably around 10 days a year that surpass 90F when looking at the data from the past 5 years. And regarding sunshine hours, most of the southeast of England recorded 2100 hours in 2018. Similar to that of Wellington, New Zealand. So not as dull as you make out, across the year. Although winters specifically are somewhat dull. 

You can try to downplay London's climate all you like mate, but you don't live in the southeast of England so I'm not sure why you are trying to lecture me on my own climate. I wouldn't lecture you about your own climate in NC, because I don't live there, let alone grow palms there. But there is a genuine attempt from you and 1 or 2 others on here to play up to the stereotype of London being dull, cold and rainy year-round, with no summer heat.

If that was the case... Phoenix, Washingtonia, Jubaea, Butia & various cacti wouldn't be thriving here, which they do...

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UK_Palms
1 hour ago, sipalms said:

Watch out guys....

UK weather forecast: Britain faces new Beast from the East in what could be one of coldest winters in 30 years

Sunday 8 September 2019 23:00 

Britain is facing a new Beast from the East in what could be one of the coldest winters in 30 years, climate experts say.

Researchers attempting to predict one of the longest-range UK weather forecasts say temperatures will be colder than normal during January and February 2020. The scientists forecast an average temperature of 3.9C for January to February 2020 in central England – which they say is 0.5C below the 1981-2010 average for the same period.

The team, led by Mark Saunders, professor of climate prediction at University College London, wrote in a paper: “This would rank 2020 January-February central England as the coldest winter since January-February 2013.

“It would also rank January-February 2020 as the seventh coldest winter in the last 30 years, and the 23rd coldest winter since 1953.”

...

The coldest winter in three decades could follow closely on the heels of the highest-ever UK temperature, recorded as 38.7C at Cambridge University Botanic Garden on 25 July.

 

They said the exact same thing last year, around October 2018, only for winter 2018/19 to be the mildest on record. Which completely contradicted the fear-mongering, long term forecasts that they predicted. I mean central London didn't even drop below 28F last winter. 

There's no way they can possibly determine forecasts and temperatures 3 months in advance like that. Not with accuracy. If they came out with this stuff in say December, it would be more plausible and likely. But not 3-4 months in advance of mid-winter. I'd take it with a massive pinch of salt. 

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sipalms
2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

And regarding sunshine hours, most of the southeast of England recorded 2100 hours in 2018. Similar to that of Wellington, New Zealand.

Where did you find that stat?

I looked for this from credible sources and came across https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/about-us/press-office/news/weather-and-climate/2018/weather-review-of-2018

This article was 4 days before the end of the year 2018 and sunshine was at 1575hrs. Let's round this up to 1600 for all intents and purposes for the 2018 year.

You're saying that somewhere in the UK southwest recorded 2100 hours?

That's 500 hours more.

Not sure how this could be but I'll keep an open mind.

I do know that here in New Zealand that kind of difference is extremely rare and only because of a mountain range of over 12,000 ft separating the two recording stations. One's on the humid west coast and other on the sunny dry east coast.

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B87
3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

 

That is absolute nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying to insinuate that London has a poor, cold, wet climate and no real summer heat. You've probably been looking at climatic data from the period of 1850-1950. The old data from previous decades is absolutely, categorically not representative of the modern climate here. Even the data from the 90's is no longer representative, due to the increasing urban heat island effect here and the warming trend in general. 

London and the southeast has reached 90F in all but one year since the year 2000. The 5 hottest years on record have all happened post 2003, going back to the mid 1800's. I have experienced countless days over the past 3 summers where temperatures have been well into the mid-high 90s. Even surpassing 100F this summer just gone, and nudging 99-100F in summer 2018, when I recorded 18 days of 90F+. So your notion that London doesn't hit 90F in a typical year is complete nonsense. On average, there is probably around 10 days a year that surpass 90F when looking at the data from the past 5 years. And regarding sunshine hours, most of the southeast of England recorded 2100 hours in 2018. Similar to that of Wellington, New Zealand. So not as dull as you make out, across the year. Although winters specifically are somewhat dull. 

You can try to downplay London's climate all you like mate, but you don't live in the southeast of England so I'm not sure why you are trying to lecture me on my own climate. I wouldn't lecture you about your own climate in NC, because I don't live there, let alone grow palms there. But there is a genuine attempt from you and 1 or 2 others on here to play up to the stereotype of London being dull, cold and rainy year-round, with no summer heat.

If that was the case... Phoenix, Washingtonia, Jubaea, Butia & various cacti wouldn't be thriving here, which they do...

I live in Central London and I am in full agreement with PalmsNC. You are fabricating data and full out lying to paint London as a warm sunny climate which it simply isn’t.

Edited by B87

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NorCalKing
On 9/24/2019 at 1:31 AM, Palmsofengland said:

That’s interesting, as I largely compiled this list taking into account the lack of summer heat and I know of specimens, of the majority of species you just mentioned, that are growing in the heat-deprived Bay Area. In London we’re unlikely to get any rapid growth, but the hope was that some high-altitude palms might withstand the long, cool year.

This is hilarious. I'm in the Bay Area, and average over 90° for months, and hit 105-110° (and above) every summer. Lmao. Man, you know nothing about CA climate, sorry. Umm, it's 90° here today and most the week in Oct. Carry-on this is fun!

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Palmsofengland
11 minutes ago, NorCalKing said:

This is hilarious. I'm in the Bay Area, and average over 90° for months, and hit 105-110° (and above) every summer. Lmao. Man, you know nothing about CA climate, sorry. Umm, it's 90° here today and most the week in Oct. Carry-on this is fun!

I already clarified this with Jim. I was referring to San Francisco and Oakland, which I think we can both agree experience very mild summers.

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NorCalKing
5 minutes ago, Palmsofengland said:

I already clarified this with Jim. I was referring to San Francisco and Oakland, which I think we can both agree experience very mild summers.

Sorry, missed it. Keep in mind the Bay Area has the most extreme microclimates probably on the planet. 1° of temp change per mile as you move inland during the summer. Coast 60° --> Inland 100°

My upcoming week;

 

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Edited by NorCalKing

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UK_Palms
31 minutes ago, sipalms said:

Where did you find that stat?

I looked for this from credible sources and came across https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/about-us/press-office/news/weather-and-climate/2018/weather-review-of-2018

This article was 4 days before the end of the year 2018 and sunshine was at 1575hrs. Let's round this up to 1600 for all intents and purposes for the 2018 year.

You're saying that somewhere in the UK southwest recorded 2100 hours?

That's 500 hours more.

Not sure how this could be but I'll keep an open mind.

I do know that here in New Zealand that kind of difference is extremely rare and only because of a mountain range of over 12,000 ft separating the two recording stations. One's on the humid west coast and other on the sunny dry east coast.

That article in question is concerning the national average sunshine hours, which lets say averages around 1575 hours across the board in the UK. But that's taking into account Glasgow in Scotland which only receives 1,200 hours a year, and Shanklin in southern England which receives 2,000 hours a year on average. Obviously there is a big difference between Scotland and southern England and it isn't a true reflection of the London and southeast area in question.

Southeastern England is statistically the sunniest place in the UK, especially the south coast, between Portsmouth and Hastings. Places such as Bognor Regis, Worthing, Brighton, Eastbourne etc, all have exceeded 2,000 hours in recent years. Even going inland to Chichester and the South Downs National Park, these places have clocked up 2,000 hours and average around 1,950 hours. I am much further inland, halfway between the south coast and London and I average about 1,850 hours a year here.

Given that rainfall has been progressively declining over the past decade, clear days and sunlight hours are consequently on on the increase in the southeast. As mentioned, I had a 10 week drought here in 2018 and only recorded 16 inches of rain. I'm not able to track my sunlight hours specifically, but I would hedge my bets that it was at least 2,000 hours here in 2018, due to the hot, dry, sunny, Mediterranean like summer. I didn't see a cloud in the sky during the first two weeks of July. And it was a dry sunny autumn/fall as well. Even compared to the wetter south coast, which experiences about 8 inches more rain than me on average.

Anyway, Shanklin on the Isle of Wight receives 1,923 hours a year on average. I have used the official Met Office site as a reference point. This number has been as high as 2,017 hours before.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-climate-averages/gcp0j39m4

Portsmouth, the largest city in southern England after London, receives around 1,950 hours of sunshine on average, but there isn't a Met Office station there. Again, it has clocked 2,000 hours a year before though, like Bognor Regis, Worthing, Brighton, Eastbourne etc. Even inland locations like Chichester and the South Downs National Park get close to 2,000 hours.

In fact Eastbourne has had 384 hours of sunshine in the month of July before. That's more sunshine hours than Los Angeles averages during the same month of July.

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UK_Palms
1 hour ago, B87 said:

I live in Central London and I am in full agreement with PalmsNC. You are fabricating data and full out lying to paint London as a warm sunny climate which it simply isn’t.

I have already stated that London is overcast and dull during the winter, with low levels of sunlight. I am not denying that. But at the same time it is not that cold either, given its northern latitude. Hence why a lot of species can still survive here.

But what people are arguing is that the summers are also cool and wet and not very warm, with low sunlight levels. I am simply saying that the south of England is quite sunny during the warmer half of the year and can be pretty warm here too, especially during the summer months. The PalmsNC guy, who you publicly agree with, says that London does not reach 90F on average most years. If you live in London, then you would know that is simply not true! At least not during the past decade or two. You know we have exceeded 90F countless times in recent summers alone. 

As a Londoner yourself, I am surprised that you can support such a notion by him, when it is being argued by someone on the other side of the Atlantic, who has probably never even lived here. You seem to play into the stereotype of it being cold, wet and gloomy year-round. Maybe because you travel abroad to hotter countries often and draw up comparisons. But we definitely get good levels on sunlight in the southeast of England as well as warm-hot summers most years now.

Its certainly warm enough and sunny enough for me to grow all these peppers and melons outdoors here, without them being under glass. Not to mention the outdoor cacti...

 

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sipalms
9 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

there is a genuine attempt from you and 1 or 2 others on here to play up to the stereotype of London being dull, cold and rainy year-round, with no summer heat.

No one is trying to stereotype, by the way.

Just that some are a little skeptical of a) some of the climate figures being claimed about southern UK, and b) The likelihood of heat-loving, sun-loving cold-and-damp-and-dark hating palms being realistic in your climate.

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greysrigging

Anyone using climate data stats must use recordings in official  Met Office  devices... anything else is disingenuous at best and downright dishonest at worst.... home weather stations are indicative of temps both highs and lows, but do not reflect accurate data.  Accurate comparable stats over long term come from recordings taken at the same site in official devices.  Otherwise it is impossible to compare or recognise trends and anomalies.

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John in Andalucia

Just to play devil's advocate..

22 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

And regarding sunshine hours, most of the southeast of England recorded 2100 hours in 2018.

This is a broad, sweeping statement in the absence of any official data to support such a claim.

 

20 hours ago, sipalms said:

You're saying that somewhere in the UK southwest (southeast) recorded 2100 hours?

Yes, it's true.

From the Royal Meteorological Society's State of the UK climate 2018:

"The UK's highest annual sunshine total was 2,171 hours at Shoeburyness, but several other stations in Dorset, East and West Sussex and Kent also recorded more than 1900 hours."

 

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B87
23 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I have already stated that London is overcast and dull during the winter, with low levels of sunlight. I am not denying that. But at the same time it is not that cold either, given its northern latitude. Hence why a lot of species can still survive here.

But what people are arguing is that the summers are also cool and wet and not very warm, with low sunlight levels. I am simply saying that the south of England is quite sunny during the warmer half of the year and can be pretty warm here too, especially during the summer months. The PalmsNC guy, who you publicly agree with, says that London does not reach 90F on average most years. If you live in London, then you would know that is simply not true! At least not during the past decade or two. You know we have exceeded 90F countless times in recent summers alone. 

As a Londoner yourself, I am surprised that you can support such a notion by him, when it is being argued by someone on the other side of the Atlantic, who has probably never even lived here. You seem to play into the stereotype of it being cold, wet and gloomy year-round. Maybe because you travel abroad to hotter countries often and draw up comparisons. But we definitely get good levels on sunlight in the southeast of England as well as warm-hot summers most years now.

Its certainly warm enough and sunny enough for me to grow all these peppers and melons outdoors here, without them being under glass. Not to mention the outdoor cacti...

 

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Yes, London is very mild for it’s latitude. That doesn’t mean it’s warm though. And you claim that london sees “countless 90F temps” is pure horseshit. London’s mean max is 88F and 86F in July. We’re also cloudier than the entire United States outside of some parts of Alaska and while we’re not that wet by precip totals we get many more precipitation hours than most places. Your claim that London is becoming sunnier is also objectively false. London’s summers have recently (over the last 15 years) been much gloomier than usual. August has had below normal sunshine for something like 15 consecutive years now!

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UK_Palms
19 hours ago, B87 said:

Yes, London is very mild for it’s latitude. That doesn’t mean it’s warm though. And you claim that london sees “countless 90F temps” is pure horseshit. London’s mean max is 88F and 86F in July. We’re also cloudier than the entire United States outside of some parts of Alaska and while we’re not that wet by precip totals we get many more precipitation hours than most places. Your claim that London is becoming sunnier is also objectively false. London’s summers have recently (over the last 15 years) been much gloomier than usual. August has had below normal sunshine for something like 15 consecutive years now!

You're the one spouting "horse shit". I mean you say August has had below average sunshine for 15 consecutive years, yet in 2016 we had our hottest and sunniest August on record. We had a crappy June and July, but August 2016 was a scorcher with numerous 80-90F temps which ran well into September. There was also a 6 week drought during this period, so I don't know how that can equate that to "below normal sunshine" hours for August 2016. That simply isn't true. 

If you are taking the average mean max from half a century ago, to make an argument, you are deluded mate. You need to look at the more recent recordings because that is relevant to now. It simply isn't the same climate that it was even 20 years ago. Rainfall has diminished massively here and the pattern has changed completely, winters are milder on average and we experience far hotter days during heatwaves. Why wasn't there any large CIDP's around London 30 years ago??? Yet today there's thousands of them popping up everywhere and growing strongly. 

According to the Met Office stats, London's highs for the past 5 following years were...

2015 - 97F

2016 - 96F

2017 - 99F 

2018 - 98F

2019 - 100F

Yet you claim the mean max is 88F because that was the average from 1950-2001. Do me a favour. That is hardly relevant or accurate today. And we are growing our palms today. Not 30 years ago. If CIDP's couldn't make it in London back during the 70s and 80s, well they sure as hell can today as they are everywhere and thriving now. That's my point.  

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petiole10
14 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

According to the Met Office stats, London's highs for the past 5 following years were...

2015 - 97F

2016 - 96F

2017 - 99F 

2018 - 98F

2019 - 100F

I don't know where you got those figures - but from what I have found:

 

2015 36.7 Heathrow 1 July

2016 35.2 St Hellier, Jersey 19 July (34.4 Gravesend 13 September)

2017 34.5 Heathrow 21 June

2018 35.6 Felsham (Suffolk) 27 July

2019 38.7 Cambridge Botannical Gardens 25 July

 

So whilst the years straddling them look accurate enough, the figures for 2017 and 2018 at least look a bit too high - and also based on the quite well accepted knowledge that until this year, the actual 100F barrier has not been closely challenged since August 2003.

Obfuscating over statistics aside, the most important and central point is that various cold hardy palms, including the slightly lesser cold hardy ones like Canary Date Palms can grow quite successfully in favored part of the UK (in and around London and the south most especially) is true and well supported. 

I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say that Canary Date Palms are 'everywhere' however.  In. realistic perspective its fair to suggest that Trachycarpus Fortunei, a far bit hardier than the date palm, has the (relatively) wider and more successful geographical spread further north than the Canary Date Palm.

Even in the south of the UK, the predominance of Canary Date palms (and other palms) is not visible to anything like the proportion in warmer mainland Europe closer to, say, 30/40N - and indeed more southern parts of the US where they appear amongst a majority of  various other palms that are commonly planted in streets and along main route ways in and out of major towns - and not just in selected domestic household back yards. This also takes into account the number that have been so unfortunately decimated by the palm weevil.

Perspective is everything :)

 

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John in Andalucia
On 10/8/2019 at 4:25 AM, B87 said:

London’s summers have recently (over the last 15 years) been much gloomier than usual. August has had below normal sunshine for something like 15 consecutive years now!

From the Royal Meteorological Society's State of the UK climate 2018:

"The most recent decade (2009–2018) has had for the UK on average 4% more hours of bright sunshine than the 1981–2010 average and 7% more than the 1961–1990 average."

I can't imagine London is becoming gloomier whilst the rest of the UK is apparently getting brighter - unless you voted 'Remain'. :lol:

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B87
17 minutes ago, John in Andalucia said:

From the Royal Meteorological Society's State of the UK climate 2018:

"The most recent decade (2009–2018) has had for the UK on average 4% more hours of bright sunshine than the 1981–2010 average and 7% more than the 1961–1990 average."

I can't imagine London is becoming gloomier whilst the rest of the UK is apparently getting brighter - unless you voted 'Remain'. :lol:

Summers have become gloomier. Take a look at the stats. Other seasons have become slightly sunnier.

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John in Andalucia
12 minutes ago, B87 said:

Summers have become gloomier. Take a look at the stats. Other seasons have become slightly sunnier.

August has become something of an anomaly across the whole of the UK in recent years, but to say, summers have become gloomier - which takes in June and July - is another broad, sweeping statement.

This topic is about the potential for palms in London. When you consider the year-round requirements for growing palms, and the fact that temperature and sunshine hours overall are on the increase, it really doesn't matter if August isn't as sunny as it used to be.

I've looked, but I can't see your stats that say August has had below normal sunshine levels for the past 15 consecutive years. 

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John in Andalucia

Concerning the UK:

In August 2019, there was an average of 6.7 sun hours per day, 1.1 sun hours per day more than in the same month in 2018, and 1.0 sun hours per day more than the 10-year average. 

UK.gif

 

On 10/8/2019 at 4:25 AM, B87 said:

August has had below normal sunshine for something like 15 consecutive years now!

 

I hope this clears up your misconceptions regarding '15 consecutive year' below-average levels of sunshine (taken from a 30-year average between 1981 - 2010).

Two-thirds of the last 15 years may have been 'below average', but again, broad, sweeping statements (and lack of stats) will easily catch you out.

 

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B87
28 minutes ago, John in Andalucia said:

Concerning the UK:

In August 2019, there was an average of 6.7 sun hours per day, 1.1 sun hours per day more than in the same month in 2018, and 1.0 sun hours per day more than the 10-year average. 

UK.gif

 

 

I hope this clears up your misconceptions regarding '15 consecutive year' below-average levels of sunshine (taken from a 30-year average between 1981 - 2010).

Two-thirds of the last 15 years may have been 'below average', but again, broad, sweeping statements (and lack of stats) will easily catch you out.

 

The "UK" is not London. We can have dreary clouds while the north gets sun and vice versa.

 

The official average for August sunshine in London is 204.7 hours. Here are the last 15 years of August sunshine:

2019: 201

2018: 182

2017: 168

2016: 201

2015: 168

2014: 184

2013: 199

2012: 183

2011: 144

2010: 111 (!!!)

2009: 168

2008: 104 (!!!)

2007: 193

2006: 120 (!!!)

That's 14 years in a row below average.

2006-2019 average: 166hrs

Absolutely pathetic imo and one of the main reasons it's so difficult to grow any remotely tropical species here. Most cities in the US, even in the colder northern states, have far far more sun hours than here. Even Seattle, a city infamous for being gloomy and wet, averages 281 sun hours per August.

 

Source: https://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?lang=en&mode=0&state=United+K&ind=03772&ord=REV&verb=no&year=2008&mes=09&months=

Edited by B87

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Palmsofengland
16 minutes ago, B87 said:

The "UK" is not London. We can have dreary clouds while the north gets sun and vice versa.

 

The official average for August sunshine in London is 204.7 hours. Here are the last 15 years of August sunshine:

2019: 201

2018: 182

2017: 168

2016: 201

2015: 168

2014: 184

2013: 199

2012: 183

2011: 144

2010: 111 (!!!)

2009: 168

2008: 104 (!!!)

2007: 193

2006: 120 (!!!)

That's 14 years in a row below average.

2006-2019 average: 166hrs

Absolutely pathetic imo and one of the main reasons it's so difficult to grow any remotely tropical species here. Most cities in the US, even in the colder northern states, have far far more sun hours than here. Even Seattle, a city infamous for being gloomy and wet, averages 281 sun hours per August.

 

Source: https://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?lang=en&mode=0&state=United+K&ind=03772&ord=REV&verb=no&year=2008&mes=09&months=

Obviously London isn’t the sunniest city in the world by any means, but I’m not sure that this factor would be hugely significant in precluding us from growing a wider range of palms, given that certain areas of the world (Southern areas of China like Guangzhou) are able to grow a huge array of tropical species, despite similar annual sunshine hours. Although it has an entirely different climate, I think it demonstrates that if the temperatures are right, all manner of palms should grow.

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UK_Palms
4 minutes ago, B87 said:

The "UK" is not London. We can have dreary clouds while the north gets sun and vice versa.

 

The official average for August sunshine in London is 204.7 hours. Here are the last 15 years of August sunshine:

2019: 201

2018: 182

2017: 168

2016: 201

2015: 168

2014: 184

2013: 199

2012: 183

2011: 144

2010: 111 (!!!)

2009: 168

2008: 104 (!!!)

2007: 193

2006: 120 (!!!)

That's 14 years in a row below average.

2006-2019 average: 166hrs

 

Your comment towards John is pretty condescending given that he has provided statistical evidence and made a perfectly rational comment/hypothesis. It seems you are hellbent on convincing people, as well as yourself, that London and the southeast of England is getting progressively cooler and receiving less sunshine hours. This is complete and utter nonsense which is more than obvious when you look at the wider picture and stats across an entire season, or year. 

You can pull up August 2018 for example, to try and cherry pick and forge an argument about decreasing sunshine hours in the month of August, but you fail to highlight the fact that June & July of that same year, in 2018, were also the hottest on record with a 10 week drought and record levels of sunshine. There was an enormous heatwave and drought during that period, before August gave way to wetter and cooler weather, which was desperately needed. I had been praying for rainfall for weeks at that point, after enduring a 10 week drought here. 

So just because the rainfall has generally been arriving in late summer in recent years, that does not mean that our summer's in general do not receive much heat or sun, which is what you have been implying. Clearly it receives way above average heat and sunlight early on in the summer, say June and July. Before making way to wetter, cooler weather in August. Unless it is like 2003, 2006, 2011, 2013, 2016 etc where the first half of summer was wet with below average temps, only for August to be super warm and dry with sunlight levels way above average. As John says, August has become an anomaly month. 

You need to look at the sunshine levels and heat across the entire summer and average it out across the 3 months, as opposed to just cherry picking August. A month that has seen extremely variable weather in recent years.

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UK_Palms

Here's some recent CIDP pics from around London...

It's just occurred to me, before posting, that all these pictures show clear, blue skies in the background. So much for London being rainy and dull... @B87

 

 

 

 

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Edited by UK_Palms
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UK_Palms

Lots of CIDP popping up in front and back yards, as well as parks in the southeast of England.

I'm also surprised at the growth rate of this Washingtonia over the course of 8 years, in a front garden just outside of London. It looks like a Filifera, which are slower growing than Robusta, but it has still outgrown the house in less than a decade.  Again, not possible for the Filifera to grow that well here if our climate was as wet, cold and low in sunlight as @B87 claims. 

I think it is clear that the climate has changed here in recent decades, favourably, for semi-hardy palms like Phoenix and Washingtonia. CIDP in particular are thriving here now, as are Washies. London will resemble the Med in a few years at this rate, in terms of palm plantings and eventual naturalisation. Lots of small Robusta's everywhere in south London in recent years. CIDP are self seeding here now too. 

10-15 years ago, these sort of exotic palms, at this size, were unheard of in London and the southeast. But times have changed. I wonder what London will resemble in another 10 years time...

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PalmsNC

London has had a string of unusually mild winters . In 2010 you had months averaging sub 40 highs no way those palms would tolerate it , weather will do what weather will. Could be this year next or another 5. Enjoy till then.

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sipalms
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

London will resemble the Med in a few years at this rate

This is an exaggeration if there ever was one.............

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

in terms of palm plantings and eventual naturalisation

Nope. Not a hope of naturalisation.

Believe you me... you want to see how far North you have to go here in New Zealand to get mild enough conditions with the right amount of moisture and lack of freezes (which kill seedlings) to have naturalisation of palms like Washingtonia and Phoenix and Archontophoenix. This is only seen in areas where there are thousands upon thousands of these palms growing on every street in the city/town e.g. Auckland or Tauranga.

And speaking from my experiences of driving around London and not seeing a single palm, London is definitely not 'palmy' nor will it be. Probably ever.

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cbmnz

Noticed lots of self seeded CIDP through the Te Aroha domain and get some good frosts there to -4C at the base of the mountain, inland side.  But at 37S the cold dips are short duration and lots of warm weather and rainfall too.

Edited by cbmnz

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UK_Palms
22 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

London has had a string of unusually mild winters . In 2010 you had months averaging sub 40 highs no way those palms would tolerate it , weather will do what weather will. Could be this year next or another 5. Enjoy till then.

I agree that we have had a succession of milder winters and warmer summers over the past decade, but one thing to note is that most of the palms in the pictures above were present before the big freeze in 2010, including the Washingtonia. This is evidenced on google maps/street view where you can go back to 2008 in most of the pictures, where those palms are present, but much smaller. Most being recently planted back then.

So the CIDP and Washingtonia pulled through that 2010 cold spell and went on to thrive around London and the southeast. Probably because it didn't drop below 20F in these locations, despite the extended freeze during that winter. But the lows are nothing too extreme here. I mean central London didn't drop below 27-28F last winter. There is definitive evidence that the CIDP and Washingtonia are surviving long term in central London now. 

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NorCalKing
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

I agree that we have had a succession of milder winters and warmer summers over the past decade, but one thing to note is that most of the palms in the pictures above were present before the big freeze in 2010, including the Washingtonia. This is evidenced on google maps/street view where you can go back to 2008 in most of the pictures, where those palms are present, but much smaller. Most being recently planted back then.

So the CIDP and Washingtonia pulled through that 2010 cold spell and went on to thrive around London and the southeast. Probably because it didn't drop below 20F in these locations, despite the extended freeze during that winter. But the lows are nothing too extreme here. I mean central London didn't drop below 27-28F last winter. There is definitive evidence that the CIDP and Washingtonia are surviving long term in central London now. 

I think you are getting a little ahead of yourself. While it may be true Southern UK is warming. I think you're really going way overboard to say the UK will look like the Med "in a few years". Do you have any idea how gradual climate adapts? As you remind us, at 51°N you could just as easily have an exceptionally cold winter at any given time. While I can appreciate you want to dispel the "cold, damp" UK perception, you go way overboard. Hell, reading your comments you have a better climate then here in hot and dry California at 37°N lol.

Chill a bit, climate will do it's thing. You're not in Caribbean.

Edited by NorCalKing
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UK_Palms
21 hours ago, sipalms said:

This is an exaggeration if there ever was one.............

Nope. Not a hope of naturalisation.

Believe you me... you want to see how far North you have to go here in New Zealand to get mild enough conditions with the right amount of moisture and lack of freezes (which kill seedlings) to have naturalisation of palms like Washingtonia and Phoenix and Archontophoenix. This is only seen in areas where there are thousands upon thousands of these palms growing on every street in the city/town e.g. Auckland or Tauranga.

And speaking from my experiences of driving around London and not seeing a single palm, London is definitely not 'palmy' nor will it be. Probably ever.

Firstly, it is hardly an exaggeration given the scale of palm plantings in recent years, and the fact that mature specimens are setting and dropping seed. And secondly, if you're going to quote me, quote the full sentence, rather than cut my comment off mid sentence, to try and conceive a point. I clearly said that "London will resemble the Med in a few years at this rate, in terms of PALM PLANTINGS and eventual naturalisation". I think the pictures I have attached in my thread evidence that. Lots of big specimens popping up everywhere now. So drop the ignorant act.

You have no idea what you are talking about frankly, mate. Much like PalmsNC, you live thousands of miles away in a different continent and climate, unable to see the full scale of palm cultivation in the southeast of England. Of course you have never travelled to parts of Kensington and Fulham, or to Brixton/Peckham in south London. Places where CIDP and Washingtonia are everywhere now, outside of the CBD. Or the CIDP on the south coast of England. Many of which are reaching maturity now and setting good seed. I have personally collected seed from the Southsea specimens which are about 20 years old, as well as a large specimen in south London bearing seed. Viable seed as well.

Chamaerops Humilis are also setting and dropping viable seed here. I have just successfully germinated some Humilis seeds that formed in my garden and I am outside of London and it's urban heat island. I have attached pictures from earlier on in the season of the Chamaerops seed. All it takes is birds to start feeding off the Trachy, Chamaerops, CIDP & Washingtonia seeds and you'll have them gradually become naturalised here. If they are quite clearly capable of growing to maturity here, setting seed and the small seedlings surviving the mild winters, then they are capable of naturalising. Whether you like it or not.

You can also see the effects of summer heat/drought as well... 

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petiole10
On 10/10/2019 at 4:34 AM, sipalms said:

 

And speaking from my experiences of driving around London and not seeing a single palm, London is definitely not 'palmy' nor will it be. Probably ever.

Yes - London indeed has palms, and proportionate to many parts of the UK they are certainly more commonly found - but London is not at all 'palmy' in the way that places in southern and some central parts of Europe are.

 I have a collection of about a dozen palms of different types but, as an exotics collector (and of plants in general) this doesn't mean it is representative of the norm within the location I live - which is one of the most favored parts of the country . I also still have to take precautionary steps to make sure they are trouble free in the winter - even in such a favored part of the country.  Many winters there is no such problem, but that doesn't mean the risk has gone away and it doesn't mean that conditions are anything like those of southern Europe which this thread, in places seems to be trying to make too many overstated comparisons.

Palms are common enough, in these most conducive parts of this country, which includes London, but pictures of palms surrounded by parched ground (which has historically never been unusual at all in warm summers ) doesn't make the reality any greater than it is, however much one might want it to.

As stated previously, this is a temperate, ocean driven climate that even with a background warming trend evident does not change the fact that palms still grow and survive the very best in the warmest most sheltered parts of the country.  The most hardy types such as Trachycarpus will survive well in most parts of the UK, but it remains a fact that less hardy species such as CIDP require some protection in any colder than average winter weather.  It might be possible to collect seed, and in that sense naturalize palms, but it remains the case that some kind of controlled assisted environment is required, even at times in the most favorable parts of the country. Which includes London.

A temperate environment by definition is not a Mediterranean one, so on that basis it is unrealistic to equate naturalization of a species between the two distinct types. The gap may be narrowing over time c/o background warming, and certainly the UK, especially the south, is becoming a 'warmer' temperate climate  - but direct comparisons cannot be made in terms of rearing and growing potential between the two for a species of plant such as CIDP that by definition, originated in southern Europe and North Africa (the Canary Islands) and is now trying to exist within a quite different latitude, and under quite different growing conditions at various times of the year. to that of their native home. The same applies to Washingtonia and other species of palm that come from quite different original climate and environment zones

 

 

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Really full garden

I say go for it ! to the zone pushers. There are many factors beyond just climate . It takes decades for the general population to accept changes in public landscaping. I would imagine people with private garden spaces in central London are minimal. This means any large scale palm plantings would involve public spaces and public funds.

I live in Guatemala. a tropical country where one would expect to see hundreds of palm species. Sadly this is not the case. Guatemala City has minimal palm plantings. Incredibly high land prices and scarcity mean that an absolute minimum space is devoted to landscaping. In general people prefer more temperate looking landscaping.

If you want to see where public funds and the general public embrace palmy landscapes go to Miami or Singapore.

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NorCalKing

Just to be clear, I'm no expert on UK locations. But, is this the part of the country that's considered warm/dry/palm friendly? If that's the case good luck.

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UK_Palms
2 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

Just to be clear, I'm no expert on UK locations. But, is this the part of the country that's considered warm/dry/palm friendly? If that's the case good luck.

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The ignorance from people like yourself is unreal. We have clearly just moved into a wetter cycle at present, and October/November is statistically the wettest period of the year for the southeast anyway. Just like most Mediterranean regions, we also get a lot of rain at the autumn/fall. This is nothing unusual, anywhere in the world. It doesn't mean palms cannot grow well here, or not grow at all for that matter. The past week or two has been particularly wet however, compared to average. But my Dactylifera & Filifera doesn't seem fazed, put it that way. 

The issue is that you refuse to look at the bigger picture i.e. - rainfall totals below 20 inches, a 10 week long drought during summer 2018 and an 6 week drought during spring 2019. Temperatures pushing 100F in both years, winter temperatures always rebound above freezing during the day etc. But since the southeast of England experiences quite a bit of rain in autumn/fall, you use that to dismiss the climate as being crap and terrible for palms. A hardly fair or balanced conclusion by any means.

I never said it was a particularly warm or dry climate, rather I have been arguing that it is a better climate than people make out, especially around London, Surrey, Sussex, West Sussex & Kent. The pictures I have uploaded show that the southeast is warm-temperate and allows a lot of palms to grow. Clearly we are not blessed with the sun and heat of California, but we are still growing decent sized CIDP and Washingtonia here. Even Queen Palms are taking off in London. So cut out the biased nonsense about the London climate, just because we happen to be in our wettest period of the year right now and heading towards winter. And because you have heard all the stereotypes and propaganda...

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sipalms
3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Even Queen Palms are taking off in London.

Can you upload some photos of established large in ground Queens? Interested to see.

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NOT A TA

How's the updated list coming? I've been following the comedic weather related banter for over 2 weeks but don't see a list yet. Curious to see what you might try there.

Most of the CIDPs in the pics of this thread seem like they're roughly the same age with 3'-8' trunk. Do you know if there is there a reason for this? Was there a hard freeze that killed off a lot of the palm population so then everyone started over again? Was there maybe a point where someone imported a lot of trees already trunking and convinced cities to plant them by offering them cheap or something like that?

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UK_Palms
49 minutes ago, sipalms said:

Can you upload some photos of established large in ground Queens? Interested to see.

I am reluctant to post as I do not own the pictures. But you are going on to purposely prove a point, so I will have to counter that to prove my own point. People are growing Queens here, but they are still young, just like the CIDP's and Washingtonia that weren't even being grown here 20 years ago. But now they are.

I will post my own pictures of my own Queens in due course. Seed grown of course. Not as big as this guy's though...

 

 

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UK_Palms
41 minutes ago, NOT A TA said:

Most of the CIDPs in the pics of this thread seem like they're roughly the same age with 3'-8' trunk. Do you know if there is there a reason for this? Was there a hard freeze that killed off a lot of the palm population so then everyone started over again? Was there maybe a point where someone imported a lot of trees already trunking and convinced cities to plant them by offering them cheap or something like that?

Nobody was planting or growing CIDP's in the 70's or 80's. They only really started taking on in the 90's when people realised they could grow on the mild south coast, or within the urban heat island of central London. But prior to that, they just were not present in the UK. It just didn't occur to people to grow them, or those that tried, failed.

Almost all of the palms in the photo's above were planted during the 2000's, so they are only around 10-15 years old at most. So they are still young, given their 150 year lifespan. The scale of climate change / global warming, combined with London's urban heat island, has allowed these palms to really take off and grow comfortably nowadays.

We could get a big freeze that wipes them out as people say, but I seriously doubt that. They've survived a good 15 years here and grown pretty well. And it's only getting warmer year on year here, on average. If anything, they will just continue to grow bigger, and more and more specimens will be planted. So palm coverage will increase dramatically over the coming years. As has been the case over the past decade. 

Some real large CIDP's around London and south coast now though, which have survived a good 2 decades or so...

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